James O'Brien reacts to Reform's latest racism scandal

We have people in British politics who are supine with admiration for both Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump, which is why it's time for the first time in a while to turn our attentions back to Nigel Farage, who has described Donald Trump as the bravest man he has ever met. I don't know that that's even comical anymore. The bravest man he has ever met. And he has described Vladimir Putin as the politician he admires most in the world. He tried in one of the leadership debates, I think, at the last election, he tried to pretend that he hadn't said that. But luckily, David Dimbleby was conducting that conversation, so he wasn't able to get away with his characteristic wriggling. And I think it's probably time for us to stop being so polite about this political party as well, isn't it? I've been increasingly wondering, I'd love to know what you think about this. How much damage do you think the phrase legitimate concerns has done to public discourse in this country? You remember for a very long time, you'd hear someone say something racist and you'd say that's a bit racist. And someone else would say, no, they've got legitimate concerns about immigration. And you sort of ask what their legitimate concerns were. And they'd say something like, oh, well, in my part of town, if you're an immigrant, you get a free shop. You say, pardon? What have we had on the show over the years? Free shops was the first one. I hadn't been doing this job very long. And I remember thinking, I'm 99% sure you don't get given a free shop simply by dint of having been born somewhere else. And this was even before Facebook ruled the world. So I don't know how these stories spread back in the day. And then I remember a woman telling me they got free cars. Did that call get clipped up? I think that might have been during the era of clipping up calls and going viral. You get a free car. Is it legitimate concerns? We've got legitimate concerns. And I used to sit there thinking, well, maybe they do. Maybe they do. So when the numbers start plummeting, everyone will relax again, won't they? Whether you're talking about people forced to cross the Channel in small boats because the Tories shut all the safe and legal routes, or whether you're talking about net migration figures, which understandably and inevitably rocketed as a consequence of Brexit. When they start plummeting, everyone will calm down, right? If you've got legitimate concerns, then when they are addressed, they will cease to be concerns. If they were legitimate. There it is. That's the jigsaw. And, of course, Keir Starmer's Labour government thought that they were or treated them as if they were legitimate concerns. I've got legitimate concerns. OK. All right. We're addressing your legitimate concerns. The numbers have plummeted. Yeah, but I'm still really angry. There's still too many. I'm still really. Well, hang on. How legitimate were your concerns in the first place? also you keep saying you don't care about legal migration you only care about illegal migration illegal migration is a drop in the ocean why is it the thing you own the only thing you ever talk about and why are your politicians coming out and saying there's too many black faces on the telly if they have legitimate concerns about current levels of migration how can there be too many black faces on the telly if you're only expressing legitimate concerns i think it might be one of those phrases that we've allowed to be unchallenged in our discourse because who honestly thinks that nigel farage has ever led a party that is not riddled with racism go on put your hands up the only people who would argue that nigel farage has never or not led every party he's ever led is riddled with racism are racists who aren't ready to admit it yet racists who love him that aren't ready to admit it yet um you may be aware that itv has undertaken itv has done some journalism there you go that's that's how you describe it bbc used to do this sort of thing that itv has done some journalism where they have spent time with reform councillors and reform candidates and talked to them and listened to them that that's that's the judge so i imagine richard tice is claiming already i think i may have seen a clip somewhere richard tice is claiming already that this is profoundly unfair how dare you listen to our candidates and report what they have said okay mate that's uh it's an interesting take there you've got on on a free media so itv have been spending time with reform uk candidates and councillors and a deputy mayor for example in in solihull and they have been listening to them and recording them and telling you what they have said I need to warn you in advance that although we have bleeped things and uh being very careful that there will still be profoundly offensive ideas conveyed and some of the language that we are permitted to broadcast will be pretty offensive as well and this is just the tip of the iceberg that the program will be broadcast on Sunday inside Reform UK and although 50 percent of me says this is up there with reporting that the popes are Catholic or bears shallalala in the woods because of that phrase legitimate concerns because of the insistence from Farage for the best part of 20 years that oh we vet our candidates and just because we didn't do a very good job of vetting them in the past doesn't mean that we're not going to vet them really well now we've got the best vetting process we I've done more than anybody else to keep the far right out of British and he's allowed to say these things it's extraordinary isn't it you see today is a day actually for recapping isn't it because how many people that told us Donald Trump was going to be fantastic or that everyone was exaggerating how awful Donald Trump was how many of them are exactly the same people that allow Nigel Farage to claim that his parties are not riddled with racists or that his vetting system is somehow successful or that it's not his fault when it turns out that he attracts racists like like moths to a flame how many of the same people responsible for cheerleading Donald Trump have also allowed that phrase legitimate concerns to pass into common parlance without actually asking people to define precisely what is legitimate about them. Because too many people with brown faces on the streets of Birmingham for Robert Jenrick or too many black people in adverts on the telly for Sarah Pochin, those are not legitimate concerns. Those are racisms. they are racist observations objectively racist i don't like that because it's brown i don't like her i don't want to see him because they are not white that's racist right it's got nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with racism and how scared are people of saying that still we haven't been scared have we we haven't fallen for this have we it's all a bit Catholic today's show isn't it with a big C bit of self-flagellation at the top worrying that we've been sort of gaslit into not saying what we know to be true. I don't think that's true. But who honestly tell me, this isn't the phone in. Well, maybe it is, but it would be very odd if anybody rang in. Who here is surprised to discover that Nigel Farage's latest political party is absolutely riddled with racists? Really? You're surprised? Oh, would you like to buy a bridge? You can go and have a look at it. It's just down by the Tower of London. It's an amazing bridge. It opens up in the middle. It's yours for two million pounds. I'll have it shipped to wherever it is you are by tea time tomorrow. who here is actually surprised i've got a really interesting question forming in my mind about what's happening here but i haven't actually got it on the tip of my tongue yet it's something to do with misdirection or misinformation because when ITV broadcast this program on Sunday there is a a presumption that we will be shocked and yet at the same time the least shocking thing anybody in the British media could report that Nigel is that Nigel Farage is leading a party absolutely riddled with racists so something has gone horribly wrong here whether it is a failure properly to scrutinize and challenge his ridiculous claims that he roots racism out of the party or that his vetting process is anything other than an exercise in cashing checks and rubber stamping applications or that he only ever acts when um the situation becomes untenable what possible reason can there be for this this this sort of ship of bigotry still being afloat that's the bit i don't quite get do you see what i mean what what i really want to talk about is optimism hope and the idea that two things number one the very positive response to Kemi Badenoch's rejection of Suella Braverman's racism that has seen her looking at the polling and the analysis of the polling i mean part of this so-called Badenoch boost is down to the media that brought you Brexit Boris Johnson Liz Truss austerity and Donald Trump cheerleaders now telling you that Kemi Badenoch is going to be brilliant I mean that is an extraordinary exercise in both self and public delusion but one thing the public have genuinely responded to is her um attack in her conference speech on Reform UK's racism and uh uh boost in the polls probably has more to do with that, or at least as much to do with that as it does with the nonsense being spouted by right-wing media about her being some sort of cross between Boudicca and Margaret Thatcher. So, that's good news, right? That means that right-wing voters are responding positively to a rejection of racism. Now, I want you to be honest with me. I'm obviously a kind of enormous cliché. Lefty, liberal, metropolitan elite, champagne socialist, all of that malarkey. I... I have been pleasantly surprised by that. The numbers aren't enormous, but they're significant. Right-wing voters attracted to a rejection of racism. Now, what is that the corollary of? That is the corollary of right-wing voters repelled by racism. It's the same thing in a way. You're not going to be attracted to a rejection of racism unless you are repelled by real racism. and that's why I want you to talk to me next and I'm playing you some of the fruits of ITV's journalism with that warning that it's pretty grim stuff, although I'm afraid entirely predictable, I don't think we get to sit here going, oh, some reform UK politicians have said some absolutely hideous things about people of colour and Muslims and black children who can genuinely claim to be shocked who's going to sit here going I can't believe I voted for them they're massive racists Cullum is shocked clips will be with you shortly but i think i don't see i'm a white bloke you see he might shoot me down in flames for this should we be a little bit more upbeat about this country's attitude to racist politicians have we allowed ourselves to be overly frightened i'm not frightened of these people i'm disgusted by them have we allowed ourselves to be overly disgusted is the presumed reaction and the ongoing reaction to this ITV investigation and the warm reception of of Kemi Badenoch's rejection of racism is it is it time perhaps to wonder whether we're a little bit better as a population than we've given ourselves credit for but i don't know if a white bloke can answer that question i don't think i can can i but you perhaps can if you're not white do you ever think that actually things i mean we've got some hideous people in very prominent positions and people like Suella Braverman will claim as she did on Question Time the other day that she can't be racist because she's brown um listen i think this might be one of those invitations to you from me to tell me to give my head a wobble and and get get get back on the um disgusted bus but i just i just these two stories suggest to me that maybe the racism is reaching a point where it's putting off more people than it's attracting. Oh, s***. Mate, if she was my daughter, it'd still be bad night on a Thursday. Come on. Hey, time for your bath. I'll wash it back through this time. Oh, God, we're all going to end up in the papers. I'm really sorry that I have to repeat this to you it's worth bearing in mind because i'm drawing parallels between racism and misogyny between Donald Trump and Nigel Farage Donald Trump has talked about how he would have dated his own daughter in a slightly different universe that man just said in public um in reference to a female reform candidate in reference to one of his colleagues if she was my daughter it would still be bath night on a thursday he's now resigned on personal and health grounds of course he has And listen, I think it's time we stop pretending that this is a surprise or that this is a balanced conversation or that, no, it's perfectly possible to be attracted to this party even if you're not a racist. Should we just start being honest about this now? And in order to avoid the misery of that conclusion, I'm asking you whether or not maybe, just maybe, the disgust that this will cause, coupled with the boost to Kemi Badenoch's fortunes that her rejection of racism entailed yesterday means that people like me maybe need to start being a little bit more upbeat about tolerance in this country i don't know and i do know that as a white bloke i don't get to make that decision i just get to ask you that question eli is in rochester what do you reckon oh hi james a long time listener uh first time call actually welcome yes um i think it's yes and no yes in the sense that it's good to actually hear the leader of a major right-wing party actually addressing the fact that there is racist connotations and pushing back against that and uh no because then we lose sight of the fact that it's my worth as a human being or even belonging to the country that is being discussed you know and that should never be something that is okay even if it's 10 people left that we're talking about you know like the inherent value that i have it's it's just but if someone is quite if someone is questioning that then it then it is not only necessary but it is welcome that somebody else challenges it even though and and this is why i made the observation a moment ago about my own ethnicity because i would have missed this point even though it's going to make you very uncomfortable to be the subject of that conversation you have to welcome the counterbalance to the bigotry yes absolutely i do welcome that but the caveat is that pushing back because it's her children does not mean that she understands the connotation of what actually happens on the ground in everyday life and the second part is that now as a black person i have to start thinking when people look at me you know for more than two seconds yeah what are they thinking are they judging my you know what thoughts do they have towards me when my kids interact with other kids i have to start thinking um is it okay for my kids to go to their houses and things like that she would never experience that and those things are not addressed so she's only talking about it they're saying, oh, they're English. But what about the day-to-day experiences for the everyday man? That's not an address. No, you're absolutely right. So how do you respond when you hear a bloke with even less experience, well, considerably less experience of racist ideation than Kemi Badenoch? Although I think she denies that institutional racism exists and I fully acknowledge that it exists. So, you know, it's a little bit more nuanced than you might expect. Forgive me, Eli. It's not as black and white as it might be. But when you hear me on the radio suggesting that maybe we need to, because here's what I think. Reform and people who have sought to appease them have thrown open the door to racism. They have allowed it to be publicly acceptable once again to be racist. You don't get fired for saying there's too many black people in Birmingham or there's too many black people on telly. That's hideous. I can only imagine how I would feel if that was me or more pertinently my children that people like Robert Jenrick and Sarah Pochin were describing or Suella Braverman was telling that they can't be English, that they're not English. And I have spent, we perhaps have spent the last few years thinking, worrying, noticing how many people flock to that maypole, how many people are now dancing around that maypole. the the the thing i'm flirting with today is the idea that there may not be quite as many people as we thought and that when the racism that is endemic in any organization that nigel farage ever leads becomes absolutely crystal clear as it is now that some people drawn to that this is where i'm going to sound either very naive or fatally optimistic some of the people currently thinking they might vote for him they will actually be put off um james be gentle with me eli be gentle with me i'll try about 20 to 25 percent of the population supports reform yeah but do they know how racist it is uh if they've heard of their policies and every single policy they have there's a thread of discrimination running through it. That's simply not true some of it is designed entirely to further enrich cryptocurrency billionaires based in foreign countries. Apologies And they are based in foreign countries Eli so there's nothing racist about that That's very true But if you think about that right that means about 1 in 4 to 5 people already subscribe to reform and there's the other our starting parties that other people support and then there's also the you know the slice of the conservative conservative that also have the discriminatory outlook right the biases then we're looking at about i'm being generous here 30 percent one in three people james so you're not deriving any optimism whatsoever from both the boost to Kemi Badenoch's political fortunes by her rejection of reforms racism but as you've reminded me perhaps not all racism or the expected um revulsion at the revelations regarding farage's racist army that will be in the ITV documentary on sunday that's what they should have called it actually that is correct yes i am not and because we i think a lot of people take um solace in the fact that we don't have lynchings and you know very uh how can i put it you know the the in your face racism and thinking oh we're not lynching people and we're not saying all black people but they don't understand that these biases needs to be spoken about and i don't want it to be platform and that just be the only thing we speak about no of course not but it is it is endemic i will share a little story with you actually i'm going to take the news and come back to you if that's all right is that okay because i think you deserve to share your story are there any reform supporters who will be repelled by the revelations which i mean are going to be very big on sunday but that certainly won't be the end of the story i don't think does that count as a mystic jim moment keith if i say these will not be the last um racism scandals to emerge among reform candidates and councillors i don't think that counts as mystic jim i mean that's a little bit like predicting that the sun is going to come up tomorrow but whether or not it's naive of me to think that there might be some people who are currently drawn to Nigel Farage's racist maypole who won't actually want to dance around it when they realize how many racists there are in the troop i don't know now that i've put it like that I am sounding naive and as eli in rochester was in the process of telling us i'm sounding even more naive when I suggest that things might not be quite as bad as I've spent the last few years believing Eli you were about to tell us a story yes um this is a little sad story actually um so i have a daughter who started um school two years ago she's in year two now and um in reception about six months in she came back and um told us one of her colleagues told her oh your skin is dirty you know in reception James one of her classmates classmates yeah no i can't can i i mean i because i just have the little girl in front of me now and i want to try and persuade her not me or you that that isn't necessarily as bad as it sounds and it did it used to happen because of ignorance but it can't be happening because of ignorance today james we live 35 to 40 minutes from london what did you tell her mate um sorry that's right yeah it was hard you know i didn't think i would ever be in that situation sorry that's okay we can move on i just i just yeah yes so so it was just um i had to tell her that you know you're beautiful you you know you you they love you there are 30 other kids in your class and um 13 the other class and how do you get along with them it was great i was like yeah so it's just one person's opinion And it was said aggressively, it wasn't said. Yeah, like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. It wasn't, oh, it was meant to hurt. Yeah, poor little thing. And what made it worse is that my daughter laughed the pants off this girl. Oh, I'm so sorry. And these are things that come from home, and at home these things are now being said with impunity and enthusiasm that was not there ten years ago. Even if the thoughts were festering somewhere deep inside and in the privacy of your own home you might say it but what this reform investigation shows is that they think they can say it in company now and if you're a reform politician you just presume that you can say it to your colleagues to your fellow campaigners to other candidates to canvassers presumably to the boss to everybody when you don't think there's anybody else around we're all racist in reform there you go and then that feeds into culture and that gets repeated enough And people automatically start having these connotations or these biases normalized. And then suddenly you ascribe anybody to, you know, anybody who looks brown or is not white to being less than. And there you go. And just one last thing, I know because you have to move on. I could see this coming because I remembered in the early 2000s, there was a clamor about, oh, there being too many black people in the country from Africa. And the moment the Brexit vote started And bringing this back to Brexit And the target was Eastern Europeans I turned around to my friend I said, you know what's coming next, right? Once we got out And the Eastern Europeans are gone It's going to be black people And once it's not the new Africans That cannot speak English It's going to become the people who are already here People on the telly The people in the adverts The people in your children's school the people over there the people over here but not you the footballers the footballers can't be english you're you're absolutely right you're absolutely right i'm sorry that's a terrible business and you you handled it beautifully but you shouldn't have to handle it, well you it's the least i can do, Ali is in Birmingham, Ali. What made you pick up the phone? Hi James, hello, I'm actually in that video that ITV News um put out, okay, I'm I'm the chap whose door he knocks on in the orange shirt and we had a good old chat, me and uh and it was very polite, it was very cordial and to see and hear what he said after he left my doorstep was quite a shock. Tell me a bit about the conversation that you had. Well, we, it was a long conversation and um i don't want to say too much because your producers uh have told me i've got to be very careful about what i say but the long and short of it is is we discussed a lot of different topics and in our in in the community in general there's a lot of um accusations to be said that Alan Feeney targets Asian households with regards to planning permission and stuff like that and that is what i put to him. Oh i see, okay and that is what was on tape so that he displays discriminatory approaches in his work as a councillor and deputy mayor of Solihull and you you put that allegation to him? Yes, okay. And you know he he almost had me convinced, James, I'm not gonna lie to you, he was very um personable and the scary thing is is he knocked, well he didn't knock on my door, I called him over and we had this conversation and this is the same person who 10 minutes later was saying we want to drag them out their houses well let's have a little listen let's have a little listen to what he said about people like you and your family shortly after you'd you'd closed your front door before we listen to it Ali that is one bold shirt mate cheers man let's have a listen so when a house comes up for sale white people need to be in there you almost need to f*** out out Muslim the Muslims you'd need a proper nuclear option like literally drag them out their homes stick them on planes and f*** them off to Pakistan which you'll never do in a month of sundays i'd be saying no more than one percent of british population can be non-white did he shake your hand he did he absolutely did and you know he came across as very likeable james and and i hate to admit that no no it's the point that's the point that's the point of course the bizarre thing is and this is one of the reasons why i hate what happened so much is me and my brother were texting the night before this came out yeah and i was saying oh well you know what alan feeney he's actually all right with me and my brother's like no he's not he's a racist and the thing that i hate most is now i have to admit that my brother's right go back to your brother and give him some uh yeah give him some kudos did you i mean from my point of view and you're obviously following local politics that that um that they're more closely than i am but i mean did you not subscribe i think your brother probably did that that reform is a racist enterprise i or were you persuadable that it isn't or wasn't no i i knew that they had severe racial elements to it sure but i am i am neither right wing or left wing i am you know i'm somebody other than somebody other yeah and it was a case of let's see what he's about and let's see if he can account for what he has said online because that's the only interaction i've had with him yeah i see And, again, he came across as very, you know, very good. But, you know, you look at people like Stephen Lennon, and they come across as, it's quite clear that he is in it for the money. Yes. And, you know, the attention. Whereas with someone like Alan Feeney, it is far, far, far more vicious and sinister because he is actually in a place of authority now. Yes. And he has these opinions, and that is what is scary. And do you have any confidence or optimism that when these sort of moments... Because I can tell you now what the defence will be. The defence will be, oh, well, they don't investigate anybody else or, oh, our vetting process is still a bit embryonic and it will get better. And I don't know why racists are attracted to me like moths to a flame or flies to a large pile of... Do you think when this stuff comes out, it will put people off? Absolutely not, no. Oh, man. No. Really? I'll tell you why I say that. Go on. is I know you're right if it's something that I've realized is people like myself um I'm a second generation immigrant my parents come here in my immediate family there are doctors they are you know we've got quite a successful family sure and you know I've realized is there is nothing that any minority in this country can do that will make us acceptable to racists nothing no matter amount of integration, there's always going to be a sticking point. So, for example, they say, oh, you know, we all congregate in certain communities. Well, we move out to make our lives better, to better areas while they're moving in. You know, we don't want them in there. There's never going to be a point where they turn around and say, okay, yeah, you know, we accept you. But things were better ten years ago. Yeah. So they can get better again. I think they're going to get worse until they get better, James. I really do. Now, on your previous call, I was talking about his his daughter and I want to make a very very quick uh anecdote he he spoke about how his daughter had this uh incident and you know and he didn't know how to handle it we me and my wife we've got a five-year-old and a one-year-old both girls and my wife's a secondary school teacher so my wife said to me one day she goes we need to sit down and we need to have a conversation with our daughter about racism and i was like well why why does she need to know about that she goes if we don't tell her that she's different or that she's a certain skin tone somebody else is and that was a conversation that i had to have with a five-year-old and i'm glad that we did because in her school a situation arose where another little girl didn't want her to play because my daughter picked a moana doll which is slightly darker skin and this child didn't want my daughter to play with her because of this darker skin doll and i'm glad that we had that conversation she was ready forewarned yeah forearmed mate i've got a crack on we'll talk again i hope thank you for that