Zelenskyy transforms from diplomat to war leader

No more Mr. Nice Guy. That was the message that Trump and Zelensky sent to each other this week, reaching a new low in their periodically fraught relationship. This latest episode started a week ago when Donald Trump lifted America's ban on Russian diesel exports ostensibly to lower the price of that precious fuel ahead of the midterm elections in which the Republicans are expected to get a thumping. The furious Ukrainians vow to continue bombing Russian oil refineries in an attempt to undermine Putin's war machine. Next, the Starlink-Starshield satellite cover that is owned by Elon Musk but operated in part by the Pentagon was partially turned off, leaving Ukraine blind to Russian attacks which have already killed more than 360 people, civilians, this month. Zelensky then huddled with European leaders in Brussels on Friday. He called them real leaders, by the way, prompting Trump overnight to waive the very sanctions against Russia for most goods and services that he had insisted on a month ago and that Congress had passed into law in August in honour of the deceased Senator Lindsey Graham, who was a staunch supporter of Ukraine. He must now be spinning in his grave. Meanwhile, the Kremlin this morning hailed the White House concession as historic. This raises a question that simply won't go away. Is Trump now openly on Putin's side? Well, he was asked this question as he stepped on his chopper, Marine One, yesterday. You called Ukraine a disgrace for attacking Russia. You want Zelensky out. Have you forgotten that it's President Putin who started the war? Well, you know, I know the details, okay? And at some point I'll release the details. But I don't care anything except for one. I want that war ended. 25,000 soldiers on average a month are being killed. Last month it was 32,000 soldiers. and I think the two leaders, I deal with both of them, I think they want that war ended too and I think it's going to end. That's all I care about. I want that war to end. Indeed he does. While over in Brussels, President Zelensky was huddling with those real European leaders. He was asked a question and then the former comedian responded with a shrug, a wink and some comic timing not lost on his audience. Do you think you are being treated as a scapegoat for his own problems? this is my answer thank you so much anyway have we reached a turning point not just in the war that has been haunting Europe for longer than World War One but also in whatever is left of the West let's speak to Alec Russell this morning foreign editor of the Financial Times who interviewed President Zelensky in London earlier this week Alec it's good to have you on the program morning Matt so tell me first of all what impressions Zelensky made on you so i spoke to Zelensky on Wednesday evening, at the end of the day that he'd spent in Britain, he'd seen the King, he'd seen Andy Burnham, and he was on his way to Brussels. And this, of course, was most of the way through a week in which he's faced relentless pressure from Donald Trump, and a week in which Donald Trump has put no pressure on Vladimir Putin at all. And I think, I don't know, it just seemed pretty clear from the moment Zelensky walked into the room with me and a colleague that he'd finally lost patience with equivocating he'd finally lost patience with with the policy that European leaders have been telling him to pursue for a year or so since Trump took office again and and and he thought it was time to speak his mind so it was no more Mr Nice Guy basically well he wasn't he didn't lose his cool he wasn't ranting he he uh and he was sort of quite, well, not cautious in what he said, but quite cool. But I think he just thought, I really think he thought it's time to speak truth to power, as they say. And what he seems to hope is that actually, there are a large number of Americans who don't agree with Donald Trump. So he kept saying things like, I don't think that the Americans are going to like the idea of their government doing business deals with a man who's pummeling my country with missiles and drones every night. I think that's his hope. And of course, you know, at the bottom of all this is a calculation and probably a miscalculation that by importing, in the first instance, 300,000 barrels of Russian diesel, you're not going to lower the price of diesel in America ahead of the midterm elections. Well, exactly. I mean, that's a tremendously good point. This seems incredibly short-termist by Trump. I mean, you heard him on that clip that you just played, Trump being asked about his view about the war. And what he said was, I mean, I think he does believe this. I just want that war ended. But of course, just wanting the war to end is not the point. It's how it ends that matters for the world. And ultimately, how it ends is what matters for America, too. Indeed. Let's just listen to the first. Of course, it's a great interview and it's a long interview, but we've only got time for two clips. Let's listen to the first clip of Zelensky speaking to you. That is, block is out. Today Zelensky said to my military people, after they again killed, killed today after such massive attack, I didn't hear messages from President of the United States because they denied, maybe a little bit later we will hear. And then in Lutsk and again in some other cities, they attacked again, killed a lot of people, just civilians, all of them, just civilians, no military people, just civilians. And of course, the civilian toll this month is particularly bad. I think it's more than 360 that have been killed. So, you know, and if you've been to Kiev as well recently, I mean, you know, there are nightly and daily sirens. These Russian jet powered drones are incredibly damaging. And of course, if you turn off parts of Starshield and Starlink, then there's no way of finding out whether they're actually coming your way. Yeah. So, I mean, the crucial thing about that particular clip was that for three days at the start of this week, Zelensky, he heeded Trump's request to hold off from attacking Russian refineries. Because Trump had asked at the weekend, he said he called a unilateral ceasefire, which neither Russia nor Ukraine seem to know anything about, a unilateral ceasefire on hitting oil refineries and energy infrastructure. Zelensky actually said to himself, OK, once again, I'll fall into line. America's our big partner. And so he did that. But then when I asked him about this, that was the moment that he broke the news that enough was enough. He was going to start hitting Russian oil refineries again. for the simple reason, he said, that he's had this ceasefire and Russia hasn't. So he stopped hitting Russian oil refineries. And then in the three days that he wasn't hitting Russian oil refineries, Russia continued to pound Ukraine. I mean, it just made no sense to him. It was demonstrably, ludicrously unfair of America to make this request. And in the interview, he also got quite personal about Donald Trump and his affinities, didn't he? Yes. So this I thought was possibly the most interesting bit of all, actually, Matt, because you've interviewed many world leaders over the years. And you know how it goes. You know what you're trying to do. You're trying to get some news out of it. But you're also trying to get a bit of texture out of it, out of the interview. And it can be quite difficult because world leaders are world leaders for a reason. They've learned when to be diplomatic and when not to be. And I actually assumed when I asked Zelensky about Trump and Putin and so on, I actually assumed he'd sort of say something like, you know, well, it's not for me to say I have my view, but, you know, I think, you know, we should talk about the war or something. But instead, when I asked Zelensky to explain the nature of Trump's relationship with Putin, he just didn't hold back. He suggested that Trump had a particular affinity for autocrats. I think President Trump is such a man that he speaks about it openly and loudly, that he loves such people and he respects such people. Because for him, I don't know, people who can be leaders 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, it means they're very strong because you can hold the power. so I think it seems to me I don't know money, we're rich, this is the richest man this is the first rich man Putin, the second, Musk I think that I'm not comparing them I think they're in how to say it, in one restaurant not street food not street food I mean I guess Trump would actually think that's a bit of a compliment wouldn't he? Just finally for this section And I want you to stay on the line, Alec, when we bring in our next guest. But just do you get the impression, though, that he's got fire in his belly, that he's prepared to weather yet another terrible winter? I think he has. I mean, in terms of the terrible winter, I was in Odessa just just 10 days ago. And it really is going to be very, very hard for Ukraine, because, as you said earlier, that Russia has got these newish weapons, these jet powered drones that are very, very hard to shoot down. So, as Zelensky said to me the other night, he says the war just, it changes each month or so, one or other of the sides has the advantage. And he was basically implying that Russia had a slight advantage now because of the jet-powered drones, but he felt that in time, you know, maybe in a month, Ukraine would have got the answer to the jet-powered drones and the pendulum will swing back a bit. But I think absolutely Zelensky is bracing himself for a terrible, terrible time. And he's basically decided it's just time to be the war leader and not the diplomat. There's nothing to gain from relentlessly doing what Trump asks him to do. I mean, it's risky because of the dependence that Ukraine has on American intelligence. But it's a gamble he's decided to make. Thank you, Alex. Stay there, please. Let's bring in Mariana Bezula. She's a Ukrainian member of parliament and member of the permanent delegation to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. Mariana, thank you very much for coming on the program. You just heard Alec Russell there and the interview that your president gave to him. I mean, how difficult is this moment for you? You've got winter approaching. The Russians have been bombing your infrastructure, your energy infrastructure. Civilians are dying in unprecedented numbers because of these drones. And at the same time, Donald Trump seems to have gone rogue. You see, I was hearing actually your discussion for several minutes and overall impression is not about only just like this discussion, but what is going on like we are in TV show and people around the world is going to look at it all. it's a new season of Ukraine how terrible winter will be will you survive this winter and will be this season number you understand yes we are not the season you understand not the season and world can stop this war many times but now we have only the new escalation new murders new murdered children and world is just looking what is the next season here and the next season is the election in US and the situation when present American president is less far from Russia comparing even before I mean I think if you right Right. I mean, it's like if during the Second World War, the US just started to help Hitler. It's the same. It's the same. But that's I mean, that's what you know, that is a charge that European leaders are making very quietly. They would never say that in public because, of course, European leaders also in a difficult position, not being able to rely on America as they used to, while at the same time having an aggressive Russia on their doorstep. And I can see why you think that we might be making light of this, but we're not. I think we take it very seriously in this country and in the rest of Europe. I just wonder whether you think that the European leaders, who he describes as real leaders, are now finally getting the message and doing the stuff that they haven't been doing to help you win. You see, we are thankful for the dynamics of Europe that understanding is going on, and especially in your country But the challenge and the temp of changing world is far more further comparing what the reaction is. Even speaking about rockets anti-ballistic programs and rockets for Patriot but we need to think broader Why only Patriot? Why for five years there is no alternatives which are cheaper and more challenge and more uh suitable for present war and it's a lot of such examples a lot of such examples that uh the reaction should not be diplomatic it should be more and more practical because it's practical not only for Ukraine it's practical for Europe to defend itself and when there is a lot of episodes when uh Russia just challenging and send drones into Europe and you know there are a lot of episodes of this and there is no reaction almost there is no cases that these drones were destroyed. They destroyed some even some houses in Europe and it's all about practical challenge and practical reaction that the war is going on and we are inside we are already inside the third world war It's just not like in the second or the first. And people during that period, they did not call this like the first or the second world war. It was just big war, and now it's a big war. And very, very frustrating what is going on in the U.S. I'm a politician, and I'm not president, and I can be less diplomatic in that way. I'm thinking that the U.S. is under deconstruction now. And actually, American people should show if they can reverse this situation in just a couple of weeks. And of course, during this couple of weeks, by finishing, we will have experience and we will have experience a lot of changes from the U.S. leadership. Because they don't want to influence Russia. They want to influence victim to force us to surrender. Okay, that's really interesting. Alec, quick response from you to that. Well, yes, the midterms in two weeks' time is obviously an important moment. I fear, though, that in terms of what this means for Ukraine, is that even if Trump's Republican Party has a very bad night at the polls, I don't think it need necessarily make any difference to Trump's policy towards Russia and Ukraine, because he can lose control of one or both houses of Congress, and he still retains control of foreign policy. Indeed, he may even feel unleashed, Matt, just to focus his attentions to the world stage. The other thing, just on Europe and Europe's leaders and so on, this is a real, real bind to them. I mean, if we were talking in four years' time about a situation like this, by that stage, Europe would have spent a lot more on defence and would be much more ready to go it alone without America in defence of its borders. Europe's not ready for that yet. It cannot afford to lose the American umbrella, the intelligence and the weapons. So this is a real, real nightmare for them. It is, and just on a final note, I mean, we know that in four years' time, you know, it's very possible that Marine Le Pen, who's quite sympathetic to Putin, might be president of France as of next April. The AfD might be in some kind of coalition government in Germany, and Alice Weidel, who I spoke to the other day, their leader said very clearly to me, We need to make friends with Vladimir Putin. So Europe itself is also changing.