From Al-Qaeda to Hamas: Jesse Petrilla on Defeating Islamist Extremism

They want to turn us into this stone age society under an Islamic caliphate. We've got to stand up to it. Otherwise, we're going to be conquered before we know it. He said, "My children will fight you and their children will fight you. If it takes a thousand years, we will win." How do you defeat an enemy that A is not afraid of death and B believes that their struggle, that their jihad will actually outlast their mortal time on earth? And welcome back to the brief insights from the inside. We are joined today by Jesse Petrilla. Jesse is a former army captain who served in Afghanistan and he is the author of this book, If It Takes a Thousand Years: From Al-Qaeda to Hamas, How the Jihadists Think and How to Defeat Them. Jesse, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, there's a lot to talk about. I want to start off by by mentioning what our friend Charlie Kirk of Blessed Memory once said and he became quite controversial for saying this which is Islam is not compatible with the West. And when I read that quote I was thinking Islam as a political or religious philosophy. Sure. Obviously this this might offend many many Muslims. What do you make of this idea that Islam is not compatible with Western civilization? >> Well the reality is that the jihadists have a fundamentally different mindset and they are fundamentalist Muslims. I mean, they're they're the ones that say it, not me. And so, they very much quote elements of the Quran. And that's what this book, If It Takes a Thousand Years, does is I just say what they say. I I it culminated my research on the jihadist mindset with interrogating over 400 captured Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees in Afghanistan. And I I'll just give you some examples of just how different they think. One of the first interrogations that I did was or that I facilitated rather was with one of the the Taliban leaders who half his face was blown off when I walked into the cell. And it's like I'm looking at this guy and I'm like, man, what what what causes somebody to keep fighting in shape like that? And I I needed to get his fingerprint for something. They didn't they couldn't write their own name. So I I reached down to get his thumb print and he didn't even have a thumb. And I'm like, "Okay, what when did this happen?" And I started talking to the guy. It happened fighting the Russians uh several decades earlier. And here he is. I mean, if something if I lost my pinky, I'd be collecting disability and I'd be done with the war. But these these guys are volunteers. And that's what's so crazy. Uh there was another guy that was brought in, a 15-year-old would be suicide bomber that was captured. And I mean, I was just shaking my head at how sad that was that kids are strapping bombs on them. But the that that wasn't the youngest. One of the guys that I was working with said a six-year-old suicide bomber was brought in. And it's like somebody's strapping a bomb to these kids. It's a very different mindset. >> Yeah. >> And they the the biggest difference is that they think long term. That's the title of my book. If it takes a thousand years, those were words that were told to me by a captured Taliban member who I said, "Hey, we've got you caught. What are you What are you doing? Why do you keep fighting us?" and he said, "My children will fight you and their children will fight you. If it takes a thousand years, we will win." So they think long term we don't. >> So let me ask sort of the elephant in the room here, which is Zoram Dani. I look at Zoram Dani and I see him as someone who's campaigning with drag queens, someone who's talking about youth transgenders, yet at the same time his detractors will call him an Islamist. His detractors will say that he wants to import, you know, jihadi ideology onto American culture. Is there something that I'm missing? What is it about someone like Zora Mamdani that is animating so many critics within your circles that this is someone that the American people should be fearful of? >> Well, I think the jihadists operate very deceptive. There's actually something that they adhere to called tea. And I don't know if Mandani is a a jihadist or not. Time will tell, but socialism is the doorway that the jihadists use. And there there's a lot of useful idiots on the college campuses these days. is I mean there's one uh clear reason to point to which explains how the Islamists are gaining ground in America and it's that they're they're getting to the youth successfully. I mean you can look at Mamani's election as that example. You can look at the pro Hamas protests. I mean this guy refused to denounce Hamas. He refused to condemn what what we saw on October 7th. I mean there's things that that that he's said and done that indicate where he stands. And you can look at you can judge people by who who they surround themselves with and and you can you can clearly see he's got a lot of jihadists around him. But you don't need to see look very much further than our own college campuses to see the success that the Islamists are getting uh at reaching the youth. I mean you saw it firsthand at Harvard and thanks so much for standing up and actually suing the university. That's outstanding. I mean, we really need to hold the feet to the fire of of these universities that promote this sort of thing. But looking at the protesters, you can see the vast majority of attendees at those things at the pro- Hamas protests are not even Muslim. They have no stake in the Gaza conflict. And yet, these so-called liberals have been convinced to join in supporting one of the most anti-liberal causes on the face of the earth. And I think it's just they're simply ignorant about the who they're getting behind. And I mean, let's face it, the most youth today and frankly in the last 80 years has really felt a lack of purpose. Uh we've had life pretty easy and youth are very easy to manipulate. And so people are giving them a purpose. And these people are nefarious people. A lot of it comes from Iran. It comes from other jihadist elements out there. And they're giving the kids a cause to get behind. And they're marching for something that is suicidal. >> And as one of those former useful idiots, let me start off by apologizing. I'm trying to do better. I I I I want to stick with this theme, though. Let's go to Dearborn, Michigan. Dearbornne, Michigan. 55% of Dearbornne, Michigan's population has Middle Eastern or North African ancestry. Uh making it the first Arab majority city in the US. The city has the largest per capita Muslim population in the United States. The Adhan, the call to prayer, is blasted five times a day, every day in Dearborn, Michigan. If I'm a constitutionalist and if I'm someone who believes in freedom of religion, why are so many conservatives or detractors bothered by a city like Dearborn, Michigan, what is something that perhaps we're missing that you seem to be talking about in your book? >> Well, I think it's again it goes back to the long-term game. I mean, we're like frogs being boiled in a pot. The way the jihadists operate, they only carve the world into two sections. They they call it Darl Harb, which is the land of war, and Darl Islam, which is the land that's already under Sharia law. So, we're obviously not under Sharia law yet, and I'll I'll continue to fight against that. I'll always be free or I'll be dead. That's the way I look at things. And so, the uh the the So, we're part of the land of war that is yet to be conquered. And so, the way they work, it's very generational. They they even I've got a quote in the book from from Gaddafi uh where he he said you know we're going to conquer Europe one day without bullets without swords we're going to outre them is what he said these are his words and and there's several other quotes from other other leaders in the Islamic world as well. There's a reason why the so many Islamic nations in the the Middle East are not accepting refugees. They're pushing them into the West deliberately because it's part of this long-term plan. And unfortunately, Americans only think maybe two to four years in the future, which is our reelection cycle. I mean, there's not a whole lot of us thinking long term, but our jihadists are. They're fighting this thousand-year war. So, I'd like everyone take a second, picture your hometown right now as it looks in 2025 and then now picture it a thousand years from now. Has anybody have you ever done that? I mean, nobody does that. Nobody thinks about that. And we've got two possible futures. Star Trek or Stone Age. And I'm a big Treker. I love Star Trek. And I I don't want it to look like the Stone Age. But unfortunately, our enemies have that vision that we don't have. and they want they want to turn us into this stone age society under an Islamic caliphate and and we've got to stand up to it otherwise it's it's we're going to be conquered before we know it and there's one thing I'll add to that that I did hear in Afghanistan a lot that was a very telling phrase that's very common among the mujah hadin there where they would say you have the watches but we have the time >> one of the things that I found really fascinating in your book and again if it takes a thousand years definitely encourage my my listeners to get a copy was the depiction of young Muslim men who are actually born in Western European countries, Germany, the UK, France, and unlike their parents, they are first generation of their host countries, yet nevertheless, they're actually more radical than their parents who were born in Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, and elsewhere. So, I guess I'm curious, number one, how do you actually measure radicalism? And then number two, how is this possible that we have young Europeans who were born into these countries yet nevertheless hold more terrorist sympathies than their actual parents? >> Well, it comes down to two things. Europe doesn't have the 14th amendment. I think the 14th amendment needs to pre be protected at all cost, and that's birthright citizenship. Uh when somebody's born an American, they're an American. They're not looked at as any different than anyone else. And if you're walking down the street, nobody's going to look at somebody and be like, "Oh, he's part of another tribe." Ah, I mean it's it's very different in the rest of the world. Unfortunately, in French society, in German society, in many societies in Europe, they really carve themselves along these ethnic lines. And unfortunately, people on the left right now, if you see that, they're really pushing the same thing. They're trying to focus on ethnicity. They're trying to get away from this melting pot that we have that we're so blessed to have in America. And I I talk about this in depth in my book in the latter third of it where uh we need to enact policies that promote assimilation and and the way to do that is is I mean you can go across the board with things whether it's printing official documents in English whether it's it's promoting English as the language of the land. I mean there's different things that we can go through to help people assimilate and and two it's education. uh the the the biggest problem with growing fundamentalists these are the factories these are the terrorist factories are the madrasas the Islamic schools have have managed to permeate much of the world particularly in the Middle East but but also in Europe I mean there's the a lot of peninsula money a lot of from the Arabian Peninsula comes into spreads throughout the world into these Islamic schools out of the the 400 plus interrogations that I participated in have captured Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hakani, terrorists. Uh I I didn't find a single one of them that did not go through one of these Islamic schools. In fact, Taliban is actually the Pasto language word for students. Talib singular is student. Taliban students. These are the students of the Islamic schools. And that extends to Europe. It extends to America. When you have parents that may be well-meaning, if even if they came here to the West from an Islamic society to escape a lot of the BS that's going on over there, uh they they think, "Oh, I want my kid to have an Islamic education." So, they send them to these Islamic schools. Unfortunately, the Islamic schools have been taken over by these fundamentalists who are really, really focusing on a lot of the more fundamental elements of the Islamic religion, and they're indoctrinating the kids. I mean, the Taliban grows that way. That's how they do it. and many other Islamic or Islamist rather organizations. They that's how they grow their cause. They're trying to get to the next generation. >> There's so much you just said to unpack. Let me just go to an earlier point you had mentioned about this ideological battle because there are battles being waged not merely on the battlegrounds of Afghanistan or Yemen or Iraq, but the battlegrounds being waged in the mainstream media on institutions of higher learning in the United States. What can the average American be doing to help fight in this battle? because they're not serving in the US Army, although they certainly could, but they are going to college, they are consuming media. What is something that they can be doing to tackle the problems that you're articulating? >> Well, we've got to focus on the next generation. I think it's it's obvious that we've fundamentally failed to teach the post 911 generation about who the enemies of America are. I mean, the the reality is where 911 happened in New York, look what's going on there right now. And so, it's absolutely terrifying if we don't do something about it. I mean, our youth in America and in the West in general are future leaders. They're the future members of our Congress, the future senators, future presidents. We need to start looking at them like that. And and the Islamists and other nefarious elements have done a very good job at taking over education. I mean, it was the Soviets were trying to push communists in into the teaching profession in the universities in the 60s. And now it's pro-Islamists that the Iran is funding these programs and other other fundamentalist jihadist groups in the world are fund funding different uh schools and and endowments. And so there's three things that we need to focus on on the on the solution. We need to educate ourselves. We need to educate others. And we need to adopt this long-term thinking. We it's it's it's hard to change a society, but the reality is that if we don't start thinking long term, they are and they're going to conquer us. And so by educating yourself, I mean, if you if you're listening to this, you're probably already aware, but ask yourself, are your children aware of what's going on? And if and it's probably not. So get them books on this subject. I mean, the ammunition in an ideological battle is knowledge. And so of course I'm partial to if it takes a thousand years available on Amazon on audiobook, paperback and elsewhere. Uh but also read firsthand experiences from former Muslims. Those are great like Hers Ali or Was Sultan or Mosav Hassan Yusf the son of Hamas. I mean there's also Robert Spencer if you want a more uh a more uh I would say I mean that guy's a scholar on the religious aspect of it. I pretty much I just I try to steer away from the from from the religious elements and I leave that to to Robert Spencer. I just say what they say. So it's really hey they're saying that it's the religion that's pushing it. If you want to dig deeper into the ideology that then then he's a great resource. >> You know you're reminding me when you keep saying I'm not saying it they're saying it. You remind me of Dr. AOT Wil who when she talks about Hamas she always says the problem with Western media is they don't treat Hamas like the adults they are. So when Hamas says, for example, we're going to conduct October 7th again and again and again, and you have pundits in Western media saying, "Oh, no. What they really mean is this, and this, no, no, take them at their word because they're adults." How would you respond to critics who say that Islamism against the United States, 9/11, for example, is a response to American foreign policy, is a response to American interventionism in the Middle East. And really, if America would just stay out of, you know, Middle Eastern affairs, if America would just focus on domestic issues and stop meddling in the Middle East, then we would we wouldn't have these problems. really it was America who brought it on upon themselves. How would you respond to that argument which we're hearing a lot especially as it pertains to the war in Israel Gaza? >> I think they should tell that to Charles Martell in the year 732 when the jihadists were trying to take over Europe and defeated by him at the battle of Tours or in 1683 at the gates of Vienna. I mean it's not something that started in 1948. In fact, Thomas Jefferson wrote uh articles when he before he was president, he actually was ambassador to to France and he went to research why our ships were being sunk in the in the early 1800s uh by by jihadist pirates. And so he went to Tripoli, which which he wrote a letter back that that you can find. It's it's amazing. He says, he reports back, the reason why they're sinking our ships is because that we're infidels and we fail to submit to Allah and and this is the the duty of uh of every Muslim is what this is what he says that the the leader reported back to him. And so that was in I I forgot the specific year, but it was like 1806 or something like that. But that's where the Marine Corps hem comes from because we had to fight them from the halls of Montazuma to the shores of Tripoli. So I mean this was this was whatundred 40 some odd years uh before 1948. So I mean this is this has been going on a long time. They've been fighting us for a thousand years. They're going to keep fighting us for a thousand years. So we've got to do something about it. And that starts with educating ourselves. >> Yeah, that's usually what I tell the detractors as well. Just Google the Barbarie Wars. I want to ask you one last question uh uh with the time that we have. As you already said, you asked a senior Taliban commander, you're caged, you're locked up, you're injured. How long will you continue to battle the West? And this senior Taliban figure looked at you and said, "My kids will battle the West. My kids kids will battle the West if it takes a thousand years," which is of course the title of your book. So, how do you defeat an enemy that A is not afraid of death and B believes that their struggle, that their jihad will actually outlast their mortal time on earth? How do you combat an enemy like that? Well, I'll tell you, the enemy jihadists can't get an inch if no one's there to give it to them. And so, we just have to instill a sense of national honor in the American people. I mean, it's as if our life depends on it because it does. I mean, we need to remember we're really fighting for America. We're not fighting against the jihadist. We're fighting for freedom. And so, it's not about defeating them. It's about protecting what we've got. And and that's what we need to understand. That's what we need to drive in our kids. And we need to instill that sense of national honor in our children every time, every every chance we get. >> Jesse, this has been a fascinating conversation, incredibly insightful. I want to thank you for your time and everything you're doing to expose the dangers of Islamism here in the West. >> Thank you very much.