Babies Not Bullies | How to understand and respond to toddler aggression

behavior is tools this tool cannot be allowed aggressive behavior cannot be allowed to be as successful for you I need you to drop that tool and pick up a better one but like that's the level of morality involved at this stage which is basically zero yeah we don't allow anybody to hurt other people I don't let people hurt that precious body I don't let you be the thing that hurts that's my job as the adult to say I'm the one who's in charge of saf here and no matter what you want I will be the obstacle to you hurting other people we will find other ways for you to get what you want or I will help you with the feeling that you don't get to have what you want right now which is super hard [Music] feeling Lane something happened the other day and this topic is going to be right on the money uh two little toddlers in my life that I love very very much neither of them are my children okay mhm one little toddler was being aggressive with the other little toddler in what way uh like pushing him away hitting him not wanting his toy whatever the moms don't really know each other I am very close to both of the moms like like longtime friends of both of them love them a lot and so the one kid is the aggressor right he's being very aggressive the other kid is not being treated very nicely yeah and the mom of the other kid says to me separately gosh that that kid's really a bully huh he's such a bully and I immediately got defensive which is so funny because I am obsessed with this mom who said it and love her kid but I was like oh he's not a bully's not a bully he's he's like awe her I was like I've actually known him since he's a baby he's so sweet and she's like oh he was being such a bully and I'm like oh but he's not a bully and she's like no but he he is like basically like he is he was we were laughing about what a bully he is and and and as she's saying it I'm like I'm like oh but he's he's not like he he might be in a stage but like he's not a mean boy and she's like well my kid has never been treated that way and and okay so then I'm really realizing like basically what happened in the moment was I got sort of elevated which I wish I didn't I wish I was able to be like oh yeah that probably felt huge to you you've never had your child be treated in a way that this was happening but what felt huge To Me is This Little Child who I've known since he was a baby and I know that he is not if we're going to label bully he is not a bully he is a 2-year-old who was trying to interact with another little toddler anyway I like felt embarrassed afterwards I first to the mo to the one I was like I'm sorry that I like got so big about this because well did you get big about it what did you I think what I wish I would have done is I wish I would have just asked some more questions because I think what she meant was that that didn't feel good to her what what I wish I got to was like what was that like for you sorry that that happened and then be able to say he's actually not a bully and you know what's worse is like your little one might do that eventually too and it is so freaky like it is to be the mother of the aggressor is very shocking and very elevating Beyond like I'm just elevated in that moment I'm feeling inside like for this child and he's not even my kid yeah I'm just feeling like no no no don't label him bully like don't don't call him mean boy because he's actually just boy learning he's just little two-year-old anyway what I realiz after because then Sean was there for and like later I was like Sean I feel kind of embarrassed and he was like you don't have to be embarrassed he's like that is a weird thing he's like just to be clear what you actually did in the moment was just say no he's not a bully I'm trying to figure out what you're embarrassed about cuz I'm I'm over here ready to yell it's basically I appreciate that it's basically that I did it to the point of not letting this woman Express her full experience and I wish I just would have been like tell me more about your experience cuz her experience was I brought my child to the park he was mistreated he was pushed he wasen toys from over and over and again and while she's trying to tell me that I'm stuck in defending this other little boy's position simply because it started by calling him a bully which that whole thing I'm like no no no well you were triggered because an adult spoke aggressively and judgmentally about a baby child about a baby that I care about and I care about her kid and I have the foresight of knowing like how this works and I know that eventually kids just go through experiences where they don't treat other kids good and so I know like oh man one day you're going to be in that one and some other mom might anyway you know why I bring this to you is because there are some complicated emotions happening around aggressive children and then around being the kid who has been on the receiving end of aggression and what's funny is now I have three kids and so I have in my little array of children both the one who tends to be aggressive and the one who tends to be uh on the receiving end of of whatever kind of aggression it is and so I've lived through both of those feelings also inside our shop here because we do these gatherings for moms throughout the week I watch it play out in real time these little sweet babies turn into Toddlers and some of them become particularly aggressive and it is a weird dynamic between moms and the other day one of them was talking about like yeah at the park they now call my son like a mean boy but it's just cuz he's big for his age he's actually very young but he's big so he comes and he he pushes or he takes something but but I know Lane well enough to know all of this stuff about toddlers now to be like he's not being me he views that thing as like the goal and this child as the obstacle and I only know that because you've explained it so anyway guys my name is Jessica hover and I care a lot about this topic and this podcast is h a really good one so who are you I'm Lane deing cherland I also care a lot about this topic and this is very good enough a podcast from very good Mothers Club and today we are going to talk about toddler aggression it's a such a tricky thing to talk about I don't think this is going to be a super long episode I don't think we're going to delve super deep I'm going to try to address like the top layer of questions all of which are brought up in the stories you to just kind of give us like a an arc here I would like to do something more in depth about that so the at some point something something so at the end I'm going to give you guys I'm G to ask for some feedback from you some involvement from you in like what would best serve you on this topic but first let me let us go on a journey together and then let us see where else we can go at the end totally and moms we just want you to feel really seen like inside of it if you see yourself as the mom of the kid who's mean lately mean in air ques or the one who's been bullied lately air quotes as well because both of those really stink yeah um we just want you to feel seen and then give you some like tools and tips and love yes so uh I just said in in the episode that we did a little bit earlier today I made a point about how you guys are not professional moms you are just women who had babies and are trying to figure this out part the journey to become a professional with children has a lot to do which any anybody could go get paid to do offer professional childcare but for me the value of being professional in this field one of the big initial things that you have to learn how to do inside is to stop making assumptions about the motivation of a child we project a ton well for just people are constant we're projecting almost our whole reality is just a projection of something else in our subconscious you know so like we're endlessly in adult circumstances being like oh she didn't text me she must have felt really oh [ __ ] that thing I said in the text before is why she didn't text me and I right we we've got all we're constantly imputing motives I don't think that's the right word but like placing our ideas of motivations into other people based on what we've experienced in the past or based on how we feel about ourselves and uh ideally we grow out of that more and more each passing year as just adults but we must we must if we are ever to be fair to children learn how to stop doing this to them because they are not small adults they are not feeling like we are feeling they're not processing like we are processing they're not doing things for the same reasons that adults would be doing things and we frequently look at children especially when they're being emotionally manipulative or physically aggressive as and we we look at it as though they are doing that for the same reason that we would be doing that and in that case it's terribly alarming yeah it is it would be terribly alarming where I to choose to bite you that would be insane what a crazy thing for another person for an adult to do to a friend or never thought this through horrific in movies when you want to show that someone's a really dirty fighter they bite somebody right like it's feral it's intense it's kind of disgusting if I were to bite you and break your skin you could get an infection like it's there's an animal thing to it it's so it would be a wild way for an adult to behave oh my God right and a lot of people watch a toddler by another toddler or even hear that their toddler has been bitten or that their toddler bit someone and they're like you mean my toddler encountered a wild animal you mean a Savage is loose in your classroom or are you saying that my child is an absolute animal like what we put the this weight of what it would mean for adults with developed prefrontal cortexes who know what but it feels like who can who can empathize with another person who know about respect and dignity like we we put all of that weight into these actions of tiny tiny children who just got here and we go oh my God your child is a biter ew and what does this mean about the parents because that was the other thing at play in that conversation in the beginning is what it felt like as The Listener was an assumption about the toddler and about home life but I actually know the home life very well and so it was like wait you're wrong like whatever that feeling is 16-year-old is at school beating the [ __ ] out of people frequently you go oh uhoh where are we getting these idea why is this the solution what is it about you 16-year-olds that your level of emotional disruption is so high and your ability to regulate your physical response to your insides is so low right is an adults problem yes definitely that's such a good way of describing it yeah if it grown you're two when you're two you're not 16 right when you're two you're just trying [ __ ] out for the very first time um so so yeah we got to start with I don't know why that kid did that they did a thing we have got to bring down and and I I bring up the professionalism Gap here because I do this as a person who has seen hundreds and hundreds of small children I've watched them all I've seen them all I've seen every version of biting I've like been there and have an emotional distance from it it says nothing about me that your child in my class but somebody else's child in that class I identify with that in no way right it reflects on me in no way if there's a lot of biting going on in my class and I'm not dealing with it that's we got a we got a culture problem in my classroom but I'm I am not a bad teacher because there's no you know so there there will be a level of emotional how you will be heightened emotionally more than I will be the goal is not for you to be professional about your child right at all no but but draw some here's here's an offering from way over here where professionalism is my goal where a level of Detachment is essential for me to do my job super well pulling out our immediate judgments on a child's motives is so so needed you guys you guys you guys you guys to call something mean even when it hurts someone is like something is not mean just because it hurts somebody meanness is a thing inside where you look at another person are capable of registering them as another person and choose to do a hurtful thing to hurt them otherwise it's not mean it's not mean actually bullying is targeting another person repeatedly and specifically and pretty publicly usually usually there's a humiliation aspect to bullying it is repeated it is is targeted and specific it does not happen in the course of one day right you could be aggressive with somebody for one day and not be that person's bully it's not bullying bullying has a definition meanness has a definition harm is a neutral thing you cause harm in a lot of ways I could accidentally cause you a lot of harm sure I can hurt someone in a ton of ways I can purposefully hurt them which is mean or they could be collateral damage on my way to doing something else which is thoughtless not okay needs to be needs to be tended to and is not mean yeah you know and some of it I'll add is like developmental right because like my son was at the playground the other day and there were some five and sixy olds treating him in a certain way taking a snacks filling it with sand throwing rocks at his head calling him names yeah it was it was really terrible and so the way it played out Eloise like saw it because Wilson was crying for help and then got Sean involved and the parents were involved now that's a bit different because these are a collection of older children older being five six you know intending talking about it with a plan so then you would be like hey guys that was that was a mean way of treating someone that was not a nice way of treating someone that's entirely different from a one two threeyear old stealing a ball pushing someone over biting them also aggressive also causing harm and we we stop harm we don't allow harm oh yeah that's a great point but not then mean like you are so mean that was so mean you can teach a kid like hey hey I don't know I'll talk to Wilson hey buddy when we treat people like that that's not a nice way of treating our friends that's actually a mean way when we hurt them oh they don't like that that does not feel good we want to be nice friends we want to be gentle with our friends whatever you can teach them words but you you don't then turn around and deduct from the situation like that is a mean child with mean parents or whatever yes yes it's an age thing uhhuh and as a person who has like really done the work of of being professional about this feel Fury when I hear an adult label another child okay as a bully or as a mean person or as a whatever when I hear an adult say that about a tiny child that's an adult problem to me who that's an adult problem to me that's why this conversation is important because I don't think people realize that it's so separate it's so it's the few years difference between one 2 three year olds versus five six seven year olds really so much changes yeah yeah so uh just to clarify about toddlers toddlers we're defining them here as being about one and a half to about three it's kind of that zone and we're going to talk about toddler aggression today uh a little a lot of this will still move into the three-year-old space not much beyond that cool um just always want to give you guys the parameters around like when I'm speaking from expertise like this is how far we take it and past that I could give you some opinions but like we're putting a cap on what I know for sure toddlers are looking for the most direct route from where they currently are to where they want to be I want to have that thing I want to play with that person I want to go home I want to sit over there what is the most direct route to get what I want and they don't care they don't know to care they couldn't possibly consider what is the best route they're looking for the straightest route and and toddlers do not have the ability this develops in that three-year-old year to know that another person has a perspective for them they're the only person oh it's really interesting that other things kind of look like me but I'm the only person right and then there's my mom and my dad and those are kind of secondary but even you like they don't know that you have feelings they don't think about they cannot think about the fact that like in the way that my body would hurt your body would hurt it's not available to them yet these are they're encountering for the first time the experiences that slowly over time make it start to Dawn on them they're using these experiences to build the circuitry in the brain to sort of like realize at three-year-old like oh my God you are a person like I'm a person and what and then they get super interested in each other but your toddler is naturally correctly egocentric their job right now is to learn that they exist and what it's like to be them so that that's the level of like rough material that we're using right now all they want is what they want you can only give them the motive of trying to get what they want a lot of the time what they want is sweet tender snuggles cool a lot of the time what they want is to discover something new they're curious they want to like a lot of me getting what I want is beautiful and amazing and super exciting but it's all just me getting what I want and so another person is an interesting thing to explore yeah like a giant pile of sand as an interesting thing to explore and yet you get such interesting responses from them and it it it does take on a little bit of this like Psychopathic tendency sometime where you're like what you did this terrifying thing because you wanted to you just wanted to know and as an adult with full mental capacity oh my God it's really like whoa and and I put a cap on that that's just my feeling that's not true about them it's not true about them at all that did this antisocial thing you can't be antisocial until You' developed the capacity to be social right so your toddler wants a thing and there's a person who has that thing the clearest solution to that is to eliminate that person and have that thing that's mechanical and clinical and straightforward and unemotional now we don't allow anybody to hurt other people I don't let people hurt that that precious body I don't let you be be the thing that hurts that's my job as the adult to say I'm the one who's in charge of safety here and no matter what you want I will be the obstacle to you hurting other people we will find other ways for you to get what you want or I will help you with the feeling that you don't get to have what you want right now which is super hard feeling well super hard feeling but it's not it's not available to a toddler to consider that another person might be hurt or harmed it is the adult's job to identify that to a toddler so that they start to notice not to make them feel it deep in their soul they cannot I'm telling you now clinically they cannot sometimes they will see another person cry and begin to cry because whoa they're having a weird an experience will happen I'm not saying you'll never see them respond emotionally to another person but those are very early glimmers of what is to come yeah to set the expectation that a toddler would care for someone else is a uh it's an uneducated you may them participate ining Andre so as they get closer and closer to being sure great love it not drawing a line for you here that you're never going to see this from your kid but in terms of what they can do and what would be mean for them yeah and even what would be kind for them they may do a kind act it's not really coming from a place of kindness they're slept up in the moment and trying something and it will become kindness later as they enjoy the social and celebrate it because they also are going to figure out like I like doing the things that we celebrate so when I treated this other kid in this particular way everyone around me said that was awesome so I'll do that again but that's so good I was thinking while you're talking one thing that happens to us as as moms specifically is we kind of identify so strongly with our kid it feels like our heart's walking around outside our body we've heard people say that so I wonder if what happens when our kid slaps another kid across the face this happened recently in our shop what it can feel like to the mom is like almost almost like I just slapped my friend's child in the face and because it's it's happened now more than one time where I'll be like at a park or something and the kid is aggressive and the mom just bursts into tears and it's not the mom of the kid who was hurt it's the mom of the kid who did the hurting and it's it's just this like Rush of emotion of like we just did that like I somehow was just a part of what happened to that little kid and I love what you're saying because it really requires some separating and realizing that developmentally your child is right on track they're they're having to learn these skills and they cannot yet use that type of logic that you use which is we don't want to hurt each other so you're having to be the barrier and really separate and did your son or daughter just hurt your friend's child yes so sorry that happened that was so hard for all of you and not I mean child sorry little one who just got hurt how do we help protect you all from this happening again you're not a bad mom and to the mom who is just like oh my gosh my child just got smacked in the face what do I do you don't then have to like shelter your baby from all of that this is just very much a part of the stage they're in in learning how to relate to each other yeah it's it is just the stage they're in and a a big part of like the stage they're in is that they are themselves as they walk away from you and exist out in that world they are in fact differentiating from you like that's part of the developmental stage is that they're learning that they're not you and there is there an in in it's an invitation and it's also really a requirement of you to take that as an opportunity to let them to you inside not withdraw from them but know that yes this is you going out and being someone who's separate from me I'm not you and here with you I'm so here with you I'm so connected to you but I am not you and standing on the outside looking in like I have got to Advocate to you on behalf of your child that like if you want them to grow a strong sense of self learn how to be a person out there there's a big piece of that that is Mom saying like yes you are a separate person with a strong sense of self yes you are you and I'm not you and when you do things or when things happen to you I am not unshed in your experience I am here and present and so focused and so connected on it but it's not me you're not me and um we talk about my friend Dr Sam rer a lot who does a really great job of talking about how in order for there to be relationship there have to be two things like nothing can have a relationship with its own one like a relationship is what passes between two things and if we are so closely smashed together there's no space between us for anything to pass I can't even see you if I'm pressed up against you so if you would like to have a really really Lush relationship with your child as they grow like one of the essential requirements of that is that you are able to acknowledge inside yourself that there are two of us here we can we are far enough apart that we can turn and face one another and like stuff can pass between us and this is a this is a powerful moment to get a little taste of that on the more like negative feeling side even of being like I respect you enough to know that your mistakes out in the world are not my mistakes I'm here to help you through them but part of me being able to be here and help you through them is this essential thing of me being out on the outside I'm outside of the thing you did I can see it I can see you I'm going to guide you because I'm not you yeah because yeah of course if your little toddler feels like they are you then when they hit someone you're going to weep terrible what a terrible scary feeling so so my My Hope as the The Outsider person who doesn't have to do that inside journey is to offer a little bit to you of like you could come stand a little closer to me over here in the space of I'm ratcheting down the intensity this is not my child is not an adult hurting being mean to another adult right like out of adult emotions or or adult motivations my child is not a little monster out there oh no the one who birthed the monster like no let's like take all those stories out of here let's pull back our assumptions about children our own and other people's you can't drop your assumptions about your own child and keep villainizing other people's children you actually won't do that you will you will just keep yourself in a space of judgment and labeling um which which just makes you a less good meter for what's good it makes you a little bit less trustworthy to yourself and a little less trustworthy to your kid yeah there's a there's a Waring in perspective there if you feel like you need to label what's good and what's bad and what we're going to call them and separate them out like this like we want to come into a place of being like behavior is tools this tool cannot be allowed a aggressive behavior cannot be allowed to be as successful for you I need you to drop that tool and pick up a better one but like that's the level of morality involved at this stage which is basically zero yeah can I ask you a question so what I what I'm thinking about is we identify with our kids right they hit someone we like freak out cuz we're like oh my gosh essentially I just hit someone kind of okay when I was talking to my friend about this incident that happened M and I was saying like he's actually a really sweet boy um he just was acting up at the park but the mom was like trying to resolve it and I actually know the mom has cried over this to me like I don't know why suddenly he's in a position where he'll like push kids down yeah um what my friend said who was like saying he was kind of being a bully she said well didn't he have to learn this Behavior somewhere oh that's really helpful yeah and I I'm thinking that's probably a very typical question that people would ask and probably why when our own kid hits someone we think oh my gosh not only did my kid just do this thing that I'm like mortified by but there's going to be a level of judgment about either like I taught him or someone taught him and so I just would love to present that to you do these kids learn these things I have an opinion on it but do they learn to push do they learn to bite or is it is it something they figure out their body's capable of what do you think about that yeah I already said the thing right about like if this was a high schooler yes you did which is very helpful great so uh no they don't have to learn how to do that they don't have language or social skills all that they've experienced so far is a physical life in a physical body they just use this everything that they get or don't get in life it's just all happening through this body so the feeling is is I want that thing and I just use my body to get that thing in sort of whatever way they're very um very unsophisticated in in getting an anal forceful but very unsophisticated right so it it actually let's let's to their credit acknowledge that it actually is the most direct path to getting what you want if a different child has a toy that you want the most direct path to getting that toy is to get rid of that child and take that toy like just like duh right yeah IDE true it's actually quite sophisticated to choose not to take the most direct path because we are social beings that want to exist in groups together that's actually pretty sophisticated it's kind of um good it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways until you've learned and experienced until you've experienced the rewards of cooperation enough time to be like I actually like this better I like working well with you better than I like just getting what I want that's a lot to ask and that's something that you have to learn to instinctively feel some form of a hunger inside and go satisfy that hunger that's pretty base it's like Basic Instincts right to to start out this way we start out pretty rough we start out pretty aggressive we start out pretty um just like yeah like lower level instincts you know we're hungry we desire things we we we feel a stimulation we act out of it we stimulation happens impulse happens like that's super super normal things that are not normal very specific kinds of hurting someone right if you've got like a three-year-old who's pinching somebody where you can't see going going in to make sure that like leaving little bruises and weird or the a level of there's when there's like a knowledge about something that's a little weird let's keep it let's check out let's just like yeah or certain words used at the same time as a as a injury or like a you at the preschool heard some like very specific swear words used at the same time as a as a move and you're like accurately yeah you're like okay older sibling maybe or like some somewhere that was obviously learned because that was that was language was involved yeah right but I want to play with that person they're playing with you I don't like it and I've barreled into you move your body over roughly like no one to teach you how to do that I can we can all feel that inside of our bodies right okay so I know that we're we're deep enough into this episode already that I can hear the comments crying for like just tell us what to do right I'm going to tell you what to do right now and then I'm going to say some more of stuff like this perfect so we've brought ourselves down to neutral we understand these are tools these are developmentally normal tools kicking biting scratching uh wrestling pulling of hairs even like causing some hurt to get what you want or to get someone out of the way or to get out of something that you don't want like this is really normal almost all children will explore some version of this in some ways to find find out if this is a good tool to use a lot of them will be met with a lot of success because these are impactful things to do they do cause the impact that you want and we know that's one of the fundamental things that a todler is trying to figure out like what impact do I have on this world so unfortunately these are pretty successful in the in the lesser the Lesser version of success they're pretty directly effective yeah so what we want to be doing for them is really making these tools very unsuccessful it needs to become very frustrating and uncomfortable for them every single time they do this so that when they then go to do this they think of the feeling of like GH being thwarted and frustrated I want it to be uncomfortable for the child who is aggressive good to be hurting other people yeah period so that we can offer them in that same exact moment better tools no you will not this will not work for you this could work try this no this could work try this no this could work try this and then when they try this one immediately we're back into the fold High success I want it to feel really good when you use a more successful tool and really aggravating almost like boring to a 2-year-old to be one who's hitting other people so unsuccessful that it sucks sucks for you if you use this tool delightful for you love it instantly no punishments like you're not you don't need to pay us back for this you just need to stop doing that and do all these other things that work just trying to bring them into the space of yes yeah because fundamentally that's what they want actually what you want is to be part of this group in a way that feels nice so I'm going to be over time consistently bringing you back into this place where it's good I will always stop you so uh quickly the difference between a boundary and a rule is that a boundary tells you what I will do in a certain circumstance and a rule says You must or you may not so if you tell your tiny toddler no hitting you may not hit ever that's a rule it's a fine rule I don't think it's going to be very effective because your toddler does not hold rules in their mind they don't have a reward system in their mind for I follow A good rule and it's good or a bad Rule and it's bad or sorry don't follow the rule and it's bad they don't they don't retain like that it's nonfunctional but I'm the adult and I'm in charge of safety so I will remove you I will move you if you hit her this is how we use our hands if you hurt her I will move you I'm going to move my body which is also different from a threat which is you better not hurt her you know what I'm going to do if you hurt her so right we've got two ends here one is I'm trying to control your behavior in a way that's whatever but just not going to be very successful and then on the other end we've got I'm get scared of me which is also but if you hurt her if you push her with your hands if your hands push I like that even better if your hands push I will move your body away I'm going to pick up your body and move it away I don't let people hurt her body this is my precious friend I don't let people hurt your body I won't let you hurt her okay it's really good and so so there's the big I won't it's deep inside of I won't let I won't let people be hurt where I'm in charge and I won't let you be the thing that hurts nobody wants to be the mean one nobody wants to be that kid it sucks over there too but they don't have a better way to get what they want or they haven't been invited into something that's good enough that it's motiv to get what they want so children who are doing this over and over and over in longterm ways are people who are not who have not been given skills to really get the thing they want which is good cooperation within the group or have just haven't enjoyed enough of enough of how nice it is to be together and do it in the nice way yeah that's great so there's the big I won't and then there's the little I won which is I won't let you hurt her I won't and it's still not like you have to stop because that's not an inside motivation a really good picture of this was actually uh recently in a gathering I was hosting a sweet little boy almost 2 years old whacked another little girl right in the face everyone we like all took good care of it and moments later he said what happened and he was being so genuine like it was such a pure hearted like what happened why had a all the adults lost their minds why is everyone why did you move her why did you move me like it was it was just so good for me to see he's a bigger little boy um but that's really how it is like they they don't have all of these connections that we have and so that's that's like so helpful is okay when you do this I will move you that's so fast that's so like right here in this one moment not if you do this then later something something something we and then we won't be able to come back here and then like oh it's too much he's GNA ask you what happened in like two seconds also now you're just mad because your voice is just chattering in a way that can't be comprehended nothing makes me more Angry me Lan than being confused oh yeah that's right you're like now I'm confused yeah I just think this is so good so something happens immediately it's we'll be moving you I'm sitting here you can't play with this like whatever is the whatever is logical to the moment that you're in you have to stop the thing that's taking place yeah so to get like real practical about it if there's there's been an act of aggression here great no problem I'm now here unfortunately I'm not going to be able to be having this conversation with his other mom for this moment because I there's something important that needs to be taught here I'm now here with a children playing and I'm telling you if your hands hurt people only people whose hands are gentle this is what gentle hands feel like are sitting here ouch no thank you and then there's a big scoop and transfer immediately good and I'm not big on like we need to be in a totally different place now like I my preference is that like the the one child is on one side of my body this child can be close to that other child if they're gentle if not they just get immediately scooped to the other side of my body I just want to remove them quickly from the thing that they want so that it's clear you will not ever get this thing in that way I will make sure it immediately and pretty neutrally just kind of sucks for you if you try to do it that way seems like you wanted a thing did you want to be here playing with us great over here we're going to touch gently show me I'm going to show them with my hands I'm going to use their little hands to touch me correctly to hold the toy in a way that's not harsh and then you can come back and if you do it again you're you're gone you're way over there I will slide a child quickly across the floor with my little hand gently swiftly lovingly quickly away and and then I will hold them away and let them be upset ideally I want them to be a little upset about it I want them to use their hand in a way that is rough and then they feel a little upset I want it to feel a little bad which is pretty different from a punishment right I'm not this is where I'm not taking out in spanking I'm not biting you back when you bite me because I think that's too much I don't think they can connect that I think there just now they're just hurt and so and I in a way that I don't and they're asking what happened correct yes but I wanted to I want you to be a little bummed so that I can go oh I see that you're upset do you want to be with us I would love for you to be with us my goal is that you come back absolutely come back and practice in this lovely way I'm happy to help you that's great happy to help you and if we need to leave or we need to go way over there and integrate you in some other play because this person is not working for you today their viby I don't know some it's I still don't think it's bullying but sometimes there's a weird vibe between a couple of kids and maybe we should just get a little distance there whatever um but that's that's the the motion that I want it to be of like I won't let you hurt people no we are using our gentle hands here show me great wonderful be here oh yikes ouch no thanks I do like to when we're in a calmer a little bit of a calmer space I want them to sort of see like look at her face ow look she's crying that hurts When We Touch people like this it hurts them show me what's gentle would you like to bring her something I wonder what we could do like if there's an opportunity for that be a part of it yeah if there's an opportunity for caregiving for the person who's been hurt great that's not something I'm forcing that's opportunities that I'm looking for and it'll probably be easier if you're dealing with like a two or three-year-old versus one-year-old who's still trying to figure all this out the Oney old is very puppy training of like just frustrating for you like I'm a door that slams the second you do that oh you want to come back in great be like this slams the second you do that I guess we're going to go do something else I hope you throw a tiny tantrum about it that was a bummer okay now let's plug into something else and we'll try again you know so there there's real training involved here and I I respect that it would feel really challenging on like your one morning where you get to see friends yeah tricky like a lot of compassion for that but if it if the consistent experience is when I use my body roughly when I hurt like when I feel this impact then it's a hard no for me and I'm being shown pretty consistently what else I can do with my body how else I could try to get something uh and someone's there to just help me with the feeling of a lot of the time it is I want what that person has and my adult answer is just no that's not available no would you like something else yeah this is tough I'd be happy to snuggle you while you're sad that you don't get to have that you get to be sad that you don't get to have that and segue you get to be mad that you don't get to have the thing you want you get to be mad that I'm saying no it's allowed to be upsetting for you segueing into uh aggression is a natural part of the human experience we want things we need things and when we're one and two we're wrong about the difference between that we think we need everything that we want and we're wrong and we're allowed to be wrong and when we don't get stuff we need we're upset about it when someone crosses over the edge of who we are as we often talk about anger should come up when somebody crosses our bound when we're one and two we are wrong about how far our boundary has extend right we feel violated all the time and we're wrong about that and and we just learn we learn to deal and find out what actually is my territory and what's not my territory as adults ideally if someone crosses into our territory a rise comes up and I move them out where they belong and if I need to be a little mad about it or if someone really violate something that's important to me I'm precious and worth protecting and I should be mad and a lot lot of us are really really separate from our own aggression this is something that Jessica and I to speak for you are on a path about with this we've been in a lovely way getting to learn more and more and more about what anger is for and what aggression is for and what self- protection and self love and self value look like on this podcast we have some guests who've been here but a lot of us are like you should not be aggressive my child should have no form of aggression inside oh no when in fact aggression is like a vital and protective and livening force we should have something that's tingly and sparkly and and alert inside that flares up really significantly when we need to be protected and also just kind of motivates us and and agitates us when something's not going well in our life there should be something that goes like yeah you know we we want that piece of us to be integrated so it's important to be honest with ourselves as adults are we trying to prohibit aggression in all its forms because that is something that like psychologically that's us trying to split off an essential piece of of who we are and now of who our child is and sort of banish it and so either we're going to if we're successful in that we are we are adult women who have either lost some of that that vibrating Life Energy don't know how to protect ourselves kind of bleed out maybe are a little under motivated unambitious can't find the drive that we need inside can't say like this is making me uncomfortable I'm going to leave don't know how to honk when someone's like done something really dangerous and they clearly can't see us we don't know how to make noise and be like I'm here don't hit me uh we think it's mean to honk our horn sure or we are people who are so pleasant all the time except for the secret times when we freaking explode in ways that we can't control or don't know about or shock us or if we're really honest some of us have kind of some kind of weird cruelties and some weird raging inside some it's twist that the aggression that we've tried to shove down twists in a weird way and we're people who are kind of resentful kind of cutting about gossip in some sneaky way because it always it always finds it way out huh because of what you're saying because it's a part of who we are and so we're trying to learn how to use it and then also teach our children how to use it appropriately what we want is to welcome that part know about it have it be part of us use it to fuel our lives use it to say stop your body this is dangerous for me I don't like I don't like the way this man is speaking to me I'm going to leave don't crash into my I'm use my horn to uh aggressively let you know that I'm right here we're in danger you know like we want to be comfortable with that we want to have moments in our intimate relationship where our husband has said something so offensive to us and that we cry and say I hate it that you said that to me me like so that we can work it out together and he can take care of the fact that he hurt like right we want to have that be part of us functioning well so it doesn't need to be those weird sneaky things or it doesn't have to explode because it ventilates regularly as it should it's it's doing its job and this is what we want for our children is to say when your aggression comes up I won't let you hurt people I won't let you hurt me I won't let you hurt yourself you are always allowed to be mad you may go outside and stomp your feet as hard as you want I got a DM from someone asking how to get her taller to stop stomping his feet and I was like take him outside I don't know that I'm the person you're to talk to because I think your toddler should stomp their feet when they're mad great what a great way to Make Some Noise to feel that feeling of like if they have not bitten you they're not screaming uncontrollably not hurting anyone yeah when you said no they didn't run to go pinch the baby or the dog like cool they stomped their feet cool that's so appropriate when you feel this feeling of punching in your arms I believe in that feeling of punching in you that's real this is a big tough pillow anytime you want to come over here and use your little fists on this pillow you go ahead and you do that let's go outside and be as loud as you can I see that you're mad that makes sense to me I will not let you XYZ when you're mad we can go outside and we can be as loud as you inside is not a good place for you to be as loud as you can that hurts our ears would you like to do that outside I'm happy to have you go outside and use your ventilate your aggression in this appropriate way it's a flow something is coming up in this child and we get to be the ones who help teach them how to direct that flow that's great does require us to really be honest like take an honest inventory of our own relationship to aggression and find out are we trying to eliminate anger are we trying to pretend that there's no such thing as negative emotions and in that way really vacating uh an important place for us to be which is a place that sees our children as whole whole beings teaches them like where they can put those feelings what they can do with that what the appropriate way is to Express and also is on when it's just no like it's a lot of things in life are just no and a lot of these aggressive moments come because children don't have someone there to to be compassionate about the part where like I saw you snatch that from her and I am giving it back to her this is going to be a hard feeling and I would be happy to stand over here while you have a huge effing tantrum about it and I won't even be embarrassed sure you have as big a tantrum about this terrible feeling as you want and when you're all done we'll just move on that's not my whole inv about tantrums that's just an example piece it's so good and you could even share this if if any of this episode is like whoa this is really good um and and relevant to you and your friend group maybe share it with your core group of mom friends because sometimes we're just lacking some tools or even like a framework for what all of this is and we're all afraid that we're raising the like mean kid or we're afraid that our kid will be bullied and so we're like oh no like they they just don't have the skills and we don't have the skills if you guys all could have some language and some understand it also just helps to have more than one mom be looking out for our kid if we know like oh so and so's little one is in a stage right now where he tends to hit when he wants to get something done he's not a mean boy but now there's a few of us to be like oh that's not how we use our body that's not how we treat our friends we can jump in and help each other and relieve I'm thinking of like one mom in my life she has a baby and a toddler going through that stage what a gift to have some other mom friends just looking out for the older brother as he's trying to figure out what he and how toate to other people so I think this is this is so helpful I mean it's so helpful for me listening as a parent but I think like share this with your people if it helps give you some language for how to interact with these little ones yeah yeah yeah and I'm feeling this feeling of like God there's just so much more there's so much more to say about this I do feel like I am not in a negative way but like I have not I feel like okay I'm underserving this topic in our space and I would like to comes up all it comes up all the time and there's so much Nuance to it there's a part about about speaking to other adults in your life there's also a part about like reactive aggression from your child there's so many flavors to it and then also like actually I think my child is doing this in a way that seems abnormal and we talk about that or or atypical is the word I'd prefer to use you know but like there's so much yeah there well there's so much to it and I don't feel confident about how to fully serve you guys we could do a two years worth of podcasts about toddler or aggression so I don't want to just keep doing them here I don't want to I don't like to put out reals about this because it's such a nuanced topic so I'd like to do something for you guys that is a course or a piece of literature or a something and if you would please send me an email email us at verygood inpod gmail.com I'd like to know how many of you are interested and like what kinds of flavors yeah of this you'd like to talk about feel free to share stories if you're like you didn't really touch on this thing that's really bothering me but let me let me if this ISP you're interested for you but need from you about what what the flavor of that could be and what kind of format are you people who want to buy a course are you people who rather read an ebook are you people who want like what what do you how do you like information question you could do yeah you could do like a group coaching session or something because you'll have to prep for it too so yeah and I I I want to put my effort into the way that's like going to serve you the very very most because it is so important and it's so tender and I don't want to miss but I also don't want to be absent so I just would really really really love to hear from you guys about this so that we can make something great yeah and I also feel like people are going to be asking like what happens when I'm the parent of the kid on the receiving end how do I respond what do I do yeah the other parent maybe isn't paying attention or is minimizing what's happening or something feel like this could go on and on so please respond wherever you see yourself in this please respond because we would love to you best and thank you this was so good thank guys we'll see you soon we love you bye bye very good enough is a production of very good mother's club if you enjoyed today's episode please take a second to rate and review the podcast wherever you're listening if you're watching on YouTube hit subscribe and 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