ExclusiveCCP's Disinformation War Toward the West Since Mao's Era | Michael Sheng

Hi, welcome to Focus Talk. Today we're going to have a conversation with Professor Michael Sheng about his books on Chinese Communist Party's first leader, Mao Zedong, as well as on the disinformation campaign the CCP has waged toward the West since Mao's era. Professor Michael Sheng is a history professor from the University of Akron, Ohio. Professor Sheng, thank you for coming on to our show. Thank you, Jenny, for having me, and hello to our viewers as well. Thank you. So Professor Sheng, you have conducted extensive research and analysis on the history of the Chinese Communist Party, particularly Mao Zedong's era, and you had two books published, one in English and one in Chinese. So first, could you tell us what motivated you to write about Mao and his era? Sure. My first book is entitled Battling Western Imperialism, Mao, Stalin, and the United States. It's published by Princeton University Press, and my main finding is that ideology was very important, and it shaped Mao as who he was, as well as his policy. So it was some kind of a personal journey for me as well. I grew up in China, and as far as I could remember, I was receiving quote-unquote ideological education when I was a very little kid. And whatever I was taught, it was from Mao via the propaganda machine. So it shaped me, who I was, and who I identified with myself, etc. So I became very loyal to Mao and the CCP, and I was a Red Guard and then a Communist member. What other choice do I have to choose from? Everything I was taught, every media outlet, every book I read, were all tightly controlled by the CCP. And at the same time, the elders around me who taught me everything, they were true believers too. So it seems to me ideology was very important in shaping who one is. And yet, when I come to the United States and start to read all those books about the CCP, a lot of them say, well, ideology wasn't important, and it was just what the CCP put out and projected outward for the purpose of propaganda. It didn't define who they were and what they want to accomplish. And there was a question whether or not Mao and his followers were true Communists or not. And that seems to me was incorrect. Therefore, I determined that I want to find out what the law was, ideology, specifically Communist ideology that affected Mao's following policy, agenda, and behavior. And my conclusion was ideology was very important in this regard. And that was very much against the Western historiography. Yeah, it seems many scholars in the West, they have a favorable impression of Mao Zedong. Why do you think is the case? Well, there are two sides to the story. Number one, American fundamentally failed to understand who Mao was and who the CCP was, in large part because they belittled the law of ideology. They often think Mao as like Edgar Snow in 1930s, putting it like a China's Robin Hood, fighting for the poor in the countryside. But that wasn't the case. And they also had the perception that Mao was not getting along with Soviet Union either. So as a nationalist, Mao could be hostile to all foreigners, the Russians, and the Americans as well. And I think that was a mistake. Number two, Mao and his followers were very good in putting out the kind of reality show to confuse their opponents and to project a different image of themselves so that the opposition to their cause would be softened or went away. And Mao, to a larger extent, succeeded in doing that. It's interesting you talk about reality show. You know, this year is CCP's centennial. The Chinese Communist Party released some documents that showed how they handled foreign relations. And in there, it specifically talked about how CCP gave the U.S. delegation favorable impressions back in 1944, when the CCP had headquartered in Yan'an. That contributed to U.S. decision later not to help Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang, which was the key reason why the CCP later defeated the Kuomintang. But I suspect that the U.S. delegation saw a reality show when they were in Yan'an, right? Yes, you are right. That delegation was widely known as the Dixie Mission. At the time, Mao understood the Americans didn't really like Chiang Kai-shek that much because his regime was ineffective, and his troops didn't fight the Japanese very forcefully and successfully. And there was a lot of widespread corruption in his government. And at the same time, Americans seemed to be quite fascinated with the communists. The first contact between them were American pirates. They bombed Japan and could not possibly go back to their base. So they just passed by the Japanese territory and landed in China, where it was under the CCP's control. So the Americans tried to figure out who those communists were. All they could read was Edgar Snow's work, right? And then they decided, we are going to send a delegation, the Dixie Mission, to Yan'an to find out who they were. That gave Mao an opportunity to wage a disinformation campaign to confuse the Americans. What Mao wanted was after he successfully confused Americans, the Americans would officially recognize the CCP, just as they work with Chiang Kai-shek's KMT. Number two goal was that Mao wanted to receive military assistance from the United States, just as the United States assisted Yugoslavia's communists under the leadership of Tito. So why not give it a try? It started with a kind of tour guided by the communists. And that very much impressed the members of Dixie Mission. And they saw Yan'an as the model of future China. Everything was so bright in comparison to grim Chongqing, the wartime headquarter of the KMT. And they saw everyone was happy. And they worked very hard. And everything was rosy in their eyes. Of course, the true face of Yan'an as a history has been studied very well by many scholars. And behind the rosy facade, you have massive killing, killing of their own people. Why? Only because they did not really follow Mao closely enough. Or some of them, like Huang Shiwei, there to criticize the CCP leadership and to reveal the dark side of Yan'an society. And he was behind it. Of course, those ugly truth was hid very well from the view of Dixie Mission members. Of course, Mao's disinformation campaign went way beyond just hiding the ugly truth. And he also tried to convince Americans. The CCP was not really as they thought. And the CCP was democratic, just like the Americans. And Mao even entitled one of his major speeches on the Seventh Congress of CCP as on the coalition government. Remember, the CCP always attacked the KMT regime as a one-party dictatorship. And now he told Americans, look, China and the CCP would be ruled by a multi-party coalition government. What else do you want? The Americans, right? And he entitled another major speech as on new democracy. Sounds familiar? And the Dixie Mission members, such as John Service, was so impressed that he wrote back to the State Department, claiming that the CCP's program was simply democratic. And in spirit and in form, the CCP were much more closer to the United States as to Stalin's Soviet Union. And you can see that documents in American archives today. And that indicates how successful Mao was in waging a disinformation campaign to confuse the Americans. So based on those disinformation, Acheson decided we're not going to intervene. And that's the famous or infamous hands off China policy. And after the CCP took over the entire mainland, Dean Acheson continued to believe that the United States shook hands off China and not to defend Taiwan on behalf of John Gershwin. So that's why Dean Acheson was so angry when Mao showed his true face after liberating, quote unquote, the entire mainland. He first went to Moscow to sign a treaty with Joseph Stalin. And then he sent troops to Korea to fight Americans militarily. And Acheson understood he made a grave mistake because he was hit by Mao's disinformation campaign. Yeah. So you highlighted the role of ideology very well. Was there something else that motivated Mao in his policymaking process? In addition to ideology, to Mao, the other important elements that we have to take into consideration is his personality and his personality cult, which was the focus of my second book. American scholars always claim that the United States crossed 38 parallel. Then Mao decided to participate in the Korean War. And that was untrue. From my research, I discovered as early as 1949, May 1949, Mao already promised Kim Il-sung, the North Korean leader, that if you have a war in North Korea, South Korea, and you don't have to worry because we are right behind you and no Westerners could tear a Chinese apart from a Korean because we all have black hair. Right. Right. So go ahead. And remember, this was May 1949. There was no communist regime yet. And communist, the PRC, yet to be established. So how can you talk about Mao sending troops to Korea was after MacArthur crossed 38 parallel in 1950. That's absurd, right? So why did Mao really want to send troops to Korea? It's not for national interest. It was not for the people of China. It was for himself. He had this narcissistic personality. He wanted to be not only the leader of communist China, but also the leader of Eastern revolution. At the time, his obsession was to establish so-called Eastern common form to coordinate actions among Eastern countries. And Stalin understood Mao's ambition and gave him the go ahead. So in late 1949, before the creation of PRC, Mao's headquarter moved into Zhongnanhai. And immediately, he started this study group that involved communist leaders from Indochina, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, etc. And that was the ambition that Mao wanted to export Chinese style revolution with a focus on armed struggle. So getting into the fight with the Americans in Korea, that would boost his image as the leading of the East, whereas Acheson hoped that he would become Tito of the East. The truth was the opposite to Acheson's dream. So in your opinion, how has Mao's ideology and personality cult influenced his successors from Deng Xiaoping to Xi Jinping? Later leaders of the CCP always emulate Mao, although none of them, including Deng Xiaoping and Xi Jinping, could exceed Mao in terms of their reputation, their status within the party. But they tried. And they understood sometimes you have to wage disinformation campaign, but you should not lose the true self as communists. And Deng Xiaoping, for example, became the vice premier. And he came to the United States and was received by Jimmy Carter. And he went into many places and started his charming offensive. And he was realistic because he understood if his openness and reform policy want to be successful, he need American assistance in terms of technology, in terms of capital, etc. And he was a very charming guy when he was in the United States. But soon he showed his true faith in Tiananmen crackdown in 1989. After that, the relations between the United States and China soured. And then Deng Xiaoping realized without the help from the United States, he could not succeed in transforming Chinese economy. So he started charming offensive disinformation campaign again, by sending all sorts of officials, scholars to the United States, to Western Europe, talking about what the Americans want to hear, such as China would rise peacefully. And we are not going to challenge the existing world order created by the United States after the Second World War. You know what? Because we benefit from the system. So why should we challenge it? And it sounds very convincing. At the same time, they gained American trust and opened up their economy, led American companies to make money in China. At the same time, they steal a lot of American technology and make Chinese economy very strong, much stronger than Deng Xiaoping could imagine when he died in the 90s. And that's the success of emulating Mao in disinformation campaign. And Xi Jinping followed suit too. Remember, Xi Jinping went to Australia in 2014, and he made a speech in joint session of Australian parliament, where he said that what China dream was all about was to transform Chinese society before 2050 into a harmonious, prosperous, democratic society. But it's a socialist society. So after his speech, Tony Abbott, the Prime Minister of Australia, was so excited. And he said, well, I have never heard any Chinese leader promise that China would become a democratic society in just a couple of decades. Well, very soon, the Aussies understood their PM made a monumental mistake in misreading Xi Jinping. Yeah. So what lessons do you think the US and the West can draw from the history when it comes to dealing with today's CCP and its leaders? Well, I think just to look back into history, remember the importance of ideology and who they really are, and not to be confused by the kind of reality show put up by Mao and his successors. Sometimes they can be very convincing but it's not true. But also, I think just look back into history and learn from the history. For instance, today, a lot of Western media and the policy advisors were very agitated because the Chinese Air Force sent more and more soldiers almost every day to Taiwan. And they claim, oh, well, Xi Jinping was going to attack Taiwan in any minute. And The Economist magazine put up an article calling Taiwan the most dangerous place on earth. I think if you look back into the Mao era, Mao was much more forceful than Xi Jinping. He literally, day and night, bombarded the KMT territory, the island of Kimoye, Kinmen. That was real military operation. In comparison, Xi Jinping's Air Force soldiers to Taiwan could only be described as harassment. But why did Mao do what he did? He did not really want to have a fight, a real military conflict with the United States. But why did he wage such a military campaign against the KMT, knowing that Americans would intervene? Well, his purpose was twofold. Number one, domestic mobilization. He wanted to wage domestic campaigns such as Great Leap Forward and People's Commune, and et cetera. If you create external crisis in Taiwan's streets, that would arise people's patriotism, as he put it. Number two, his purpose was to challenge the Soviet doctrine of peaceful coexistence. Remember, it was Khrushchev getting ready to visit the United States to shake hands with President Eisenhower in Camp David, right? That was Mao's second purpose. So don't be fooled by the appearance of the CCP. They can be very confusing and tricky. It's a part of the disinformation campaign. That's very interesting. Well, thank you so much, Professor Sheng, for sharing your insights with us today. I really agree with you that it's important to understand the history because it often sheds light on the present. I believe our audience can also benefit from your analysis and findings. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, thank you everyone for watching Focus Talk. That was my conversation with Professor Michael Sheng. We'll see you next time.