ExclusiveNorth Korea Defector: How My Belief of Communist Regime Collapsed | Hyun Seung Lee | Focus Talk

So, Han-Seong Lee, it's great to have you with us today here. Thank you for having me. Thank you. So, Han-Seong, you have an amazing story. You grew up in an elite family in North Korea, and you and your family defected in 2014, right? Yes. Okay, so first, could you tell our audience, describe for us the family that you grew up in? So, before I describe my background, so it was 2013 that Kim Jong-un started to kill his uncle, and then around his uncle, there are almost hundreds of officials were executed. And then that incident made my father and me, my entire family, to rethink the communist regime. And then my sister was studying in China, and then her roommate was also a North Korean student. And then after their class, a North Korean agent came to my sister's room, and then they grabbed my sister's roommate, and then they escorted her to North Korea. And then her last text message to her, my sister, was, Hey, can you pack my thing? Then I don't think I can come back. And then my sister was shocked, and then she came back to home, and then she was very shocked, and then, Oh, my friend was arrested, and then how can I help? And then, you know, my dad and me, then there's no way we can help, because it's all related to Kim Jong-un's decision. And so that happened in November 2013. And then I went to Pyongyang in September 2014 with my father, and we found out that. So also my friend was executed with his father-in-law. And then another friend was sent to political prison camp because his grandfather was close associate with Kim Jong-un's aunt, Kim Kyung-hee. And then all these things, you know, gave me like, you know, hard time to understand the true nature of the regime. And then my family gathered one place and then decided that, Oh, this is not the country we can leave. And then this is not the leader we should serve. So we made tough decision. So I think it was the decision that whether we leave as a slave, or we, you know, find the freedom for ourselves. So I'm proud of my family that we decided to defect for freedom. So I was so-called elite class in North Korea, and my dad served two times as a presidential appointee job. So he was as like a CEO and chairman of one of the biggest company in North Korea. As you know, North Korea owns everything. So it is, of course, state-owned, you know, entity. I was able to get, you know, highest education, like, you know, studying foreign language. And then I was, you know, had a chance to study abroad in China. And then before I got to China, I volunteered to serve military. So I served more than three years of North Korean military. More than three years in special force, right? Yes, it was later I moved to special force. And then I became a member of North Korean Workers' Party, which is, you know, communist party. And I was a trainee. So I'm so proud of myself to become a member of the Workers' Party because nobody can do that at an early age. But usually North Korean men can, you know, become a member of Workers' Party like age 30 or 40. So I'm so proud of myself. And then all this belief is collapsed because of the brutal executions and then the fake propaganda. So before that, you actually firmly believed in the regime. And you grew up, like, when you grew up, you didn't see anything that contrary to what the regime promotes? Yes, because as you know, we don't have any other information in North Korea. We cannot access internet. And then we don't have, you know, many information. So I believe what North Korean propaganda said. And then I have no doubt our socialism, because socialism emphasizes, you know, equality. And then everybody is the same, you know, and they believe us, we having lots of freedom. Then we found out that I don't know what freedom was. And then they didn't teach us what freedom is. And then they never mentioned human rights. So surprisingly, I understand the freedom and human rights when I escaped. So first time I heard freedom and human rights, it was after I escaped. So when you grew up in North Korea during the years, do you know how average North Korean people live? Yes, because I went to military. And then like every year, we went to rural area help like farming as a student. So I experienced some of them. And then I found out that I think it's normal. Because, you know, my relatives in rural area also having same, you know, living conditions. So but at the time, I saw like every society has, you know, up and down. So maybe there's some people who are living good condition, in good condition and other people bad. But I found out that majority of people are living very bad condition. So through like outside information, watching Korean dramas and American movies, and they're living so good. Then, you know, having some questions about the socialism, that why socialism emphasize that socialism is the best system in the world. And then why everybody's suffering and then other people, you know, we are educated all the time that capitalism is a bad thing. But why they are living so good? When did you start to have the doubts? Was it after you left North Korea and went to China? No, so I went to China 2007. Oh, okay. To study, you know, abroad, as an abroad student, overseas student in Dalian city in China. And which school? And it was the China Dongbei University, Finance and Economics. In Chinese, it's... In Chinese language. Yeah, what school is that? The Dongbei Jiajing University. Good Chinese. Thank you. So that's where you went? So how many years did you study? It was four years study. Okay. And then I started realizing that all the North Korean propaganda is fake. And then I can access internet, you know, Korean news, all that, Korean dramas. And then, oh, whole like after a year while I'm staying in China, whole my perception was changed. And then, but I cannot criticize Kim regime because if I do, if I did, my family will be executed. So I cannot criticize, but I had a lot of doubt on the regime. At the time, was your father in China as well? Yes, my dad was assigned to induce investment in North Korea. And then my dad also very, he was trying to open the country. What was his position? So he was the negotiation representative of North Korean joint commission. And then also a representative of one of the North Korean company. So he was trying to do lots of introducing market economy into North Korea. Imports to North Korea? Yes, yes. Okay, okay. But, you know, since Kim Jong-un executed his uncle and then all these efforts, you know, meaningless. Then my dad think we should do something for North Korean people and this country. And we decided to left. Now, how many years did you stay in China? I think almost seven years. Almost seven years. So after four years in that Northeastern university, where did you go? So I was staying in Dalian city. And then I was become a North Korean agent to do business between China and North Korea. So at the time, both of you in China, I think your dad and you both had doubts already, right? About the regime. That's true. I think my dad had very, you know, deep thinking about the, you know, regime's policy and regime's behavior. So because he had, you know, very feeling, betrayed feeling because he was so loyal to country. And then he committed his entire life to the country and the regime. Now he realized that all those things are like meaningless. And then we cannot even save our people and make them happy. How we can say that it is the best country in the world? Now, so you're saying in 2013, Kim Jong-un did this mass execution. Yes. I think I saw in one of your interviews, you said that in one day he executed 500 people? No, it's a one year, whole year. So he started killing his uncle. And then, you know, throughout the year, he almost, you know, 500 officials purged. You know, many of them executed, many of them sent to political prison camp. And it was very cruel, right? The way he executed those people. Honestly, the two top officials around Jang Song-thaek, they were executed by anti-craft machine gun. So it was so brutal. And then those people who experienced the execution, and then they were speechless. And then they couldn't eat, you know, meal for two or three days. You mean they executed these two people in front of a lot of people? Yeah, yeah. Those are like government officials, top leadership officials, generals. My goodness. So they just did that in front of all these people? Yes. So did all these people dare to say anything afterwards? No, they can't. They cannot say any word in front of them. Because if somebody says that, then that person could be the same, you know, victim. Same fate. Yes. Now, why do you think Kim Jong-un is like that? He studied in Switzerland, right? You would think that having studied in Western school, at least he will have a little bit of recognition of Western democracy or human nature. Why do you think that's not the case? I believe it was a very short time, like around three years. And then he was into, you know, basketball game and then other stuff. And then I don't think he's really understanding the Western culture and society. And then he came back and then he was also educated, you know, by the regime privately. And then he found out that he is the top person in North Korea. And then he doesn't need to open the country because he knew exactly if he opens a country, freedom and the information will spread out North Korea. And then he cannot maintain his authority. So, honestly, he tried to open. Like in 2010, 2011, he started his office. But he realized that opening country is so dangerous to this authoritarian regime. So he gave up. And then repeating his father's, grandfather's policy. And the same violence. The same violence. More extreme than his father and his grandfather. So his father at least put the people in the political prison camp. And then like seven years, ten years later, somehow released some people. But this guy is total execution. Like Kim Jong-un. Total execution. Executed people. Wow. So I imagine if a lot of people saw that, they will have the same feeling, same reaction like you and your dad. Probably deep in their hearts, they start to collapse. Like they don't believe in regime anymore. Did anyone else dare to defect or do anything? I agree with you. And then I also heard lots of people, you know, private conversation. They don't trust Kim Jong-un anymore. And then their belief on the regime collapses as well. So they wanted to do something, but they don't know what to do. They don't have any vision after Kim Jong-un's collapse. And then the reason they cannot defect is because they have families in North Korea. Not like my family, they have no chance to defect. I mean the entire family. Like my family also, if one of my family was in North Korea, I think we couldn't decide to defect. Because it's very suffering to see families executed or brutally tortured by the regime. And fortunately, your family were all in China at the time? Yes. My dad had special permission by the regime, Kim Jong-un's father, that we can stay in China as North Korean people. But my dad, as I mentioned earlier, my dad was assigned the job to introduce market economy to North Korea. So at the time when your family defected, can you share a little bit about how you did that or in general? In general, once we decided to defect, and then we were trying to find a way out. And then once we left China, I believe that the CCP and the North Korean regime chased us. And then we were very worried that the Chinese government would block our flight or leaving. But luckily, there was some help from the Free Society, and then we were able to make it happen. And then later, after defection, my friends told me the regime was very furious to find us. And you defected to South Korea first? Yes. And then to US? That's correct. Why did you leave South Korea? So while we were in South Korea, North Korean regime showed my grandma, uncle and my aunt on TV show to threaten us to not stay in South Korea. Unfortunately, we could not stay longer in South Korea. Another reason is there was some safety threat while we were in South Korea. So the entire family's safety was at risk. So we had to leave South Korea. Okay, I'm sorry, I missed it. So the North Korean regime showed your grandparents on TV? They were still in North Korea? Yes, my grandma and my uncle and all the relatives are still in North Korea. All relatives, they're still there? Yes. So they showed them on North Korean TV show, and then threatened us to come back to Pyongyang. That if you don't, they're gonna... I think that's the signal that if we keep staying in South Korea or helping South Korean government, that means they want to do something, you know... To your relatives? To my relatives. So then you decide to leave South Korea, and do you know if your relatives are still safe in North Korea? So unfortunately, I heard that several years ago, my uncle was jailed for life. And then one of my cousin's husband was killed because he couldn't get the surgery, because North Korean government blocked his leaving the country to have surgery. So and then all my family is relocated from the capital city. So that's the last, you know, information I had. So that's why I'm trying to save my relatives and my fellow North Koreans. That's why I'm trying to, you know, my voice heard to international community. Yeah, to tell them about what's going on in North Korea. So now that you're in US for six, seven years, right? Tell us, how do you feel living in the free world? First of all, it's very fresh feeling that once I landed United States, and then I believe that, oh, my like, you know, entire body felt comfortable. Because I don't feel any threat. And then I don't feel any pressure. After several years of study, I found out myself that I have to, you know, let the world know the situation in North Korea, and then the brutal, the reality of the communist regime. That's why I'm at CPAC. And, you know, I'm trying to educate people. Yeah, definitely. I think this education is so important, because I feel that you're not only educating people about the communism in North Korea, but communism in general, right? Because do you feel you see a lot of socialism slash communism sign in the free world, in the Western world? Yeah, you know, especially in US, I saw many people, like young college students, they think socialism is better than capitalism. You know, actually, friends of friends told them they support Bernie Sanders and then socialism. So I was like, wow. And in 2020, you know, the CPAC, the theme was socialism versus America. And then I was speechless, because I never thought that socialism would be the topic of United States. Because, you know, socialism is the failed system. And socialism's end goal is totalitarian system. And then I think, why? Why do you think, you know, socialism can work in the world? Yeah, why? So, and I think they are not educated. They only learn socialism through book. And then all those theories are looks good, sounds good. And then they think, you know, it's much better than, you know, free democratic system. And then we've been there and done that. And I was living socialist country for 29 years. I experienced North Korea and China as well. So all this, you know, system, like China and North Korea, the main goal is total control. Limit the freedom of people. And then US young Americans, they don't, they think freedom is taken for granted. So they don't think, oh, nobody will take away, take freedom away from us. But my point is, if you are not awake, then your freedom will be eliminated while you're asleep. Did you get a chance to talk to these American young students? I made a several speech and then share my experience to young college students. Like events or conferences? Yeah, conferences. And then there's one amazing NGO, Liberty North Korea. And then the NGO is helping North Korean people escape and then educate young Americans about North Korean human rights. So I had a chance to talk with them. That's great. So you're also helping to do the KPAC thing, right? Korean CPAC. So is the goal to bring the CPAC back to South Korea? And why do you see the need to bring a CPAC to South Korea? So the Korean CPAC was established in 2019. The reason is South Korea also is in danger. And then we found that, I personally found out that, you know, there's a lot of socialist followers control the legislative branch and government. And then especially current Moon administration is, I would say, they are communist regime. They want to control the people. They want to control the system. And then they won't make one party state like CCP, China. But many people in US, international world, they don't think South Korea can be socialist country or communist country. But I believe that if we are not, you know, spread information to the world or like if we are not fighting for these communists, and then they will eventually make South Korea into communist country. So, as you know, like 2020 in South Korea, there was an election. And then among 300 seats, 180 seats were occupied by the leftist party. And then many people thought that there was election fraud. So this, you know, we have upcoming presidential election, March 9th. And then we are trying to, you know, monitor the election. If there will be no more fraud. Do you think the Chinese Communist Party had something to do with the situation in South Korea? Because after all, they're so close. Of course. China, you know, influenced everywhere, every place in South Korea. And as you probably know, South Korea has the Confucius Institute. Oh, Confucius Institute, yes. They have the most, they have a lot. How many they have there? What I heard was more than 10,000 Confucius Institute. 10,000? Yes, so South Korea is the actually number one country who owns, who has, which have Confucius Institute. But ironically, there is zero Confucius Institute in North Korea. Because North Korea knows that Confucius Institute is not just a cultural exchange place. It's just a spy agency. So North Korean regime never allowed China to establish Confucius Institute. Oh, North Korean knows the CCP regime. They know each other. They're the same. So they know very well. Of course. Wow. So that must have a lot of influence on the... Yeah. And then, you know, South Korea is relying on China so much economically. So like their trade percentage, like 30% of the overall trade. So even though like conservative party members reluctant to criticize China. But I think they should be brave. They have to talk about free society. And surprisingly, two days ago, there was a presidential debate. And then the leftist party's candidates unbelievably talked. Ukraine provoked Russia. That's why Russia attacked Ukraine. That's total nonsense. Which means that the Korea 1900s provoked Japan. And Japan occupied Korean peninsula. That's the same logic. This, I think it's very, very important that the communism and social evil be exposed everywhere in the world. Because it's not only US, not only South Korea, but everywhere in the world. Now talking about this Ukraine, the latest Ukraine situation, I actually want to ask you a question. Because the Russian military force does not push as far and as fast as they think. And people are spreading on social media the picture of the Russian soldiers like lacking food or lacking gasoline. You were in North Korean military. So I think in your past interviews, you said that North Korean military also the condition is really bad. What was it like? Yeah, North Korean military, the food quality and the equipments, training is not that ideal because of lack of all the resources. But they have superior position like nuclear weapons, biological weapons, biochemical weapons and hydrogen bomb. And especially they have cyber warriors to attack South Korea. So I don't think South Korean media emphasized much, but North Korea already conducted cyber terror against South Korea. They tried every aspect of the South Korean system. They tried to hack nuclear power plant. They tried to hack the military headquarters, and then banking system, transportation system. So once war happened, they were starting hacking first. They want South Korea into chaos through hacking these old systems. Think about it. If all this happens, banking is not working, transportation, nuclear power plant, they lose power, then it'll be total chaos. And then they, you know, launching missiles, invasion. There's always step. And then North Korea has like a three-day plane and seven-day plane to invade South Korea. So only deterrence of the war in Korean Peninsula is U.S. Army. So that's why the North Korean regime and then the South Korean, the pro-North Korean group trying to remove U.S. troops from the Korean Peninsula. And then they are working so hard in the law to U.S. Congress to introduce the bill so-called peace on the Korean Peninsula. And then, you know, 30 members of Democratic members of Congress supported the bill. And then I believe that they don't know what it is. It eventually undermined U.S. and South Korea's security and then makes South Korea into like another war or like a socialist country. So you're saying that these communist regime, even though they're not treating their soldiers well, they're not feeding them enough, not even treating them well, but they develop other weapons. That's true. To try to- High technology and then, you know, the bullets like, you know, nuclear weapons. So they want to trade soldiers well, but they have no resources. That's why South Korean government keep trying to give so-called humanitarian aid. And then I was in North Korean military 2002-2005. And then surprisingly, I ate South Korean rice all my military life because at the time, the leftist government gave lots of- I assume that billions of dollars of aid. So, you know, North Korean soldiers- They're feeding their enemies, basically. Yeah, basically. I was like, hmm. So and then we, every week we get education that South Korean presidents, they are so weak. They kneel down in front of our great leader. And then the rice, all these resources we are owned, not they gave us for free. So don't like, you know, envy or like have fantasy of the South Korean regime. Wow. So is your next step to go back to South Korea and to have this K-PAC events and to do more education there? Yes. So we are planning K-C-PAC, Korea C-PAC every year. So we had a successful event 2019. But unfortunately, due to the COVID limitation, so we cannot, we couldn't hold the successful events, in-person successful event. But we had a virtual event 2020 and 2021. So hopefully this year, we can have in-person wonderful events. Wow. Well, I wish you all the success. So I also hope that, you know, your effort will help more people to realize socialist communism is really an evil system. And we should all try to defend freedom and not let these evil, you know, ideology infiltrate the free world. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a great conversation.