La pratique qui a changé ma vie - Dialogue inversé avec Thomas Gusatto

This is the paradox of meditation. On the one hand, how can we continue to practice after not doing much on a cushion? There are so many more fun things to do. But in reality, precisely, because in practice, from a certain point of view, we do nothing in the usual sense, we discover a power of action completely new, that we have lost a little in our culture, but which is absolutely central. And precisely, we learn that we have forces, resources, knowledge, an intelligence that is just blocked by bad habits. Hello, in this episode of Dialogue Reversé, I am answering the questions of Thomas Gussateau, who leads the training on meditation to transmit meditation in one year within networks. And we will explore how meditation helped me not to be discouraged, to keep courage, to keep hope alive, and how it could also help you. Hello Fabrice. Hello Thomas. You have been practicing meditation for 30 years. Why do you continue? Why all this work? What has it brought you? In fact, it's been a little over 30 years, but it's good to think about it, because I think it's absolutely exciting. I discovered meditation when I was 21 years old. And I must say, it never ceases to seem to me completely exciting, in the power of transformation and in the way it allows us to find our place in life and in the world. It was not easy at all, because in my childhood, I had everything so as not to feel in my place in the world. I felt really, I was hypersensitive in a dysfunctional family. Really, it was very difficult, and I really felt like a squirrel thrown into boiling water. And it was really, I have often talked about it, but I was an extremely suffering child with terrible ideas. And meditation absolutely transformed and gave what I really think is essential to meditation. It brings us back to life. And what I missed when I was a child was that I was not put in relation to life, and meditation allowed me to do that. So it was a relief, but then it's an adventure. If I'm still so passionate about meditation, it makes life exciting. And there is also the fact that meditation makes everything exciting. And of course, we are a little surprised, not you who practice and have this relationship, but for most people, it's a little surprising because meditation is always presented in a slightly opposite perspective, a way just to try to calm down and relax. Meditation makes life incredibly more interesting, more exciting. It gives you the courage to be able to face it. And of course, in 30 years of life, I have experienced, like everyone else, trials, difficulties, and I have seen how helpful it is. It's incredibly helpful. So you could have practiced for yourself for 30 years, but you didn't do it alone. You created a network, the school. We are many. Why all this work? When I received meditation, it was a bit of a coincidence. I knocked on the door of an apartment. I was a little terrified. I said to myself, what is meditation? At the time, we didn't know each other very well. I said to myself, you're going to take off your shoes, so don't put holes in your socks. I had this remark. I went there. I was a little worried. It was a bit of a coincidence because I had met someone who was talking about meditation. I was doing my philosophy studies. I was very disappointed. I found it very abstract. So I went there. Suddenly, I met a person who was really the first to want to understand the human spirit by putting neuroscience and meditation in relation. He talked to me. I thought it was great. After that, I trained for more than 15 years with him and the Tibetan masters with whom I studied very intensively. At one point, I realized that meditation was misunderstood. At the time, it was confined to a religious framework. I didn't find that meditation, even with the Tibetan masters with whom I studied, had anything to do with a kind of compassed, heavy, religious side. I don't have the religious sense at all. I am passionate about philosophy, passionate about poetry, but I don't have the religious framework. There are a lot of people like me who don't want the religious dimension at all. So that was first presenting meditation free of that. And then, when meditation became what it is today, it became a little... By becoming popular, it became a little simplified and a little unhappy because we completely remove the richness, the manner. Because if meditation transforms our life, and if meditation allows us to change the relationship to everything we live, it is because it has an incredible depth. It is really this depth that transforms us. So this simplification removes the power I was so in love with practice that I said to myself, but it's really too sad that other people have access to a form of meditation that aims to calm them. But when we live a serious difficulty, we don't need to calm down. We need to heal, to transform, to change the relationship to what we have. If I ever lose someone, I am betrayed, I have to face difficulties, calming down won't be enough. I really need to be able to work with the emotions I live, transform them, find another relationship to the world. So it is this power of practice that I found important to transmit and open a real debate with philosophy, with the great therapies, I thought it was in this debate that we could integrate meditation into our world. And many people did this work, especially in the United States, Jack Hornfield, Sharon Salzberg, Tara Brach, and many others that I knew well to have met them in the United States. And I said to myself, they are doing a job that I found important to do. How do we deal with fears, anxieties, trauma, the feeling of not having a place in the world, hypersensitivity? I thought it was this that was fascinating to try to explore. And this is how meditation transforms us. What do you think meditation answers today? I think it has changed over the years. I see your question very well. It is very fair. At one point, it was the exotism of a spirituality when we are cut off from the spirituality that has marked a lot. Then we saw that in relation to the speed, the tension, the calmness that meditation promises, I have the impression that today, at least for me, what strikes me the most is the power of discouragement. We see wars again. It is heartbreaking. We see global warming. We see social violence. And a lot of people are really... There is a discouragement. And I think that meditation brings us in relation to a joy that is not a negation of difficulty but that teaches us to be able to face a whole new world. It teaches us to be able to face it in a whole new way. And so, I have the impression that today, a lot of people everywhere see that meditation has entered hospitals. We have worked a lot to bring meditation into elderly people, in retirement homes, with young people, in schools. Obviously, there is a danger that I often denounce, that meditation is just to be more efficient, not to make waves until death follows. Because it is very important to say that meditation means nothing. It is like talking about food. There is food that can poison people. There is food like my grandmother did, which is delicious. And then there is the food of great chefs. And so, each time, it is another experience. Or cinema. There is commercial cinema. There is a whole world that aims to prevent people from thinking by themselves. There are films that make you think. There are films that prevent you from thinking. There is meditation that prevents you from thinking, that prevents you from seeing clearly in your life. And there are, on the contrary, meditations that are clear, that awaken, that open in depth. And so, I find that meditation today is helpful to this need to regain strength, to regain momentum, to regain courage, not to be discouraged, not to give up. Because we cannot do without problems. I don't believe in all those who will tell you, I have a way and you will never suffer again. No. There are trials in life. There are difficulties. But we can learn to never be discouraged again. To be able to face it. And I think that meditation has this extraordinary, extraordinary power to make us not be discouraged anymore. And not by a voluntary, abstract, theoretical decision that doesn't work at all. And I talk about this. Almost all the guests I invite on the channel keep talking about this trap, to believe that it is by closed will that we will succeed. It's not because I decide that I am anxious that I am not. It's not because when I have an insomnia that I decide to fall asleep that I will fall asleep. It doesn't work like that. It's not by this abstract will. But it's not a set of attention, habits, new behaviors that the transformations that we can transform, calm down, wake up. And that's what I believe is important today. And it's clear that in school, it's both for everyone. A lot of people come to discover meditation. But we also have a lot of professionals, therapists, and people who come to train themselves because I think that now the approach I present is known, recognized, it has been imposed. We have trained thousands of trainers who today transmit meditation and see the rigor, the seriousness and the effectiveness of the approach in a positive way. There is an efficiency that is completely crisp and there is an efficiency that is happy. When I see a doctor, I want him to be effective. But if he is crisp about wanting to be effective, he will no longer be scared, he will want to do only analysis without being scared. So it's the real efficiency that seems to me quite relevant. And so it's the therapists and all these professionals who come to meditate today, it's to be able to give a little breath and life to a lot of people who have the impression that they are cut off from life. I think there is something like that that we see today, a kind of fear, paralysis, discouragement. And basically we could say that stress, burnout, are diseases where we are like cut off from life. We want to do so well, we are so caught up in a sense of duty that something that animates us from life no longer palpitates in us. That's it. Basically, stress and burnout, which are often described very badly in my opinion, come from there. These are really diseases where we wanted to do too well, to respond too well to the injunctions that were made to us, and it cut us off from life. And so basically we can say that meditating is extremely powerful for stress, burnout and all that has to do with life and it allows us to avoid this grip which is basically an external grip. Basically, burnout means that we are caught by a grip. This is very important because I often hear a way in which people are blamed by saying to them, you did a burnout, you are stressed, it's your fault, you are not doing well enough. No, it's because you want to do too well that you have this problem. And in fact, almost always, it's a bit of a very blameworthy approach that I have, often we go wrong because we wanted to do too well. So we cling to our past to heal it, it locks us up. We are prisoners of such problems because we want to do too well. And I think that's what's absolutely important to transform. Stop wanting to do too well to be in the right place, to find your place, as I said in the introduction. Now that you say it, that's what fascinated me when I met you and I started practicing in school. It was this side where we don't run away from the pain, we also look a little bit where it hurts. We learn to live with our existence as it is and we don't have to be afraid of it. It's a powerful learning. It's true that it gives you momentum. That's what gives us a little bit of courage on a daily basis. And I said to myself, I'm not being lied to, there's something real. Can you tell us how we do this experience in school? Because it's quite special. At what point along the way do we find this courage? What are the tools, the resources? If meditation is a technique, a corvée, an obligation, as it's too often presented, we're sure we're going the wrong way. The practice of meditation is like a meeting with what is alive in us. It's not necessarily pleasant. I remember the first time I meditated, I was suffering, I was so tense, I wanted to do so well, I was so tense, but it wasn't boring, tedious, it was intense, alive. I think that's very important. I see a lot of people who try to practice with a lot of applications, and I complain about it because I see that what they are presented with this syrupy voice and all that, so the first point is that meditation is a meeting with what is alive in us. And here we discover the extraordinary power of the ability to pay attention to what we live, which is quite surprising because it's something that we were never taught. We were never taught this at school, we were taught a lot of things, you have to learn this, you have to learn that, while meditation is a very specific way of learning, and so I would say quite brilliant, what it means to pay attention to what we live. I am irritated, how can I pay attention to my irritation? Or am I happy? And that's not at all obvious, very few people know this, because it's not at all funny, if I have to observe myself while I'm talking to you, I'm going to be in a kind of... you're going to say, I suddenly look like a politician who observes himself because they were filmed, they want to give a representation of themselves, so it's much more natural, it's a completely natural attention. And the first thing, quite surprising, is that this attention allows us to enter into what we live, by freeing us from the automatic judgment we have on what we live. I'm irritated, all of a sudden I say, I shouldn't feel that, or I'm angry, I shouldn't be angry. So here, by attention, we are in the meditation of dissolving judgments, what I often call the general prosecutor, who is there permanently, and it's already completely liberating. And we have another way in which attention works, it's that we are taken by resettlement. I don't know if it happens to you like me, but sometimes we are taken by something, we are resettled, and the illusion that we are all taken is by resettlement, I'm going to heal the resettlement. Someone has given us something that we don't like, and so we resettle, we come back, and we think we have to get to the end of the matter, and the more we resettle, and what is absolutely great in the work of meditation, is that we learn to free ourselves from resettlement by coming back to the sensations, to the real experience that we are living. Without necessarily finding a solution. We are not looking for the solution. First, because the obsession with the solution prevents us from being in relation to the problem. That's why I often say, to meditate is to learn to listen. First I have to listen to you and see what interests you. So, that's learning to listen. Besides, I'm happy, a lot of people on the channel like the channel precisely because they are struck by the way I try to listen to the speakers. And that's really a meditative experience. It's really listening to life, listening to what we live. So we see that this attention that we develop in meditation is surprising. It prevents us from being stuck, from avoiding the will to control. It prevents us from being prisoners of resettlement. It brings us back to the entirety of our being, of our body. So it already has a fundamental power. And it frees us from the general prosecutor and this kind of mania to judge our experience before having met it. What you say, I have the impression that there are a lot of things that we unlearn. We unlearn to use the will to solve everything, to put aside what we feel because it's not good, you shouldn't feel that, you have to be positive, etc. We unlearn that, but in this joyful meeting, ah, here it is, that's it. And next to all this aspect of the power of attention, we also learn in practice to open up to other forces than those of what is happening. We learn to open up to presence, we learn to open up to space, we learn to open up to goodness, we learn to open up to confidence. This is very little presented in the way in which meditation is transmitted. This is really one of the central axes of the way in which the true meaning of meditation is, as we find it in all traditions. Meditation is not only this extraordinary ability to be attentive, but it is also learning to open up to healing powers, powers of liberation, which we are most of the time cut off from. There is a way to train our heart to tame confidence, to tame goodness. This is a power, this is really... It's not easy at all to say to yourself, first of all, I have these resources. No, we don't say it to ourselves, we discover it in practice. And practice has this great thing, it's that something is done without me making it. This is the paradox of meditation. On the one hand, this is your question from the start, but how can we continue to practice when there are so many more fun things to do? But in reality, precisely because in practice, from a certain point of view, we do nothing in the usual sense, we discover a completely new power of action that we have lost a little in our culture, but which is absolutely central. And precisely, we learn that we have forces, resources, knowledge, an intelligence that is just blocked by bad habits. And again, that's what happens when we do a burnout or we are stressed. It's just mechanisms that cut us off from living sources in us. It's not that all of a sudden our being has transformed and that we have become... that we have lost... that we have no joy in us anymore and that we are screwed because we are stressed. No, stress prevents, covers life, joy, the relaxation that was there in us. And so, practice allows us to come back, to reconnect to this life. But concretely, what do we do? What practice are we talking about? Because meditation... I have the impression that it is a term that has become generic, we put a lot of things in it. You said it, meditate to sleep better, meditate for this, for that, with a somewhat reductive vision of meditation. What do we actually learn in school? What are the practices, what makes the singularity of your transmission? I think it's the vision. I think it's this vision that I'm trying to deploy. And the fact that we teach people in networks, because it's really a network of people who practice together. It's first of all an online school with a lot of resources, courses. I think we teach people the results with practice. We don't just teach them one practice that must be mastered, technical. We show them the meaning of practice, the different approaches. There are dozens of practices. I think on the network page we must have several hundred different meditations. Because we don't meditate the same way when we're a teenager who has to go to high school, when we practice just on a daily basis, when we're an old person, when we're sick, when we have a challenge, when we're scared, when we're sad, when we're angry, when we want to reconnect to joy, when we lack confidence. So meditation is all that. And I think that's the path we offer in networks. It's to learn how to meditate so that it's alive, so that it's great for us. Basically, it's very simple. I think that meditating must become great. I don't want to make false promises that it's always great. I have to say that even today, I find many good reasons not to practice. Or when I practice, I think, when will it end? But something happens that is so fresh, so alive, that renews my way of doing things that for me, it's really exciting. Like going to eat a good meal or going to see a good movie. Other things that I like to do a lot. There's still this experience. That's it. And that's why it's so great. How would you name the common point between eating something good, watching a good movie, and what we discover in practice? It makes us alive. It relieves us of a certain weight. It makes us happy. It makes us happy because we're human. And it's not because I eat a good meal that I cut myself off from others and from life. I really like a text by Camus that says that in our society, we shouldn't say that we're happy. It's really taboo. It's like the crime of common law. Above all, never admit it. And that in reality, it's a profound mistake. That it's not because being happy allows us to radiate happiness around us and to be able to help others. And that if we don't touch this sense of happiness, of joy, of fullness, then our way of wanting to help the world is cruel and oppressive and sacrificial. And Camus says that he knew a man who didn't like his wife. It's not good. And he decided to take care of her. And it was a catastrophe for her and for him. He had an oppressive generosity. And so it wasn't alive for him. It wasn't alive for her. And so I think that's it. Being alive is the opposite of what we think. It's not a closure on yourself. On the contrary, it's a way of resourcing to be able to see what we can do in our lives to make this world a little more alive. And I think that's the profound vision that I'm trying to deploy and that everyone is trying to deploy. Because in the network, we now have about fifty teachers who have been practicing for a very long time and who each have their own way of transmitting this vision. And you yourself are one of them at the forefront. And that's what I think is the strength of the network. It's that there are people who transmit it from their own experience by sharing this vision that meditation is being alive. It's not cutting yourself off from life. Too often, people see meditation as cutting themselves off from life. I shouldn't feel too much emotion, I shouldn't be sad, I shouldn't be like this, I shouldn't be like that. Our society tells us all day long you have to do this, you have to do that, you're not well, we're not well, everyone's not well. I think that's the key point. Because the big reversal for me, for example, was to meditate when I was in pain and to be in a slump, to touch that in my practice, the pain I had when I was forbidden for a very long time. Because it was like that, I was really educated that you shouldn't be afraid, you have to be strong, you really have to overcome the pain, forget it, put it aside, put it in your pocket, it should not appear, it should not be seen. It's really showing something of a kind of weakness. To feel guilty about it. And it's very striking how, despite everything, our society is still completely cut off from everything that emotions, their meaning, their transformation can be. It's still extremely striking. And what you say, which is very beautiful, is how you allow yourself to feel your grief, far from sinking into it, allows you to open a relationship to it that is completely new, because when you reject it, deep down, you want to feel it, and even if it's not necessarily very conscious, deep down, there is a form of anger against your grief, of refusal of your grief, of clinging to your grief, which ends up destroying us from the inside. On the contrary, it was very joyful. The memory I have of it, that's when it's overwhelming. It was to support what you say about the power of meditation training. I was really happy. I felt completely free, allowed, at some point, to cry, to really feel pain, and also to feel how this pain connected me to others, to myself and to the world. We can allow ourselves to be human beings. We are not at fault for being human beings. So, the training that is offered in the school, within the network, has existed for many years. A lot of people have been able to participate. Myself, I have seen a lot of people follow what was offered, your work. What is the result of all this, what comes out of it? At one point, we realized that a lot of people wanted to be able to transmit meditation in their work, teachers, teachers, therapists, or just to train in meditation in a structured and organized way. There are people who like to learn something in a coherent way. So, we did these two trainings in one year, to really allow people to enter the practice, to understand how it works, to understand the different elements. In other words, meditation is like the recipe for cooking a complex dish, and we learn all the ingredients we need to put in it. A bit of attention, a bit of presence, a bit of kindness, a bit of non-judgment, how to do it when we scream. So, we learn a bit about cooking. It is a cooking course, and this course, in one year, has been revealed and I am very happy to answer this request. A lot of people, after this year, choose to continue to train, but they can already start. A lot of people tell me that it completely transforms their way of being a therapist. Some tell me, it is not so much that they teach and do meditation exercises, some do it, see when to do it, but others just tell me their way of learning to listen, their way of experiencing, not intellectually, but in our inner being, completely transforms their way of being a therapist, but also of being a coach, a sports coach, a lot of use of nurses. We have an extremely large audience of people who want to do it in their company, who want to train, I think we have developed a pedagogy, you can talk about it better than me, but we have really developed a pedagogy, step by step, structured, that really allows everyone this form of meditation. I want to integrate it and I want to be able to understand it and maybe pass it on to others. Obviously, I only have one desire, it was my motivation, that as many people as possible can discover how meditation is such a simple way to find this talent, this joy, this depth of life. The more people do it, the better I think it is worth it. Many therapists have suffered from their studies where they sometimes found it very abstract, very technical, and they lacked this precise and rigorous existential dimension, and this approach can allow them to acquire it. There are two trainings, why these two trainings? For the moment, there are two trainings, one on presence, with all the aspects we have developed, and one on the dimension of authentic benevolence, in order to be able to develop, to change the relationship we have with ourselves. The problem for most people, and this is what all therapists notice, it's really striking, is that people are very hard on themselves, they feel they are not up to it, they feel incompetent, and so the year on benevolence allows people to show a way to learn to transform this relationship with ourselves, to go from a feeling of distrust, of rejection, of fear, of anxiety towards oneself, to a warmer, more confident, more gentle relationship with oneself. So people can start with one or the other, it may be better to start with the basics of presence, and those who want to do benevolence, but those who already have some training in meditation want to start with benevolence, we are not rigid at all, so it's quite open. Why did we highlight benevolence? I come back to the confidence you mentioned at the beginning, in relation to discouragement, etc. Why do we talk about benevolence and there is no longer this aspect of confidence? Because, I would say, the essence of today's practice is attention, presence, openness to what we live, it gives us confidence again because we connect to life again. What does it mean to have confidence? I don't really know why, but I feel I can go. I have this basic security that allows me to explore my experience and the world. I am not stopped. Something does not freeze me. Confidence is the opposite of something that freezes me, presence opens to this confidence, but authentic benevolence, I always say authentic benevolence because today we use benevolence in so many ways, but authentic benevolence is this way of connecting with... In fact, authentic benevolence is to connect with oneself with confidence because instead of blaming me, of torturing me, I meet myself with gentleness. And that, of course, gives confidence. What is the lack of confidence? I blame myself, I condemn myself and so I am stuck. That's it, when I don't have confidence, I am stuck. And basically, that's it, the discouragement that happens a lot in our world, is that we are crushed and cut off from ourselves, cut off from life itself. We always have good reasons, we must be careful, we always have good reasons to be discouraged. I mean, my grandparents who survived the war, and who really survived by a kind of, both chance, miracle and intelligence, when they told me, it was not logical. They didn't say, we're going to have courage because it's logical. It's a way of coming back to life and trying something, trying something, betting for life. And that's why I'm here, me too. So I think that's really the lesson, I think the lesson of people who have gone through serious difficulties. It's not, once again, a magic wand that will make you have no more problems, but we can learn not to be discouraged, not to give up, and something will come out and we will be able to learn to bet on life. That's it. That's what meditation allows. And because it's not an intellectual conviction, I'm convinced it's good. It's something that I feel, that I experience, I would say, viscerally. I think that's the strength of meditation. Maybe that's what I should have answered to your first question, but it teaches us something visceral. It teaches us joy, life, happiness, but in a visceral way. And I think that's what, at least for me, that's what helped me. That's what helps me today to get out of something a little fabricated to come back to this pulsation. Something very bodily, because there, in what you say, we feel how much the practice has to do with the body of this intellectual approach and watchful approach, as you said, where we observe our life a little from a distance, we try to conceive solutions to our problems, etc. While in fact we are more connected to what we feel. The two trainings we're talking about in one year, who is it for? It's for, basically, everyone, that is, to discover meditation. And the advantage is that it is structured, and that by teaching people to be able to transmit meditation, it's the best way to integrate it, to understand it, to be really trained. Because for people who don't want to transmit, it's really a good way to enter a clear path. So it's both for all those who are going to transmit it in their profession, and for those who want to be trained in the practice of meditation by understanding what it really is. And what must also be said is that it is an online training. This is very important. Everything is online, with videos, moments live. And there is just in the training, an internship. A lot of dates are proposed. A five-day internship in which we really do the experience of meditation in a residential setting, and where people are really guided in practice to make it a sufficiently solid experience to be able to have confidence in their power of transformation. And for now, all the people who have done the internship show how much it has really transformed them. So I would say that's it. So there is just this internship to do somewhere. So it's in several places in France. It works. And then the online training throughout the year, where we are really guided, enlightened, we can practice. This is the training process that we propose. Yes, because on the first internship, I saw a lot of people coming in who discovered the network, your teachings through this training. Yes, there are a lot of people today, it's true, who understand that meditating is not just following an application, that it will not lead very far, that we do not really have confidence. And a lot of people are starting to know, because there are a lot of people who have done it that the paradox, it's still a crazy paradox, that practicing 15 minutes a day seems impossible, and doing an internship is much easier. And once we did it, our relationship to practice changed. We went through a kind of blockage and it's much easier to practice after. I know that's the only thing I said in this video that people cannot verify by themselves. It will be necessary to do it to see. But there really, it's an experience that everyone, all those who have done it can testify. Yes, because it's true, there are people who come to discover the network, but there are also people who come to consolidate their practice, to leave with the tools to be able to integrate it into their daily life with the difficulties you are talking about, where we have trouble getting used to it, we are a little lost. The internship really gives all the tools to integrate meditation into one's own life. And some really have a project to transmit the practice and wonder how they can do it in business, with elderly people, teenagers, or in a more personal, associative framework. After what I find particular, Fabrice too, what has engaged me in all this for quite a few years now together, and it was important for me, is that the network, the school, remains an association. We are not a training agency where we offer additional training. So it's very important, that's what will surprise people a little, is that we are all volunteers. I mean, everything I do within the network, I do it voluntarily. All teachers are volunteers, which obviously means that the rates are completely different. We just find our costs. It's not at all in a commercial perspective. But I think it's consistent with everything we've explained, that we think meditation can transform people's lives. So we give them the gift of teaching. We don't speak the same way when we do this, because it lives in us. We want to give it. I think it gives a certain quality that seems consistent with the project that is ours. It's certain that in the network, we are first in this perspective. There may be associations where people are paid anyway, but we are an association in which all those who teach do it voluntarily. And that's why I have another job, I'm an editor. And I think it's very important. You also have another job. Everyone has a job. So when we teach, we also teach from that point of view. We are faced with the same problems as everyone else. We don't live in an elsewhere. And I think it also contributes to the singularity and quality of the transmission, of the training that we offer. I found it surprising to see how serious, solid, structured it was. There was a real pedagogy. And for me, it was reserved for the private sector. I found it almost surprising. It's true. So we have a hard time believing it. A lot of people tell us that. Because it's true that we have both the living, existential aspects of an association and the extremely rigorous side. But that comes from my training. I was trained by one of the greatest neuroscientists, a doctor in philosophy. It's true that I have a concern for precision, rigor, clarity. And also, if I can make a confession, I suffered a lot when I was young, to discover meditation. Everyone took it as a bit vague. I studied philosophy. I thought it was very serious. You have to do these dissertations. It's a bit technical. And as soon as I talked about meditation, people found it a bit cloudy. And I wanted to show that meditation can have the same rigor as anything else. That we can be very precise. And that's really one of my commitments. I often find that we are a bit vague. I don't have time to talk about it here, but the presentation of meditation comes from a lot of dialogue with all these American authors, but also a lot of great therapists. And I realized that when we talk with great therapists, we can see that what makes it really help people is precision. Good feelings don't help. Good feelings have never helped anyone. What matters is precision, meticulousness. And here, we are aiming for a thousand. And I think that's what's really essential. Okay. So, it makes you want to do it. How do you register? If people want to train, how do they do it? So, either you go to the website, or you click on the link below and you will have all the information to discover the training and all the other activities within the network. And the training starts in January. Here, we are in October, so people can start to register right now. It's really simple as a good day to register and to be part of this adventure. And the more people will understand this approach of meditation, the better. Thank you for watching this episode of Dialogue Renversé. And see you soon for other Dialogues and other Dialogues Renversés.