Zia| From Reselling to Running ZIA Africa | 13 Years of Business Lessons

When you're importing and the thing is already made, it's just the price that it is. But I think something that's taken time for me to learn is... Like this one? Yes. You have to think about the Uzi that you'll use, the buttons that you'll use, the zip that you'll use, the tailor's time, the electricity. There's so many things that you have to consider that you need to account for when you price. Welcome to Seller's Reflection. Today is also a Founder's Series edition. I am hosting a founder. I'm sure most of you maybe you don't know, of course, you know, some of the times we see beautiful pieces online or you see a beautiful dress or something beautiful, we don't get to think of how much work that is going behind it, like the team, the sleepless nights, or where did this dress come from, because for everything that is beautiful, no matter a person, no matter a story, there's always something at the back that we don't know. So that's why today I'm hosting this. Amazing, amazing lady who most of us are her clients. I don't even know if he knows I'm an alumna or an OG. Thank you so much, Pele. Let me say, I am so happy for you making it here. And me, I'm so happy and honored to be here. Thank you. I never, when I approach you, DM, it's not easy. First of all, it takes, you just text. When she texts you, of course, this is a business page. You don't know whether she's reading or not. Then you replied. I was so happy. And me when I saw it, I was like, oh my God, Sele, I am so, so honored. Thank you for having me. Oh, and I love your work. Thank you. I love your work. So before we even get into it, maybe you can just introduce yourself. Some of them maybe want to have a collection of yours and they don't know. So tell us something about you. Okay. Hi, everyone. My name is Zia Nyamari and I'm the CEO and founder of Zia Africa, which is a sustainable fashion brand for women and children. I didn't know you do children. We do. Like you have children on your website? We have clothes, children's clothes on the website. For real? Yes. Made from the Africa of cats. Really? Yeah. So I can twin with my daughter and my son? So if you, actually it's on your son. Yeah. So if you get this, you can make for him shots from what he left from the cutting. So we are sustainable. So it's not only girls? No, no, no. Just children. Me and my boys. Photoshoot loading. Yes. So tell us, how was it? Like, where did Zia Africa come in? Like, is it something you experienced growing up? Or your mom was someone? Yeah. No. I think I started Zia, initially it was just Trisex. You know the way, you just like, how am I going to start a business? My friends used to go out on the weekends, so I started by going to Gikomba, looking for clothes there, then selling to them. Then I'd sell, they'd sell out, they're like, we want more, we want more. So I was like, haiya, this thing is actually viable. So, because I saw a gap and guys are not really, guys are wearing the same thing at that time. That's in uni, many, many years ago. How many? Tell us. Don't calculate. Don't calculate. We won't. That was 13 years ago. Yeah. Is Africa 13 years old? Yeah. It is. Yeah. A decade plus. Imagine a decade plus. So, when I started, it was initially, no, I started importing after I saw that, okay, Okay, when this dress, this dress is shaz. Someone wants another one. They're not there. Obviously, Gikomba, thrift, you know how it goes. So I started by importing. I used to sit at Nakumat Lifestyle on Saturdays. Obviously, there's no borders at that time. So I used to say, OK, on Saturdays, come and meet me between 1 and 3. They come pick? Yeah, they come and try on in the washroom because that time it's payment on delivery. Try on in the washroom if they like it, they go with it. If they don't, I just go back with my paper. So you're like a hawker? Yeah, basically I was a hawker. But by this time now I had opened a Facebook page so I used to advertise on Facebook then say if you like now you like book and then you come on Saturday and try yeah. So you you go with whatever that was booked? I mean you go with everything? I would go with everything because it's not that like I had so much stock maybe like 10-15 pieces. We're selling those high-low tops, tribal prints Trouble cream tights were holding us, keeping us in a choke hold. But yeah, so I did that for some time until the pandemic. So until 2020. Yes. So this is 2013 to 2020. I'm just importing and selling to Facebook followers, Facebook friends already, which was already Zia Africa. Now it was Zia Collection at that time. But yeah, it was registered as Zia Collection. So when the pandemic happened, I had opened a store. Now we have grown kidogo. I was excited. I put all my savings. I quit my job. I had a job now after uni. So this was part-time? Were you doing it as part-time? It was like a side hustle. Oh. Yeah. So because now I'm just importing, I would just reply to them like at lunchtime. Lunch hour. Yeah. So now during the pandemic, I was like, before the pandemic 2019, I said, let me put all my savings together. I opened a store. I leave this job. Corporate life is not for me. You are in 8 to 5? Yes, 8 to 5. Yeah. But I always had this feeling that what if I give? My business, as much as I'm giving this job, how much can it thrive? So by the time I was now opening my physical store, I was really excited and really hopeful at the potential and the possibility. I was even starting to think, what if I get one tailor? Then what would that look like? So I opened like this within, I think, one month COVID was announced. Yeah. Yeah. So I closed as soon as I opened. It was so, by the way, it was so dramatic. If there was a time I was going to quit, it was going to be that time. Yeah. So yeah. Are you a lover of fashion? I love fashion. I can tell. You can tell? I can tell from the hair to the earrings. I can tell. So COVID hit. Then now here you are going back home. Of course there's no 8 to 5. You quit 8 to 5. I have quit my job. You've taken your savings. I've taken my savings. You've opened. You've gotten one fundi. No at this point I've not even started Made in Kenya. Now I'm still importing. Yeah, I was, I had just given birth actually. So I was, by the way, I was ambitious. I've given birth, I've quit my job. I'm just like, eh, yeah, you faithful servant. So how did, what happened after so now, after COVID-19? So now I started thinking, so I still had a bit of savings. I said, okay, let me consider doing local manufacturing. I didn't give up. Because online was still booming. Now that's when guys are at home, guys are doing TikToks and content creation has hit. At this time now, we have many years of experience of content creation. So we just built on that. When I say me, it was just me and a castles lady. And I joined an incubator. So now this incubator helped me put some structure into my business, because until then it was just a side hustle. I was not bookkeeping, I was just vibing. Incubator program like an entrepreneurship course? Yeah, like a business, like six month course. So ask me like, what are your challenges? I said finances, obviously. Of course, we need money. We need money. I need to like learn how to scale because also I was not scaling. Like if we're bringing 20 pieces, I was bringing 20 pieces throughout. I never wanted to. I was so scared, by the way. Oh, at times you can make profit. Yeah, I would just inject the same amount of money, get the same money like that. I was so scared, by the way. Yeah, I was scared of dead stock and people not buying. So it's like as long as I know guys are buying when it tells that I'm like I'm like, well, let me make that out to you. Then you bring something new 20p yes evil evil for a long time for a customer like me Exactly exactly Okay, they can link it, yeah. We don't like at the city uniform exactly Yeah, and maybe I should ask is there a meaning asia amazia nijina nijina twillie That's really quite a nickname. Yako. Yeah. From? Hey, don't say that. I don't Talk to me nicely. Absolutely. By then, I was thinking there was something, something, something, Z for something, I for something. No, by then it was just a nickname in high school. And then I really liked it because my real name, know. Chaton Tawambia, by the end of this podcast, I'll tell you. but so So Zia is not your name? No, no, no. It's a nickname. It's not even registered in here, by the way, as in as my name. Thank Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Okay. Yeah. But I later found out it means I think adorable and cute. And after having used it for like over a decade, yeah, then I was like, hey, by the way, what does this name mean? Yeah. Okay. So what would you say has been after finding your course? Yeah. What has been like the biggest business lesson? you. Amma, what did you learn during that incubator time that you were doing wrong? The biggest one was mindset. I had to shift my mindset because I was thinking very small and I think many businesses are scared of their potential and they're not willing to step out in faith. So as soon as I started bringing in more clothes, That's when I started seeing the growth tremendously. Yeah, I didn't think like people would buy. But once you have a hundred pieces sitting there, you have to sell. Yeah, so just shifting your mindset, believing in yourself. That's another big one. And discipline. I think discipline is a big one for business owners because there's no one, there's no boss you have to report to at eight or clock out at five. So you're the one who has to motivate yourself, motivate your team. And be consistent. I think I've learned that consistency pays. Yeah. I'm still stuck. Oh, okay. What had to shift? What are the things you had to change? I think just courage. Courage and also aggressive marketing. Because once you have a lot, you have to do more. Yeah, when you're just selling, your 20 guys are buying, it's very easy. To just meet them on Satopi, many of them in the washroom. Exactly, and after we move on. But motivating yourself is a big one, and also wanting more for yourself. You see, like, growing up, I don't think I had any convo's around money or finances, things like that. We just, like all of us, we're just going to school, you get a good job and you move on. But in terms of, you know, even having targets, I didn't even think at what kind of salary would I want for my business. In my head, it was just always a side hustle. So just, yeah, wanting more for yourself. So now you pay yourself from your business? Yes, I pay myself a salary. Ooh. But after how long? I just used to vibe by the way. I didn't even know which money is which one, which one is my account, which one is... It was just all jumbled. So now your business is way separate from you as a person. So it has a separate account. It pays salaries. I can just dip whenever I want. I have a team now. So you are clearly not self-employed. You have a business. No, no, no. There you are talking. You have structures running. Okay, yes. That much I do. But it took time. It took a lot of time and patience. Does the online presence translate to the sales? Hey, that's a good question because because we know you yeah, we have an online presence. Maybe I don't know if it's bigger than your your business. Let's see. They'd be like same. Okay. Okay. Okay. None. None outweighs the other. I think so. So does it does it help to your business? Does it add value? It definitely adds value. But it would remind me of the question. Does your online, like the way we know Zia, we know you. We know you're a mom, we know you're a wife, we know you're a nice girl. Does it help? Does it add value to the Zia Africa brand? I think it does because I've spent a lot of time building my personal brand. So now I advise business owners, fellow business owners. I've shifted my content to be more around growing a business, growing a brand. I had my first masterclass this year. Wow. Yeah. Like talking to SMEs? Yes. Wow. Yeah. So I've realized I actually have a passion for helping business owners grow and just navigate this whole thing. That's great. Because I felt like when I was starting out, I didn't have anyone to talk to. And I know many business owners feel lonely as well. They're just like, who can I call? Yeah. Yeah. So just... I'm positioning my brand to be more of a brand building and also I'm passionate about sustainability so I talk a lot about that so that's how they go hand in hand. Can you consider yourself to be more creative or more strategic when it comes to business? I'm more creative. I can wake up in the morning and say, so I have this idea. After I've planned, I've strategized the whole day. Yeah, that's me. My team is always like, okay, yeah. So you, you're more on the creative side. So you come up with a design idea. Yes. I enjoy that part, the photo shoots, the styling. That's the fun part. That's why I started this business. Now the other... 90% because that's only 10% of the ops and admin and human resources. I don't know if I enjoy it so much. So you started as passion. You love styling. You love passion. Then here comes this big business. Yeah, it actually grew more than I thought. I always thought of it as just this small thing that I do on the side. And then one day I spoke to someone and they're like, what if you, yeah, what if you put in all the effort you put into your other ventures or your, my corporate job at that time? And until that point, I'd always seen it as just like a thing. Fashion. Yeah, just like a fancy. My friends love it. Exactly. You see people on Instagram wearing your clothes. You feel so nice. You're like, okay, this is fun. Let me bring my 20 pieces again. Okay. And repeat, yeah. Okay, let me ask, what did you do in uni? Because you said your friends in uni used to love when you styled them. What did you do in uni? I actually studied community development. Is there any way they are marrying each other with your brand? Yes. Uh... We empower women in my local county. So we have a tailoring training of tailors program. So we train tailors. I'm from Nandi. And then we employ them. Yeah. So my big goal is by 2040 is to train 1000 tailors. Yeah. So that's where my background comes in. I really want to empower women. 90% of our employees are women. So I'm passionate about women just spending for themselves, creating a livelihood, and following their passion and making money from it. Yeah. So these tailors are only from Nandi or everywhere in Kenya? They are from everywhere in Kenya, but the program I've started is from Nandi. You've started in Nandi. Okay. So far, how many tailors? So far, we have trained 10 tailors. That was last year. Yeah. We are hoping to train 15 more this year. Because we also need tailors who have a bit of background and now we just refine their skills and And, um... help them create pieces that are sellable even if they don't get employed by us they can create garments that are really good quality that they can even sell in their community. Now, I want us to get into the making. You see, when you walked in, that coat, if I can order that one. Like that coat is so nice. I love it. I swear, I even love the fabric. Thank you so much. Take me behind the scene of making a cloth. By the time I see it online, I'm like, okay, dress me super. What happens? Like, you woke up. You sketched an idea and it got you to where you are now. Yeah, literally. Before I figure Instagram, I'm sure there's a chain of process. So like, okay, let me give you the example of this one. So as I mentioned, I'm sustainable. Our brand is sustainable, which just means that we make loads of the environment in mind. So we try and reduce our impact on the environment with the fabrics that we use. We are slow fashion models, so when you order, we make on order. We don't just have a bunch of clothes waiting for you. So that helps us also reduce the dead stock. Yeah. Okay. So, and fashion is one of the most polluting industries in the world. So like this one, now when we were transitioning into sustainability, it actually came to me in a dream that I want to create my own print. So you can see it has the heads, if you look keenly. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Had you noticed? No. Jeff, I have to honor you. This is letter Z. Yeah, so these are Zs. This actually came to me in a dream. Sorry, I'm not very good in art, but I have the passion. So I was drawing it, drawing it, drawing it, and then I gave it to someone who helped me put it in. You know, I can't unsee the Z. I was not seeing a Z before. So I looked for a supplier that can print for us this fabric, this print on cotton. Then I found a supply in Makueni. What do you mean? In Makueni. Makueni is where I come from? For real? Yes. I didn't know that. So this supply is in Makueni? Yes. Okay. So they're also sustainable and they employ women who actually hand weave themselves. Yeah. So I loved that story. I loved, loved that story. So I said, hey, may I now need to make clothes here locally and get fabrics here locally that are sustainable? Because this, if you throw it, even if after a hundred years, it will biodegrade. As opposed to polyester. It's like salt. Ama, it's what? It's cotton. Cotton made from what? From cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Cotton. Oh, from your place? Yeah, Pamba. Pamba. Pamba, yeah. Yeah, so you can see it's really good quality. It is. It is. This is the first thing when you walked in. Yeah. I was like, that is a good one. Yeah, so like now for this one. Yes, now we got the fabric from Makwene. My tailor stitched it. We did a few samples. And some samples make it like this one was just for the runway. Others don't make it. We just shelve it for another time. So it depends. If I like it, because we have to sample many things to see what is actually feasible, what people may like. So you use the fabric, you make a dress, you make a... Yes, then you see which one works. Sometimes it backfires. You can't even finish a whole roll. Nothing is working. So it's a long process, about a month from sampling to grading to now doing the photoshoots and releasing. So like is this one released yet? No more, this is not released. But after the compliments you've given me, I just might. Guys, to make any sales, we will release this one. I love it, I swear, I do. So some does not make it to the shelf, some. So that's a loss, Amma? You count it as a loss, Amma? No, because sometimes things even come back around. From years, I'll be like, hey, what happened to that design? Then all of a sudden, now we reinvent it. So we just keep them We also have sample sales once a year so we invite our customers to the workshop to come and buy the samples that we produce that are good quality but we never sold them. So even at throwaway prices from 500 shillings. That one, please. That one is nice. So you think about an idea, you wake up, sketch it, look for a fundi, or look for where you're going to get it. No, no, we have a workshop. I have a workshop here in Ngarara. So we actually employ 18 women. Women. 18? No, 16 women, 2 men. Yeah. So it's been nice building a team. So even when I'm always asked, how do you not give up? I'm like, I can't. Where are they going to go? These are 18 families. Exactly. Those are 18 families. So I think even when I started employing, I became more aggressive in terms of making sure Zia has to work. Because I need them to have a place to get money. So that makes sense. When you say it's you order, then we make it. Yes. So you don't have ready pieces. We have a few. So I have a physical store at Village Market, but it's more of a display just for customers who want to see the fabric, feel the fabric, fit. It's also a pick-up point. But majorly, we're a slow fashion brand. Online drives at least 80% of our revenue. Actually, that was my next question. What would you say was the difference between you getting a physical store and having an online presence? Well, it was easier because we'd already built an online presence. So most of our walk-ins are from online. Okay. Yeah. So they made you have them. Yes. Because you want to come and see. Yeah, that was the biggest question. I want to come and see. I want to come and feel. Kwanzaa Kenyans, they really doubt us as brands online. I want to come and touch. Exactly. They want to make sure you won't go with their money. Yeah, so. Are there any silly financial mistakes you've made in the 13 years? Many, many, many, many. I don't even know where to start. Two, maybe the one you're talking about. Not this one. What is a silly one that I made? Well, oh, there's a big one. Oh, my goodness. Till today, it haunts me. Now I'm an incubator. I'm feeling empowered. I said, hey, I'm still importing at this time. I'm still thinking of transitioning. I said, let me buy 50 skirts. From China. One, like, if it's like that coat, now 50 of them, now skirts. Same color, same everything. So if it's this, 50 exact. 50 exact. Size, different sizes. Okay, okay. But when I looked at it, it looked so, it looked so beautiful. I just knew this skirt is going to be it. It's going to come and sell out. I can't wait to do a photo shoot. Hey, those skirts came. You know, till today, you just look at them. I don't know what I can ever do with them. 50? They were terrible. They were many. They were horrible. The quality was so bad. I was saying there's no woman I would let wear this skirt. Even if I, my worst enemy, I would not wish it upon her. And by the way, if I show you what you ordered, my husband says, oh my God, it was horrible. So that was a big financial mistake because I didn't sample. I was just winging it. I'd never worked with a supplier before. I was like, okay, it looks nice. I ordered it. Yeah, that was a really tough one. And I'm sure many founders can relate to that because we order things, what you see versus what you get. It was humbling. Because the 50 of them were just like, now what will I do with them? I can't even give anyone. I was even thinking of selling them to this shop center. I'm just like, who is going to buy these? Who is going to wear them? Yeah. Yeah, um... And another one, I don't know if it was a silly financial mistake, But... The first place, the first location I opened at, the one that didn't work out, I was really promised the sun and the moon and the stars. The guy was like, hey, this brand is coming here. Physical location. So, you know, those strip malls, it was at Adams, still there, I think. They had really talked it up. They had said it's going to be the most buzzing thing that ever happened. Granted, COVID did happen. But even before COVID, hey, I was looking at this place. I'm like, did I make the right decision? Because there was no walk-ins. It was dead. It was hidden behind the Jew. It was hidden behind the Jew. Those brands that they said will come, they never came. Yeah, that was character development on another level. Ooh. I can imagine. People have told you that you will come drive-thru. Yeah. You know. What kind of supermarket? Okay, it's gunny. Oh my God. I will never forget. Even though he has a job. Yeah. By the way, he has a job. Even though he has a job. So you can't blame them. Yeah. So when COVID happened, I was like, I better leave him alone. You told him that COVID has come, so you will come back. Oh, you left him alone and didn't come in? No, see, I had experienced maybe a month or so of just dry. Even before COVID was announced, I was just like, eh, here, there's no hope. That's how my girl used to tell me. I was walking in town. I saw another spot there. I was thinking, maybe I imagine I'm tough here. The whole day, she just sits there. The whole day, nobody has come. Every day is like that. That's a good employee. I know. That's a good employee. What do you think is the one financial... What's the thing that most people underestimate when it comes to fashion? Production. Production cost. You know, it's very different when you're importing and the thing is already made. It's just the price that it is. But I think something that's taken time for me to learn is... Like this one. Yes. You have to think about the Uzi that you'll use, the buttons that you'll use, the zip that you'll use, the tailor's time, the electricity. There's so many things that you have to consider that you need to account for when you price. So I think in terms of pricing, because I normally see Made in Kenya brands, some of them are very fairly priced. I'm like, how are you guys paying your workers? Yeah, and I believe in fair wages, especially respecting people's time. Yeah. So I think production costs is something that maybe not many brands think about, especially when they open a workshop. And they have employees, yeah. Maybe it's because maybe they just want to meet overhead. They're not thinking. Yeah. I don't know. But that's one. And then with fashion, I think just trying to create a unique brand, unique pieces that are just known as you. There's been a lot of... What do I say? Copy. Yes. Copy. Actually, that's something I wanted to ask. Yeah. Now it is. I'll see a dress. This one is someone who has made it. I'll see the same dress with someone else. Yeah. I'm like, who? Okay, she said me it's bad. Yeah. But why are we not being creative? Yeah. All of you, mulilala. I know. I thought of the same. There's no way. There's no way. In fact, that's what led me to making this print. Because I was feeling like we're all buying from the same suppliers. We all know where we get our fabric. You buy a nice print, then you see another brand has launched a collection with it. You're just like, guys, we're going to have the same print. The same design. Watch out for print. Design. Design, design. So it makes sense when you say you're starting from scratch. Yeah. Building your own fabric. Exactly. So I want us to be an affordable luxury brand. Can you put affordable and luxury in the same sentence? Yes, if you compare like, let's say, proper designers abroad versus the prices that we have, we are very affordable. Oh, okay. If you compare, okay, okay, okay. So, I know as a designer, you've created something. There's something you've created. You liked it, but you didn't sell. Is there? Yes, many. What can I say? What leads to that decision? Because if I like this thing, like this one, you're saying it was just for the runway. You liked it. I love it. What dictated that decision of not selling this piece? By the way, I don't even know. But now that you've said it, it will come. But the ones that have not made it, maybe like a challenge that we have as a fashion industry is lack of... sufficient fabric for all the brands that are now doing made in Kenya so maybe one day you go and you find okay this fabric is available very nice the next day you go and then you know like for us we we also buy second-hand fabric so second-hand means exactly so that can also whether there are many collections that we had planned to do we just go Go back, that public is not there. Which is sad. Another one could be maybe it's not viable for the market. Because also Kenyans are very safe. You know, we're not like West Africans who can really go all out in terms of fashion. So you have to make something that people will actually buy and wear. And sometimes, by the way, we test. We do a lot of tests. Yes, before we... Release or even put it at village market. We see where people buy this. We have a few of our customers come and try on. We test in different sizes, how it will look on a size 20, how it will look on a size 8, size 6. Then you look, hey, this design, I don't know if it can work. So that is what will influence your decision. Yeah. And do you feel like, I love the way you've said Kenyans play it safe. Yeah, we do. You feel like we really, we are not yet ready to be, okay. It just takes a few people to pioneer. Yes, exactly. But I think we're making more effort. It's not like Kitambo. We're trying. Yeah, but also us as fashion brands, we have to give you guys... Options. Yes. You've not tried us. We're trying you. Try us. This one. Namsipolunua. I'll bring the box to your house, the box of blazers. I'll bring the box to your house, the box of blazers. I know. I know. So it's things like this. Someone might look at it and say, hey, those sleeves are so big. But someone like you maybe. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. So I also love experimenting and trying and even just putting out things that I like too bad too bad. If you guys don't like it, I hope that you do. But that's part of the creative process because it also makes it authentic to me. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to just release things that you guys like and me, I don't like the clothes I sell. Yeah. But is there a market outside Kenya? Yes, we ship worldwide. So do you target them or you just target the Kenyan market? No, we target them as well. So there's something we might not like, then we don't like it. Exactly, yeah. So you'll see, you know, like if you go to our website, we have the essentials. Then we have the very creative, fun fashion pieces for the fashion lovers like you, Sele. This one, you know, I like it. What has the Kenyan market taught you? In matters of fashion. I like that you said they are safe, not like South Africans. What else? What has the Kenyan market taught me? There is room for everyone. Yeah, there is enough room for everyone. I think initially when I started, we were countable brands. But even as we have grown, I found that there is customers for everyone. That's true. Yeah, there is customers for everyone. So if you see another brand open, don't feel like, oh my God, now people will stop buying from me. No, they will still buy from you. And there is a reason why they buy from you. I think it's also taught me to have a niche and just focus on that. The right customers will come to you. And what else has the fashion industry taught you? That you have to be passionate. Honestly, if I was not passionate, I don't think I'd be here 13 years later. 13 years later, I see. That's how you might see a brand opens today, closes tomorrow. Because you don't have the passion. They did it because someone else was doing it. Exactly. You have to have the passion. Because that's what will keep you when elections are happening, when mandamano is happening, you don't know where the rent is coming from. Those are real situations that happen. What happens by the day mandamano is coming? People don't buy. So how do you deal with that? You just keep advertising. You just keep moving. You keep moving and hope that next month will be better. I feel like that's business. You just stay hopeful. You're just like hoping, hoping, hoping. And there are times when it's so nice. It's like, oh my God, thank God I did this. This is a lot of fun. This is giving me all the profits I need. But there are times you're like, where will I make it? But you have to. You just have to. Ooh. I love how you're smiling. You're just very, very happy. Are there times you felt like, okay, guys, 18 families, I know you've said they motivate you. But are there times you felt like, okay, 13 years by this, we'll close it. Yeah, often. Often, very often, because it's not always smooth. I feel like that's the lie that's told, you know, quit your job so that you have freedom, time, you control your time. But it builds character and the gym has helped with that as well because it's kept me resilient and disciplined and patient. And then you realize that just because today was bad doesn't mean tomorrow will be bad. So maybe yesterday we had zero sales, but then you find today we have sold everything. Yeah, so you just stay hopeful. I think that's what you have to be. You never lose hope. Never lose hope. That's the worst thing that can happen. Yeah. I think I always just toy with the idea of what if this blows up and blows up to the point of, you know, international standards, where we're in Miami and, you know, and that's a possibility you never know which piece will get you there. So you just have to keep trying and keep the faith. What has been your, I know you've dealt with customers, online customers. Thank you so much. What has been the most surprising online, surprising customer experience? When you asked me what the Kenyan industry has taught me, that's what I should have started with. The kind of customers! What? Hey. We've been character developed. Not a Twitter thread or going viral on Twitter. What I ordered versus what I got. And it's a totally different body shape. So we have dealt with so many things. You know, Kenyans, the interesting thing is they're very quick. To, what do you call it, counsel. Yeah, counsel culture. Counsel culture. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. They're very quick to cancel, yeah, to cancel a small brand, but a big brand, they'll forgive you a hundred times. Really? Yeah. So I've had many, not many, a few instances of just you wake up in the morning and someone has just ranted on stories and maybe it's a situation that was out of your control. Maybe the rider just disappeared or something like that. You're thinking the dress has already been delivered. Yeah, we've had very tough customers, but we've had very good customers as well, who've grown with us all these years. And I love that. You see that council culture you've mentioned, there's also a founder who said the same thing. You find... By the way, that happens. You're like, what? You should have just addressed me then we try. Yeah, exactly. They'll go and write a review but on call, they're very nice to you. You're like, am I talking to the same person? I know. It's crazy. It's easier to type. You know it's easier to type when they meet you. Very different people. But it's so, so true. You've experienced that as well? Yeah. Yeah, like they can type, you know, this is, you know, this is your gadget. You have freedom to do whatever you want. You just type whatever. But when they meet you first, they can't even ask or even complain or give the feedback that they wanted to give. Like, you know, I would help you. Yeah, so, so true. In fact, I respect the customers who will come to me directly. Even if it's in my personal DM and say this thing, this situation frustrated me and I just wanted to let you know. At least I can do something. Yeah, exactly. And it's feedback that can help us improve. In fact, I love feedback because that's the only way we'll improve. But yeah, ranting on Twitter, I was like, hi. But I mean, again, I think it's the price we have to pay for being in such. And you've mentioned you go to the gym. So that keeps you in those tough times. Yes. So it helps you be disciplined. Patient with even those customers. So gym is also a way of where you cope with mental load. It's gotten me through the most toughest of times. Personally and business-wise, I feel like the gym keeps me grounded. It's the one thing that just, you know... Yeah, and also the endorphins are good. If I don't go to the gym by then, I feel like something is missing. Or you're moody. Yes, you're moody. You just want to sleep. That's true. That's me. That's you as well. That's me. Yeah, working out really helps with that, keeping up the energy. Do you have any plans of maybe expanding? Ending. Going to... We'll find you in Ghana or come to Makueni. Amen. Or Makueni. You have a mall there? I think he's getting more cool. Like a factory in our house. Employing more women tailors. Nice, I love that. Do you feel like as a Kenyan brand founder, do you feel like? You get the support from us, the customers that you need. Do we really support that Kenyan brand? Or do we just keep importing? Do we just leave our own Kenyans? Thank you. What can you say about us? You guys are doing well. I can say that you've really embraced Made in Kenya brands. In fact, there are many customers who shop with us just because we are Made in Kenya. I love that. In fact, when they walk into Village Market, they're like, You guys are Made here. They are possibly going to shop with you just because of that. So I really appreciate that Kenyans are now embracing and loving their identity more. I love that. Anything you can tell the Kenyan brand founder, owners, maybe in fashion, you can tell them, okay, I know you're not entitled to advise them, but maybe you can just encourage you as that community of Kenyan-made brands, something you can stop doing or keep doing. Yeah. I'd say I'd love for us to collaborate more. Yes, that's something that's also in the pipelines. We'll be collaborating with a few Made in Kenya brands. And when you come together, great things happen. For sure. So I think just supporting each other, not stealing designs. If you see someone has a design, just let them have it. Even if you're already... But then they say you're not the original of the idea. Yeah, it's true. But yeah, just collaboration, collaboration and just supporting each other. And also feel like if they can be creative, you can have a lot of designs. Don't wait for Zia to think, then you all jump into that one. Yeah, exactly. But at the end of the day, I know we're all here to grow our businesses and there's enough for everyone. Thank And you've insisted that the market is enough. It's enough. Remember when Rihanna was launching Fenty, there was this whole thing of, if when you go to a bread aisle, how many brands are there? So many. And they're all selling bread. So I think ever since I saw that, my mindset also shifted. you. Like, imagine there's enough. That's true. And we're not just thinking locally. We're thinking internationally. Imagine how many women there are in the world, leave alone Kenya. Even if a hundred of them shop from you, there's no a hundred other women who can shop from another brand. That's true. So I think that's the one thing people need to shift their mindset on. See that we are many beer designer. The cake is too big. Whether you're joining content creation today, someone who joined 10 years ago, we can. Followers are there to consume your content. Exactly. Just do your thing. Don't feel like we are competing with so-and-so. The cake is... The cake is too big. For someone watching Zia for the first time and they have an idea, they want to start doing Kenyan. Of course, I know producing Kenyan brands is very expensive. But they want to start maybe from up on Gikomba. They just want to start. Maybe a few tips you can tell them. Because you've told them the cake is enough for everyone for sure. The market is big. A few tips for them to start. The first one is just start. There are so many ideas that have died in the grave, so let yours not be one of them. Just start. You learn as you go. Fail forward. Fail forward is a big one because you're going to learn a lot of things once you start. You won't learn when you're just at home writing and writing your goals or hoping. You have to start to learn. And be consistent, be consistent, look for mentors, business mentors who can advise you, who can handhold you and yeah, the world is your oyster. You can dream as big as you want, as big as you want and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Thank you so much. Has entrepreneurship changed your, like your journey in a way? Yes. Were you this? No. In fact, I'm sure my former colleagues just look at me and they're like, who is she? For sure. It has changed me in so many ways. Yeah. Oh, okay. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed the conversation for sure. Oh, thank you. I love it when founders somehow speak the same language. Like there was a founder here before and he said the same thing. Start. Really? You know, it sounds very cliche when you tell someone start. But honestly, come up. So when we say start, we say Take that time with you until Gikosh. You will have a sponge today and apples. Well, that's so, so true. And start small. Start where you are. Don't wait at it to get at it. When I get 50K, that's when I'm going, no. When I can get to a physical branch. Or when I get to this number of followers. No, just start where you are. Yeah, with those 20 followers, you can use two tops today, you make two tops tomorrow. Next, they will tell their friends, eat top, I'm on a page. Organic. Organically. And I feel like organically growth is just the best. The best. It might take long, but slow and sure. Yeah. So, guys, just start. The founder keeps on saying, just start. So you will ask yourself, why are they all speaking the same language? Just start. What is this start? So true. Thank you so much, Zia. And now let's tell Zia what it means. We won't release you until we get to our last start. Thank you. Thank you. Like we will tell us at the end. If it was at a soundbite, what is it called? The promotion? It was called Pondani. You should have told them that. You know what she said? Yes. Okay, my full names are Zipporah, I knew you were not ready for that one. Oh, Zipporah, Zipporah, Zipporah, Chepkemi, Bet, Nyamari. my Imagine. So they called you Zia? They called now in high school because actually growing up, I used to feel like Zipporah is for an old lady. God. No, stick to Zia. Even me, I will tell you, stick to Zia. So I told my mom, don't worry, when I reach 60, I'll take back Zipporah. No, but what was it? Zippy, we don't have any bad thing. It's a very nice name. It's all love. Oh God, I don't look like a Zipporah. You look like a Zia. I do. For now let us stick with Zia. You can keep it between the two of us. I make for you a jacket. I'm not going to say I can't cut it. Oh, my God. But thank you so much Zipi for coming. Oh good! Oh no! Guys, until next time, bye-bye! From me and Zippy! Oh no! Bye! Bye.