Carla Gugino Interview_ A Version of Verna Was Cut from Fall of the House of Usher

I'm gonna show off how much of a fall the House of Usher nerd I am right now. Cause I think the last time we spoke, I can't remember if you were in the room yet, but I might've mentioned placing a bid in the auction. Oh, yes you did. You certainly did. I arrived back in New York. I have Perry Usher's watch. And it's like, I mean, it doesn't work obviously, but it's really nice and fancy. It is really snazzy. My family was like, why don't you wear it? I'm like, cause it's not size to my, it's enormous. I didn't feel like it read that big on him. Like it's gigantic. I know. And it's like my little like dainty wrist. It's enormous. I don't know, but very, very cool. And then all the proceeds for the auction went to the Safe Project, an organization dedicated to stopping the addiction fatality epidemic. So if anyone out there just wants to donate, even though the auction isn't ongoing, you can do that. Just Google it and the website comes up very quickly. All right. So dicey questions. You get three rolls on this dice tower behind me and whatever random questions I roll for you, that is where we start. I actually know the answer to this question, but I like the story and I want our audience to know, what is the origin of the one tattoo you have? Oh, wow. Well, you may have a slightly, you'll know the filmic origin, but I got this tattoo when I was 17. It's a butterfly. Let's see if I can do this. That tattoo? Oh, it's lovely. Also most impressive that you could do that. If I showed the one on my foot right now, it would be an epic disaster. I'm not sure that it didn't blur out, but so I got it when I was 17 in Venice, California. And I felt like, you know, what was the sort of symbol that I could have in my body for the rest of my life? And then nature of transformation, you know, I'm a bit of a hippie. So the nature of transformation was something I felt like, okay, cool. I'll never get bored of that. That's a good reminder always. And then yes, I was doing the son-in-law and Flea of the Red Hot Chili Peppers was my tattoo artist. And I was gonna, I said, I don't wanna use my tattoo. I don't wanna use my tattoo. I'm gonna use another tattoo because that feels like it's not, then it's not the character, you know? And then I thought, well, I've never had it on camera at that point. I hadn't. And so it felt like, okay, for Rebecca, like let's do this thing. And that is, and then that movie ended up being such a huge cult following for so many years that I was like, oh, well now my tattoo is totally not under the radar because everybody knows it from that movie. That's so cool. Would you ever consider getting another one? And if so, what movie or TV inspired tattoo would you choose next? Oh. I think about this a lot. Yeah, that's, I wanna know your answer too. It's funny. I have never actually thought about doing a, because I have had the honor and sort of, it's always sort of surprising when on Instagram, the fan will send a tattoo of a character that I've played on their body. It feels so such, so like an honor and also like, oh God, you might get tired of that after a while and somehow I'll feel responsible, but it is always such a, it's just awesome. So I did want to get, at one point I really wanted to get a snake because I thought that would be very cool, but then I sort of, I'm old enough that it was like before I wanted on my lower back and then there became like the tramp stamp sort of a situation and then that turned into something else. Finally, by the time that I was like, I could do it, I sort of lost the luster for it. So I would say, gosh, what's yours? I want your answer. I have two movie ones. The one that a lot of people know about, there's a video about it somewhere on YouTube. I met Samuel L. Jackson and he wrote down my favorite line from Jurassic Park, hold on to your butts. And I took that piece of paper. I didn't get it on my butt. It's on like my side of my leg, but in his handwriting, it says hold on to your butts and I love it. That's amazing. I somehow missed that. Yeah. I thought you were going to say a line from Snakes on the Plane. I mean, that movie is watched and rewatched quite a bit in my circle of friends. He's got, well, Sebastian Gutierrez, who I know quite well, wrote it. So I also have a soft spot for it. Okay, so what would be my move? I feel like I have to think on this and by the end of the interview, I'll have something for you because now I feel like to me, see, that feels like on my body for the rest of my life. That's where the Virgo in me comes in. I'm like, it's hard to make a decision. It's hard to make a decision. I'll suggest a minimalist idea. Okay. A raven. Nice. I mean, nice and small, you know? Yes, yes. That way it's not too crazy, too big. It's true. And yet, because I played the raven, that would feel like a personal, like I feel like it should be somebody else's project. I mean, that's fair. That's fair if you want to go that route. Did you know they came out with the raven emoji this year? I feel somehow like it was a personal, I don't know. I feel like I feel involved with that somehow. You probably shouldn't have told me that. Now I'm going to be sending random raven emojis to all of my friends. I'm going to be like, what are you doing right now? All right. Second roll on the tower. What is your absolute favorite part of the acting process? Whether it's hitting the set for the first time, rehearsing, putting on your costume, you name it. But then I also want the opposite. Not necessarily your least favorite, but a part of the process, a part of your craft where you still see room to grow for yourself and you're excited to tackle that. Right. I always see room to grow in every area, actually. What I was going to say that's interesting is if you're looking at film slash TV and then theater, it's interesting because different parts of the process, I think when I first started, because I started in film and television and then theater became a big part of my life as well. When I was introduced to table work in a play, just the amount of table work that you do, the fact that you just sit down before any of you ever get up and you actually start to discuss text and you generally have a dramaturge there who is also pulling up really interesting historical, the information that you can be researching and giving context that you may not have seen, that ended up being just such a welcome process because I feel like so often that's done by myself. And I'm with a computer or books or whatever, and I'm trying to sort of figure out what I need to bring to this character and what I need to know that I don't know about the world. So that's always felt like a little bit of a fun, but solitary process. So that was super cool to be able to do with a group of people, because I think to answer your question, getting to collaborate in whatever way with other, I am just another, I love, I feel like there's that incredibly magic moment when you're doing a take or a sequence in film and you have every, and certainly on stage, but you have every single person at the top of their game. And then there's the magic that comes only from that, that you could never create yourself. So that for me is just like heaven. I mean, that's what I just, I crave so much. And it's funny because I watched some of your, which is like, you know, I love Kate Siegel, obviously, and you guys had such a great interview recently. And when she was talking about monologues, and of course, it's so perfect that she's also with Mike Lannigan, who writes extraordinary monologues. But I was thinking, in fact, for me, that's not the, I love a great monologue, but my true place, like my happy place, is scenes with actors that raise my game and a director that I can, you know, I think at this point in my career, I can direct myself if I need to. I can probably, you know, there's many young directors that I work with that I might know more than, you know, than they do because they're at the beginning of what they're doing in their process and still learning a lot. But I have to say that that feeling of having all the preparation, knowing you have a really strong director and a group of thespians around you, and just being able to create magic and find that magic is my favorite part of the process. Oh, you're gonna like a couple of questions I have coming up today. All right, so that's favorite. What is, again, not necessarily the least favorite, but a part of the process? Yeah, no, but where, I think, you know, the challenging, I memorize well and, you know, and people are always like, I don't know, how do you, especially with a play, how do you learn it all? And that's just, I think, the same thing for all of us. It's just practice, but it does, but I'm not a photographic memory at all. So I think the tedious work for me is the actual work in which I write down my lines, I record stuff, I walk with it. You know, it's really like, it's not like, oh, there's no big deal, it really is. It's also the way that I learn if I don't understand a thought of a character, if I'm still sort of putting something on it and I'm not coming from it organically, I won't remember that line, and it's like, ah, there's a key here, there's something I'm not understanding. So that's, I would just say, the most kind of like homework-y part of it, where you're like, oh, everybody else is on vacation and I'm at home for three hours working on that stuff. I have a very similar brain. I was very good at learning languages, but only as far as like studying and memorizing and knowing, knowing, knowing. And I had to put in the work in order to be able to go into class and actually have a conversation. But like, I was doing like hours and hours of homework where, I don't know, it just seemed like other people picked it up fast. I know, totally. No, I know exactly what, I like to think we know it better then, but that just might be trying to make myself feel better. I mean, the way you described it before, I feel like, let's just say like, we memorize and understand the essence in order to be able to play. And that adds two layers there. For sure, for sure. Which is why I've never liked doing procedurals. And I always really appreciate actors who can come in on the day of, get in the hair and makeup chair, pick up their, and just sort of do it. And they've forgotten it by the afternoon. Like, it's a really incredible skill. It's just one that I don't memorize that way. I don't process that way, yeah. Any actor who can do a soap opera blows my mind. Every single person I've spoken to where that's their first major credit describes it as like an acting bootcamp. And I totally get it. For sure. Yeah, all right. We have one more role on the tower. We got a one and an eight. What is something you did for a role that now makes you say, real glad I tried that, but I don't ever want to do that again. Wow. Well, I can say that for a movie that I did with Brian De Palma and Nick Cage called Snake Eyes, there was a sequence that used to end the movie that was taken out of the movie entirely. And we were shooting in Montreal in the winter and they needed either Nick or I to be in the tank for this huge tidal wave sequence. And so we were in this big tank, there was a huge tidal wave that hits us and they chose, they said, you know, will you do it? Because the truth is Nick's character is the one who gets hit with the hardest part of the wave and then you'll get hit secondarily, but he'll be able to protect you. So let's put a stunt guy there and have it be you. And, you know, I was like 23, 24 and I was like, absolutely, of course I'll do it. I'm dying to do it. And so we do this crazy stunt where we're just lobbed by this wave. And we, you know, do it a couple of times. Finally, you know, we get it. I get pneumonia. Oh. And then they cut the entire sequence out of the movie. So I was like, well, I'm really glad I went for it. I will still always go for it when I can, but like perhaps, you know, maybe I don't need to do that again. What's up everyone? Welcome back for a brand new edition of Collider Ladies Night. It's probably already obvious that I'm excited about this edition for a multitude of reasons. One, because I'm a big fan of Carla Gugino and two, because I mean, in true Mike Flanagan fashion, I am full out obsessed with the fall of the House of Usher. I can't get enough of the show. That's so awesome. I'm so happy to be here. I love, I love these. I love, I love what you do with these. I love the nature of the conversation and the fact that you are also really interested in what got people to where they are and sort of that whole trajectory. So that makes it really fun. Mine is long, obviously. Your craft fascinates me, especially because it's something that I've never been able to process. I was telling somebody this recently when I was in grad school, they made all of the students, even if they weren't interested in acting, take a directing the actors class where every student had to be directed and direct someone else. And the feeling of being directed it scrambled my brain. I couldn't process it. And it made me appreciate the craft of acting even more than I ever had before. Wow, that's so interesting because I do think, I think that's actually a great, great idea. Every director that I have worked with that I think is strong has done, whether it be acting or not, they have worked in other departments. And I think that all of that allows you to have a language and an understanding of a different person's position. And it's interesting because for me, I have always loved being an interpreter. And I think there's something comforting to me in being given a template. I remember I came, I had a very unusual childhood with a lot of amazing things that have fed me as a person and as an actor, but also just a lot of kind of inconsistent, moved a lot, all of this. So I remember when, and so I was very type A, straight A student, extremely, you know, I'm a perfectionist, that has remained, but as I know you are. Very much so. But may perfectionists unite. And, but I remember going to this first cold reading class. I was 13, a man named Gene Bua in Los Angeles, who's no longer with us. But I got up there and I did this scene and it was the first time I felt like I could lose control in a controlled environment. So there was something about the fact that my job was to lose control. My job was to let go into something. And that truly, I walked out of that class and said, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. Like, it was just an absolute game changer for me. So for some reason, I think maybe the idea of being directed or having parameters like that gave me more freedom. I don't know, it was interesting. I kind of get that because every single time I prepare for one of these interviews, I over-prepare and know my roadmap really well so that in the moment I can listen and go off script and just like find our way into whatever we've hit on the moment that I didn't plan for. Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's something about the kind of people that we are or that I, speaking for myself, that I am, which is I love to let go, but I need a place to let go from. That's such a brilliant way to describe it. Yeah, I think therefore preparation is really important to me and then I can release it all. So you already brought up an experience that kind of made you feel free and recognize the appreciation you have for the craft of acting. Now I'm curious about taking the first steps of actually getting into the industry because I always find that it's one thing to say to yourself, I wanna be an actor, I wanna make this my career, but it's another to believe you can actually do it. So I wanna hit that from two angles right now. Can you tell me the very first time on set when you were able to stop and say to yourself, I believe in myself, I believe in my craft, I can do this. But then I also wanna know the first thing that happened professionally that made you say, I have a chance of navigating this wild business and I can make it happen from that perspective as well. When I was around 13, I saw Sophie's Choice and Silkwood both in the same year. And this little known actress, Meryl Streep was in them. I'm the only one she's ever influenced clearly. But no, I was really taken with the fact that I, and this will lead into exactly your two questions, that I was really taken with the fact that there were two women in two environments and coming from two worlds that I had no, I didn't know anything about. And I believed her to be both of them. And I felt like I gained this massive amount of empathy for these people, these people that were just created for me. And I thought, oh, I wanna do that. I wanna do that, I wanna be able to do something that gives people empathy and allows people, and including myself, to see through different people's eyes. So I started in that acting class, cold reading class in Los Angeles. My aunt was Carol Meryl, who was sort of the precursor to Vanna White. She was really a huge influence on me and very much encouraged me to act and actually recommended that particular class because a friend of hers had gone to it. And so in that class, they had managers and agents come to that class. And I was just so incredibly fortunate that within a year of being there, I got an agent. And it was incredible that I sort of was actually auditioning that quickly. And I ended up going to my last two years of high school in a school that was just academics until the early afternoon so I could go and audition in the afternoons. And yeah, which was such a blessing. And my parents were a little like, really, you're such a good student, do you wanna act? Don't you wanna do something more sort of substantial than that? And yet I was such a serious kid that they believed me and they knew I was actually really serious about it. So I started doing like guest stars on TV shows, Wealth, you know, Wealth, not Wealth, Elf and Webster, which became Wealth. I love how you processed it correctly. I knew exactly what you meant. Thank you, thank you. I appreciate that. And yeah, and you know, Who's the Boss? I had one line on Who's the Boss. The Wonder Years, that was like the first sort of significant guest starring role I got. But then when I did True Beverly Hills, it was, which you may have, you know, this is a, I may have said this to you before in the past, but it was the only time I ever lied about my age. And so, you know, I was 16. I said I was 14 to get the role. I eventually fessed up in the middle of filming and the director said, I would not have hired you had I known you were 16. Even though I completely played the role, right? Everybody believed me as a 14 year old, except for that it's the only time I will ever be tall in front of people. So if you look at that picture, it's like, I'm like, yeah, not tall, not a tall person. So, but I will say that was the movie that, that was the movie that allowed me to call my parents and say, I'd been living in Los Angeles already, renting a place and I got emancipated when I was 16, which was right around that time, so that I didn't have to have adults on set with me. But I basically said, I think I have enough money to support, to start to support myself so I don't need them to help me financially. And so that was a really huge turning point for me, that movie. And it was when I knew that I might be doing this as a, for a living. And then navigating the business, you know, I was the opposite of like the kids who went out and partied and, you know, sort of took advantage of Hollywood in that regard. I was really just, you know, nose to the grindstone taking, studying. And I also had a strange thing that happened because I was gonna go to university and went and looked at possibilities and stuff and ended up getting an offer on Falcon Crest, which was like sort of a big deal at that time. And it was a series regular and it was, you know, a very adult role, though I played, this is perfect, by the way, I played a 18 year old bride of a very wealthy man who I killed with a letter opener. Yes, so as one does. Exactly what I would expect. Yes, I was a virgin bride, of course. So in any case, that was, that sort of did end up being that then I just started working consistently and that ended up sort of being my school. So I guess it's sort of that aspect of it came somewhat naturally once I was doing it because I was so committed to doing it. And I think that now for better or worse, you know, it is what I've done my whole life. For better. I mean, I don't have a lot of skills. Oh, and we'll get to a crowning achievement of the for better in a little bit. Whether it was one of the titles you just named or something that came later, can you tell me which film or TV credit you think put into focus for you the most, the types of stories you wanted to tell going forward and also the types of onset environments you wanted to be a part of? Well, it's interesting because the Buccaneers, which was a mini series for the BBC that I did based on an Edith Wharton novel that they just, I guess, remade actually. I'm hearing great things too. I haven't been able to watch, but it's been highly recommended. I know, I really wanna see it. It's funny because I was realizing that with that and the new Spy Kids that it's very strange to have been doing this for long enough that people are like, are you in the original or the new one? I'm like, I guess I'm in the original, which is cool too. But in any case, so the Buccaneers was something that was in terms of what I set out to do, period, drama, Edith Wharton, England. We got to shoot at Ealing Studios and at Castle Howard where they had done Brideshead Revisited. So for me, that's actually, it was funny when I did like Spin City with Michael J. Fox, I couldn't believe that they were asking me to do a sitcom. It turns out that I really do like comedy, but I had thought of myself as a serious actress in a very specific way. And I think over time, what's happened is I've just realized that I really love to do it all. And now that I do plays as well and theater and the first play I did on Broadway was until I was 32 years old. So that has really, every medium helps the other one. That's what's so interesting. I feel like I've learned so much from, I feel like my film work fed into my theater work. My theater work now really sort of threads into the film work in a way that it's a little bit gives you that bootcamp feeling because when you're on a stage, it really is the actor's medium, whereas film is the director's medium. You do everything you do and then you give it away and that's why you wanna trust that person. So yeah, so I would say that the Buccaneers was actually the first thing that felt like I had this very significant role and I was also leading the whole thing and there was something about that that felt like I was able to know what I needed to do to tell that story. And I think that was the first time that feeling came to me. Because you just touched on the amount of variety you've been able to do over the years. What do you attribute that to? Because this is an industry that has a habit of boxing someone into one thing, maybe one specific genre. And because of prepping for this conversation and getting a bird's eye view of your filmography, you've been boxed into anything. You've done a little of everything. Right, it's true and I appreciate you saying that. It was a conscious decision when I was really young. At the time, there were many people who were super successful that I wanted to be like, that I thought, oh, I want their career, this and that. And all of a sudden I thought, what I really want is a really long career and I wanna be doing this until I die. And I want to not have people know me so much as only one thing, because then it precludes you from disappearing into another part. And I got a really a lot of pushback about it just from people that I worked with and Hollywood in general, because it made me confusing to people, to be like the mom in Spy Kids and then the lesbian parole officer in Sin City, or to be, it's like, I can come up with a number of sort of people, like things that were sort of confusing to people. And I think that, but somebody, for example, like Mike Flanagan, like Sebastian Gutierrez, like Robert Rodriguez. I mean, I can name many people that I have worked with that understand it's why I love them as filmmakers that actually actors by nature are transformational. You know, there are certain movie stars that we love, all of us love to just go watch be themselves on screen. And that is amazing. And that's a rare sort of confluence of elements. But in regards to, I really wanted to be able to disappear into a character. And so it, I could have become famous much earlier, had I sort of made different decisions in that way. And I don't think it was until about 10 years ago that it became recognized as a body of work, you know, as opposed to sort of like, oh wait, who is she? I don't quite understand what we can, how we can fit her into something. Is there a particular title you would credit with sparking that change and making people view it more as a body of work for you? Yeah, let me think about this. I think there was sort of a series of things that added up to, I think there was like, Entourage made such a big splash and then San Andreas was like a whole different kind of action movie scenario. And then I do think for sure my theater work because for whatever reasons, I was so gratefully embraced by that community. And so that I think allowed people to go, oh, you know, I think there's an unfair idea about actors that start in LA and film and television actors and that there's not necessarily that kind of like work ethic that comes from theater. And so, you know, it felt very gratifying to me to sort of just have that aspect dispelled, whether it was my own thinking or sort of true. And then, you know, I would say it even went up all the way till this character called Jet in a show Jet that Sebastian wrote and directed and that we produced and made together that I would say that that was also sort of like all of these things leading up to, and certainly Gerald's game in The Haunting of Hill House. So like, I think all of that together just painted such people were like, oh, I'm getting it now and maybe we can throw anything her way. And that's pretty much what took me over 30 years to try to get people to do, because that's all I want is opportunities to play great characters. I mean, that's, you know, with people I respect. You bringing up Gerald's game makes me want to jump to that and Mike, but before I do that, my coworkers would be very, very angry if I did not squeeze in at least one spy kids question. I actually, I have two here that might be worth asking. First, I heard somewhere that you almost didn't accept that role. Why didn't you want it at first? And then what changed that made you commit to the project? Okay, this is actually, because I was gonna say spy kids also figures into this previous question because I had been working on the show called Chicago Hope, this medical show and in Los Angeles, and I had just decided I was going to learn Spanish. And I had committed to this teacher that was outrageously expensive for me, especially at that time. But you got 10 days with him in a room. He was an older gentleman then, so he's no longer with us, but he was, it was 10 days in a room and you could just do funnily enough, because you were talking about language at the beginning. It wasn't about writing it in any way. It was only spoken language. And several people that I knew had worked with him. One of them being Emma Thompson, who then spoke beautiful French. It turns out she's just a genius. So no one should be comparing themselves to Emma Thompson. Why doesn't that surprise me? Yeah, so that was that, you know, but I started these lessons. I was a day and a half into it and I got this message saying like, Robert Rodriguez would like to meet you for this movie spy kids. And Antonio Banderas and I had done a movie called Mammy Rhapsody years before that David Frankel directed with Sarah Jessica Parker and a bunch of amazing people. And so I thought, oh, maybe Antonio had suggested me for it, but I don't know. And so anyway, this is such a great story. Actually, it's such a, you know, there's so many bad like mean Hollywood stories. It's such a beautiful one. So basically it turns out that I was way too young for the role because I was supposed, I was 27 and I was supposed to have been a spy and for like 10 years and then had kids that were now, you know, nine and 11 or whatever. So I'm 27 years old. So Robert gets on the phone with me and he says, but you have to fly to New York because I need to meet you because we're actually shooting. We've been shooting for two weeks. I feel like I'm trying to find a mother for my child. You know, Antonio and the kids have been shooting. And so, yeah, because the person who was gonna play it had gotten pregnant and couldn't do it. And so I had to let go of my non-refundable Spanish classes with this man and take this risk, not knowing if I was gonna get the role or not. Get on a plane, got on a red eye. I met this, this person came up to me on the plane and said, are you Carly Gugino? And I said, yes. And she said, I said, who are you? She said, oh, I'm the costume designer. I'm coming to pull clothes for you. So then I thought, hmm, maybe I am getting this. And so I arrive in the hotel room. Robert and his wife at the time who was also producing the movie, Elizabeth Avion never flew together. They always had a superstition about that with the kids. So they would always fly on separate planes. So she had gotten in on an earlier flight and she said, he's not here yet, but let me give you the new draft of the script. So I sat in the hotel room, I read the script. I thought it was so beautiful and funny and lovely. And at that time, there was just no family film where the parents would be sexy and cool but the kids were the heroes and all of that. And it came from such a genuine place. That was an environment I would say on a set that I would love, that really taught me so much because it was truly like family. And I think that that also made me want for film sets that are like family. And so that was very authentically that. And so he showed me, when he got there, we talked, he put together a reel of the stuff that had already been filmed. And I was sitting there with him. And at this point, I'm like, I just wanna help this guy cast the best person for this role. And I think I'm too young for it. And so I'm like, who do you think you want to be the mom? And he said, I think I want it to be you. And I said, really, but I think I'm too young for it. I don't know if I should do this. And he said, look, my mom has had so many kids. Like, I think if we, she was really young when she started having kids. I think if we do this right, no one will ever question it. And so I remember him picking up the phone and calling Elizabeth who was in another hotel room because she had left to a different room. And he said, so I want Carla to do it. And I heard, ah, on the other side of the line. So I guess she'd been, you know, rooting for me. But it turns out that I had never been on a single list because I was 10 years younger than anyone else that they were looking at. And one of the kids who I had, they were twin brothers. So the boy who plays Junie has a twin brother, doesn't look anything like him, but we had done Season for Miracles. We had done a Christmas movie, Hallmark. And they went with a video cassette at the time, knocked on Robert's door. And it was a video cassette of that movie. And they said, this is who we want to be the mom. And literally he played it, but because Robert is always like has ADD and he's onto another thing. He just watched the movie super fast. And he was like, she does seem young. And then there was a Q&A at the end. And he said, you seem so much older than your years in this Q&A. And I thought, I think she could maybe pull this off. So that was, so I got, that's how I got that job. Instincts were spot on there. And I still, I think about that all the time. I can't believe the long lasting impression that movie has made and the fact that so many generations continue to pass it down and now share it together. Totally, it's incredible. I mean, and you know, I think also, cause I don't do a bunch of stuff to my face, not for any good reasons or anything, I just don't. But I think I just look similar still, but older, but similar. So I get people all, I mean, every day, it's like every day somebody will come up to me about Spy Kids in particular. I think because like you said, it's just a generational thing. This is a special one. And it was, and it was, I think what is important to say too though, that because there's always a pro and con to any decision we make, I would never not do that movie. It was an incredible experience. I'm proud to be so proud, only pluses. But I will say that for a lot of my, it did hinder, people thought I was much older than I was. So there were definitely movies where it would be like, you know, the George Clooney movie or Brad Pitt or whatever and Matt Damon and it would, and they would be like, well, you might be a little on the older side. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm younger than them. Like, how did this happen? You know? So that was an interesting thing, you know, again, just in the, but it did dispel me. I was never afraid to play a mom again because I was like, well, I did it when I was way too young to do it. So, you know. I get it. I mean, every single thing comes with, I mean, not necessarily a double-edged sword, but there's so many factors that go into, you know, paving the way to what could come next. Which I think is cool. You know, it's like what life is. I mean, it makes it more exciting. I feel like if that wasn't the case, every decision we would make, like you would either feel less passionate about making a choice or ultimately the road would be boring. And I don't want that. Yeah, no, exactly. Jumping into Usher full force-ish. First, I just want to ask you a broader question about Mike because you've worked together quite a few times at this point. Do you remember the very first thing that happened that made you think to yourself, this isn't just a good filmmaker for me to work with right now, but this is someone who I could have a long lasting collaboration with? Yeah. Gerald's game, you know, do you know the story that it came to me so late in the game? And it was very much like, yeah, what Bruce's experience was on Usher, different circumstances, but similar timeframe, like two weeks before. And it was Mike's absolute non-bullshit confidence and clarity, more than confidence, clarity as a storyteller that made me think I'm going to do something that could just be absolutely mortifying, you know, being chained to a bed with very little preparation and all of these things. But boy, this filmmaker, I want to be there to help him tell his tale. And I would say that within two days on the set, I thought, oh, I would love to keep collaborating with this person. You know, I don't know that we can ever quantify what brings us together with collaborators where we're able to, you know, I'm in awe of him as a storyteller and a filmmaker. I also think he has this incredible passion and sort of inability to not do it. And I feel that very much that way about what I do. So I think that that's an area in which I connect as an artist. But also, again, maybe there's that, you know, something that's so significant about him as a filmmaker and a writer and a storyteller is that he has a very clear sense of what he wants to do. And, you know, you and I were speaking about the gentle perfectionist aspect, but that he has a very strong sense. But because of that, there's this sort of openness to every idea I've ever given him, he's taken very seriously and either felt like, oh, you know, that might not be the way in, or, oh, I really like that. And in every turn, he has taken it to a place that was better than what I had expected in terms of on a writing level or, you know. So to me, I guess that's what I always want from collaborators is that we can keep upping each other and we can keep sort of, and it becomes this, again, going back to that collaborative thing where there's something that is much bigger than the sum of its parts. And so for me, and it's also his heart. He has a, I think I'm interested in filmmakers too who actually believe in human beings and connectivity. And, you know, Usher obviously has a much darker wit and it's like sort of has more bite than his other work preceding that, I think. But it still comes around to giving people a chance to make a different decision. And I love that about him. And so that's been, that for me is like, those are stories I wanna tell. So I don't know if you remember this with this much specificity, but because you were just talking about the idea of, you know, giving him an idea and then him upping it and then maybe you upping it again, can you give us an example of something like that in the fall of the House of Usher that we could see in the finished product now? Well, what's interesting is I can give it to you. Let me think about the fall of the House of Usher. I can do that. With the Haunting of Hill House, I can give you a very specific point, which is- I will happily talk about that show too. When he wrote Olivia, I loved her. She also was, you know, she doesn't figure too prominently in the start of the show because there's such a mystery. She's sort of shrouded in mystery and then we begin to understand her journey. But that was one where I was trying to figure out why the kids would not clock that she's losing her mind. You know, there's no distractions. They're all in this one house. And I am unfortunately a migraine sufferer, but I don't- I was very into Oliver Sacks' Hallucinations for that character in that show, his book. But I kind of thought there, you know, I felt like if she had these certain kinds of migraines because she was an architect. So a lot of like Lewis Carroll, like certain people who have the kind of migraines where you actually see in patterns. So it's different than an aura. And I thought, oh, that might be interesting because that would be- because oftentimes people have them. It's very good for the work. They channel it into being, you know, into their work. So I was like, well, that's interesting for her as an architect. And if she had these migraines, then also the kids would think she's just having one of those. And that would be sort of a- So I sort of said, I think this would be a really interesting aspect to have with her. And I also think it's so cool because you've written in certain ways. She enters so many doors. I see her like she's in a frame all the time. And it's almost like this, she's dead, but she's in this frame for these kids. And so that's how they see her. And so then Michael Fimignari also was like, and Mike was like, it was like, he didn't realize he had written it, but it was there in the script. It wasn't, I didn't, you know, but the migraine thing wasn't. So then he sort of went, so he came back and said, well, here, here's some scenes. Like, this is, what if we do this? And he had incorporated it seamlessly in such a beautiful way. And that became a huge part of the character and part of the visuals of certain aspects of the show in regards to her. And so that was a really cool way in which it was just taken. You know, it was a seed of an idea and then he ran with it and then Fimignari ran with it. And then I was able to like latch onto that and run with it further. And, you know, so that. With Usher, I would say that what was interesting is Mike didn't delineate any of the accents or any of the places that any of these characters were from these incarnations of Verna. So that became a really cool collaborative process. And, you know, he was worried about making sure as was I that it didn't become any kind of like accent show where you're distracted by that. And so the nice thing is we were super simpatico on that, but I did feel that with that many different incarnations, if we didn't have different voices to some of them or different body gestures, movements, we were gonna have a really hard time differentiating. And it would become kind of a wash. So I picked the ones that I thought would have a different way of speaking and be from a different place. And then I would just go into his office and like do it for him and be like, what do you think? You know, what do you think of this? What do you think of this idea? And then I would send him, you know, samples or, and it was that, and that was an amazing process because again, he was like, that feels right to me. That one I'm not sure about yet. That one, you know, this one, yes, definitely. You know, so that was, it was a really cool. So he gave me the freedom to find them and then he is the final say no matter what. So then again, that's sort of that great circular thing that keeps going, building. Many follow-up questions. The first one that came to mind is which incarnation of Verna were you most looking forward to playing when you first went into production? But then I wanna know the incarnation that wound up surprising you and wound up being more creatively fulfilling to explore and play with than you ever could have imagined at the start. The one that I was the most excited about, I think initially was, was Verna with the blonde hair in, in the second episode. And it was so, I wish there had been more scenes with her because I just found her to be, I found that monologue to be fascinating. And I felt like that was, you could see the many lives she had lived with different royalty in the past somehow. Like somehow that one just felt to me like there was this delicious, I could almost like smell the sense in the room. And it was, so that one I was really excited. Also because she was the most overtly glamorous and that was just fun. Anytime I can get to become a blonde sort of bombshell character, why not? So that one I was really looking forward to and it was, and that was actually the first scene that I shot with Mike in the, yeah, that was the first one we shot. Cause I had done something with him and Yari since they were taking, you know, different episodes. So that was really cool and fun to do. The animal shelter worker ended up being, I just fell in love with playing her. I just love her no nonsense. The fact that she thinks animals, like you're speaking of your cat, are far superior to people. Cause they are. Yeah, exactly, clearly. And also because she was so fun, like when she ends up being able to sort of become feral and much more like a cat, you know, even physically. It was such an interesting juxtaposition between this Midwestern person and this sort of like primal. So there was a really cool combo in that character. But there wasn't one, you know, we also have a character that in a little fun Easter egg moment that is not in the movie, in the show anymore, except for you'll see me as a homeless person when Mary's character goes back to the bar in modern day. And if you look down, you'll see there's like a sort of the road, you'll see there's a homeless woman sitting there on the side of the road moving. And that's me and that's Verna. And she used to come over and in fact sing old Lanzine. And it was a really cool, it was, I mean, hair and makeup wise on a just a technical level, it was an extraordinary job and it was so disturbing. I remember Mike came to set that day because he wasn't directing that scene and was like, oh my, I can't even look at you. It was so sort of impactful. But unfortunately, just for story purposes for Mary's character to have seen Verna then and not connect it back was too much of a, it just didn't make any sense. So I loved playing her and I was terrified to play her. And I did a lot of physical work on that character. So I'm kind of sad it's not in there. And also it made no sense ultimately to be in there, so. To get into the physical work a little, cause you already know I'm a big fan of Terry Notary. I think he's just like an absolute ace at his craft. Can you maybe give us an example of like a really big broad movement technique that he gave you that like we could see in all its glory on screen, but then also maybe something really subtle that does wind up being key to differentiating the variety of Vernas we see that, maybe we're not processing it, but it's actually making them stand out. Yeah. No, and you're so right about Terry. I mean, when I saw him in the square, I think for me, just even on camera, that sequence is just out of control. And I was like, this man is brilliant because to walk into a room of people like that and take it over is, and change the energy is incredible. Mike had suggested, he said, I think it'd be great for you guys to work together because they had worked together before. And I thought it was mostly for the Raven and the cat and just sort of these more primal, obviously the primate. And then it became, we worked on so many subtle things, like really ultimately I ended up just sort of finding him just such an ally creatively in terms of all of these, because we had to do, as I think we talked about before, I had to do a couple of different incarnations on the same day often, that I had to have physical markers that dropped me in really quickly. And so that was so amazing to work with Terry. One thing that you'll notice about the Raven throughout, and I think it manifests quite a bit in the bartender and then also in her later incarnation when she's the most like herself human-wise, like meaning in episodes seven and eight. You know, there's just a lot of, you'll get a lot of wingspan and even chairs and all of the wardrobe is so, so there was a definitely the notion that she, she also just doesn't exist in a plane of like me and you. She's very, everything in the eyes, everything is this very inclusive. She's listening and receiving all at the same time. So there was some work we did with that. It's kind of hard to explain the specificities of that, but you know, one of the, it's interesting. So I would say that that's some, the primate, I mean, you know, the chimpanzee, when that happened, we had, he worked with me with that extensively. And those were also, we worked with actual, the crutches that, you know, sort of make you move in that way. And so when you see once I've made the jump onto the table, like a lot of that, or is that work that was really helpful? But yeah, I really do feel that the, I would say the heart patient was somebody that we really worked with in terms of, I really wanted her never to be able to breathe properly. And so he helped me modulate how much or little was gonna read with that. And, and cause I always err on, I think we were a really good combo also, because my work generally comes from the inside out. I sort of find where I'm coming from and then the physical manifestation of that. And his work is very much, it's not like it's from the outside in, it's just that he's a keen observer. And so physical markers and behaviors, so like his sweet spot. So for us, it was a really natural combination. And we were both, I think, very excited by each other's work. And so in that way, I tend to be, I tend towards possibly too subtle in certain, I'll never wanna overdo something. So it was really good for me because he would really push me to the limit with some behavior. And then I could always dial it back, but I knew where I could go and not have it be too much. What a good partner to have on a show like this, my God. I know I have to let you go soon. I wanna squeeze in two more questions. One, because you have many incredible scenes in the fall, the House of Usher. This has probably emerged as my favorite. It's the one that I've rewatched the most. It's the conversation with Lenore, just like truly one of the most beautiful pieces of writing and performance beats that I've seen this year. So can you tell us what were some of your top priorities when tackling a monologue like that? To use it to, I guess, heavily emphasize how warm and deeply loving Verna can be despite what's happened to the rest of the Ushers throughout the series. Yeah, yeah, I think in a way, Verna's executing her job, right? She has, there's no negotiating on her part, even with her, it's like this deal was made. She is going to be a part of this deal. And, but I think that for me, because I really, I wept when I read that scene in the script and it felt like I really needed to, I felt like for Verna, the key was, the gift I can give you is for you to know that your decency, your big heart, your authenticity will have ramifications that you will never know. So you've witnessed this family in the same way that the deal that they made with Verna is something that has horrible ramifications for a very long time. You are the opposite. And it just felt really important that she, I tried my hardest to not be, have any emotion come out in that scene and it just was proved impossible. So thankfully I was unable to not sob, but I did feel like this is the time when Verna is, I think that, and then the flip side with Henry's character in Pit in the Pendulum, when she talks about the pliers, I think those are the two times where she couldn't be impartial. And that's so funny, it's so fun to make rules, which is that Verna, I felt like Verna didn't have human emotion and she doesn't have a moral, she doesn't have our kind of moral, she doesn't work with the same moral compass as we do. So she doesn't think of good and bad and any of that stuff, crime and punishment. It's a much different kind of deal she's working with, but I love that I made those rules and then there were a couple of scenes where I couldn't not break them and those seem to be the ones that, it became clear like, okay, we need to see a little bit to the other side of her. And people have really responded to those in particular. Such a beauty, it's like the Lenore one in particular is like the pitch perfect ray of light this show needed at that point to serve as an inspiring, lasting impression too. Totally. I feel like as fun as the demise is, it was so, at least from my personal perspective, it was important to me to have something to, something positive to reach for and hold on to. Sure, for me too. And by the way, for playing my character, it was like, I can't. And that was why also, which we've spoken about before, but with, that Mike, it was super important to me and he really supported it that Verna remained incredibly curious and about people and really giving them a chance to do something different before she takes them. And 95% of the time they won't, they won't do differently than they've done, but 5% of the time they will. And so it felt like that, again, that belief in humanity was really important and Lenore embodied all of that. So good. And me saying it's so good, paves the way to my last question. So in all honesty, I was gonna try to make this ladies' night happen post-strike no matter what, because I was dying to talk to everybody about making this show. But then this episode became more urgent because you were just nominated for a Critics' Choice Award, which I know in this industry, we don't do the work for the awards, but it is a big deal and it's something well worth celebrating. So what does it mean to you to be nominated for Best Lead Actress in a Limited Series? Well, thank you so much, Perri, really. It's, I will say that we certainly don't do it for that. And I've learned that in a very tangible way because for whatever reasons, no matter how many times people have been so kind to say, you know, you'll get nominated for this. So you won't just get nominated, you'll win for this. Or, you know, and I've gotten lots of beautiful critical response and accolades, but this is the first major award I have ever been nominated for in film or television in an almost 40 year career. So it's actually really significant to me. And I think it's so rare too, that you get to do something where you are so proud of the piece as a whole, of everybody involved, of, you know, so this character, I just, I will never get an opportunity. I've never had one before. I probably will never get one like this again. It's such a unique opportunity with Verna and these incarnations of her. And also then that the show is super successful. So, so often I feel like you're in an instance, you know, just in this last year, I did a show called Leopard Skin, which I'm super proud of and is amazing. And it's on Peacock, but I think they just did not know what to do with it. They, you know, it should have been on HBO. It's like, it was just a, and so, so again, by the way, if nobody has watched Leopard Skin, it's super awesome. And I love it so much, but you know, that's a show that for example, just didn't have the eyes on it to get the attention that I think that it deserved, though it was very well reviewed, et cetera. But I feel like this has that magic combo where you do something that you're really proud of. And I've done huge movies that have done really, really well, but the role has been fine, you know? So this is a magic combo and I, and I couldn't be more grateful. And so, yeah, so I feel like it's really cool. I love it. Congratulations on that. Congratulations on the fall of the House of Buster and congratulations on everything you've accomplished. So much light in this industry and I love it. And I can't wait to see what you do next. Always here for more work on screen or on stage from you. So bring it on. Thank you so much. The Ladies Night door is open anytime you want to return. Love Ladies Night.