British PM Putting Trade Above Security Concerns: China and Human Rights Expert

Britain's government has greenlit plans for China to build an embassy to close London's, or rather close to London's financial district. Joining us to discuss this is human rights activist and writer, Benedict Rogers. He's the author of The China Nexus, and co-founder and chair of Hong Kong Watch, and as well senior director at Fortify Rights. So Benedict, good afternoon to you. Thank you so much for joining us. So, I mean, why is Britain allowing China to build its largest European embassy next to critical financial data infrastructure? Because, you know, many have raised serious national security concerns. Well, in my view, it is a massive mistake. So many voices across party, not only from the opposition parties, but from the governing party, the Labour Party itself, have expressed their concerns about it. Only last night in Parliament, there was an urgent question where several Labour members of Parliament opposed this. I think the primary reason why the government has done this is, first of all, they're concerned about the trade relationship with China. They want to prioritize that. Our economy faces, admittedly, quite a lot of challenges at the moment, and the prime minister seems to be putting trade above security concerns. He wants to visit China quite possibly in the next few weeks, and he knew that the visit was conditional upon approving this embassy. And I think there was one other factor, which is that the regime in Beijing was essentially holding the British embassy in Beijing to ransom. They were several times cutting off the water and the electricity. The British embassy in Beijing was in need of repair and extension. But instead of finding a mutually acceptable way forward, the British government has kowtowed to Beijing and basically given in to their bullying over this. So what is the message then that the UK is sending by allowing this, by greenlighting this embassy? I think it's an extremely dangerous message. It's essentially saying to Beijing that they can bully and threaten and intimidate their way to getting what they want. And we all know in life, the best way to treat bullies is to stand up to them. But that's not what the British government has done. It's given them what they wanted, and that's a very dangerous message. I think it poses real concerns for our national security, for our values, not only in terms of espionage, but also in terms of the embassy's use for transnational repression against diaspora communities here in the UK. And there's one other factor that I feel very passionately about, which is that there is British national, Jimmy Lai, who is facing the prospect of dying in prison in Hong Kong. He's 78 years old. He's been there already five years. He's awaiting sentence, but it will be a very long sentence and he's in very poor health. And for the British prime minister to give in to Beijing over this embassy before demanding Jimmy Lai's release, before making it conditional on Jimmy Lai's I think is outrageous. Yeah, I see your point there. And I just want to build on it. For years, the Chinese Communist Party has carried out its campaign of transnational repression, as well as monitoring dissidents abroad. And one example I'm going to give here is like the adherents of the spiritual group Falun Gong, Tibetans as well, and you mentioned Jimmy Lai, other pro-democracy activists for Hong Kong as well. How could the creation of this embassy impact Chinese dissidents living in London and the UK overall? Well, I think it will only increase the transnational repression that's already been underway. We've seen, for example, you've mentioned some of the groups affected, but we've seen Hong Kongers who've had bounties placed on their heads, then receiving threatening letters in their neighborhoods to their neighbors, urging their neighbors to hand them over to the Chinese embassy. I myself have had threatening letters at my home and as my mother has as well. And I think all of that is going to be emboldened by the fact that the British government has given this embassy. It will be the largest in Europe. It will make it much easier for the Chinese to coordinate both their espionage and their transnational repression, because they'll all be in one huge building. And there's one other factor, which is that when these plans were originally proposed, the Metropolitan Police in London opposed them because they said that the space outside the embassy would be very difficult to police in large-scale protests. And we've proven their point correct because we've had many protests in the last year, and it causes big disruption to the traffic. So the question is, will protests be able to continue once the embassy is established there? And will diaspora communities feel safe enough to protest outside this building? We had the incident a few years ago of the consulate in Manchester, where Chinese diplomats physically assaulted Hong Kong protesters, dragged them through the gates of that consulate. It's not hard to imagine the same thing happening in this new site. You know what I find strange, Benedict? MI5, Britain's spy service, has not objected to the plans, despite warning about broader threats from China. Why is that? Well, it's a question that only they can really answer. What I do know is that quite a number of senior former intelligence officers, including the former head of MI6, has spoken out against it. As to why the current intelligence services have not, is a matter for them. But I should emphasize that I do have great respect and trust in our intelligence agencies. It's not them that are to blame for this. It's the politicians that have made this decision. And you said earlier, you've been impacted as well from China's transnational repression. Can you just speak a bit more about that? What would be the impact on everyday Britons if this embassy is built, because China has a record of cyber espionage into other Western countries? Well, the most immediate threat, I think, is the fact that this embassy is right on top of these highly sensitive cables going between our two financial centers, the City of London and Canary Wharf. And the Chinese have, the plans are for hundreds of secret rooms in the basement of this new building as they develop it, with equipment that, according to the news reports, will be used or could be used to tap into those cables. So absolutely a clear example of cyber espionage. More broadly, I think the impact on ordinary people in Britain will be an increase in infiltration, in influence, in intimidation by the Chinese Communist Party. So just one final question, Benedict. What do you think happens now, now that this embassy has been given the green light? Is there going to be guardrails put into place? Are activists going to be more closely monitoring this site? Can you just talk to us about what you think could happen from this point on? Well, the first and most important thing to say is that this actually isn't totally the end of the story, because there are British citizens who currently live in the building that will be the Chinese embassy now that the government has approved it. And they have been fundraising to launch a judicial review, to launch a legal challenge to the government's approval of this. And already in the last few hours since the government's announcement of its approval, they've raised, I think, over £100,000, which is well towards the target that they need. So I'm sure that judicial review will happen, that legal challenge will happen, and that will at least cause some further delay in the actual establishment of the embassy. I think there will be further political pressure, particularly around Keir Starmer's likely visit to China. And the government, if it wins the judicial review, if it does eventually go ahead with this as it intends to, certainly the political pressure will be such that really serious action must be taken to mitigate against the dangers. I don't know whether that can include relocating those cables and other measures to try to prevent the espionage risks. And MI5 have already today indicated that they are looking very seriously at this. The security minister has said the same. So I'm sure some steps will be taken, but whether they will be enough, we'll have to wait and see. Okay, Benedict, thank you for speaking with us today. I know it's rather late on your side, so I really appreciate it. No, it's a pleasure. Thank you.