Gen Z on the Gaza War: An IDF Soldier and a Jewish Harvard Grad Discuss the Battles | Real Talk

Michael, you recently came out of your service for the IDF at the Gaza war. Can you describe the tunnels to me given that you were in there? >> My team was in charge of underground warfare. We had a tunnel. There were lockup cages the size of this table. It was like a prison and it's not one person inside. They would put 12 hostages in one. >> Chavez, maybe you can describe to us what you saw at Harvard. I can't fight in the battlegrounds of Gaza or Yemen or Lebanon, but what I can do is I can fight in the battleground of ideas. The problem with Harvard is not the liberalism, it's the illiberalism. It was astounding to see the group think and political indoctrination. And I'm embarrassed to admit I was a product of this. >> Why do you think October 7th happened? >> I think there are still questions left unanswered and there are people that need to be held accountable for it. >> Michael and Chabis, thanks for coming on. What I love about my show is that I really get to gain a new perspective from people from all walks of life. And I love sharing it with my audience because I think it's so important to speak to people who have new perspectives. And in this case, the perspective that I'm going to get from you is of a younger generation. And you might be the youngest uh people who have ever been on my show. It's it's it's possible. It's I'm not allowed to ask ages according to HR. Um but uh the truth is I'm obviously very preoccupied with the future and the next generation and your generation in particular has been through a lot and I think that's an understatement from co to the insanity on college campuses here in the United States and in the west in general. Shabas, you'll talk a little bit about your experience at Harvard. And for you, Michael, it's good to have you here. I know you recently came out of your service for the IDF at the Gaza War. >> Thank you. Yeah. >> In one of those very dangerous units. You were part of the team that blew open Senoir's tunnel. And so, I think there's a lot for us to learn from your generation. And I'd like to do a lot of listening and questioning so that we can get a sense of, you know, what what does the future look like. You know, I'm sure there is some frustration and some learning and resilience and hope and optimism. So, let's get into it. Michael, I'm sure people are very curious as I started describing what you did in the Israeli military, but why don't you describe to us what you did there? >> So, I served in a unit called yalom. That translates to diamond. It's a unit that specializes in explosives and demolition. The way we operate, we have various companies within the unit, whether it's bomb diffusal, offensive demolition. My team in particular was in charge of underground warfare. I mean, we have various teams that specialize in it. My team was one of them. We specialize in tunnels, investigating them, neutralizing them. >> What kind of training is done for soldiers like you? >> We have 14 months of training. We go through basic combat, uh leadership, uh physical training, mental training, obviously demolition and explosive training. And then we have a whole uh phase, a whole part of our training is dedicated solely for underground warfare. >> So describe to me Gaza because here we are in the United States. We think Los Angeles is small because it's within California. Los Angeles has about 11 million residents. That's already larger than the entire country of Israel. True. >> Gaza would be maybe as small as Santa Monica. and you all fought there for 2 years. So, just give us a little bit of a sense of of what this place was like given that you were there boots on the ground. >> Images like to show a parking lot basically. A lot of buildings flattened, sand, no sense of ability to to live there. I mean, everything is destroyed, ruined. That's not necessarily the case. I mean there are a lot of places where buildings completely intact, people going and the end of the day we give specific areas where people are allowed to be and then they stay there. It's not ideal but as you said is a very small space. I think it's the most amount of people >> very densely populated. >> Exactly. Exactly. From one side of Gaza to the other is 40 30 minutes. >> Wow. So given that it's so small, I have to ask, why does it take the Israelis 2 years to be at war with Gaza given the military capacity of the Israelis? >> Because the war is not engaged in a way that any war in history was engaged where you have one country, one army up against another. It has a lot of variables, mainly the moral ones. I mean, we could have finished it in a week. There is no comparison in the power force, in the manpower that we have as opposed to them. But wars in history, you would go fight another country, lives would be lost, and at some point a white flag would be raised. That's enough. And they don't care about that. Hamas. >> I mean, we try and minimize as much as we can the civilian casualties, but it's not something they care about. They hide underground while all hell breaks loose up ground. They don't mind that. >> So, it wasn't that when you entered with your unit into Gaza, it wasn't that you were there with your guns and they were confronting you with their guns and shooting at you. So, you were just you guys were walking in. What caused these buildings to collapse? You've you described buildings being collapsed. It did you just bomb these buildings in order to get into the tunnels? You just I don't know. Describe it a little bit to me. I know you're laughing at me. >> If we get to practicality, a collapsed building is a very hard thing for you if you trying to get into a tunnel. But a lot of them are wired with traps, bombs. They would set ambushes all around you. You would have, for example, three buildings. One of them would be a point of interest. It could have a tunnel or uh ammunition, weapons, whatever it may be. And it would be set up with bombs and explosives. And then you'd have two other buildings with militants in them, with Hamas operatives. and they would wait for the IDF to walk in that building, blow it up, the building would collapse on our forces, then a rescue team would come and then they would attack them from the two other buildings. >> H it's a very interesting perspective because I think for those of us here, we assumed when we saw the collapsed buildings that it was you guys, the Israelis, using drones or rockets to bomb these buildings from the top. You're saying that they it was the Hamas militants who would wire the buildings and then use them as traps to get you in there and and have the buildings collapse on on Israeli soldiers. Yeah, we had instances where we did destroy buildings but not for not without knowing it had some sort of interest whether it served as a vantage point for Hamas operatives. We had buildings that you could see sniper positions within the buildings uh just watching our forces or whatnot or you would have weapons uh tunnels whatever it may be and even in those in in those instances you you just don't do that I mean it's a danger to our forces you don't want to by mistake accidentally hurt someone that's not involved so we try and avoid it as much as possible So yeah, >> can you describe the tunnels to me given that you were in there? We've seen some footage online of how the hostages were held in these tiny tunnels, but you know, you also described that the Hamas leadership, Senoir included, they were living underground. So I can't imagine that kind of miserable existence for for people to live underground for for so long. Well, it depends on who you're asking. The hostages 100%. We had a we had a tunnel that had it's it was like a prison. There were lockup cages in inside them. It was the size of this table. I mean, maybe just up to that wall >> and they were locked in there for two years. >> Yeah. And it and it's not one person inside. They would put 12 hostages in one. And for Hamas operatives, for their leadership, they had hotels on the ground. Yes, you see the footage online of these tiny tunnels where you walk all the way miles upon miles. And that's true. That exists until you get to the front door and you enter and it's a huge space. The size maybe this Yeah, around the size of of this. That's a room. The ceiling is as high on the ground. Marble walls, king-size beds. >> What does Senoir's room look like? You saw it. >> I didn't take measurements, but a huge TV, a king-size bed. It had marble uh ceiling, marble walls, marble floor. It had a carpet. There was fake grass there to, you know, simulate a garden, like a a backyard. It had a fully functioning kitchen, a shower, a bathroom, fully functioning water. There were multiple entrances just in case one is blocked or we come in one way, he could escape from another. >> What was above ground? >> A neighborhood >> like where kids would live. >> Yeah. A residential neighborhood buildings >> and that's how he protected himself. So if you bombed his apartment, you would first have to kill children. >> Yeah. For those who don't know who Senoir was, will you just give us a quick brief explanation of his significance in the terror? >> So, Senoir is basically the orchestrator of the whole thing. He was the leader of Hamas throughout the war. He was held in Israeli prisons for several years. He uh he got educated. He actually had uh brain tumor or something and we operated on him. saved his life. The Israelis operated on him. >> Yeah. Saved his life and he was released in the Gilachalite deal and rose to power. >> Gilachalite was a former hostage that was held captive. >> Exactly. Yeah. He was uh an Israeli hostage held in Gaza and in the exchange of him, we released 1,000 terrorists and Sinir was one of them and he became the leader of Hamas. So after he was released from Israeli prisons, he then went ahead and and basically conducted this war. >> Yep. >> When you were walking around Gaza, did you see women, children walking around? I mean, what was that like? I mean, it must be just completely heartbreaking to see these kids grow up like that. >> Yeah. And people have their opinions online. uh we didn't engage as much with civilian population but we had instances uh there was the time where people from Kunis moved to Rafa >> this was when you were moving the population away from areas where you were going military operation >> yeah they were all channeled in one space to go there and yeah you see it was it was sand and was hard to move you see people trying to push carts and not being able to do it and you know who you're up against and yeah, you're told that's the mission and these people support terrorists and all that and you have your own opinions, but seeing an image of of some guy trying to push a cart and you see a kid right next to him trying to help him push it, I find no pleasure. It it doesn't make me happy. We saw an old lady collapsing there because it was too hard for her. We we went over and gave her water and helped her. I mean, it's interesting because the claim that Israel is committing genocide while you're moving the population, certainly if you wanted to commit genocide when they're all there, horrible things could have happened. >> True. >> Um, but I think on on the humane level, because you know, now you're here, we're sitting together. I just can't imagine what it's like to engage with a population that is in fact suffering so much. You know, what what was going through your mind? It's just, you know, I remember the first time specifically the image of that guy trying to push that cart and just you see how hard he's trying and he's seen a soldier and he and he's scared because he's told we'll kill him or something and he's scared and he's trying to push it real hard and he can't and I'm just looking at him and I'm like I don't want to be here like it's not fun. How do you feel now that Donald Trump brought together so many countries to sign a peace deal? You and your friends, now you're out of the military. Hopefully, you get to live a young person's life again. >> I mean, over the top. It's It's great. I mean, that's what we want. We wanted the hostages back. None of us I mean, if you ask most Israelis, they would have wanted the war to end. It's not a good life to live. You know, a kid shouldn't grow up with missiles above his head, turning on the TV, seeing, you know, faces and names of soldiers falling and people dying. It's We just want to be kids, you know. We I hear a motorcycle accelerating. I think it's a siren. >> It's It's not a good life to live. We were all so happy and so impressed, you know, seeing all these people who don't like us being brought together to stop this finally. It's great. >> I know some of you are traveling also throughout Europe and people have this instinct uh or have been brainwashed to call you war criminals because you served in the Israeli military. What does that feel like? That's horrible. You just It It gets to a point where you're going back to the to Europe in the late 30s, 40s where people ask you where are you from and you thinking twice whether you should tell them it's Israel or not because you don't want that. You don't know who's standing in front of you, what they think. And even if it it doesn't get physical and you're not really harmed, you didn't join the army to go and kill people. It's the Israeli Defense Forces. We we we're trying to protect our people. >> Do you believe that really given that you were in the military? Do you really believe that Israel was defending itself and not in fact committing war crimes and and genociding a population in Gaza? You were actually there. >> I I'll I'll tell you something that is a little bit controversial. Part of my criticism is that I've seen people get hurt because of strict engagement rules so that we don't hurt people who are not involved. And >> you're saying Israeli soldiers were hurt? Israeli soldiers were defending because of engagement rules, whether it's entering buildings without fire upon entry so we don't accidentally shoot someone, a kid, a woman, an uninvolved man, whatever it may be. and and people got hurt because of it. >> Like what do you mean? Do you have any examples of Israeli soldiers actually dying or being hurt because you were trying to protect innocent civilians in Gaza? >> Well, I wouldn't say try and protect, try not to hurt. >> Mhm. >> It's not that we gathered them and you know, I mean, we gave them places to go so they wouldn't get hurt. And even after that, if we have suspicion of people who are left behind, obviously, you know, you see a military-aged man, it's it's kind of kind of a different conversation. And still still we, you know what, we had someone stray away from that channel we talked about from Rafa and he walked uh throughout the place we were at and we stopped him. We got a translator to talk to him and put him back in. No shooting, no nothing. Obviously for for our own sake, we made sure he had nothing on him. He had no bad intentions. But there is no one of the goals for this war is not how many Palestinians you kill. It's not what we're looking to do. It's making sure October 7th doesn't happen again and the hostages come home. >> Look, I served in the Israeli military. It was almost 20 years ago. So really I know things have changed a lot. >> Yeah. >> Frankly, I was shocked when I saw that the um Gazins were able to penetrate into Israel and that it took so long for Israel to actually respond. And I've, you know, I've had multiple interviews with, you know, people from Israel and I asked them the same question. You're young boots on the ground trained by IDF recently. Why do you think October 7th happened? Were was is your generation complacent? Were they not properly trained? Uh did the Gazins get smarter? How is it possible that they got away with October 7th, two years ago? >> So the Gazins are smarter than they getting credit for by us. We let our guard down. I'll put it as simple and as I could. I remember we were supposed to have a huge drill in my unit October 8th, a drill that simulates war. And I remember telling someone, I don't know why we're doing this. There'll be no war. I this is stupid because we passed the statistic of of the time between wars. And it was like, yeah, it was 11 years since the 2014 operation protective edge tukan in Hebrew. So it all seemed kind of weird. and then October 7th happened. So, I think there are still questions left unanswered and there are people that need to be held accountable for it. And part of the reason we're so happy this war is hopefully going to end is that we could start looking into >> what happened. I mean there are a lot of answers that have been already given in terms of technical issues whether it's manpower issues within units communications assignment you let 500 people storm a kibbutz they'll start shooting each other and we don't want to add to it. It was just crazy day. We were all we were caught off guard. It was a holiday. So just just so you know on holidays if you're going home for more than a week you deposit your weapon and we try and keep the minimal manpower required and it was just a matter of >> Do you think uh the protocols have changed now in Israel or is training different for yeah soldiers now? >> I'll tell you more than that. Uh it's it's kind of a sad thing, but I remember saying after a while in the war, I had a talk about it with someone and I told him people start to prepare for war after it already started. The things I was trained for were outdated >> and a lot of people were trained on outdated things. And then war starts and you start to rebuild yourself and you teach yourself, you try and invent new methods and equipment and whatnot to go through it and and after that, you know, I've seen in my unit how they trained it and made it a lot more efficient and new gear, new methods, new protocols, new terrain, environments, everything you can think of changed because of it. >> It's interesting. You got to wonder whether Hamas took advantage of of the Israeli military might and strength and use that as a way to fight against you guys because they were smaller. They were more nimble. They didn't have a massive operation where Israel's military has been around for a long time. It has this massive operation and maybe things are outdated and you know SOPs, standard operating procedures, etc. that have been done for so many years. They It sounds like they kind of took advantage of you in the same way that you describe fighting in Gaza. The the war is not frontal anymore. It's really uh guerilla war, which makes it very challenging when you talk about a sophisticated military. You're it's almost too big to succeed in these kinds of smaller environments. >> Yeah. >> Chavez, I want to bring you into the conversation. So, we talked about your generation and the incredible challenges also going from COVID to the insanity on college campus. For those who don't know your background, maybe you can describe to us what you saw at Harvard and how you ultimately ended up here at Prageru. >> Sure. All right. Well, well, first of all, let me say it used to be that on October 6th of 2023, if you were a young Jewish boy and you wanted to learn about or meet Jewish heroes, you would open up a textbook and you would learn about the Barcela revolt. You would learn about the Mcabes. You would perhaps learn the Hebrew Bible and you would discover characters like Samson, D'vorah, David. And then from October 7th onward, there was a paradigm shift. And for the first time, that young Jewish boy did not have to open up a textbook or learn the Hebrew Bible. They simply had to book a ticket on L all and go to Israel and meet people like Michael and meet the Samsons and D'voras and Davids who are quite literally walking the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and Ranana and elsewhere. I mean, it is fascinating when you think about just how many heroes live and walk amongst us. So, first and foremost, thank you. I I mean that seriously and genuinely for everything you and and your people have done. >> Well, I'll add then the ERS and Moris here in the United States and in the West in general. >> Right. Right. Obviously, so so I can't fight in the battlegrounds of Gaza or Yemen or or Lebanon. I mean, you can just compare my my biceps to to Michael's. But what I can do is I can fight in the battleground of ideas. I I can fight in the court of law. I can fight in the court of public opinion, in the halls of Congress, the halls of power, media, social media, and that's what so many young American Jews, and not just Jews, but so many young Americans have been doing uh post October 7. So, just very quickly in terms of my background, I grew up um on the very far left of the political spectrum. I voted for Bernie Sanders twice. I marched for Black Lives Matter. I marched at the Supreme Court when Roie Wade was overturned. I've been doing a lot of repenting over the uh high holidays. And I remember even marching uh during the judicial reform protest in Tel Aviv against Prime Minister Netanyahu. And I went to Harvard to study religion. I wanted to explore religion from a pluralistic academic secular background even though I was an Orthodox Jew. And I surmise that while it is true there will be an undercurrent of anti-semitism and anti-American hostilities, if I, as a staunchly Orthodox Jew, but also staunchly progressive, would be able to meet those Harvard students and show them that I'm just like you. And if only they got to know me a little better, then I would sort of be able to sway them to my political um way of of seeing the world, certainly the way I saw Israel. And forget about October 7th just for a moment. But the blatant, the pervasive, the obvious anti-Americanism, political indoctrination that masqueraded itself as intellectual discourse and academic worth when it is literally nothing other than a deep-seated hatred of Western civilization and Judeo-Christian values was astounding. One quick example, this is before October 7th. There was a class being taught at Harvard University and the professor gets up on the first day of class. I won't mention her name. And she says, this class is called religion and peace, the case of Israel Palestine. She says in politics, in media, in academia, the Zionist narrative is the dominant narrative, which is laughably absurd. But I digress. Therefore, to understand both sides of the story, she says, in this class, which again is called religion and peace, the case of Israel Palestine, we will not study, we will not discuss, we will not learn, we will not read any texts if they were written by Israelis. >> It was astounding to see the the group think and political indoctrination. And it's fine if people disagree with the state of Israel or they don't consider them Zionists. The problem with Harvard, and I mentioned this at my speech at the Republican convention, is not the liberalism, it's the eliberalism. It's professors consistently teaching students not how to think, but what to think. And and I'm embarrassed to admit I was a product of this. I wrote papers knowing what my professors wanted to read and wanted to hear. Which is why I denounced, literally, I denounced in my final paper in one of my courses the religious Zionist values I had grown up with. and it's the only paper I ever got an A+ on because that's what my professors wanted to hear. >> Well, you mentioned that you were talking, you were speaking at the Republican convention. I'd love people who are listening to hear how did you go from being a progressive, maybe even leftist Jew to one of the most influential Jewish surrogates for Donald Trump. Right. >> Well, that's that's an honor. Wow. Thank you. I I I'd say this. The problem with October 7th is that it was not the story of October 7th. Hamas is a dictatorial tyrannical regime that should be obliterated from the face of the earth. But they're very clear as to what their goals are. You can read their charter online in English. They call for the eradication of the Jewish state and the Jewish people from the river to the sea. Hassan Nraalla, the since a deposed head of Hisba had stated for years, all the Jews should pack up and move to Israel because it'd be so much more convenient to kill you in one location than having to, you know, hunt you down country to country. So when terrorists commit acts of terrorism, it's bad and there should be a forceful response. They're terrorists. It's it's who they are. starts what they do. The story of October 7th is October 8th because what I could never have conceived of as possible was the most liberal, the most progressive, the most elite, the most educated, those who literally literally introduced themselves with preferred gender pronouns and take knees for Black Lives Matter, classmates, friends of mine on the night of October 7th, they see the images of Jewish women like Namaliva ble Namalvi bleeding from her private areas. They see the images of Jewish babies like Fear Bibbos being kidnapped and hoarded onto motorcycles by strangers and deported into Gaza. They see the images of burnt mangled charred bodies and the immediate reaction of those progressive and cultural elites is to jump out of bed somewhere still in their pajamas to draft what they called an emergency statement to blame Jews for the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. It's not hyperbole. It's not conjecture. It's not speculation. The statement literally begins, we hold the Israeli aparttheid regime entirely responsible for ongoing violence in the Middle East. And it occurred to me right then and there that the people I had been marching with, voting for, allying myself with, they were literally the first ones to call for a globalized inifat, the first ones to call for the mass murder of the Jewish people. And purely out of self-interest, it occurred to me these are not people that I can I can connect myself with anymore. And once I started questioning, no pun intended, that liberal orthodoxy, then I started questioning a lot of my other liberal beliefs. If American Jews are being held hostage in the terror tunnels of Gaza by Hamas, if American Jews are being physically salted on their college campuses, then yeah, the minimum wage stuff and the climate change stuff is nice. But but it is irrelevant to me because when the house is on fire, all I need is someone with a bucket of water, even if I may disagree with the fireman's politics. And Donald Trump and the Republican party, let's call a spade a spade, were the only candidate was the only candidate. They were the only party who gave half a damn about what we were going through. I spoke at the Republican convention. I did not endorse President Trump in that speech. I went to the Democratic convention a month later. I gave them a list of a dozen progressive Jewish American students on college campuses, most of whom would probably be supporting Kla Harris. And I said, "These are American students who've been physically assaulted, who are stalked back to their dorm, who who get death threats. Have one of them speak for two minutes at the DNC about anti-semitism. Don't let I told the Democrats, don't let the Republicans be the only ones to talk about this issue." They said, "No, we're okay." >> And I'll give you one one last example. We went on the one-year anniversary of October 7th to the grave of Rabbi Minaken Schneerson, Labavichba, with Ben Shapiro, with Idon Alexander's parents, who was the last living American hostage, with Jerry Wartsky, an Awitz survivor, and with President Trump. President Trump came with us to pray for the safety and security of the American hostages. We reached out to Kla Harris and we said, "Why don't you come too?" And she said, "I no." So we said, "Fine, you don't want to come when Trump is there. We get it. Come a different day." She said, "No." So, if you're not going to help our community, then why would we help you? >> Right. Well, there's something I want to react to in what you said, which is why I brought William Buckley's books. Uh, and and I encourage you and everybody else uh to read William Buckley because one of the things I love about what he did in his writing and in his advocacy is to not divide Americans based on their ethnicity or religion or color or whatever it is what I call the chopped fruit salad that the progressive left hopes that we would be chopped into. What I love about the United States of America is that here in this country, in my country, I'm not Marissa the Jew. I'm Marissa the American. Elorurbunum is the great American dream. >> I think the progressive attempt and and somewhat now on the woke right, the attempt to divide us as different communities that are expected to vote as voting blocks rather than be individuals, I think is a very dangerous thing. and a the fall of of America which is the America of e- plurbassunum for many one is going to be the fall of the entire world and I think the reason America is a beacon of light in the world is because the true American dream the American values distinguish between humans in into only two races as Victor Frankle would have said the decent and the indecent rather the Jew, the African-American, the Hispanic, the half Hispanic, half black, half Jew, half Christian, right? That that's the beauty of of of America as a nation. And I think that Donald Trump sees that as well. He doesn't look at you, Shabas, as Shabus the Jew. I think he looks at you as Shabus the decent. And we look at uh at America and then by America we look at the world as the people who are fighting for good versus evil, decency versus indecency. In the case of what has happened in Israel, I think the reason why so many decent people, non-Jews, uh supported Israel is because they were able to discern good versus evil, right? they were able to look at what Hamas did on October 7th and the continuing two years after even to date what they're doing to their own people and say this is this is really evil. This is really indecent. And it doesn't take a Jew to be able to see that. It takes a decent person to see that. Um, and I I think that is just an important lesson that that if you actually pick up some of uh William Buckley's book, I'll make one more endorsement of that is that so you would think that he wrote this book today really. I mean, this is a book that I think was written in the '9s or at least it was compiled in the '9s. the same issues that he was addressing back then, calling the Jew the Jew, calling the African-American the African-American, rather than simply the American, simply the decent, simply the indecent, right? These are things that he brought up back then. He even brought up the issue of the claim that Jews would have dual loyalty to another country. Well, what does that mean? Well, really a strong America, a strong decent uh moral America is a strong decent more moral potential world. And by that, Israel benefits, but so would Canada and so would Venezuela as as the woman who just received the Nobel Peace Prize. She said, you know, I dedicate my peace prize to Donald Trump because he is doing he is doing something so decent for the world that it's actually helping Venezuelans as well. So, I think I think it's an important contemplation and tying this into your generation and how now post post peace deal, what does what does the world look like for for people your age? I mean, so much of it is through the lens of social media. I've noticed, by the way, that since the peace deal, the watermelons and the free Palestine and and all the other uh usual comments that you see right away within seconds of any post that has to do with Gaza or Israel, those those comments virtually disappear. They're gone. Have you noticed that? >> I don't recognize my Instagram account anymore, >> right? >> It just all disappeared. >> And Chavez, you're on social media quite frequently. Where are those comments that we saw? First of all, to my deep regret, I'm on social media often. I I would say this really underscores the obvious intellectual bankruptcy and the moral hypocrisy of the it's a genocide, you're a baby killer, this is the Holocaust all over again. Because if you truly believe that this is the Holocaust all over again and it's a genocide and you kill babies, you would be the first ones. You would be the loudest ones to cheer on President Trump's historic uh 20point peace plan between Israel and Gaza. But to your point, not only h have they refused to say anything, some of them have actually criticized President Trump for it and if you really think that the interests of the Palestinian people are paramount with with your political calculation, you would be cheering on this deal. And they're not. And I I did a debate a few days ago. I I won't say her name, but with a woman who's sort of caught in a political bind because she hates Donald Trump. He's the closest we have to the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler. But at the same time, Israel has just been conducting the worst genocide in human history for the last two years, and she's in this bind because she can't give President Trump any credit. But at the same time, the genocide is over. So, she's sort of stuck. She has to find a new political personality. And and we're seeing that play out in in real time. And I just want to go back to to a point you you mentioned earlier. We young people are faced with two choices right now >> when it comes to American politics. least I support Israel in the same way I support Taiwan in the same way I support Ukraine. Yes, I'm a religious Jew. So I certainly have a religious attachment. But if that was the only reason I supported Israel, I would have moved to Israel and I would have scorned my American identity. But I'm to your point a proud first generation American. That is literally the first way I introduced myself at the Republican convention. I'm a proud first generation American. And I believe that America is at its best is at its most uh productive and when it truly exemplifies its founding principles when it supports its allies and when it recognizes that America first is not America alone. And you know who says it the most? President Donald J. Trump who who coined the the idea of America first that we recognize that Western hegemony and American dominance is something that can and should and must be preserved. And I I I'm so proud. I I I was so proud to be an American to see my president go to Egypt, get 20 of the other world leaders on the last minute schedule to show up. And he's commanding the room. And there's an awareness that this peace deal would literally not happen without President Trump, without American ingenuity, and without the American people. >> Michael, do Israelis think that there might actually be peace in the Middle East? What are people talking about in Israel? I I don't I'm pretty cautious with it because I know who we're dealing with and I mean we're seeing the images from Gaza right now. I mean we're we're not there. I mean we took a step back and you see what's happening on the streets right now. >> Why why are uh Gazins being killed in the streets right now? I it's it's really hard to understand >> what I think and by the way I know the the region Hamas has been weakened in this war by us and Palestinians have lost their trust in him and now they have to assert dominance and show power and strength and by executing these Israeli collaborators which may or may not be true. I I I personally don't know, >> but they're claiming matter. So, Hamas leadership through their media is claiming that they actually won the war because they got 2,000 almost uh terrorists and leaders out of of Israeli prisons in return for turning in about 20 live hostages. So, they're claiming that they're they won, right? They're celebrating and they're claiming that they won. And so on the one hand, you're saying that they feel like they're being weakened and that's why they're killing their own people in order to assert control and and dominance. On the other hand, they're also claiming that they won. So which one is it? >> So first of all, for us Israelis, Jews, there is a huge concept no one get left gets left behind. I mean the first day until now all we wanted is for them to not ever able to do it again and to get the hostages back even in the opposite order. Get the hostages back was top priority. No chance were we able to just leave them there. And of course they have to show that they're in a position of power that they've won. And yeah, they got more people out, more terrorists. They got their own whatever, but their world is more about respect and who's stronger, who's bigger. And it's not about if they beat us. It's about them and the Palestinians. Because October 7th happened, they had their hopes and dreams of what is going to happen after that. And two years after, Gaza is looking the way it's looking. and they're pointing their fingers at them. I mean, obviously at us as well. But now there are power struggles in Gaza. There are militant groups who are not associated with Hamas trying to take control and just basically be there for themselves and Hamas is not having it. So now they have to display power again and dominance. >> If I can jump in, I think your question is a question of definitions. So, if you're defining victory as we didn't die, then sure, I guess you won. But if you're defining victory as we now have a historic peace deal, we are now going to add countries to the Abraham Accords. Our economy is at record levels. We have in in a renewed sense of patriotism and optimism within our country. Young people all over the world are looking at our country as a model for innovation and uh optimism through adversity. Then, yeah, Israel kind of won. So, at the end of the day, Hamas's stated aims for for winning the for starting the war, I should say, that number one, they would create this coalition of allied willing countries. None of that occurred. Number one. Number two, all of their leadership are now dead. Uh, and number three, there's a good argument to make that Hamas waged the war in order to prevent Saudi Arabia from joining the Abraham Accords. And that is not only back on the table, but it is now more realistic today than it ever has been. And that is a direct result of the monumentously uh uh I'm trying to think of a nice word for it, disastrous decision to invade a sovereign country, kill its dogs, burn its homes, rape its women, kidnap its babies, and kill its civilians on October 7th. >> How many people do you think of your generation have noticed what you just described and are saying, "Well, wait a second. A moment ago, I was marching or I was ignoring the tents on college campus, but now I'm kind of seeing something different. Now I'm seeing what Chavez is saying. >> Well, first of all, I always wish that people were listening to what Chabas was saying, but >> do I? >> But in terms of specifics, look, I I I don't know. Unfortunately, my answer would probably be not enough. And what I mean by that is you have to recognize at some point the inability for your political ideology to advance. Meaning I was on the far left until it totally became inhospitable to reality. That I had to admit at a certain point that my politics were just wrong. That a society based on a false sense of idealism and naive is just not a practical society. There is evil in this world which is what you were alluding to earlier. And I wish young people especially were to recognize that there is evil, that not all cultures are equal. And it remains remarkable when you have individuals like Piers Morgan, for example, who will say that peace will come when the leadership of Hamas is out and the leadership of the BB right-wing government is out. There are certain cultures and there are certain countries that don't want democracy, that that don't want to live side by side with their peaceful neighbors. And don't listen to Shabas Kamama as the right-wing MAGA Prageru guy. Listen to the Palestinian people. Treat Palestinians like adults. Isma Alhaneia, Yahwa Sinir. They have repeatedly stated they don't want a two-state. They don't want the 67 borders. They want all of it. >> Don't listen to Shabas Kesm. Listen to the campus activists at Harvard University, at Colombia, at Yale, who say, and I quote, "We don't want no 48. We want all of it." >> Yeah. This is sort of the the um the misdirection of American foreign policy of the last 2030 years where we think as as westerners we can simply implant democratic values and virtues on cultures that a do not want it and b let's call a spade a spade are archaic are stuck in the sixth century that believe in beheadings. I mean, these are actual things that are actually happening in the Middle East. And Israel is a beacon, not only a country that doesn't do those things, but actually is aligned with Western values, with American principles. And I wish that young Americans, forget about your feelings towards BB Netanyahu or how this war was orchestrated. If you cared about the liberal virtues and values that you pretend to care about, then you would be the first ones to champion uh Israel and you would wish that more countries in the Middle East would look a hell of a lot more like Israel and a hell of a lot less like Gaza. >> Well, I would also argue that when it comes to foreign policy and and and life in general, people do like winners. And I think the issue that we have seen in the west with regards to foreign policy was this idea that you need to level the playing field. And so you need to bring Israel down to be at the same level as the Gazins. And you need to bring the Gazins up to be at the same level of Israel, which makes absolutely no sense. But that's what they have been doing all these years. Just reduce reduce Israel's ability to defend itself and increase whatever support you can give to Gaza. So if they're on the same playing field, maybe you can bring peace. And that was really what's cate what was categorically wrong. And ultimately, I think it's what led college students your age and maybe even older to to side really with the indecent because it was about leveling the playing field rather than understanding really that there there is a decent versus an indecent group and giving more power to the decent will allow the decent to help bring up and lift up hopefully the the indecent. And and and if I may, I think to a small degree the Israeli government is somewhat complicit in that. I think the world will respect Israel when Israel respects Israel. And Israel certainly on the PR battle, they had tried to make this argument that if sort of what I was doing on a micro level at Harvard, if the Harvard students simply knew that Israel was the gay capital of the Middle East, they would just love us so much more because we're just like you. No, no, no. Israel is a different country and that is a good thing. You should be proud of your differences. be proud of what makes you unique as opposed to acquies and plate yourselves and kind of dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator. No, it the the world will respect a strong Israel that is confident in its future. It is proud of its identity and yes, in October 7th will never happen again. I think that will be Israel's uh best outcome of Israel respecting Israel. >> Yeah, it's why intersectionality eats itself. >> Yeah. >> I want to talk a little bit about uh spirituality and and religion. I do think that there is a religious revival in the west partially have to give credit sadly to the very important work that our friend Charlie Kirk was doing and and and sadly he was taken at least in my opinion too soon from us. uh God knows what the reason is that it happened, but he has led to a religious revival and we have seen many people >> go to church and I do think that we have seen many people go to synagogue as well. And I want to have both of you comment on the need to fill in this God-sized hole in in people's hearts, particularly the next generation. Is is a religious revival possible in America? Is a religious revival possible in Israel? And particularly in Israel, it's interesting that it's a Jewish state with a very secular population that has felt very strongly about minimizing the the role of of religion in its country. >> Well, I think it differs between people, but I totally agree with you. I mean, I went to shul more times here than I ever did in Israel. I think Israelis are currently in a point similar to after the Holocaust where they're just looking for answers. What happened? How could it happen? And I think it strays some people more towards finding God and some people to more abandoning it. Some people are like, "Thank you for saving us. I I found you in all of this." And some people are, "How could you have let this happen?" I think more people are leaning towards I found you. I mean I personally feel a bit more connected through all of this. >> More connected to your faith. >> Yeah. First of all, we need to take care of external affairs to be able to look inside and figure everything out. Uh but I think it it's it's an answer >> because sometimes people either are not lo looking for logic or aren't satisfied with it >> and they need something deeper and higher to satisfy what they need and I think faith is a great place to find it. >> I wonder if first of all people should look into internal affairs and then they will find that the external affairs might get solved. But Chavez, I'll let you comment on that. >> Couldn't agree with you more. Um, let me start off with with how you first uh mentioned the question, which is to talk about Charlie Kirk. Charlie kept the Sabbath more than most Jews kept the Sabbath. Charlie learned the Bible more than more most Jews kept learned the Bible. He went to Israel more than Jews uh went to Israel. I mean, he was just not only incredible person, but he was just such an unbelievable figure in this revival uh of religious life here here in America. So in terms of the the specifics, uh, Victor Frankl himself, a Holocaust survivor, he writes in Man's Search for Meaning that man is in fact in this constant quest to find soloulless, comfort, answers in their life. And within Western civilization, we're great at a lot of things, but unfortunately, Western civilization in the contemporary area isn't really good at the religion aspect because it seems to suggest that you can find those answers in physical, and I would argue fleeting things. This is ironically what King Solomon was talking about in the book of Ecclesiastes. And the more people bought into this narrative that you can find the meaning and purpose in really nice cars and in really nice houses and an instant gratification through your iPhone and social media, the more they realize, well, actually that's not true because I'm still unhappy even though I have lots of money and I still haven't found a successful partner in life even though I have a really good job. And to your point, people are slowly looking internally and perhaps the answers were in front of them their whole time. I went to Harvard, not to sue them. Fun fact, I went I went to Harvard to study the Holocaust. That's that's why I'm depressed all the time. And one of the things I was particularly interested in researching the Holocaust was what was the religious lives of Holocaust survivors like because they had obviously went through a trauma that is quite literally incomparable to any other trauma up at that point in human history and and since. >> And the answer is basically it's complicated and there there's a lot of nuance. What's really fascinating is the released hostages from Gaza, all of them, literally all of them, have all stated that they either increased their level of religious observance or even during their uh um kidnapping while they were in the terriles of Gaza, you would hear people like Rome Braslovski saying, "I was offered by my capttors to convert to Islam and they would give me better food and better sleeping arrangements and I said no." You hear about people like Eli Sharabi saying that they would recite on Friday nights the kadouch, which is the sanctification of the wine that Jews recite every Friday night. I mean, these are fascinating uh not not just figures in Jewish history, but fascinating times that we're living in when people have experienced the worst single day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, yet they're coming out of it even stronger in faith. And so, maybe I should say this directly to the camera. If if you're a Christian, like go to church, receive communion, be be an observant Christian, follow the laws, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And if you're a Jew, >> observe the Sabbath, you know, go go to synagogue. You have to be a a a committed person. And I'll close by saying this. We're called the people of the book, which means for 3,000 years, we have political differences. We have ideological differences. We live geographically very far away from each other. But there's one thing that has united us, and and that is the Bible. And I'm not saying people should keep Shabbat and they should wear a Keipa and they should keep kosher. I mean, I think they'll like it. They should try it. But what I am saying, and this I'm so emphatic on, and this is where I really am so upset with the leadership of the American Jewish community, if you don't want to keep Shabbat and all those stuff, fine. But you have to be educated enough to make that decision. At least learn what Shabbat is, and then you can decide it's not for me. At least know what the laws of kosher are, and then say it's not for me. The problem with the American Jewish leadership and by extension so many young American Jews growing up in that environment is they're making really important, influential, long-lasting decisions without having any of the information or the facts. And I think if we were to meet this moment of October 7th, if we want to be the Jews of the future, we would radically reinvest in Jewish education. We would radically ensure that every single American Jew can go to Israel on a fully sponsored trip, can can have a connection with an educator, with a rabbi, with a a Ben Shapiro figure. And that to me is how we can can meet this moment. And the same is true of any American today, regardless of their religious identity. Lean into your faith because the Hebrew Bible and and by extension the New Testament, they have provided soloulless and answers consistently throughout time. >> Yeah. I mean the gospel and especially the Torah is truly a manual for for humankind, right? >> And Torah literally means instruction. It is an instruction for how you live your life. >> Yeah. You know, you mentioned the Jewish leadership and and I think this is similar in many cases with with with other religions where the religion has become highly politicized and it is a way to create voting blocks and voting groups and what we talked about earlier, the decent versus the indecent. and in hope it is my hope that your generation will have a direct relationship with God, a direct relationship with your religion uh and not a politicized rel relationship with your religion. And you know, it it could really go both ways, right? We're seeing that. I know that it's the case in Israel where many people are kind of turned off by by Judaism because it's become politicized. We are seeing that here in in the United States. We have the ADL that that prays on on Jewish fears and trauma for good reasons. We have fears and traumas here. But they have politicized us in and and used our fears and our trauma to gain power and raise money and oftentimes represent us in a way that we completely reject. Um and then and then you have that also with with political Christianity that is evolving and and and happening here in the United States of America. And so ultimately you you are that generation of direct access I would say right you were raised with that ability to go and research yourself and you don't have to go even through a an educational institution to get educated anymore and certainly you don't have to go through a political institution to feel connected to to God and religion and and and that is really >> the quintessential bedrock of the American dream right of of that relationship with with with religion, with God that is not necessarily institutionalized. What a what an amazing opportunity it is to fill in that God-sized hole in in your hearts to to to go there. And and and yes, that does mean go to synagogue. That does mean go to church. That does mean find a community. But it does not have to be politicized. >> Yeah. And and I think that's also what made Charlie so influential for young American men in particular because if you were to watch his college debates for example, yeah, they talk about healthcare and tariffs and all that, but they would also ask what is the type of woman I should be looking for in a relationship? Uh which church should I be praying in? You know, they would pray together. Sometimes they would even ask for blessings. You know, I I joke that Charlie Kirk is the closest that young Christian Americans will ever have to aidic master. You know, in Jewish history, thisic master takes you under his wing and gives you blessings and everything's okay. And and to an a certain extent, Charlie was that for so many young people. And that's why if we really wanted to live up to the very high standard that Charlie set out for young American men, the first thing we can do is show up to church on Sunday, show up to synagogue on on the Sabbath. I think that would make Charlie so proud. If if he died for his religion and if he died for America, then we should live for our religion. we should live for America. And and just one last point, we've also seen the consequences of not doing that thing. So Harvard happens to be a really good case study of it. I'm not just saying because I went there. It happens to be a really good example whereby I'll give you one example. There was a classmate of mine who's also transitioning. Um so I think that explains a lot of the it explains a lot of her politics as well. And she did not go to a Jewish day school. She has no affiliation with Jewish synagogue. She can't point to Israel on a map. She can't speak Hebrew. She cannot identify any of the 613 commandments. And she wrote an article during the encampments when all these, you know, far-left students and professors lived in tents and refused to shower for 4 weeks. And she wrote an article saying the encampments protesting for an inifat creating solidarity with the Palestinian resistance. That is my Judaism. And in a totally perverse way, she's absolutely right because she has a hole in her life that has not been filled by religion. And so she needs to fill it somehow. And and she does it with far-left politics. And and that is a damning indictment not just on the state of the American Jewish community but on the state of religion that so many young people are looking for answers and in the absence of having religious role models they'll fill it with a ton of garbage and it is up to us to ensure that the hole by which they are filling their lives with it's with meaning it's with purpose it's with the divine. >> Yeah we are in desperate need of that in the west and I would argue in Israel as well. >> Yeah. Well, thank you both for a very interesting conversation and uh I'm going to keep watching you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thanks so much.