Ha Jin | The Banished Immortal: A Life of Li Bai (Li Po)

Welcome to the Free Library of Philadelphia. More than a millennium ago, the subject of tonight's author talk wrote, "'We sit together, the mountain and me, "'until only the mountain remains.'" So with that in mind, we're very grateful that you've chosen to spend a little of your precious time here with us tonight. My name is Jason Freeman. I am a producer and editor here in the author events office, and I'm very excited to be here tonight to introduce Ha Jin. Celebrated internationally for a prolific, achingly beautiful, according to the Los Angeles Times Book Review, body of work across a variety of genres, Ha Jin is the author of a score of novels, including, War Trash, A Free Life, and The Boat Rocker. His volumes of poetry include, Between Silences and Facing Shadows. And he is the author of several short story collection and a book of essays. Mr. Jin's many honors included the National Book Award, two Penn Faulkner Awards, the Flannery O'Connor Award for short fiction, and election to the American Academy of Arts and Letters. His latest book is called The Banished Immortal, a biography of Li Bai, also known as Li Po, the eighth century Tang Dynasty poet whose verses remain an intrinsic element of Chinese language and culture. This poet lauded the everyman, was averse to war, and utterly celebrated the joys of alcohol and partying. I was obviously immediately drawn to his work. Robert Pinsky calls tonight's author a, quote, master storyteller, and that The Banished Immortal is, quote, a fluently told story, mysterious yet familiar, tragic yet sometimes comic. Tonight, Mr. Jin will be in conversation with Carlin Romano, who is the critic at large for The Chronicle of Higher Education, the former literary critic for the Philadelphia Inquirer, and the author of America, the Philosophical. Ladies and gentlemen, once you join me in welcoming back to the free library, Ha Jin. Thank you all for coming. I'm sure there are some inveterate readers of Ha Jin here who know that most of his work deals with China in the late part of the 20th century. So this is a departure of sorts, and I imagine there are people out there who know of Li Bai, Li Po, and as you say in the first couple of pages of your book, he has about seven other names or eight other names. Tell us a little bit first about who he was, why he's important, and why you chose to write about him. Okay, in fact, in China, he is viewed as really one of the greatest poets. Li Bai, they call Li Du, Li Bai and Du Fu, two great poets. But in fact, it was kind of accidental for me to stumble upon this project. There was a small prize called, there is a small prize, a very good prize, Shambhala, and they were publishing a series of mini-biographies. One of the editors, Dave O'Neill, he approached me three years ago. He said, I want you to write a mini-biography 12,000 words long on any Chinese figure, Asian or modern. I gave him a list, so Li Bai was on the list, and he basically, he told me, I really want a biography of him. But I agreed, and then began to do research, and it turned out that there was no, there had not been a full-length biography of Li Bai. So then I began to think, instead of writing a short biography, maybe I should write a full-length biography. So that's how it started. But there are also practical reasons. My wife was very sick, very ill at the time, diagnosed with cancer, so I was the only caregiver, so I couldn't inhabit a novel. When you write a novel, you have to live with characters inside the book constantly. But with this nonfiction project, because I knew his poetry, so his life basically is there. I could do the research and the writing step by step. Basically, by instinct, I just follow the poems. Every masterpiece, in his case, would reflect the kind of small crises in his life. So that's how I began to do this project. I mean, he's a wonderful figure. I must say, when I started it, I wondered how you were going to approach this, having read a lot of different sorts of biographies. You did a great job of reporting. You really seem to have read a lot of the sources. You know almost every anecdote about him. That's how it seemed to me as a reader. No, honestly, it was not, I didn't, really, I was not that knowledgeable at all, and I wouldn't sign a contract because I didn't know whether this book would work. I didn't have access to a big Asian studies library. Imagine if I had the Harvard Yanjing Library available, then I would have been intimidated. It would be very overwhelming. So my approach was quite simple. I asked my niece to basically buy the basic books from China, she brought them out. So I had these books, but now the internet helped a lot. You know, Li Bai had so many fans. So every poem, there would be different interpretations done by his fans. So if I was not sure of a line, I could check and see how his Chinese fans, how they translated the Asian line into contemporary Chinese. And I can decide, figure out. Also because I think, because I've been writing fiction, I tend to follow some interesting details. So my research was rather focused. The frame is there, if I found one detail is interesting, fascinating, I would do a lot, a lot of research focused on that detail. There are a lot of stories about him. I mean, he seems very much like a lot of Western poets. He drank a lot. That's right, yes. He drank a lot. I mean, he was admired a lot by his contemporaries. He seemed to be a very powerful personality. I mean, what makes him so important in Chinese literature? That for instance, we only discussed this at the end of our dinner before this. I'm wearing a tie with one of Li Bai's most famous poems. And I got this at Penn Station, and they told me that, oh, Chinese buyers, I didn't mention this to you, they do a good business with this tie. All Chinese who come into that store immediately recognize this poem, something that at times they have memorized from like third grade or fourth grade. So I mean, he's an important figure. Absolutely, absolutely. Also, great poets like Li Bai and Du Fu, they have become part of the language. People still use their lines and the phrases. For instance, there's a poem I translated here. He says something, as long as the host can make me drunk, I will forget where my hometown is. Mm-hmm. And people still use those lines when they urge others, you know, guests to drink. So there were a lot, a lot of lines that are just already deeply entrenched in the language. So one thing I'm curious about, you know, we talked, one reason I'm sitting here is that I'm writing a book about Asian philosophy, and I've been reading Ha Jin for years, and so many insights about, you know, China in the last, you know, half century, 80 years or so that I've gained from reading. One thing I know about China is that reputations of literary and intellectual people go up and down. Yes. Depending on regime, right? So is he controversial at all? The Communist Party likes him, the old nationalists would like him. I mean, he's shared by everybody? Because he's such an individual. Yes. And they don't like people who are very individual these days, so. No, that's true. But on the other hand, his talent was so big, it is beyond any government, any regime. And I think even Mao Zedong love him, because he's romantic. You know, there's kind of rebellious and romantic spirit. And sometimes people, I think the only people would say either Dufu is a great poet or Li Bai is a great poet. That was the only argument. Other than that, there was no controversy. That's like a battle of the immortal tribes. Yes, yes. Other than that, there was no controversy. He's really one of the very, very. Yeah, always. I think after his death, maybe for briefly, about 100 years, maybe briefly 100 years, he was not in the public eye, but after that, basically, he's really everywhere. He was everywhere. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned earlier, he mentions early in the book that Mao Zedong, apparently there's only one piece of calligraphy that. This one, yes, this piece. That he actually did, and Mao Zedong had that in his possession, right? Yes, yes. And jealously kept it. I mean, it was so important to him also, right? When you think of literary reputation in China today, I mean, our perception here often is that it's inevitably in conflict in regard to political elements. There are people like you who haven't been back to China for decades for political reasons. There are people who manage to go in and out. There are people like Liu Xiaobo who get incarcerated and their lives destroyed. When you look at fellow Chinese writers, Yan Lianke, say, or Mo Yan or something, do you see them through a political lens or you try to keep the politics out of it? Because it just seems that all Chinese writers, they have to deal with, you know, politics. Politics is part of the fabric of life in China. There's no way to separate this politics from everyday reality. Even the existence of many writers somehow are shaped. In my situation, the choice to write English basically was really compelled by the political situation. I couldn't go back to China. And so in the cases of other writers, similar situation. If you are an official, you know, they have the Writers Association. Basically, it is an official system. So if you are in that system, sure, somehow you are constrained by your official role. And propaganda and different kind of writings will be unavoidable. So the politics is everywhere. There's no way to separate politics from my writing. Or just for my life. But we were talking about this a bit at dinner. I don't know how many of you know. He has never been back to China since he came here. What was it, 1985? Yes. Long time. Yes, 34, almost 34 years. So partly a matter of principle and then later not being able to go back to China. Have you come to terms with that? I mean, do you still think that maybe you'll go back someday? Or do you get angry at the government that keeps you from going back? How do you deal with that? I think there was a kind of evolution. There was a process. In the beginning, I was very eager to go back because I do feel that I might be able to return to China and work and live there. And then it became very hard. I couldn't get a visa. When my parents were dying, especially my mother, she stayed in the hospital for more than three years. So I tried very hard. I couldn't go back. But after my parents passed away, my feeling really have changed. I really, I'm no longer eager to go back. Not because I don't like the place or I don't have the longing, but I have to be rational about this. Because after 30 years, you can't find your place in life there anymore. And I, myself, as an individual, I have also changed, right? It's different. It will be very hard for me to re-adapt to the culture, the official culture, especially. So in many ways, I am Americanized. I feel that's a good thing. A lucky thing happened to me. Yeah. One reason I was so happy to be able to have this conversation and to meet Ha Jin is I think you're a tremendously courageous man and that you've been very principled in your writing career. He is not in a direct way, often in a very subtle way, showing us what life is like in China. And I'm sure it hasn't made you very popular with the government there. Would you worry if you suddenly got an invitation to go back, would you worry that maybe you couldn't get out again? I think if they allowed me to go back, I could get out. But they would not allow me to go back. I got invitations regularly. Sometimes, for instance, a university would say, we give you this award, and the dean of the university would send me a letter. But it doesn't work. It doesn't mean the dean got approval from the government. So they don't coordinate at all. They don't. So that's why I don't, I think a big problem for a lot of exiles, in my case, I'm both an immigrant and also exiled. But for most exiles, because people tend to think the country will change, and you wait. Then basically, very often, the whole life is wasted. You can't expect a country to change its course or all mandates waste. The country does not change. One thing that struck me, as in the last couple of days, I've been thinking about you, I've been rereading you, reading this new book, is that this book is so different in the way that it celebrates a great Chinese literary figure that this might be the time when suddenly people over there would say, oh, well, this isn't controversial politically. Why don't we have him back and suggest, please don't talk about politics, just talk about Li Bai. I really don't know, because the way the narration, you know, the approach is somehow, also, you kind of separate the writing from politics. Because Li Bai, the book basically tried to describe Li Bai as really a spirit. He kept fighting, always believed he is superior to most officials, even to the aristocrats. But in the end, he became a loser. That's clear. But eventually, eventually, you know, because he trumped all the politics. Although I must say, having said what I just said, he manages to slip in a lot of little subtle comments, right, about, I mean, I remember, toward the beginning of the book, you're talking about the Tang Dynasty, and you say Tang Dynasty was very tolerant toward foreigners and so on, much more so than at, the government is at present. Sure, yes, yes. And Daesh, and then you keep going, right? That's clear, because, you know, in the book, you can see the two top, highest ranking, the top marshals, one, Ge Shuhan, in charge of the Western Army. The other one is An Lushan, in charge of the Eastern Army. The two highest generals, they were foreigners. But imagine nowadays, in China, it's impossible. Any important position would be, you know, foreigners would be excluded from all the other, all the major positions. How do you, I mean, you have a unique perspective, having been here so long, knowing China as well as you do, and again, I don't know how many people know his biography, went into the Liberation Army at 13, 14? Yes, I'm, yes, it's, I mean, you know. What, did you lie about your age, or why did you get in so early? Yes, well, it was, at the time, because my father was an officer, so the required age was 16, so I lied about my age. Oh, you did lie about your age, okay. Yeah, because all my pals, they were going, but they were older than me, so we went as a group. So, with all these years here, and, you know, with your own acknowledgement about how much you've been Americanized, when you think about how Americans think about Chinese, what do we get wrong, what stupid stereotypes do we have? You know, it has been a long history, with the two countries, we made a lot of mistakes, and I think that that's tendency, that the United States very often sacrifice its principles, especially when there are some really profits, and again, material gain of wealth at stake, and then very often, we tend to forget what really is more important. And, for instance, even currently, you know, originally, President Trump presented five or six items for the Chinese to agree with, but then the last one gradually was dropped, because there are other trade purchases, all the others, the material gain overwhelmed ideas. But in the long run, I do feel that the principles are important. For instance, we allowed China to get into, join the World Trade Organization, assuming that, you know, by doing trading, the country will open and reform itself. It didn't work that way. Basically, just help the regime get wealthy, and got more capital, basically. So I think that there are a lot of mistakes, you know. Did you, are you disappointed when you think about all the time since you left China? Did you agree with that widely shared view that China will slowly become more democratic as it opens up in trade, and so on? I mean, now we're seeing, and I was telling Ha Jin at dinner, I was at Fudan University in Shanghai for about four months this year, and every Chinese colleague I talked to said, they're cracking down, it's getting worse, freedoms are disappearing. That we even had within the university. Everybody thought there was gonna be an opening up, as there was in Taiwan, going from an autocracy to, when you look back now, does it seem a big disappointment that maybe things are getting even worse under President Xi? Yes, certainly. At this moment, it's very, really, there's a huge step backward. But I think slowly China is still moving, making progress, eventually. But this is a slow process. It should be measured by generation. It's not just what happened in a few years. So that's why I do believe in engagement. Even the trade part, I support the World Trade Organization acceptance of China. But in hindsight, we really, we were not careful enough. We were too optimistic. Yeah, with engagement, we had this conversation, but at dinner, I almost feel ashamed, sitting next to him, across from dinner, here's a man who has not been able to go back to his country. For all these years, I have gone to China a fair amount in recent years, and always feel like a 51% pro-engagement, 49%, I don't wanna have anything to do with you, Chinese government. But you were saying that engagement is the right choice to help young people. Yes, also, it can put pressure on the regime. That's very important. If we just close the door, let the Chinese do whatever they want, then it's like a prison camp. All the inmates will do, will commit violence against each other, it will be too much. So the external pressure is very important. I wanna go back to, again, Li Bai as a personality. So I just wonder, at first, when I learned about your book, I thought, well, quite a departure for you. But then as I read the book, I thought, maybe not quite a departure for you, because of the type of character he was, that you're sort of celebrating an individualist who lived in a free way, and maybe there's a much more subtle explanation of how that fits with your other work. In fact, I learned a lot, also, I am moved by the project. He was a great talent. On the other hand, because his father was a merchant, so he belonged to the lower state of society, and he was not allowed to enter the civil service exam. But on the other hand, he always believed that he belonged to the court. And he did, he ended up there, even after he died, and he was again summoned by the emperor. So there is a kind of a triumph, just because of his talent, not because, just his talent, his poetic achievement, that made him really transcend beyond all these officials. I'm gonna ask you now a question about your fiction over the years. It seems to me you're not a specialist in happy endings. I know, you're right, yes, yes, yes. You know, there's really very somber tales, and Waiting, and The Boat Rocker, and some of your other books. We were talking a bit about the Nobel Prize, which this guy should get, by the way. A lot of people don't know the Nobel Prize in its technical criteria is supposed to be for a writer of a, quote, idealistic tendency, unquote. And that has been an explanation over the years for why people like Graham Greene or Borges didn't get it, because they were too downbeat or ironic. When you think about your work, I mean, it's really very subtle, a lot of your work about how things don't work out, like the relationship in Waiting, and so on. Do you see yourself as having a very somber view that you can't help expressing in your novels? Yes, very often I think, not exactly happy ending, but I wouldn't say the endings are hopeless. Very often there is a kind of some light. But what I want to emphasize very often is that life continues, whether we like it or not. So that's very Chekhovian in a sense. Chekhov, we don't have a lot of happy ending, but you do feel that life is like this, and no matter what happened, people carry on. So I want to carry that kind of tradition. Is it challenging for you when you think about China, given how long it's been since you've been there? Obviously, you can access TV and read things and all of that. Do you worry at all about, I don't know, getting contemporary slang wrong, or not knowing that there's a building there now, or used to be a field? How do you deal with that problem as a writer? And in fact, it's not just me. In fact, there are a lot of China scholars. We talked about them. And also the same with the writers. The Chinese government assume that if we cut you off for 10, 20 years, you basically, you can't write about China anymore, right? And so to a small degree, that might be true, because if I talk about the current China, I could get some details, but a lot of tangible things, I could get them wrong. But on the other hand, they don't understand that subject matters are really deeply rooted in the writers. It's come from within, not from outside. So there are always things to do. There are always books to write. So I really, that's not, in other words, I think subject matter is, it's kind of, depends on the vitality of the writer. If your life and you have more energy, you can find new things to write. So it's not, I don't think it is a big problem. When many writers who have come here from other countries continue to write about their home countries, some of them are afraid to write about this country. Others take the risk. When you think about writing, let's say, a novel about Boston, or a novel that would mainly be based in Boston or so on, or in the United States, I mean, do you see that as more challenging, less challenging, unattractive? Different kind, I think different kind of challenge. For instance, I have a collection of stories set in Flushing. Also, I have a new novel set in Boston. Boston, I'm more confident because I lived there for so many years. But the problem is not just the setting, the details. It's the language. Once you talk about, when you describe the immigrant experience, very often on the same page, you have people, foreigners and native speakers, they interact, so how they talk. All of those, that kind of details. I think the big issue is the American idiom. In my case, very often, because I live here so long, I could be too American. But I know writers from, even from England, it's very hard to get the idioms right. In fact, if you look at Graham Greene's The Quiet American, there are still phrases like blood group instead of blood type. And there are phrases like that. Over the years, edition after edition, he tried to basically replace the Britishism with American idioms. But there are still some. So that's a problem for many writers, not just foreigners. So you've been here so long, your editor sometimes is responding to your manuscript by saying, your Chinese characters sound like Jewish Americans from Brooklyn. You need to make it more Chinese. No, they wouldn't do that, but I have to. I think most editors will say, make this American. But very often, what if it's an immigrant? So that is a big challenge. You can't use a new arrival to speak standard American. This may sound like a crazy question, but after reading Waiting, I had this question for you. Do you think there's a different concept of love between Chinese and Westerners? Yes, I think so. I think so, yes. Especially maybe the younger generation, I think the difference now currently maybe is narrowed. But conventionally, yes, I would think the Chinese, very often, the sense of family is much stronger. Marriage very often became a kind of a bondage in a way. No matter whether you like it, you're supposed to be together. That's one part. Another part I think is, I think this has something to do with communism. The communist government or the revolutionaries, over the years, they tried to basically control people, all the energy, all the creative energy, including sexual energy, so that it can transform the energy to serve the revolutionary cause. So that book, I don't think people have written about that dimension. In a way, it is kind of 1984 in the kind of emotional, sexual context. That part, that energy was controlled. That affect people's attitude toward love. So for instance, in my, when I was growing up, it would be very simple if two men and a woman they make up and caught by others. Basically, some people would be either fired or occasionally even sent to jail. So that kind of a suppression eventually affect the people deeply. Let me just give you a very kind of superficial example. A lot of Chinese who learn English, I think when they say, I love you, it's very natural. But when you send email, you can say, I love you, between the couple, that's very natural. But people don't say that in Chinese. As if the language itself had some kind of a controlling, constraining force. If I might just follow up just for one second. So there was a newspaper article the other day saying that Asians in general don't say I love you as much. I was surprised when I was in China, one of the ways that you sort of say hello is ne chu le ma, have you eaten? Yeah, yes, sure, yes. So is there a sideways way of saying I love you? Like, you're looking good today, or? No, people don't say that, they don't say that, yeah. So if you know English, it's very natural so that people just use this, I love you. And so that, again, but that's mean people emotion, they don't understand love, they don't have, they do have the feelings. Somehow that was suppressed. I teach a high school literature class that includes your story, Ocean of Words, and also the story Love Must Not Be Forgotten, Shang Xing, and I encourage students to make connections. And when we were talking about not so much Ocean of Words, but Waiting, as one of your other works, and I briefly outlined the plot, they said that that sounded like the man's side of her story. Do you have any thoughts on that? That was written about maybe 20 years before your story, so I don't know whether it was an influence or not. So we are talking about the Love Must Be Forgotten, or Waiting? Was Waiting influenced? Oh, I see, yeah, sure. The man's perspective. I see, I see, yeah. And Love Must Not Be Forgotten is her perspective. Okay, sure. In fact, I really, I know that novel, but because I was writing, I wrote Waiting in English, it was, there was a real happening. In fact, the character, Lin Kong, the model was my wife's teacher. So basically, it was really the kernel of the story is real, what's real. So when I was, that means, when I was writing, really, I couldn't think of anything else. I tried to figure out the psychology of this couple. If they really, they will carry on for 18 years, the man should at least know the woman better. Why the marriage wouldn't work? So for me, really, that was my question. Maybe because of the social environment, the same social environment, this is how maybe some details or drama overlap. But I don't think there was any conscious reflection. Hi, do your characters speak Chinese, or do they speak English in your own head? Because I write English, so very often, I think, especially in my early works, very often, even nowadays, sure, they speak Chinese, but because I write English, they have, well, I give them a kind of, some kind of foreignness to their English. So that's why, that's more complicated. On the same page, there is a non-native speaker. Sometimes, nobody, in fact, are actual English speakers. So but what, how can I make this communicable? So we should keep in mind that if you write fiction, everything is artificial. So the so-called authenticity is an illusion. But the problem is how you can convey that feeling so the reader can suspend the disbelief. So that, I think that it was the principle. There was no way you, I think there are, I saw fiction written in both English and Chinese. That would be very, I think it was very messy. Very few readers could understand both languages. Anyway, so the first question is about Li Bai. Apparently, I'm a fan. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. Since five years old, you know, like every other Chinese children, I recited his poems. And so my question is that I haven't had a chance to go through the whole book. I was wondering, so what's your view about his himself as, you know, in the end, like you said, you know, he lost, you know, to the society, at least for that era. But what's your view on his, is he a victim of the, how would I say, the Tang Dynasty or in general, the Chinese imperialism? Because as a character, he's, I mean, as a person, he's free-spirited, which is the least suitable for the court, you know, to serve the court. But on the other hand, he is also restricted by the view, shi er you ze shi, right? So if you excel, you know, intellectually, you're supposed to serve the court. At least that's the ancient beliefs in Chinese philosophy or, you know, for generations of intellectuals, even till today, I think. So, and what's your view on that? You know, in terms, he's the victim of the, especially, you know, the coup caused by Anshi Zhilan. So An Lushan and Shi Siming caused the coup d'etat. So the second question is rather personal. Many years ago, I was at a school at the swimming pool. We have this sauna gang at Pan Swimming Pool, and so we're always discussing about the translation of poetry. I personally think it's very difficult, especially from a different language like Chinese to English. I personally, honestly, haven't read any great translations yet. So I was wondering, how do you view this topic, especially how do you carry something like the best spirit into the translation? I read a few in your book. I think it's, you know, very well done, but still, there are things lost in translation. There's no way you can make up for it. Sure. Let me answer your questions, the second one first. And there is always a tremendous amount of loss in translation. In fact, his poetry is very intricate. There is always a regulated kind of a rhythmical pattern. Rhymes, always rhymed. And so, but I don't think anybody should do it in English, because it would be very clunky. And for me, there's another concern, that is how, in terms of sentiment and narrative flow, how these poems could be blended into the narration for the biography. So for me, I decided to just translate the poems in current, straightforward English. The loss was unavoidable. So there was no way to do it otherwise, in my case. The other part, I wouldn't say whether he is a, he was a victim of the court or the social system. When we have to think about it from now, from our perspective, from our perspective, he's greater than all those, the whole dynasty. The dynasty became glorious because it produced this kind of pose. For me, this is more interesting. So really, the trouble is from within. That's why, as a character, he's more interesting. In fact, in one of his poems, he said, I tried to divine and reach, but I've wasted my life. You can't have both, right? The spiritual concern and also worldly comfort, material gain, you can't have both. But he does have that kind of conflict, deeply rooted in himself. To some extent, I think we forgot he was also a snob. It doesn't mean he was, the snobbery diminished him, only make him more interesting to us because we all have some kind of defects in our character. I think that's why, for me, those are really more important, more engaging. But ultimately, I think it was his poetic achievement and that basically eclipsed all the dynasty, the emperors. We don't know many of the emperors' names anymore. But Li Bai, his lines, his achievement basically more or less shaped the language we use. So for me, those are more important. Art always survives and after the politics. First of all, thank you. I very much enjoyed reading your most recent book and it gave me some insights into Chinese history. That's what my question is about, really, going back to your discussion together about what Americans had hoped for from China and expected and how we understand and don't understand each other. It seems one of the main things that have come out of the long course of Chinese history that Chinese understand is that when the central government is weak, bad things happen. Whether it's going way back or the time of the opium wars leading to the unequal treaties in the mid-19th century, invasion from without. And it seems that that lesson is there for Chinese today. And when the United States looks at that, I don't think we understand. We don't have a long view. We have a short view of history. And specifically, when we're looking at the role of China in the U.S. today, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this, is that the Chinese, obviously governed by the Chinese Communist Party, but it seems that they choose people like middle-level managers and others based on competency. Once you get beyond the politics, they're choosing people that are competent in certain areas. And so it's no surprise that in the last 70 years, China has lifted 800 million people out of poverty. And when you look at what's happening in this country, we seem to be going backward. And we're not a democracy trying to export democracy. We're a plutocracy. And Americans are beginning to come to grips with that. So I'm wondering, where do we meet? We can't expect China to be like us. China can't expect us to be like them. But what can we learn from each other? And what can we take as Americans if we understand more about people like Li Bai and other parts of Chinese history that we could help us to understand what those issues are that we could work together on? I think what you said is very interesting. I think in the long run, the overall picture, we can see that the two countries should try to learn from each other. But at this moment, we should keep in mind, at this moment, China is sliding back to the old three decades ago. There is a chance that the revolution, the Cultural Revolution, that kind of occurrence might happen again. So I think that at this point, we can't say that we can learn from China at this point. I do feel that external pressure is necessary. Because, for instance, in the case of Xi Jinping, basically, he's struggling to hold on to the power, not because of his love for power, because it's a matter of survival. His family might be eliminated if he loses it. So I think that's kind of desperation. That's different. The fundamental difference is Chinese is one-party rule. It's a dictatorship. Whereas in this country, we have five years election. You know, if really people don't like the president, we can get rid of him, right? And so that is a fundamental difference. I think the mid-level, what you talk about, the mid-level bureaucrats, to some, in some aspects, that was true. But not always true, because the first criteria, Xi Jinping emphasized, again, again, that's a loyalty. That is the first principle. If you are not loyal to the party, even to himself, then you are not qualified to be a leader. So basically, it doesn't mean every capable person can have the opportunity to serve. No, and only after you really convince people above you that you are faithful, loyal to the party. See, the two systems work differently. We have a lot of problems in this country. I do believe, in fact, I don't believe pure capitalism. I think that the United States have gone too far in that direction, but China basically is worse, in many ways, worse. So I think that's why at this moment, historically speaking, really, a democracy should not retreat anymore. We have retreated too much. Well, first of all, I hope your wife is recovered and that you are doing well. Thank you. Would you pick a poem from the book that you have translated, I mean, the poem that you've translated, and read it to us and talk a little bit about why it's important to you? Okay, let me read one, maybe slightly longer one, so they can feel the difference between the two. I'm going to read it in Chinese, in the original, you know, the way Li Bai wrote it, and then I'll read my translation. So you can see that the sentiment, the cadence is very different. This is a very dramatic moment in his life. For decades, he tried hard to gain a position in the official system without success, but once he was on the road constantly to meet people, but once he was wandering, at the time, he was wandering not too far away from his home in the area of Mount Tai, Tai Shan, and he got a letter from the emperor summoning him to the court to be a counselor. That was a huge moment. He was very happy he returned home to say goodbye to his children, but by this time, his first wife had died, and he had a woman living with him because somebody had to take care of his children so that he could again set out on the road. And so now he is home to say goodbye and also prepare himself for the road to Chang'an, Chang'an was the capital at the time. Here's the original. Bai Jiu Xin Shu San Dong Gui, Huang Ji Zuo Shu Qiu Zheng Fei, Hu Tong Peng Ji Zuo Bai Jiu, Er Nu Xi Xiao Qian Ren Yi, Gao Ge Qi Zui Yu Zi Wei, Qi Wu Luo Ri Zeng Guang Hui, You Shuo Wan Cheng Ku Bu Zao, Zhuo Bian Kua Ma She Yuan Dao, Kuai Ji Yu Fu Qing Mai Chen, Yu Yi Ci Jia Xi Ru Qin, Yang Tian Da Xiao Zou Shu Men, Wo Bei Qi Shi Peng Hao Ren. But here's my translation. When I return from the mountain, white liquor is just ripe in the brewery, and yellow chickens are fat, are picking up grains in the autumn light. I call the servant boy to cook a chicken and take a jar of the white liquor as my children are frolicking around me, pulling the hands of my robe. I sing the drink to comfort myself, then dance to outshine the sunset. Having traveled far and met powerful lords, now is the time to spur my horse for a long road. The stupid woman used to mock her man, but now I'm going to Chang'an in the west. Laughing loud with my head thrown back, I walk after the front gate. How can a man like myself stay in the weeds for too long? The two lines, the final lines, people still use it. Very ambitious, a very ambitious young person would say, how a person like myself can stay in the weeds for too long? So that's part of the language. Thank you, I really love your books. It's just a quick question. I just turned to the page that you just read and the very simple question, why they are in traditional Chinese characters, but not the simplified, you know, like contemporary Chinese? Is that on purpose? No, this is not, this is, I think I used traditional complicated Chinese here, no? Let me see, 148, right? 158. I think it's traditional Chinese, yes. Complex characters, it's not simplified. Because, and, oh, when we talk about Tang poetry, always, you know, in the States, also in the world, you always use complex characters because they were written, the poems were written in complex characters. You can't simplify the poetry, you can't do that. That's just, I think we try to stay faithful to the original. I've been to China just once, and went specifically to see the modern galleries to see what artists would just speak out and say, and so I went to Gallery 798, and for me, the visual artist that I'm really fascinated right now is Ai Weiwei, and you're familiar with him? I know, I think we had some kind of communication, but I don't know him personally. I'm making some comparisons to him and like Benjamin Franklin, and that he's in so many areas at the same time that he's definitely figured a lot, so I was just curious if you knew him, but he's also been jailed a few times in China, and all the galleries in New York would love to show his work. You say, if I hear you right, Benjamin Franklin? Recently, in the last couple weeks, he was compared to, because he's in a lot of different areas, he speaks politically, he does visual work, but he's thinking in a lot of directions at the same time. Franklin was one of our founding fathers, right? And also, when you read his autobiography, there was so much wisdom in it. That's very important, unique. He's a man down to earth, a very plain man, but he affected the United States, the political system deeply, the Senate and the House, the Congress, and so I think it's different. There are two different kind of person, and my impression was that Ben Franklin was not that artistic, but he was extremely practical, capable, and wise. So, in other words, he has a bigger influence. That's my argument. And the Chinese destroyed Ai Weiwei's studio. I know. And we rebuilt Benjamin Franklin's house, so there's a little difference there. Okay, well, let's thank. Oh, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you.