What Trucking Shows About a Split Economy | Craig Fuller

The trucking activity can be a good indicator on the health of the economy. It can also give us details of which sectors are doing it well and which sectors are not. Today we sit down with Craig Fuller, who's monitoring the activity of truckers through his company Freight Waves. He will tell us that he's seeing a shift currently in the economy and what this shift is about. One of the things that we're seeing right now is this really interesting shift in the economy away from really what I call consumer-led activity to more industrial-led activity. And this is a pretty substantial shift. You don't see a slowdown despite the cost being a lot more, like 25% higher. You either are going to move stuff or you're not. And it's not like other types of purchases. Price can continue to go up and people will pay to move it because they have to. I'm Siamak. Welcome to Market Insider. Craig, it's great to have you on. Welcome. Thanks for having me. We want to talk to you about what's going on in the transportation industry, especially with the diesel prices being so high. Is there still demand? What are you seeing out there? Yeah, it's really interesting because the freight industry is oftentimes the best barometer of the overall U.S. economy. And because of the way supply chains work, freight moves earlier than a lot of the consumer activities or even shows up in government data, certainly, or even Wall Street. Freight gives you an advanced look at the economy because people are not moving products unless they have demand on the other side. Ultimately, people are moving freight because there's some need to move those products from point A to point B. And so one of the things that we're seeing right now is this really interesting shift in the economy away from really what I call consumer-led activity to more industrial-led activity. And this is a pretty substantial shift and, frankly, has probably not existed in our economy for at least over a decade. And so the industrial economy is doing actually quite well. You can see this in the ISM data. You could see it in the railroads. They put out weekly rail reports. That data is very promising. But then the consumer actually doesn't look great. And it might reflect what consumers are feeling personally is things feel a little off for consumers. Prices are a concern. But I think the noise is also a concern, the noise being all of the questions about the war, higher gasoline and diesel prices. All of that is wearing on consumers. And then in the background, the primary driver of economic activity is AI. And yet we're told it's going to end humanity or has a chance of ending humanity. So it's like this wonderful gift to the economy is actually causing a lot of distress. And so now consumers and people are sort of fighting. And whether they're doing it out in public, protesting, or online, or just feeling uneasy with so much of this activity, I think that's sapping consumer confidence. At the same time, the consumers are told that they're not going to have jobs also if AI doesn't destroy humanity. They're not going to have a job. The degrees of it's Terminator, and we're all going to end, and the machines are going to take over is sort of one extreme. And probably the highest risk, right? The fact that that's even mentioned is sort of scary. And then everything in between, including your job is going to be eliminated. These data centers are sapping all the power and water in my community. So the noise is not helping. I think what you would otherwise suggest is probably one of the greatest economic impacts and capital infrastructure build outs in human history. And so it is such an interesting place to look at it to say, this economy is confusing because it is unprecedented. Now, Craig, what are you seeing in the truckloads? We've covered the fact that we have trillions of dollars of investments is supposed to come to the U.S. from different countries. But a lot of people have doubt whether if this is real or not. What kind of data are you seeing that is telling you that the build out is stronger than the consumer economy? Well, it's definitely happening. I mean, I can tell you, again, one of the great things about freight data or one of the elements that we track is volume of goods moved and people do not move. You can have a lot of manipulation in commodity markets, energy markets, financial markets. Even if it's not manipulation, these algorithmic trading patterns that you see can oftentimes outstretch reality, which is why commodity traders are always looking at the fundamental data and the technical data and sort of treating them differently. Technical data helps you make a lot of money sort of short term. Fundamentals help you make money and preserve money long term. And so the thing about freight data is it is all fundamental data, like you're ultimately looking at the economy and goods movement. And so we know that the industrial economy is doing quite well relative to what it's been. And the reason we know that is we look at the commodity shipments. It's things like steel. It's things like aluminum. It's things like the chemicals, the petrochemicals that are shipping is absolutely happening. Materials are happening. So when we look at trucking data and rail, because both of those are really important metrics in industrial activity, we are seeing record volumes in what we call flatbed trucking. The flatbed is the stuff where it's stacked. You're driving down the highway and you're looking at these big steel beams, there's lumber. And so that is what we call a flatbed. That is the wheel, the generator, the workhorse of the industrial economy. No one is receiving flatbeds to their house for consumer goods. If you're building a home, that's usually been the stuff that would be on flatbed is a single family homes. It still is, but it used to be the primary engine of flatbed activity. Housing, I think everyone knows how weak housing is. It's sort of sitting this round out, but yet the flatbed industry is receiving record activity, record demand, and that is all industrial activities. So then we ask ourselves, okay, what is really happening in the economy that's creating industrial activity? And if you sort of look at the components of the data in terms of individual commodities moving, it is largely related to data center related activity and defense related activity. So it's data centers, power generation, I sort of loop those in together. You could argue that power generation, energy infrastructure should be separate and perhaps they should be, but really it's a combination of AI data center built out, power transmission, energy, because U.S. energy supplies are so robust. We are just globally in terms of output, if you include the United States in that, the world's largest energy suppliers, but we're also now an exporting nation and that is driving a lot of investment in energy infrastructure. And then defense is also one of the biggest generators. So those things are really what we're seeing. And then we sort of go back to the consumer. When we look at the containerized freight, which tends to be much more sensitive around consumer activity, it's relatively weak to what you would expect with the GDP numbers being as robust as they are. Can you see in the data, so it might be hard to actually track this, but is there a way to tell how much of the industrial, is there a component of manufacturing, or is it kind of mixed together with the data center? You cannot tell how much of it is data center built out, how much of it is manufacturing, because there were some thoughts of some of manufacturing coming back. Well, I think it is coming back, and I do think tariffs show up in the data, particularly around some of the metals, steel and aluminum are probably the best examples of where tariffs are certainly encouraging investment. But tariffs, while they create an enormous amount of noise short term, they don't necessarily create a lot of activity in terms of big capital investments. And so it's hard to really point to a tariff saying the reason that this is happening is strictly because of tariffs, I would be stretched. I would actually suggest that tariffs have done more damage to short-term industrial activity, and you can see that in last year's data, is that there was so much happening that last year was a relatively weak freight market, particularly around industrials. And I think what was happening is there wasn't a lot of new production and new plants. It's very hard to do that when you have a set of fluid tariff policies. It is the level of unpredictability, which I think the administration would argue is a feature, not a bug, created some industrial pullback, some investment pullback, as companies had to recalibrate and figure out where they're making investments. I think the courts certainly played a little bit of havoc on that in terms of a lot of questions of what's going to hold up, what doesn't. And I think we saw a pretty substantial pullback in investment in the industrial sector last year that has, in many ways, this year has come back quickly, but it's come back in shape quite different than what perhaps you would expect. There's no toy companies producing toys in the United States. The stuff that was being tariffed was a blanket instrument, very blunt, across the economy. It didn't necessarily change patterns. I'm using toys as an example because the vast majority of toys are imported. They're very low value goods, and we're never going to see toy plants pop up in the United States. Maybe Lego, because of the premium nature of it, could get away with putting a plant in the US. But generally, toys are one of those categories that are going to find the lowest cost producers. And there's really very little, despite the tariffs, to go put production. Apparel, you could link to that as well. The stuff that is coming back is the higher value industrial goods that you would see in a data center build out, again, energy infrastructure. And we know that from the commodities being moved. When we look at steel and aluminum and plastics and chemicals, we know who are the consumers of those products. And therefore, we can derive something substantial as pulling on those product categories. And you look at where those products are going. That's the great thing about freight data. As you look at location, you can see that they're going into an AI data center build out or into that ecosystem, into that supply chain. Now, diesel prices are a record, and I'm sure this has an impact in your industry. And do you see that having an impact on freight rates? And how does the freight rates look right now? And is it impacting both of these sectors? How does it impact the consumer goods and then these industrial goods? Well, it certainly is having an impact. But we look at so diesel isn't as correlated to transportation prices as perhaps you would naturally assume. Only about a third of the price of freight can be answered in energy movement. I'm far to the price of movement in freight. So you can have two very disparate prices. One is what we call line haul, which is the transportation from point A to point B that has nothing to do with energy. And the other is the fuel surcharge or diesel surcharge that's tapped on top of it. And you can strip those out to sort of get an understanding of what is the underlying transportation cost, if diesel was flat, if it was basically not an effective price was not moving. And what we know from the data is that prices for transportation are going up despite or in addition to diesel. But transportation prices will be going up regardless of what's happening in diesel. It's just another input that's part of that equation. So really, if you are buying transportation services, you're getting hit from two cost inputs, tighter capacity, I want you to think about freight as a commodity, which is always hard to do, because we think about commodities and things that we can tangibly hold. But ultimately, freight is a price driven market, where people will always go to the lowest cost providers or orientated to the lowest cost providers. And therefore, it trades, not necessarily in a futures market, but is bought and sold like a commodity price moves substantially, even when you take the price of energy out of it. And what we know is the price of transportation is moving up regardless of the price of energy. However, energy is also moving up, which is creating a compounding effect for buyers of transportation services. And how much is it moving up? What have you seen? So transportation, I'm going to take what we call the line haul portion, which is the transportation itself without energy in that equation. And that is up about 25% year over year if we're talking spot markets. So and what is driving that now that is trucking, I want to be very clear when I'm talking about it's trucking rates, not ocean because ocean is also a factor in here. Those rates are up as much as 300% year over year. And so when you look at what's driving it is there's less capacity. Why is it less capacity? The US, the federal government under this administration has put a lot of energy, no pun intended towards enforcement of truck driver registrations, regulations. And so what they're saying is over the last two decades, there's been this massive influx of unregulated, unregistered, and then their argument, and there's data support this unsafe drivers entering the market. It's been a free for all. And what's happened is you've ended up with a safety, security and economic crisis for trucking companies all at the same time. And I want you to think about the fact that trucking labor drivers is the capacity constraint in the freight market. It's not the number of trucks, the truck manufacturers can produce more, they'll never stop producing more if they thought there was demand, they will open up new plants, they'll run more shifts. That has never been the capacity constraint. It's been can you get truck drivers to sit in those seats and drive those trucks. And that is the constraint in the market. And so over the last two decades, a very large percent of the truck drivers that entered the market are immigrants, both legal immigrants that are properly documented, very trained and amazing workers, and undocumented or illegal immigrants that, in some cases can be great drivers, but don't have the necessary regulations or paperwork to or permits to even drive trucks. And then you have this really bad group of actors, which are both undocumented, and are unsafe. And they're the ones that are driving a lot of the attention. And unfortunately, those immigrants that, you know, are doing hard work or amazing workers are getting caught up in that as well. And I think that is causing a pretty substantial amount of pressure on capacity. Because new entrants are not new drivers are not entering the market. Immigrants largely are exiting the trucking industry, or at least that's we have a large number of exits. And there's no new entrance coming in. Again, I want to remind everyone that immigration is a an enormous labor pool, both legal immigration and illegal, you know, illegal immigration. And because of these pressures, even legal immigrants are sort of staying away from the trucking industry. And I think, rightfully so, they don't want to get caught up in it. They don't want to deal with the hassles, they're finding alternative work. And as we see more immigration enforcement, they're finding alternative work, you probably have noticed, we've been in Uber lately, the majority of your Uber drivers are former truck drivers, ask them, what were you doing before you took this job? I always like to do that. And it's interesting how many are former truck drivers. And these are people who were not born here in the United States. What's the impact on the costs? So this 25% of freight rates have gone up. Does that include the diesel costs or the diesel costs on top of that is on top of that freight rates, the line haul rates are up 25%. Diesel is an additional input or an additional cost input and diesel prices on a year over year basis, or, you know, in some cases have doubled. Over the past year, we've seen diesel prices double on the national average. And that is certainly showing up in the data and is impacting consumer prices, but also core output prices. Is it a significant portion of the transportation costs? Or is it like 10-20%? Is it 30%? Do you have any thoughts? So diesel as a sort of percent of total mile per gallon, what we would translate in terms of price, today, represents about a third. Okay, you mentioned it was a third. Yes, yes. In a in a market like a year ago, it would represent, you know, as low as, you know, 12 to 15% of the overall cost of transportation. So it moves because these are independent variables, the line haul rate, which is the underlying movement of point A to point B net of fuel is also moving up, but diesel has moved up faster relative to line haul. And therefore, it today represents about a third of that cost. Now, you don't see a slowdown, despite the cost being a lot more like 25% higher. Trade is one of those things that is not it's not a discretionary cost, like you either are going to move stuff or you're not. And it's not like other types of purchases. Consumers will sit out and not buy a new car because it's expensive. Maybe interest rates sort of tell them, hey, it's not a good time to go make these big investments. They will even trade down from say, you know, maybe maybe they skew steak and they go to chicken. When you look at Costco's data, they publish this data, where they talk about consumers trading down, they went from buying steak to buying chicken to buying, you know, more now processed meats. Trading down is a big piece of it. But freight is not one of those things you trade down for you either buy it, transportation services, because you have a reason to move it or you don't. And the only reason you should buy transportation services because you need to move something. And so there is no element where somebody says it's a very elastic market, and the sense that price can continue to go up and people will pay to move it because they have to. And so that's one of the great reasons that it's such a barometer for economic activity is because it's not something that people opt in and out of. They're not going to delay the movement of goods by because transportation prices are high. Now there's going to be some edge cases and some anecdotes and I'm sure somebody will comment on the comments about, well, I didn't do that. But generally, people are not looking at transportation or shipping costs and opting out for something when we're talking about at the macro level. And so the prices are sort of irrelevant in terms of telling us whether or not consumers are purchasing these goods or not. They're really more of a reflection of supply and demand. And that's why I love the data because it tells us the truth and oftentimes and is not manipulated. People can manipulate the financial markets related to oil. And you'll see this where they'll take these financial contracts and get pretty sophisticated and they'll take positions and that changes the forward curve and therefore we look at the price of oil dropping or increasing based on sort of the financial manipulation that's going on. And it's all legal when I say manipulation. It's just the way the financial markets work. In freight, it has nothing to do with that. It's either there was somebody buying something to move or moving something that they bought or not. It's the actual data. It's the real data of people doing what they're doing. That's right. And what we know is that demand in the industrial economy is actually quite high and consumer activity is dropping. Now, let's parse a little bit of the consumer activity because I think this is a fascinating piece of data. Oddly, is consumer packaged goods, particularly food and beverage, is the weakest part of the consumer. Now, we'll put housing aside for a second. But the weakest part of consumer activity is in consumer packaged goods, food and beverage. Now, the interesting thing, if you go back to 2008 during the financial crisis, food actually increased. We saw consumption of things like snacks and beverages increased, not lower. And yes, inflation is a part of that. We hear that from soda companies talking about aluminum prices. It's showing up in their data. It's costing them more. We do know that inflation is a factor in some of it. But the types of stuff that we've seen a drop is not... Consumers will trade down. So think about this from a perspective of your own life, is when a price sort of shocks you, you go to a restaurant and you're like, oh my gosh, that restaurant was... The meal that used to cost $20 now costs $60. And I've had price shock too, where I'm just like, I can't believe that this has gotten so expensive. Interesting enough is that grocery, bought at grocery stores, tends to be a lot less, a lot less inflation and tends to move more product. But yet we're seeing grocery volumes drop. It is not a price standpoint. Consumers are still consuming the same amount. Conceptually, if it was just price, then consumers may trade down to a cheaper go from filet to flank steak or flank steak to chicken. They're still consuming a unit of a volume. So for my world, goods, I don't really care what the price of the goods moved. I just care about the volume. And what's interesting is that something else is slowing consumption of food and bed. So now we have a more interesting question. If it's not inflation, which I don't believe the food and bed situation in terms of the volume of goods purchased is necessarily inflationary related, because actually the high volume goods tend to be highly processed. And it tend to be the lowest vet, like lowest cost items in the grocery store. But those are the ones that are dropping something else in the data is telling us that consumer behavior is changing right before our eyes. And so we would attest that there's a couple of things that benefits have been cut. That would explain some of it for sure. Population. Again, we're looking at units consumed, not dollars consumed. Population is dropping. We can see it in the grocery data. There are just fewer consumers buying groceries. Therefore, it's there. But we also believe that GOP ones and the whole health movement, whether you believe that Kennedy is the smartest guy in the administration or he's not at all, the whole awareness on health and consumption, the Maha movement, even if you're not a diehard Kennedy guy, that noise out there, consumers are becoming aware of the stuff that's in their food. This highly processed food is changing. Consumers are eschewing highly processed foods. And they may be trading up or trading down to something else. But they're just they're staying away from sort of these high snack categories. And so that tells us that something else is really, really happening. And we it's again, SNAP benefits, population, and GOP ones and health generally are dragging down consumer consumption of food and bev. So it's not the economical issues. I think, look, the economy is certainly there. Inflation is there. It's certainly having there. But consumers are still at the end of the day, you got to eat. And you wouldn't cut eating, you would cut other things. Yeah, if you're trading down, maybe you don't buy the, you know, the name brand ice cream, but you buy the grocery store ice cream, by the way, Walmart, you know, I go to Walmart, I might shift from Breyers to the great value, great, great value, ice cream is really good. And it's like half the price. So you may decide to trade down, but you're still buying a unit of one ice cream. I'm on a GOP one, I've lost 50 pounds. And what's interesting is I forget to eat, I skip entire meals. And I have to ask myself, did I even eat today? Because you don't notice it. And they and you look at the data. Walmart has a fantastic set of data, where they've compared their pharmacy, which they're one of the largest pharmacies in the United States, they've compared their pharmacy data, subscription or prescription data to consumer purchases that are also the one of the largest grocers in the United States, they have the benefit of being able to take those two data sets and compare consumption patterns based on drugs that someone's prescribed. And what they've determined is that if there's a GOP one prescription in the house is that the consumer is less likely or they consume less calories, they purchase less calories. And I think if it's a male prescribed prescription on a GOP one, they're buying 10%. The entire household is spending 10% less calories purchased, which I think is an astounding fact. When you look at the size of our economy, and in our business, the trucking business, we measured about 2 million truckloads lost just in terms of GOP ones alone. Fascinating. Now going to the industrial side of the economy, you're seeing a significant increase. Can you tell us more about that? And where is the freight going? Yeah, so it's again, I we would say that there's three sort of horsemen of the industrial economy right now. AI data center build out is one of those energy infrastructure, you could divide that between electricity, I'd probably put AI, the power generation is more of an AI story than it is anything, but you could sort of loop those together. Energy infrastructure is a little different than we're just talking about power and transmission. It's things like natural gas and oil. I mean, one of the great things about the war, whether you love it or hate it, is that the United States or the Americas and let's loop Canada, Mexico, and even Venezuela now, as the Americas broadly, it's the safest place to buy energy. Like you think about it, it's the not only non contested part of the world that has energy surplus. The Middle East, that's in a contested zone, Russia, Ukraine, contested. And so what's really nice about where we sit in the Americas, is that so far, and I hope that this stays, we don't ever have to contend with military conflict in the United States, is that our refiners are ships, they're very safe, they can come get oil and energy and energy derivatives, and ship it around the world without having obstructions or dealing with pirates like you have off of the coast of Africa, drone attacks like you have due to Iran and the conflict that's taking place there. And so we're a very safe place to source energy and industrial chemicals. And I think that's what's really driving some of this. And I think over time, we will continue to hear new manufacturing investments and plant expansions, not because of tariffs, but because of energy. And energy and power is far more important. I mean, you look at heavy duty industrial, the largest input cost is the cost of power or energy. And it's far more important than labor. And I think you can look at Germany, the mistakes that you've seen in Europe, particularly Germany, of decommissioning power plants in this sort of quest to be green, has really destroyed the industrial plant of this very mighty country. I mean, Germany is still today, but every day is less so an industrial powerhouse. And what's happening is that because they have decommissioned their energy infrastructure so severely, they've made it prohibitively expensive and substantial gaps just in terms of access for industry to produce any type of real heavy manufacturing there. And so it's moving outside of Germany and Europe broadly. And the Americas has become a very attractive place for that. So I think we're going to see more of that happening. And look, whether you love tariffs or hate them, they are an instrument that is used to drive activity. I think probably the best thing for tariffs has been the idea that you're changing trade. There's a balancing of trade. You could the administration has won some concessions, but it doesn't really impact the short-term industrial economy to the degree that perhaps some folks would want it to happen. You put a tariff and all of a sudden a big manufacturing plant shows up in your city or in the country. That just doesn't work that way. It takes years of planning, particularly how bad NIMBYism is in the United States. Even if tariffs could do this, trying to build something is a years-long process because of all the NIMBYism. Getting into your industry a little bit, we have had truckers, I host another show called California Insider, we have had truckers on the show and California truckers have been in depression based on what they've told us. It was the truck is not doing here. Is it getting better for the truckers? Much better. The great freight recession, which started in 2022, was the longest and deepest downturn in trucking history. In fact, I would argue worse than the great financial crisis. It was very confusing because it wasn't as if the economy had rolled over so deeply that it would suggest that this would be worse than the financial crisis. California is sort of ground central for this. This massive influx of immigrants into the labor force, into the driver force. There was a movement of deregulation to make it easier to become a truck driver. What was happening is the larger companies, because this is sort of part of that story, the larger companies thought they were doing themselves. As it became harder and harder to recruit American truck drivers or licensed and legal immigrants into the industry, because that was sort of you the old days, is you had the sort of prototypical truck driver 30 years ago, which tend to be, if you go back 60 years ago, these old trucking movies that were sort of old white men, then we shifted into a black and Hispanic Latino sort of second generation immigrants. Then over time we shifted into legal immigrants, became a big source of freight, of truck drivers, and then we kind of ran out of legal immigrants. And so we started as an industry bringing in illegal immigration to fill the seats, to handle all the freight. And that's where things went awry because you went from high quality immigrants who were excited to be here, who had done all the work and had all the training, had all the certifications, had the work permits. And then you said, wait a second, as an industry, and I'm not talking we as in freightways, but as an industry, the industry said, hey, we still have to have new drivers. We have this driver shortage problem and we can't find them in these pools. Let's make it so easy that anyone could join the industry. And that was really happening at the same time that the Biden administration opened the borders sort of completely open. And you got this massive surplus of illegal immigration, in addition to refugees and people who were sort of maybe legitimately allowed to be here, happening. And trucking, because it doesn't require, you know, a lot of sort of education, skilled labor. It is very easy to learn to truck, especially when you've lowered the training requirements, which also happened. And so the industry eroded its own barriers to entry because the larger motor carriers thought, hey, we want to make it easier to hire drivers. Now, the motor carriers did not realize, the ones that were pushing for this, they thought that they would all be legal immigrants that would join the workforce. And that was what their intention. They want to make it easier. What they didn't realize was that the bad actors, many of them foreign owned, some of them owned by organized crime syndicates overseas, California is sort of a ground center for this, using their sort of own ethnic communities. And some of it was human trafficking. And I'm not talking sexual human trafficking. I'm talking worker human trafficking. They would recruit people from these countries overseas and offer them a life in the United States. Pay would be better. Remember, a truck is a moving apartment. You actually don't have to find a place to live. You could drive and live in a truck. And that's exactly what happened. And that's what the administration has been trying to crack down on. And I think the industry is genuinely supportive. One last question about EV trucks. And there was just an announcement from Elon Musk, and there's been a lot of push in California to do that. But there's a new one that can go 500 miles with 30 minutes charge. Do you think that's going to get fully adopted in this space? It's such an interesting question. So our reporter was actually out at the release last week, road and track, didn't have a CDL driver. So they asked us to our reporter who or editor who does have a CDL to drive the truck. He's been a truck driver for decades. And he was very skeptical of the Tesla Semi as most truckers are. But I've heard this from him and heard it consistently. And look, I was pretty skeptical to be frank, when Musk came out with the introduced the Tesla Semi in 2017. As many things with Elon Musk, he loves to tease things well before they're in production. Sometimes he's like, hey, we're gonna have this, you know, in a year or two. And look, as a co founder, as a founder, I also get caught up in that where this is my idea, I'm gonna do it. The timeline is always a little weird. What's interesting is Tesla over the last nine years has really refined the product to where it is a very, very roadworthy product. Adam Wingfield, who we have on Freightways, the editor, said he was astounded and really impressed with how good it drove, how much better of a product it is for the driver. And so from a driver perspective, I think there's going to be a lot of enthusiasm for the product. But let's be very clear, range is your biggest problem. Eventually, the technology will catch up. But even at 500 miles, that is still a defined range for that truck, it will be good in places like California, where you have government incentives to help fund it around the ports. And the sort of local California transportation, it's the perfect application. When you talk about long haul trucking, it's, it's got, it's, we're not there yet. And so probably within the next decade, the Tesla semi and electrification, the battery technology and charging technology and infrastructure will have caught up to where the vision is, but we're still in a very, I wouldn't call it a niche, because it's actually quite large. We're still in a very specific type of trucking, which is local and sort of super local trucking within 200 miles is probably the from point A to point B, it's probably the right range. And that gives you the ability to pick up the product, deliver it and then come back to home base within a day. And that's those are the ideal applications. Now, Craig, you are very passionate about this space. And you have your publication. Tell us about the publication and how you got involved with it. And why? So I've been around the industry my whole life, my dad started what became the fifth largest trucking company, United States, my uncle started what is now the eighth largest truck company, United States, rival companies, by the way, it competed. So I'm a multi generational trucking brat. My grandfather was one of the first guys to put two drivers in a truck and drive cross country. So I've got it in my blood. I've got diesel in my blood. And I've been around it. And then in 2017, I had this idea of starting a business media business, I think inspired by the Bloomberg Terminal, of taking real time high frequency data, but also a media business and creating a business of freight, which is we call freight waves, which covers high frequency news stories and data about the industry. So we're on the front lines. We are the market category king in that high frequency world of news and information. So if you're trying to find out what's happening in the freight business, we are really the primary source for both people in the industry, but also outside the industry. Craig Fuller, it was great to have you on Marketing Insider. Please come back and update us in the near future. Have a great day. Thank you. Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you. Tell us what you think about this conversation with Craig. Do you see a lot of trucks on the road? And do you see industrial development in your communities? Make sure to tell us in the comments. And make sure to tell us where. I'm Siamak. This is Marketing Insider. We'll see you next time.