Sustainable Solutions to Increasing Girls Basketball Participation at the High School Level

Welcome to our Junior NBA Conference. Thanks to our friends at Under Armour. We are really delighted to have so many of you here with us. I am joined by some great guests today. Let's go ahead and get it started. This is, let me read the title so I don't mess it up. Sustainable Solutions for Increasing Girls' Basketball Participation in the High School Level. Something we know, hey boo, something we know that is so important to keep girls in sport. I'm gonna bring up my audience, or my audience, my panelists right now. If you want to join me on the stage, we have Lindsey, Jaden, and Viva. Hey y'all. One thing about me is I love opening up the space for people to define themselves how they want to. So I could read off their bio and make it into my boring cadence, but I'm gonna start with Viva. I'm gonna let you all introduce yourselves to the audience as you wish. Hi, I'm Viva. I'm a senior in high school and I play team handball for the United States. So some of you might know what that sport is, but it's kind of like a combination of basketball and soccer and water polo. And I'm also a published author and illustrator of my very own book, so. And we will talk about Viva's book during this panel, we sure will. Yeah, I'm Jaden Donovan, as Viva knows now, a handball fan. I play at Citadel Friends High School and I'm a senior. Played for USA Basketball a couple times and yeah, McDonald's All-American, that's cool stuff. And where are you going? Oh, and I'm going to Duke University next year, so. Let me tell you something about this. We're all about the ACC up here, okay? We're all about the ACC, okay. Hi, I feel really underqualified. I've not written a book. I'm not going to Duke. I'm Lindsay Atkinson, Director of Sports at the National Federation of State High School Associations. So many of you know that we're the organization that writes high school rules and really facilitates that conversation around the growth and development of high school sports and basketball is one of the sports I work with. Lindsay, Director is in your title. You are more than qualified, okay. Let's just get that out the way right now, okay? We're going to own that. But it's no secret the girls drop out of sport, especially after the age of 14, rapidly, in particular in basketball. And Lindsay, you're an expert in this. Can you provide us with some stats about the drop-off between girls in sport at that age? Yeah, specifically around basketball, it's been really hard to see. Over the last six years, we've lost almost 60,000 participants in high school girls' basketball. That is a lot. That is the fastest dropping sport we have had. And so it used to be the number one team sport for girls participating in high school. Now it's number three. Volleyball and soccer have now passed basketball. So it's number three. The good news is girls are still participating in sports. There's still a growth in overall girls' participation, which is number one, what we want. We want girls to play handball. And she's playing also with three sport athletes. And it's not just handball. She also plays basketball, runs track and cross country, just, you know, on the side. But those three sport athletes are obviously what we're all about from the Federation in building overall athletes. But there is a dedicated effort to how do we focus on girls' basketball? Why are they dropping out? And what can we do to help, you know, prevent that as well as some solutions as we're talking about to sustain girls' basketball? Let me just do the natural transition to Jayden, who stayed in basketball. Why, after the age of 14, did you decide I'm going to keep going with basketball? Yeah, no, I think, you know, that stat is pretty interesting to me because I think around that age of 14 years old, I think I kind of finally realized, oh, like, you know, I can go play in college for free, get a great education somewhere. So, I mean, that is a big reason why I stayed because, you know, I realized how many opportunities basketball has given me. But yeah, no, I think that it is, like, very important for us to talk about, you know, this today, especially. Just like how, you know, it is, many girls do drop out and, you know, many people have their different reasons for it. You know, it could be injuries and things like that. But, you know, the main reason for me, and I think a lot for other girls, you know, that I know of, is just the opportunity that it presents for us. And Viva, you're a three-sport athlete. Basketball, I was introduced to you through basketball. We'll talk about that in a second. But why did you decide to stay in sport? And why did you love the game of basketball growing up? Well, I think I just had fun doing it. And if you have fun doing something, you wanna keep doing it. And so, for me at first, I think it was friends. All my friends were playing basketball. But then I found a love for the game. And so I think if we can keep girls interested and find however they can have fun playing the game, I think that's the most important thing. So I just kept doing it because I had a lot of fun doing it. So I'm gonna tell you all a little history lesson about the relationship that Viva and I have. How many years ago was it? Five years ago now? She had an interest in the WNBA, right? And so what she did, she came with me to my office and was able to tour it and then met with the league. And through that, I might be messing up the story a little bit, but through that, she was able to visit every single WNBA arena. And it gave her that exposure to the next level of sports. So a lot of times when I talk to the next generation of athletes and I'm asking them, hey, who's your favorite player? They inherently go to a men's player and that troubles me. But Viva saw a league that she loved and decided to dedicate her time to studying that league and being present in those spaces. And shout out to mom who's on the front row who opened up that space for her. Clap it up. So Viva, what was your experience like touring all the arenas and why were you compelled to visit those spaces? So at the time I was 14 and the Her Time to Play initiative says that by the age of 14, girls are twice as likely as boys or twice as likely to drop out of sports than boys are. And so I was 14 and I said, how do I change that? Because I'm staying in sports. So how do I keep my friends and girls across the country involved in sports? And so I went to all 12 WNBA arenas and interviewed over 50 legends and players and presidents and COOs about how the WNBA is breaking barriers and setting a precedent that girls like us can look up to and say maybe one day I could be a WNBA player or I can stay in sports and work behind the scenes. Maybe I can be a coach or maybe I can do all kinds of things. So it was really important to me to figure out why girls were dropping out and how we can change that, how we can change the stigma. And so I found so much great evidence in how the rookies in the league at the time were the first players who were born when the WNBA was in existence. So that was really impactful that they grew up knowing that they could play in the WNBA. And so we talked about earlier, Cathy did, that it's the 27th year of the WNBA. And so now every single girl across the country can look and say, that can be me one day. She did that and I can do that too. Y'all give people a job. I mean, like yesterday. But Lindsay, when we talk about the drop-off, a lot of times I am led to believe it's the resources that they have. It's no secret that around 14 is when, or around that time is when we start our periods and we start getting a little bit self-conscious because our bodies change. What have you seen with girls at that age and how they're able to get the resources they need to handle those body changes and surround themselves by the guidance that they need in order to stay in sport in that time? No, that's a great question. We've had a lot of organizations reach out to us who are doing really amazing things. There's a group that's organizing like sports brawl drives. And so we're hosting, we have an annual meeting every year. And so we're hosting all the participants bring brand new, not gently used, like brand new sports brawls. Brand new sports brawls, what? Oh God. Sports brawls because we don't even think about that, right? Like there was no question of like our parents were gonna provide what we needed to play. But there are girls, young girls out there that don't have the resources. Their parents didn't grow up playing sports. So they don't even understand what they need or they can't afford them. And so there's groups like that that are advocating for providing resources. There's another group of young girls that I interviewed that they were doing, they were partnering, their high schools were partnering with schools that were in underprivileged communities and they were developing resources for them. They were saying bring gently used, not sports brawls, like sports equipment, shoes, things like that. And we're organizing drives to help these underprivileged schools build their sports programs and then give these girls the resources that they need because they don't have even the basketball shoes to participate. They just have one pair of shoes that they can wear. And so what I've been amazed with is the youth that get involved and are saying we need to make a difference in our community and that we're making a difference. These young people are making a difference. And so that's what I say, get involved in the community, organize things like this, realize what you have and what other people don't have and trying to make a difference so that we can increase. Because that's where we do see the drop off in our underprivileged areas. When English is a second language, those areas are just not exposed to it and they don't have the resources. So the more that we can provide those resources and help connect them, then they'll grow in those areas. Absolutely, absolutely. Jayden, who did you grow up watching? Let me think. Okay, no, no. I was a big, okay, this is not a WNBA player, but I was a big LeBron fan. I think that whenever people ask me, they're like, oh, why do you like LeBron so much? I mean, obviously he's an amazing basketball player, but as you said, the people that give back, I think that's something that you remember a lot. I think a lot of us know LeBron to be a really great athlete, but we also know him to be a really good person. I mean, no troubles with crimes or anything like that. And I mean, there's no question that he definitely feels like he needs to give back to the community that raised him and that's something that I've definitely tried to do myself and just remember that you can be more than an athlete, more than just a girls' basketball player who's really great, but also just like, I mean, a person who's willing to provide for the younger girls who wanna follow in your footsteps, but now I had the opportunity to. And LeBron was actually present at your McDonald's All-American game, right? And so we have these opportunities for high exposure and they really make you feel like a celebrity. I want you to walk me through your experience with McDonald's All-American, all the All-American games that you've been a part of in your senior year and how you felt going through them. Yeah, no, as I've told many people, I think the McDonald's All-American experience was amazing. I think that sometimes people are like, oh, I mean, the gear was nice, but you can obviously tell the boys got better gear, but all of us were treated the same. I mean, we had security for both sides, women and men. As you said, all these people came out to watch the games being played in the same arena as the guys were both on ESPN, which is pretty cool. So yeah, there's small things like that, I think us girls definitely now notice, because we've been in environments where guys have definitely gotten better gear or they got more of the attention, all the media's for them and it's kind of like, oh, it's a boys event and we know some girls are here. So it's a great opportunity and also being a part of Nike Hoop Summit this year and that being the first girls event they've had, I think it definitely just shows we're going in the right direction and that there is an effort being made to provide an opportunity for girls to play on the same platform as men. And this brings me to you, Viva. Who was your favorite athlete growing up? I'm a big Elena Deledon fan. Yeah, and so I live in Pittsburgh, so the closest W team was the Washington Mystics. And so when I would make the drive, I would always watch Elena Deledon and just like you said, she wasn't just a basketball player. Everything she did off the court, advocating for those with disabilities and things like that, I just thought she had such grace and poise. And so she wasn't just a good basketball player, but a good person as well. And so you're well versed in the WNBA space, women athletes in general. I want you to tell us about your book. That brings me to the book because those of you who don't know, I'll be her little mini spokesperson not that she needs anybody because literally she can pitch you for days, but it shows you so many different athletes within the book. I'll just open it up to a random page. Lindsey Vonn, right? And so I want Viva to tell us the significance of this book and then the little gems that might make us go, oh my God, that's so special. And she illustrated it. Like she wrote and illustrated. I just wanna make that clear. It's actually insane. Thank you. So when I was younger, my mom would read me bedtime stories. They were about famous athletes, but almost all of them were men. And so I desperately wanted to read about a female athlete that I could imagine myself being. I wanted to be able to jump and leap and do everything that the men could do, but I was a girl doing it. And so I wanted little girls to see themselves and adult athletes and say, if she did that, then I can do that too. And so like they said, I authored and illustrated it. And so it's A to Z. Every athlete has a letter. And so there's Serena Williams, Megan Rapinoe, Sue Bird, Billie Jean King, all kinds of athletes. And then what I did is I left all the faces of the athletes blank so that little girls and boys can imagine themselves as the athletes. And so it was a big project, but every time that I see a little girl holding my book, it's so, so worth it. And I picked a range of different sports and different abilities. So there's athletes who are Paralympians, who have hearing loss, all different things so that girls of all race, gender, culture, ability are able to see themselves in the book. I mean, I feel like a proud auntie over here. That's really amazing. Lindsay, basketball in particular is so important because it is slipping down. What are some tangible ways we can keep girls in sport? Jayden brought up a good point where she was talking about the equity involved in the McDonald's All-American game. And I'm so happy that you're there, but I'm a little bit older and it hasn't always been there. And I think that you probably, if you look around your high school gyms, you might see some differences as well too in terms of what nights are girls playing on, what gyms are they using to practice and to play. So there's still inequities out there. And when we look at it statistically too, only 21% of athletic directors are female. So we also look who are making the decisions when it comes to scheduling these games and scheduling practice times and scheduling gyms that you're in, majority male. And it's not that they're trying to put you in a corner, it's really like they're just not thinking about it. It's like, this is the schedule that I inherited. So we're going to keep going. And the more that we can hire number one females and athletic director positions, as well as open their eyes of many people in those positions of there's an equity issue here and don't approach it in a confrontational way of just can we adjust schedules so that girls have the same opportunities and they're playing in front of the same student body that comes on a Friday night to watch the boys so that they can see us play and we can become more of a pillar in our school system and people know that we're playing basketball on a Friday night instead of, oh yeah, the girls have a game on Saturday morning at 10 a.m. Because who wants to get up and go to that besides grandma, right? So there's some things we can do. And also, I think that we're doing from the Federation is we've been organizing women's leadership initiatives for the last three years and we have a women's leadership summit annually open to coaches, officials and administrators to try to build against these positions and empowering the next generation. What are we doing actively as I'm sitting in a position of leadership? How am I grooming then the next generation of females and giving them the opportunity to step in shoes like I have today? So there's many things that we could do of just exposure and then fighting for some equity to, again, expand opportunities for girls, specifically in basketball. Yeah, as we strategize and push exposure and equity, I want us to listen to the youth, right? So Jaden and Viva, from your eyes, why do you think your friends don't stay in sport? I would just say maybe it's not fun anymore. What are the reasons that it's not fun? Is it because you don't feel comfortable wearing the uniform? Is it because your coach makes you feel bad when you miss a basket? Is it because the practices are at 8 p.m. and you still have to study for tests? Or is it because your friends are playing other sports? What are the factors that are leading in to them not playing sports? It's not just because they don't wanna play basketball. Maybe there's drama on their team and they don't like coming to practice. So you have to really get to know your team and your players and understand why they aren't playing sports. It's okay if maybe they wanna play volleyball, but why aren't they playing basketball? What are the factors that really lead into their decision to stop playing? Yeah, no, I agree with all those points. And I think that what I've seen around, I guess in my community, of why girls stop playing basketball, I think a very big thing is how many injuries there are in women's basketball. I think that no girl wants to have three different surgeries for their knee and then continue to play the game of basketball. So it's definitely tough in that aspect because you're going into an environment where it is a men's sport, I guess you wanna say, or a lot of men play it. And then you're going to these trainers who coach men, coach football players, and they're trying to teach a girl, oh, you're gonna bench the same or we're gonna teach you just like them. So I think it's things like that. I mean, just like the health equity part, just going to an environment where you're treated like a woman, you're trained like a woman to perform like one. And I also think that just like, as you said, that there could be a lot of drama and things like that. And then also just like, I mean, I think girls even don't wanna play basketball just because how tough it could be. I mean, some girls, I guess, sometimes the environment of basketball, especially I feel like in women's world, it can get a little hostile. And I mean, it can be very competitive and girls are not the nicest creatures on the planet. So I mean, I think it's many different things that can lead to girls dropping out. But I say the main thing is probably that equity part. I love the health equity part. Lindsay, can you speak to where you see the future of health equity, whether that's physical or mental in girls' basketball? Yeah, gosh, those were great answers. I mean, specifically when it comes to health equity, you're talking about also, we need female coaches too. I think that was talked about, Cathy was talking about how low the percentage is. I wanna pause you right here. Why did you choose Duke? Yeah, because of the female coach. So, yeah. I get it, I only played for, I didn't like specifically find female coaches, but in high school, I was lucky enough to only play for female coaches. And historically, when you thought about it back before Title IX, it was all female coaches. And then at some point, money got involved, right? So men moved into the space, which is good. We like men. But at the same time, to your point, when females coach females, you know what your body is going through. And there's more empathy around the changes that we talked about before, especially at this age that we're talking about. And so the more women we can get into the positions and really just more education around female and mental health and how important it is in our physical health and training patterns. We do a great job from an elite level to college level talking about training patterns. We can do a better job with our high school, middle school and rec kind of coaches and what it means. And we were talking upstairs about the year round play and just constant play. When we talk about the fun aspect, at what point does it stop being fun because I'm either being forced by mom and dad to play or I never have a break. I'm not playing other sports because I'm told I have to specify all those things we have to think about. Like if you're good enough, I think it was the young man who was sitting up here before that's not playing AU. If you're good enough, they're gonna find you. You don't have to play your round. And those are the things we have to think about. And then reading your body and feeling confident. I don't even know what's happening. It's okay. They can project. Yeah, feeling confident enough that I can talk about, I need to take a break. Empowering young women to speak up for themselves and how they feel to their parents as well is important. And Viva, you were mentioning the turbulence as you could feel in the locker room. And we have a sea of coaches out here. What do you want, as a teenage girl, what do you want from a coach? What qualities do you look for? Well, I want a coach that's understanding, but also hard on me and challenges me. So I want them to understand maybe when I'm having a bad day or when there's a conflict within the team and they need to meet us at our level. It doesn't always have to be, oh, we have to run two hours of fast breaks today. Sometimes maybe we need 30 minutes to talk it out as a team. So a coach who's understanding and willing to go the extra mile and meet you as a human before a player. But I also wanna be challenged. It's not, at the high school level, for me at least, it wasn't just all fun and games. I wanted to be competitive and I wanted to compete on a daily basis. So someone who's a really good balance of both, who can understand every situation, every player is unique, and really challenge each player individually, but also understand that some days there's gonna be bad days and we're gonna have losses and you can't be mean and rude about it because tomorrow we have to go to school. And so there always has to be a balance because there's so many different factors away from the court that can play into how you're feeling and how your performance on the court. And so if a coach can really understand that, then that's what I look for in a coach. Yeah, yeah. Y'all process that? Y'all took that? Okay. And Jaden, you played for Sidwell Friends and that's a winning atmosphere in USA Basketball, a winning atmosphere. What is the significance of culture within those winning atmospheres and what traits do you see within those teams that are unique that you're like, this is what contributed to why we were so successful? Yeah, so the two, well, every time I played for USA Basketball, I've had the same coach, Coach Sue Phillips. And then also Tamika Dudley, who's the head coach at Sidwell. I think those coaches are very similar. They're very intense, but as you said, like they have a great balance. Like I think that they know how to treat you, you know, like you're a young girl who's like just going through life being a teenager, but they also know how to treat you like, you know, like a great athlete, very competitive. So I think that the balance that they have is something that definitely played a great part in my Sidwell success and also USA Basketball. Like, I mean, we set records on USA Basketball scale and, you know, like, it wasn't like, she was like, okay, we're going to go out tonight and like, you know, get 80 rebounds in the game. But I mean, like we did it and she was like, okay, well, that's just like, you know, the preparation that we do in practice. And, you know, like just the relationship that we build off the court also, because like, you know, knowing that you're going to a coach who's just like, you know, you could talk to by anything in their office at any day. So, I mean, that's something that I think definitely that I would say is the comparison between the two coaches in the environment for sure. And Lindsey, you stayed close to basketball despite not, you know, you're not in the WNBA right now. No, no. No, not right now. But- I can't take the ear off. It's okay, you know, rest, self care. But you stayed close to the sport. And I know that there are girls who are out there playing basketball that love it. They just aren't going to play on the pro level. So as coaches or as adults, knowing what we know now, what advice can we give to them to stay close to sports so that they don't have to drop out because they don't see a future on the court? Because of all the other sessions we've had today, we didn't even talk about X and Os at all, right? It was nothing about how to win games. It's all about those other skills that we learned through sports. I played division three basketball on a team that was also extremely successful, went to the final four. But I knew I wasn't going to play past then. And that wasn't the point. The point was I got to continue to play, continue to build those skills and get a really good education. And all those things, that's what they're going to fall back on. I mean, might make it professionally, but at the same time, you're not going to get injured. But if something would happen, you fall back on the education, right? You fall back on all those skills that she learned along the way. She's going to go to France and live. And all those skills that she's been able to build through athletics, through the confidence that her mom has instilled in her, all those things, she's going to be able to go abroad and be a successful young woman because of these skills that we build. And 50 years ago, our mothers and grandmothers, well, maybe three generations for you, my mom didn't have that opportunity. And so we owe it to them, to me in a lot of ways, when you talk about the Billie Jean Kings in your book, to really live up to those standards of building the next generation and really living out to those fulfillment of all those character traits we've built along the way with the opportunities that we've gotten. What's the responsibility of coaches to push more than the D1 level? Because I love that you played D3 basketball and D2 is somehow always overlooked. And so how can we push them to know that that exists out there? That's a great question. And I had a great coach who gave us all kinds of opportunities and I could have gone low D1 if I wanted to, but I knew that I wasn't going to make it to the WNBA. And so I looked at the school that had the major I wanted, the education I wanted, and I had a great coach who said, you need to pick a school that if basketball went away, you would stay there and love it. And that was the advice I got. And to this day, there were days I wanted to quit because I'm like, no one's paying me to do this. I don't have to go to basketball practice every day and do all this. But it kept me in there because of my teammates, all that stuff you develop in high school, it just continues and gets better in college. But those opportunities, you need to talk to your athletes about all the different levels of play that are out there because D1 doesn't fit everyone and that's fine. But just help them find those opportunities that are out there because, I mean, when we talk about this decrease in participation, it's affecting D3 the most because those are the girls that are finding other opportunities and they're thinking, why do I wanna put in the time to play a sport when I'm not getting paid to do it in a sense? No one's paying for my education. Those are the programs that are gonna suffer in the long run. We're always gonna have Dukes and our Ucons, those aren't gonna hurt and suffer with the decrease in girls' participation. It's gonna be our lower level. So the more eyes you can get on those, and it was nice at the Final Four this year for that they had D1, D2. I loved it, it was all in one place. It was great. A D3. Very convenient. And just gave exposure to those that were in town could just go and watch. No cost, go in and watch D3 and D2, and I think that's amazing. I hope they continue to do that. I want to open up the floor for any questions for anybody. I don't know how much time we have, but I love opening up the space. Go ahead, Ally. So, I have a question in the name of work for BC and UCLA and England and other countries starting to move away from white uniforms in soccer. I think that's because you talked about theory and all that. Is that something you guys are considering on a high school level to make girls more comfortable with developing their periods than trying to shift away from all white uniforms or white shorts uniforms? It's an interesting question. I've had more questions this year than anything on rules related to shorts. We don't require white bottoms. I think that's just a misconception because you buy them in a package and they need to be, they're white and they're red or whatever your away jersey is. Your bottoms, your uniform bottoms can be whatever color. They don't have to be white. And that was also in soccer too. I think there's just a learning curve with that and creating learning opportunities. So that's actually one of our points of emphasis this year is gonna be on uniforms and to clarify that uniform bottoms can be multiple colors. I mean, on the same team, they need to be the same color. You don't have to have white bottoms. Thank you. What would you tell the higher standards, everybody else on the court, all of you, through your process of being an athlete, what was the most challenging, if you want to reveal a situation that you had to overcome in order to get to the next one? Those of you who didn't hear, it was what's the most challenging obstacle you've had to face to get to the next level? Well, I would say I actually decided not to play high school basketball this year because my coach wasn't willing to let me have just one day to practice handball. And so I love basketball and it was just so difficult for me to decide, do I wanna stay in the now and play basketball or should I look towards my future and continue playing handball? And so it was a really tough decision, but it was just, it came out to be, if she's not willing to work with me to do this one thing, is it really an environment that I wanna put six days in a week into that environment? And the team dynamics just weren't good. And so that was really challenging for me because I love basketball and I wanna stay in basketball, but I just had to make the tough decision because it just wasn't a good environment. Yeah, mine was probably having a little bit of confidence, a little bit more confidence, I guess. I think when I grew up, I was very shy. My mom could tell you, I did not like ordering my own food at McDonald's. That was not my thing. So my little sister would do it for me. That's how bad it was. But I think that just having a little bit more confidence in myself and my game and just me as a person is something that I think I definitely developed over time. Like a couple of years ago, I would've never wanted to do this, be on a panel talking about stuff like this. But I think confidence is what got me to where I am today. I think having a little bit more confidence in my game is able to help me boost in the rankings, talk to more people and just make connections. But yeah, something that was a hard lesson to learn, like, girl, you can't just, your sister can't order McDonald's for you forever. So like, yeah, I'd probably say that was the biggest thing for me. Do I have to answer that? I can't even remember athletically what it would've been. But I guess professionally, I have a professional one in terms of, yeah. This current job that I hold, I had interviewed for it and got turned down. And I came back and was able to get the position. At that time, I just got one sport, I got tennis. And tennis, we didn't write rules for. And so then they added volleyball. I did well with that. I got girls lacrosse. And then my dream was to add basketball and I've now added basketball. So to me, it was- Clap it up. Yeah. Just that perseverance of like, didn't get it the first time, the girl that got another female got a position over me. And I was like, but you know what? She's one of my best friends in the office. You know, I cheer for her every day because she deserved it. But then the opportunity, just being prepared, being ready for the next opportunity, and then doing your job well, just opens you up for the next thing. I can speak to that as the editor of the NFHS rules book. If we would not have rules, I wouldn't have a job. So please let us keep writing rules for the sports. So the National Federation is made of the 51 state high school associations. New York is the only one that doesn't follow our rules and follows NCAA rules. There are others that maybe don't follow one rule, particularly the shot clock. And that's why we have now opened it up to allow for state association adoption of the shot clock. Next year, that will be up to about 20 states who are using the shot clock to some capacity. Do I think that a unified set of rules would make the game better? Maybe for the elite, but what are we talking percentage-wise, that is? Our rules are written for age and stage, right? So we're talking about the high school athlete. And even in your states, you've seen the lowest of the low to the highest of the high. And yes, those highest teams could probably play NCAA rules and that's what they're written for. We have to think about all those levels of play and that's what we do. And we have the NCAA at our rules meeting I go to their, actually I'm missing it because it's today, but I sent them a PowerPoint. I'm sure they're showing it now, but we're in constant communication about the rules and sometimes we align them because they make sense. And sometimes we vary because of the level of play. I actually have a question for you. I don't know if necessarily you can do it because you go to a basketball school, but this is open up for everybody. How do you balance those who want to play at the higher level in the atmosphere with those who don't? Yeah, I think that really led to separation within our team because maybe we had five or six really serious girls who we'd been playing together for how many years, but then you have the girls who aren't serious and maybe just started playing basketball in eighth grade. And so that really led to division. The JV team would go and practice on the other end of the court. And we only had 12 girls in the gym. And so I think somehow you have to figure out a balance of yeah, let the competitive ones compete, but you also have to bring in the whole team because it is a team and they all have to get along for the JV girls to continue playing sports because at some point they're gonna be your varsity players. Yeah, I also agree with those points. And I think that like Sidwell, we were the number one team in the country last year. And I think that was the part where, like I definitely saw a division, I guess, between the girls who wanted to go to college for basketball and then the girls who just wanted to go to college. And I think that was something that really bothered me because I really did not, I mean, it was bad. They would be rebounding for us before games and not taking a shot at all. I'm like, okay, they think they're gonna sit on the bench the whole time. And I mean, if they did, I mean, okay. But you don't want them to feel like that. No girls should wanna be on the team and be like, okay, I'm ready to go be someone's ball girl. So that's something that I definitely talked about a month through my team. And this year I was like, guys, that can't be the same thing that happened last year. You want everyone to feel involved. You want everyone to feel like they're a part of the team no matter if they're going to play in college professionally or whatever. Everyone is there because they like to play basketball. They love to play it. So they should be treated as such. And then furthering that, when you do come up with the rules, the shot clock or not, or whatever that may be, how do y'all balance it so that the rules are conducive for the elite versus the regular player? Yeah, we write rules for varsity high school play, but think about that range, like even that varsity high school play. And we write a joint boys-girls rule book. So boys and girls play by the same rules at the high school level. So there is a lot of discussion at the rules meeting in terms of, is this best for the game? Is this best for the high school athletes? The officials as well, we talk a lot about can the officials adjudicate this? We also are thinking about the level of officials that we have versus the level of officials NCAA has. That's different too. So we are thinking about the rules for that. And it is, I mean, you are thinking about that. And we do have proposals all the time that come in that are exactly what the NCAA, either women's or men's rule is. And we talk about, would this help the officials and can our athletes play to this? If it does, then we'll move towards that. If it is hard for officials and it's probably above the level of our student athletes, then the committee typically does it. But I mean, there's some real proposals that you might like out there for some changes that might align. I'm just gonna say that. Can't say anything else. It's not official. So I have a question that many of you are already out there and why you weren't. Right, right. But my question is, how does it, or what does it look like to try to dive a bit deeper into the sports participation pipeline and what we need to do to actually first start to make our effectiveness equal? Because I think that that's sometimes one of those, almost sometimes unnoticed, we just started playing all of a sudden you couldn't take your meds. But a lot of people I feel like may not have that experience. I'm just curious to know that from all three since you're all three athletes. Well, I can speak to the younger pipeline. The SFIA does an annual survey of sports participation and we just had our meeting with them. The health of basketball from a youth perspective, even kind of through their rec play up through middle school is extremely healthy. Through the pandemic, it became the number one sport played. And then we can look at the NCAA and the WNBA and how much success they're receiving. We are hoping, fingers crossed, that that is translated through the high school space because we are seeing a growth in the youth space of girls' participation in the sport. So I think that we have a healthy future just based on the numbers from a youth perspective. Yeah, no, and I started playing for my PeeWee team, I don't know, I was like 10, nine-ish, that age. Yeah, and I played for fun. I think it was just a super fun sport to play. I was pretty tall, so all I had to do was shoot layups and beat up on some guys, so that was really fun. But yeah, no, I think that, as you said, many people would just learn, oh, you just started playing basketball and you came pretty good. I was not that really good at all and I did not know anything about playing in college or professionally. So yeah, I think that it's definitely important to have exposure on the fact that there is just some kids who just wanna play basketball at a young age. That might not be the sport they end up playing in a couple years, but it's just a fun game to be played. Yeah, I started playing basketball in third grade and I just loved the sport and I loved all sports, but I started playing handball in eighth grade, so a lot later, and so I think there's something to be said about not specializing in one sport too young because in high school, there's different seasons, so you can play different sports. And so I think you just have to expose children to all different types of sports because you never know where they'll find their sport or when they'll find it. You have to keep exposing them. They don't have to know what sport they wanna play when they're seven years old. It can keep evolving. Yeah, no, I can talk a little bit on that because my team this year, as I said the year before, we were the number one team in the country, then went to a tournament in Arizona this past year and we lost, lost our number one ranking. We were super down about it and that obviously sucked, but we also felt like, okay, all of us are riding on this number one, this number right in front of our Sidwell name, but it has way more than that and I think that a lot of us girls, we took that very hard and we were kind of down in practices for a while and you could just tell that everyone was just beat up about it and then eventually our coaches, they were like, okay, guys, you guys haven't smiled in a couple of weeks, what's going on? You guys are still a top five team. You guys are still great basketball players. So I think for them to take the time out of their day, we skipped a practice and my coach is very big on her practice times. You gotta be there early, you gotta be there on time. So for her to take the time out of our week to just sit down as a team and be like, okay, guys, what's going on? We have to realize that this is, we don't, like I told them in the meeting, I remember being like, guys, we don't play basketball. Like we didn't play, we didn't come into this season being like, okay, I'm gonna be the number one team in the country the whole entire season. Like that's not how we started. I mean, Sidwell was not really a basketball team before these last couple of years. We started with nothing and we just have to remember that we started playing because we just wanted to play basketball. We wanted to build an opportunity for the girls around us, the girls that we are in the locker room with every day, you know, that, you know, it's way more than just a ranking. So that was just like an example that I had of like, you know, when I think our mental health was a little down, but I think, you know, for coaches to really show that they do care and, you know, are willing to take the time out of their weeks, out of the busy schedules that we have to, you know, provide an opportunity for you to share is pretty special. Yeah, and I would say my freshman year of high school, we had a coach who had been a long time trainer of a lot of the girls on the team and everybody loved him as a trainer. But then when he became our coach, a girl would cry every week during practice, you know? So I think there's a balance between being a really good person and being a really good coach and you have to find that balance. You know, you can be hard on the court, but you also have to be accepting and knowing that we're teenage girls, you know, and sometimes we don't have the same aspirations that you might have as a coach. So just being a person and being a coach and having that balance. That's really great perspective about the difference of us as adults looking at y'all like, these are our goals that we're projecting on you. But as far as mental health, Jaden and Viva and Lindsey, how do you all deal with the, you know, the setbacks? How do y'all deal with the days that aren't so good? How do you pick yourself out of the rut after you get knocked down? Yeah, no, a big thing for me is my support system, just, you know, be able to talk to people around me, like my parents or, you know, some friends that I might have, some teammates that I'm close with, or even some coaches. Like I was saying, you know, like I think that bond is special between like a coach and a player, to be able to go to your coach and be like, okay, coach, like today's practice sucked. I sucked in this game. I felt like I sucked in this game. You know, like I just need like a pick me up. So that's something I've always relied on. Like, you know, I'm not really like a music type of person or, you know, those people who say that, like, no, but I'm more of just like, I wanna talk to people. I don't like, you know, to be alone when I feel down. So, you know, just to like, know that you have people that you can trust and that you know you can really lean on when you're down. Yeah, I'd say the same thing, just surrounding yourself with your group of people, you know, people who will pick you up when you're down, but also celebrate your greatest victories. They said it. I mean, I completely agree. It's the people around you and the people you surround yourself with and having that good support system is who I've always relied on when, you know, things are going, it's the anxiety and everything in your mind. If I can have people in my life, whether it be professionally or my family that you can talk to, it just always helps. So that's how I've always balanced as well. And I think it's important to understand that your coach has bad days too. And so if you, you know, you and your teammates have shared experiences, so talk to your teammates too. Have like, coach was tripping today, you know, like have them encourage you too. Cause coaches have bad days as well. I saw a question, yeah. If you could ask the NBA team for one thing that you think could help grow girls' participation, what would that be? Got ears here. It's a great question. I'm gonna think about it for a little second. I can speak from an organizational standpoint. We have done, and this is where my frustration comes in because we have partnered with the NFL and the NFL has given us a lot of money to grow the game of football. When all the concussion stuff was happening, all the news around concussions, decreasing participation, they've invested into one staff member who's dedicated to the NFHS and the high school, growing high school football. What are the, why are people dropping out of football? How can we, you know, I would love it if we could do something similar in terms of a partnership with the NBA, with the WNBA, whatever, in terms of maybe it's studies related to it. Why are people dropping out? And then some focused, specific solutions. Because all this is anecdotal right now. We think that girls choose volleyball because it's less contact. We don't know. And until we actually ask young people and do some studies, there's not a lot we can do with just what we think is happening. So that's what I would say. Yeah, and I would just say exposure. So as, you know, everybody knows about the NBA, but does everybody know about the WNBA? And so how can we get little girls and little boys to have WNBA players as role models? And they don't have to just be the players. It can be the coaches and those who are working behind the scenes, the referees, you know. How many female faces can we see at NBA games? Yeah, I'm still a little stumped on your question. But no, one thing that I think is something that's really big that I think a lot of us are talking about now is like mental health. And I think that, I don't know, I don't know how much, you know, the NBA or WNBA advocates for mental health. But I think that, you know, just like showing that, you know, you do care, you know, providing money for like organizations like this, I think is something that could truly be impactful. But like, I mean, I think, you know, there is a lot of exposure that's being put onto the game of basketball now. So, I mean, I'm very grateful for, you know, anything that's happening right now. I'm going to add to it because I have thoughts, many of them. For the guys in particular, I would say watch your language when it comes to women's and girls' basketball, girls being under 18, women being over 18. So it's really interesting to me when we talk about the men's game and the men say the men, but then when they refer to the women's game, they say girls, it's coded, right? So intentionality behind how you reference the game is a big thing. How you consume the game is another. Kelsey Plum said it best. I don't want you to do it because you're doing us a favor. I want you to do it because you love the product, right? So it's not like a, let's help the WNBA. It's let's consume it, let's watch it. Let's, you know, really enjoy the game of basketball. The game is the game, right? Even though the distinction is important. And also attend the games, make it cool. We saw the rise of it. Even with the orange hoodie movement, you saw it was just a cool hoodie. It was a cool hoodie that people wore and it gained traction. It didn't have to inherently be, this is women, go women. It was, this is the logo on the hoodie and I'm casually wearing it around and just intentionality behind that. I think Grant Williams does a great job of promoting the game because he genuinely loves the game. He knows the game. He knows the players in the game. He's at games. And so that's a good model. Follow Grant Williams way of engaging with the WNBA and really be intentional about language. And if there are any PR out there, yearly I ask the men who their favorite WNBA players are in some form of question. And I can always tell who pays attention to the game and who doesn't. And so that trickles down to the next generation. If they see, you know, I don't know. Give me a men's player help. Who are men? Who? LeBron. So LeBron intentionally seeks out women journalists to answer their questions. He's very intentional about that. But like even the difference between, and this is not to throw anybody under the bus, but like Giannis' quick Asia Wilson answer versus even though Kyrie gave me a little pushback, he gave me a very well thought out answer about who his starting five would be. And so you can tell who watches the women's game versus who doesn't. And people can pick that up. Anyway, I am out of time, but this is a sustainable solution. So one last gem to drop on how we can keep the retention going for girls in basketball in particular. One little soundbite from each of y'all. I think just stay engaged. Stay engaged that this is an issue and the more we can do as a community and the more we can talk to our high schools about equity and things like that, the more change we're gonna make. Yeah, no, and I say that confidence is a big thing to have like putting confidence in the girls that are playing basketball, make them believe that, you know, there is something beyond just playing in their middle school, high school years that, you know, they can play in college and professionally. I just say make it fun. Make it fun to practice, make it fun to play and make it fun to talk about. That was it. Period. I like that. Drops mic. Thank you all.