Exploitative e-commerce to be a thing of the past, EU justice chief vows

Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. You've described the Digital Fairness Act as a major overhaul of European consumer protection. What would be deemed illegal as part of this proposal starting from today? Well, first of all, it is a significant reform of EU consumer law because it reflects the digitalisation of our economy that we have experienced over the last number of years. And it's the first major update in about 20 years. And when you consider everything that has happened in our economy over that period of time, then I think you begin to understand the need for this update to our legislation. And fundamentally, this is about ensuring that we address gaps in consumer protection law in the online environment. And so when you talk about banning certain things, for example, so-called dark patterns is one area that we are focused on. An example of that would be where you have false scarcity claims, where you are online shopping and you're told there's three of these left. And in fact, there may not be. And other pressure selling techniques and manipulative design techniques that are in effect intending to trick you and to get you to spend more money than you ever intended to spend. So the use of things like double negatives online and pressure techniques whereby, you know, are you sure you want to make the wrong decision? Issues like that are being fully addressed under the dark pattern setting. But of course, there's so much more in this proposal. We're also giving people the option of switching off addictive design. features in digital services, so things like autoplay, infinite scroll, and so on. But fundamentally, it's about tackling unfair commercial practices in the online environment. So when we talk about subscription traps that we've all experienced as consumers, when we speak about dynamic pricing and we're on a virtual queue to buy. A ticket for our favourite performer and we don't know what we're going to end up paying when we speak about hidden costs that only become transparent at the very end of the process when you go into the digital checkout. All of these issues are being addressed and some of the harmful elements of video games, particularly in the context of minors, gambling-like features that we believe should not be permitted for children. So it's a very Broadly based piece of legislation, it is converting the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive into a regulation and that then enables the European Commission to directly enforce certain large-scale cross-border breaches. Yeah, it sounds like quite a meaty proposal, but it's my understanding that there are 10 manipulative practices that have been identified specifically. Why these 10 and why only stop at 10? Well, all of this is based on extensive consultation and evidence gathering that we have been engaged in for the past number of years. Over two years ago, we published the Digital Fairness Fitness Check, where we did a stock take of our laws for consumers in a digital environment, and we found many gaps. And we also took on board the feedback from the National Consumer Protection Authorities, who are the people actually implementing and enforcing law at the moment on behalf of consumers. And they said to us that across so many areas, whether it be in dark patterns and addictive design, they felt that the law was not sufficiently clear and that there was a need for an update, in effect, an update patch to be applied to consumer protection rules for the digital environment. That's exactly what we are doing. And so we have used all of that evidence that we have gathered, which, by the way, points to huge costs annually on consumers of over 10 billion euro per annum at the moment. And we've put together what we believe is a balanced, a proportionate, but also quite a comprehensive. piece of legislation that tries to be fair to consumers, but also fair to businesses so that they know exactly what the rulebook is and that they can benefit from one set of rules on these issues across the European Union, because of course the regulation will have a direct effect across the 27 member states and you won't have 27 different variations of how it is transposed into national law. But you mentioned businesses, are you expecting a fight or pushback from e-commerce platforms or influencers in the European Union? How are you going to step up to the plate if they come with a fight? Well, we should acknowledge we see a lot of good practice online as well, but we also see examples where the interests of consumers are not being protected. And I I passionately believe that... Innovation and good consumer protection can travel hand in hand. In fact, I think they are complementary and mutually reinforcing. If consumers have trust in the digital environment and they have trust in the companies that they are doing business with, I think they may well actually spend more and they'll certainly have more confidence to invest their hard-earned money in purchasing that good or that service from a particular platform. Of course, we have to have a backstop and we have to have enforcement provisions. And those are set out in the package that we unveiled at the European Commission. And what do they look like? What does the enforcement look like? So, first of all, the enforcement will still primarily be done at a national level. And in the case of cross-border breaches of consumer law, we will continue to coordinate as a European Commission the actions of many different national authorities. But then for the more systemic, large-scale breaches, the Commission will have the power now for the first time to directly investigate and enforce consumer law. And in extremis, in the worst-case scenario, we have the potential to impose fines of up to 6% of worldwide turnover of companies found guilty of these major breaches of consumer law. That's quite significant. Moving on to another topic that you cover as the Justice Commissioner. We've seen a widening constitutional crisis occupy Poland with scenes over the last few weeks showing the President Karol Nawrocki trying to enter the Constitutional Tribunal. He has effectively blocked... Four judges who have been recently appointed from taking up their new positions. What do you make of this firestorm that seems to engulf Warsaw at the moment? Well, the most important thing is that the rule of law is upheld in Poland and it falls to the Polish authorities in the first instance to ensure that that is the case and also to ensure that when it comes to the appointment of judges, for example, that it is done in a manner consistent with the Polish Constitutional Tribunal and indeed the judgments of the Court of Justice of the European Union. And I take note of the fact that we had a Venice Commission opinion on these issues as recently as October. And there is also a relevant judgment with interim measures from the European Court of Human Rights earlier this year. And in essence, it is for the Parliament, it is for the SEM in the case of Poland, in line with their own. constitution and in line with the provisions of the Court of Justice findings to appoint judges to serve at the highest level in the judiciary in Poland and it's a matter for the national authorities to make sure that they act fully in accordance with their own constitutional provisions and in accordance with the judgments of the Court of Justice and we continue to monitor the situation closely but it's crucial that the rule of law is upheld. Have you had any correspondence with the Polish President Karol Nawrocki regarding the scenes that we witnessed over the last few weeks and this exact instance of what you're talking about, the rulings from the Venice Commission and other bodies. And not directly, but my services remain. Very vigilant and are monitoring the ongoing situation in Poland. And from our point of view, we want to have a functioning judiciary in every member state of the European Union. As you know, we have an annual rule of law report process. We would have reported on Poland, as we did for every other member state, as recently as July, where we take stock of a range of issues, including the independence of the justice system, whether there are adequate anti-corruption mechanisms in place, ...free and independent media in a country and indeed other... Democratic checks and balances that need to be placed in place also. In addition, we have a justice scorecard that we produce annually where we look and we actually measure the performance of aspects of the justice system in every country. So from my point of view, as the commissioner responsible for justice and rule of law, what is imperative here is that the rule of law is upheld in Poland and the position vindicated whereby it is the parliament, the SEM, that can take an important step. in the appointment of the judges and that decision of the Parliament should be respected by all parties and indeed should be implemented in line with the opinion of the Venice Commission and in line with the interim measures of the European Court of Human Rights. But one measure that the Commission could take is Article 7 proceedings, also known as the nuclear option. This was previously levelled at Poland, but Article 7 was withdrawn after the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk, a pro-EU politician, took office. Was withdrawing Article 7 against Poland premature because it was withdrawn after he promised to solve the constitutional crisis that continues to grip Poland? We acknowledge the efforts that have been made to fully restore rule of law in Poland and we have been working very closely with the government to ensure that progress is made on the path to full restoration of rule of law and in terms of the necessary justice reforms in that particular member state. The question of Article 7 is an entirely different matter. The closure of the procedure was following an assessment of the state of play and was based on the full commitment of the government to continue best efforts on the reform path and to uphold the rule of law in Poland and we support efforts to uphold the rule of law. But Karol Nawrotzki, him effectively not blocking these judges because it's not really up to him to block a constitutional court judge from taking up their position, that is the position of the Sejm, as you rightly pointed out. Does this not meet the threshold for potentially restarting talks for what Article 7 could look like for Poland if it continued down this track? Well we continue to monitor the situation and no decision has been considered or taken by the European Commission to advance on that path. We are available to engage with the Polish authorities all the way through and I reiterate from my point of view and from the Commission's perspective the most important thing here is that the rule of law And that the justice system functions, that the long-established method of the appointment of judges in line with Poland's constitution and in line with the judgments of the Court of Justice is respected, and that the judges who are properly put forward by the Parliament, by the Sejm, should be allowed to take office and to perform their duties and to serve the citizens of the country. Polls will head to the polls. Next year, in November, is the European Commission concerned whether a law and justice government could take power again and derode or erode all of the good work that Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk and his pro-EU government has done? Is there any concern from the Commission regarding what could happen in the future? The European Commission does not get... get involved in national politics or express any opinion whatsoever on the decisions that the electorates around Europe face at any moment in time, and there are many elections in the European Union that take place all the time. But what we can say is that for every country, the rule of law is not an optional extra. It is a foundational value of the European Union. It is provided for in Article 2 of our treaty, alongside democracy, equality, freedom and respect for human rights and human dignity. These are legally binding provisions, so they're not an a la carte menu that we can choose from. It's a core binding obligation of being a member of the European Union. It applies to every member state of the EU. and indeed to those that aspire to join the European Union and these are part of the ongoing discussions that we have as part of the enlargement process indeed with the candidate countries so we don't get involved in the national politics or the conduct of elections entirely a matter for the national authorities and who people vote for is indeed their sovereign right that we fully defend and will protect in every way we can but there are rules and values that are inherent in EU membership And there must be respect by everybody. Thank you so much, Commissioner.