From NJ to Jaipur to Boston: Laura Weinstein's Journey Into the World of Indian Art at MFA Boston

Traditionally museums have been places where we really value works of art that were made in the past that are unique and original and very tangible but AI is raising all kinds of questions about what makes something real, what makes something unique and how do we value things that can be infinitely replicated. So the art world, museum professionals like myself, even artists are going to have to reckon with these tough questions as we move into the future. My journey into South Asian art started in college when I went to Jaipur for a semester and lived with a Muslim family. That was back in 2000, so now it's been about 26 years. I went on to do a PhD at Columbia where I spent a lot of time in the Hyderabad area studying paintings from the Deccan and since then I've continued to study and learn and I love that exploring South Asian art is a project that has no end. The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston has the oldest collection of South Asian art in the United States and it is a rich and complex and wonderful collection. Welcome to Indian Indian News. Our guest today is Laura Weinstein. She is Curator of South Asian, Indian, Islamic and Southeast Asian Art at Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. We are going to honor her on November fourteenth at Newland Choice Awards Gala for her contribution. to Indian and South Asian art. Laura, welcome to our studio. Thank you very much. We are very excited to honor you on November 14th at the Gala. This is the 10th anniversary as well, so it's a very special occasion. And we are very excited to have someone from the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. It's a great honor for me and for the museum to be recognized this way. Excellent. And what a wonderful collection you have at the museum. So, let's start. First, how did you get interested in art? And then, especially in the Asian and Southeast Asian art? Well, I grew up in New Jersey, about 45 minutes from New York City. So, I grew up in a family where our special occasions were taking the train into New York City and going to museums. That was what we did. So, I think maybe that's how I grew up and developed a love of art. And then when I went to college, I went to Wesleyan University in Connecticut. And I discovered art history there. I just loved it as a way to study history and culture through something tangible, an object that you could see and hold maybe and understand the history of who made it and how and why. And that, to me, opened up a great window to understanding the past. Now, talking about Wesleyan University, that is the first university in the United States to have a program on Indian music. Exactly, that was part of it, actually. So, okay, just about New Jersey again first. So growing up in New Jersey, I was right on the border of Edison, which probably you know. Sure. So Edison has this amazing big South Asian diaspora. Sure. So I was already exposed. Growing up there to, you know, food and fashion and music from India. And then when I went to Wesley in my very first fall as a freshman, I went to the Navratri festival. Okay, sure. And, you know, and it just was so exciting to watch these performers and to see how big the community was that was, you know, enjoying the music. So then I went abroad in my junior year to Jaipur through Wesley and they had this program that you could go and spend a semester in India and so you know it was a kind of a snowball effect from kind of growing up in New Jersey and then the music at Wesleyan and then the experience of living in Jaipur I just got hooked. So now when you came back you joined Columbia University. That's right. When I came back, eventually I finished my degree, you know, a bachelor's and went off and did a master's and a Ph.D. in South Asian and Islamic art. So why did you pick Islamic and South Asian? Of course you were interested there, but was there any particular angle or particular thing which really impressed you about Islamic and South Asian art? It's a great question and I don't have a single answer to it because you know like life is complicated and you look back and you wonder why are you doing what you're doing and how did you get there? I am ready to listen to the multiple answers, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Well, so part of it is that when I went to India for the first time in 2000 as a junior in college, I did a homestay and I lived with a Muslim family and I went to a wedding with them. And I really got to see the city and the culture of Jaipur through their eyes. And so immediately because of them, I started trying to understand what it meant to be Muslim in India today and how Islamic cultures that were part of this broader Islamic tradition interfaced with the local, with things that were Indic. I think to be honest. That negotiation between being Muslim and part of Islamic culture but being Indian really resonated with me because, like many people, You know, I'm not from America originally. My family are immigrants from Eastern Europe. Mm-hmm. And my family is Jewish. And we are also, like so many people in America, trying to always figure out how do we integrate our own family history and culture with the culture of the place that we're living in. And that process is something that is endlessly fascinating to me. So there's always a reason. Because I was curious about your interest in the Islamic art. Now you can fully understand that how one little incident can change your whole trajectory of life. Yeah. And then you ended up devoting your entire career and life for this art. Yeah. So then I thought to myself, okay, why don't I study for my PhD? Why don't I study some form of Islamic art that has deep roots in India? And so I ended up looking at the Deccan. Where around Hyderabad, Golconda, in the 16th, 17th century, they were making Persian, they were making illustrated manuscripts of Persian poetry, but illustrating them in a local style with local artists. So the people who are working on these objects had to figure out how to combine and how to integrate Persian literature, Persian manuscripts, Persian painting with the local artists and local readers and admirers and bring it all together. Ended up being something that I found really fascinating and sustained me through that whole long process of getting the Ph.D. So now, when did you finish your Ph.D.? Finished in 2011. 2011. And did you publish that dissertation or was it published or not? I ended up publishing a number of articles based on different chapters of the dissertation, but I didn't do it all as one. But I took the pieces that I thought were the most interesting. So let's talk about, maybe you can talk about one piece which really fascinated you. Yeah, one of the manuscripts that I wrote about was made for the ruler of the Kutub Shahi Sultanate in Golconda in the late 16th century. And it was a collection of poems written by the Sultan and he wrote them in an early form of Urdu. So Urdu was a new language for poetry at that time, you know, it was kind of still emerging, and so he was one of the first great poets, and his poetry itself combined kind of Indic and Persian themes and subjects, and so the artists who illustrated this collection of poems and painted these beautiful paintings had to figure out how to adapt This long tradition of illustrated manuscripts of poetry from Iran to this new literary language. And one of the things that was incredible is that they made collage paintings. So the paintings in this manuscript, which is now in the Salar Jung Museum in Hyderabad. have tiny little pieces of marbled paper collaged right into the paintings and the collage itself is so fascinating it's very unusual you never see that in Iran this is something that the artists there in Golconda decided to do and it seems like it was a way of bringing this local tradition into the paintings because marbled paper which you know sometimes we think of as connect with the Ottomans it was popular in Renaissance Italy but one of the earliest centers for the making of this beautiful kind of swirling colored papers was actually the Deccan. So when you were looking at these paintings uh it seemed that you also have to understand the history and the period to understand right am I right on that? Yeah that's why I love art history because you're looking at a book A book made in 1590 or whatever it is, but to really understand what it meant, you have to know all of the who, what, where, when, why, the culture, the religion, the history. In a way, all of us are an artist, right? Somebody paints, somebody dances, somebody sings, somebody does sketches, a lot of things. So in a way, everybody does. So the question to you is that when we hear that the painting of this artist was sold for millions of dollars. There is another artist who is there, you know, they have made hundreds of paintings, but nothing has really caught up. So what are some of the qualities which takes a painting to the height? And most of the paintings are literally ignored. So if you can talk about your perspective, what are some of the key elements which gets your attention? This is a harder question than you might realize, but... I think some of the things that I'm looking for are innovation. So one thing I'm looking for is an artwork that takes the history of art in a new direction. Often I'm looking for just sheer skill. So if there's a medium, whether it's oil paint or weaving or sculpting, if the artist has somehow managed to achieve something technically incredible and taken their material to a new level, that is also exciting. And then for me, maybe a third example of what would make a work of art truly valuable is if it's made at a moment in history where... A lot of exciting things are happening, you know, for example a work of art that's made on the eve of a revolution and that speaks to the hopes and the dreams of the people who are involved in that moment in history. So those are a couple of examples of things that I think make a work of art stand out. Now that was exactly the question which I was asking and your answer is absolutely perfect. So now we have a little bit better sense of looking at art. Now, earlier we were talking about your experience of spending some time with a Muslim family in India, which led you to your interest in Islamic art. Now, if you go to India, you know, up there are so many regions, so many, you know, the tribal work and regional work and things like that. But if you divide into two basic schools, one is the Hindu art, which is generally known as the Indian art or something you can call it. And then there is Islamic art. So, is there any similarity between these two from the art point of view? Are these two types of arts are totally different? When I look at the art of, let's say, the Indian subcontinent, what I tend to do is look at artistic practices, the traditions of a community or a group of artists, how they make art and what they're trying to express. And sometimes I think it's totally easy to say, okay, this is connected to Hindu religion and it's very much part of Hindu Indian society. And then other times you look at a mosque architecture and you can say, okay, this is in this lot, this part, this object or this building is part of Islamic tradition. I see a lot of overlap in. In paintings, in musical traditions, in literary traditions, specifically, you know, in places like the Deccan, you see so much connection between Islamic and Indic or Persian and Indic. And I think there were periods in history where the connections were so strong that the dividing line becomes even a little bit blurry. And I'm talking about culture, religion. is religion and there have been separations and distinctions between religious communities forever but culture I love the way that culture flows across language boundaries, religious boundaries and so I see the overlap as much as I see the distinctions. Now I'm going to add another layer and that is Southeast Asian art like Thailand, Indonesia go in that part of the world and there is a further mixture of Hindu, Islamic, Buddhist you know all these you know Chinese so um i want to hear your views about that type of art as well because you also oversee or curate that art at the museum too right museum that's right okay so tell us about how that art is distinct from what we're talking about you're really making me work okay so There is a lot, again, that overlaps between the art of India and the art of Southeast Asia. So many stories and religious traditions and artworks even traveled from India to, let's say, Indonesia or to Myanmar or to Thailand. And so we can see connections, and that helps me as somebody who is focused mainly on India to understand what's going on in Southeast Asia. But there's also the local traditions that are unique to Southeast Asia and That's something else that kind of is an ingredient that mixes in and makes Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam in Southeast Asia unique and makes it its own flavor. So for me, as different as Islamic art, South Asian art, Southeast Asian art, these are all these huge complex worlds of art and they are distinctive, but the areas of overlap. What I hold on to and they kind of bring it all together and make it possible to sort of see connections. And that is something that is really meaningful to me. So actually, if you come to the Museum of Fine Arts and you go to our gallery of South and Southeast Asian art, the theme of that gallery is connections. And in various places in the gallery, we look at how stories, for example, the story of Durga is something that originated in Hindu art of India. But then became a very powerful story among artists in Java and was depicted in stone in Java in a different way there. So the idea that trade and travel have connected these regions for thousands of years and that has led to great art is something that I think is really important, but also resonates with me as somebody today who lives in a global world where we are all traveling and carrying ideas and identities with us. So, Museum of Fine Arts has one of the best collections of, you know, such art in the United States. Now, somebody is watching our conversation and our talk about Islamic, Hindu, Indian, Southeast Asian art, and they get excited that, oh, you know, I want to learn more about it. And they say, oh, Museum of Fine Arts must have some of this stuff. So, they go to the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. What they should be looking for and what is there for them to see? So if you come to the museum, you will find that there are several galleries where you can see art from South Asia at any time. Two of the main places you want to go are, one, the Gallery of South and Southeast Asian Art, which has sculpture and decorative arts from Southeast Asia and all different parts of India. That gallery has beautiful examples of Hindu and Buddhist temple sculpture as well as some ceramics and metalwork and just gorgeous objects. And that's always there for you, but you can also go to the painting gallery, which is nearby, where we show examples from our collection of Rajput, Pahari, Mughal, even Dekhani painting. That space has a new show every six months, where we take out works from the painting collection according to a theme or some kind of concept for that show. So, we have one of the... We have the oldest collection of Indian paintings in any museum in the United States. So Laura, thank you very much for educating us about all the art and the collection and your take and also a little bit about the museum. So, what is the next upcoming big exhibition at the museum? We are in the process now of planning an exhibition that will be opening in April of 2028 and it will be on the art and material culture and fashion connected with weddings in South Asia. This is a very exciting development because this will be the biggest exhibition of Indian art to ever be launched at the Museum of Fine Arts Boston and we are I'm collaborating with the Philadelphia Museum of Art, which also has a very old and rich collection, so that together we can put together a show that reflects the fashion, the textiles that are made for and worn at weddings, jewelry, but also paintings, for example, paintings that show the wedding of Shiva and Parvati. So this exhibition is something that we're working on now, and actually I'm going to Trying to reach out to the... South Asian Diaspora here in Boston over the next year as we develop the exhibition, looking for all kinds of feedback and contributions. Very good. I'm looking forward to that as well. And so now in that wedding During the exposition, what type of pieces will be there? We're thinking of organizing the exhibition so that it starts from the beginning of a wedding where there are gifts exchanged between a groom's family and a bride's family. So that could be textiles. It's often jewelry. Thank you. There's often also festivities in that early phase where the works of art, you might say, aren't physical. They're songs. They're flowers. their food so we do want to explore that kind of multi-sensory splendor of a wedding and then when you get into further into the wedding you want to talk about fashion because what people wear to a wedding is so important And then you might get to ritual. Different rituals require different types of objects and also ritual settings where a wedding can be carried out. And I should say, when we planned this exhibition, we are thinking about South Asia broadly, which is a place where there are weddings among Hindu populations, but also Muslim and Sikh and Jain and these different communities have different types of rituals and different types of objects. So are you also thinking about having something from the... The weddings here in the U.S. of Indian diaspora or? Exactly, so then we're thinking that we maybe will finish the exhibition with a section that looks at the diaspora and what it means to get married So for last almost 20 years, we at India Today News, every year we organize a wedding expo and this year's wedding expo is going to happen in February. I think most probably February 28th just before your real expo starts. Well, Your next expo is in February of 27, and our exhibition starts in April 28. Okay, so I will be there. I will be at the India Today Expo, interviewing people, looking at the beautiful textiles and jewelry and flowers. It will be an incredible event. And also, if you see that the wedding culture in Indian diaspora, so if you went about 15 or 20 years ago, The wedding was always among the same group of people, Gujaratis, Gujaratis, you know, South Indians, South Indians, all that. But now that wedding has completely changed. Now it has about 70% or so weddings are either interreligious or intercaste or interracial. It is incredible how the Indian wedding and South Asian wedding has completely changed in the U.S. Just right in front of our eyes. So if you can have something from that aspect at your expo, that would be a fantastic thing to do. Absolutely. And come to the expo and you will see, you know, you can talk to people as well, as you said. I will be there. Excellent. Good. Laura, as we have been talking about art, culture, history, you know, going back centuries back in this Indian-South Asian context, How do you look at the future? And especially given today's digital technology, where any picture, any painting, any artist you want to learn, find, see the picture right away, you can see on your palm, on your phone. So how the experience of looking and reading and finding all these things on your phone and actually being in a museum and feeling and seeing is different. That's my one question. And the second question will be with all these AI today and AI-generated videos, pictures, artwork, and all those things. How this is going to impact the world of art, art and museums? It seems to me that the technologies that make it possible to see art from your home, from your computer, are amazing for research. They are great for kind of connecting people who are curious about art or culture, who might be in different parts of the globe. All of a sudden, they can connect. It's fantastic. But I think that people will always need to be together and to be in the presence of real things, to be able to see something that is from. The past that has survived for thousands of years and is kind of a tangible piece of history that's right there in front of you, I don't think that that, I think that that's still meaningful and valuable, helps us stay grounded and helps us understand who we are in a way that a digital image cannot. So now the next question is that with again advancement in AI and technology where you can create anything in instant whether you want to. Music, the art, writing, all these things just happening instant. Somebody who doesn't have any background can have some idea. So how do you think that AI is going to change the world of art? I think AI is causing us to rethink what it means to create, what it means for something to be original or unique. It's raising all of these fundamental questions. Thank you. And it may be in the future that the difference between A real object and, you know, an AI-generated object becomes meaningless. So the world is very uncertain. I take comfort in the fact that even as we are going into this unknown period, we will have these repositories like museums, libraries, archives. Here in New England, we have these old houses that you can visit if you want to have kind of a connection to something concrete from the past before all of these huge questions became so present in our lives every day. Laura, thank you very much for your time. And we are looking forward to honoring you on November 14th at the Bollinger Marriott. Thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to it.