Pope Leo in Latin America: Papal Politics and Peru

Pope Leo is heading to Argentina for the second leg of his South America tour. It's due to set off in the next 45 minutes. He's expected to draw the biggest turnout of his papacy so far. Seven million people expected for masses in Buenos Aires and Cordoba. The pontiff wrapping up his first visit to Uruguay, making headlines as well today, calling on men to respect their wives in a region that's plagued by gender-based violence. This was part of his homily in the city of Florida, just north of Montevideo. Dear fathers and grandfathers, treat your wives with respect, ask for forgiveness, and live with integrity, even when doing so requires sacrifice. También cuando hacerlo exige sacrificios. Well, let's assess the pastoral and the politics of his tour three weeks on from his lung cancer operation. Colleen Hieupala joins us, the Vatican correspondent for America magazine and co-host of the excellent Inside the Vatican podcast. Great to have you back with us, Colleen. Very good to be with you, Gavin. Let's begin your take. You've been watching what's been happening in Uruguay, why he chose Uruguay, and the message that he's made headlines for. What do you make of that? Yeah, it's an interesting question because Uruguay is much smaller than the other countries that he's visiting on this trip. It's also much less Catholic. It's a very secular country. So in some ways, we're seeing parallels here with the message he was delivering in secular France the last time we talked, Gavin. I think that his main message there was, one, he wanted to kind of... Encourage the Catholic community there that is becoming increasingly a minority. That was something that he spoke to in his talks there. But also he wanted to kind of raise up some of the political initiatives that the government has taken, even in a secular country, to protect kind of those on the margins of society. So Uruguay, for example, has some economic policies that he is very much in favor of raising up. Also, it's not nearly as polarized as the other two countries, Argentina and Peru, that he's visiting on this trip. And so he wants to kind of deliver that message of overcoming polarization and pushing towards peace and unity, as he's constantly saying. Well, let's talk about the most, I imagine, the most polarizing coming up, perhaps. Given that, well, the leader of the country has had a run in, not with him personally, but particularly with the previous Pope, the Argentinian Pope Francis, I think he called him the devil's representative on earth at one point. Tell us about the challenges and the purpose, as you see it, for the mission for Leo in the next few days. In Argentina specifically, I would say Leo first is kind of trying to deliver on something that I think he knows was really close to Francis' heart, returning to the country, which Francis was never able to do, in part because Francis was very aware that any trip he made there could be... used, interpreted as an endorsement of one side or another in the country, and he was really trying to avoid adding fuel to the kind of fire of polarization in his home country. He is able to go to Argentina with a bit more distance as a non-Argentine, and I think deliver with credibility this message of unity that he's been pushing. It will be interesting to see later today what he says in his speech to Argentine authorities. That'll be a speech given in the presence of In that one, I suspect that he's going to speak about some of the Catholic social teaching elements that he thinks are so important without using them as kind of a way to hit Milei over the head with certain policy advocacy points. One point will be... The dignity of workers, for example, he's going to do a lot of things in the coming days meeting with groups of work organizations, labor organizations. He's also probably going to talk about. The importance of government support for certain initiatives that help people on the margins. So, for example, he's going to have a highly anticipated visit to a disability care facility in Argentina. And I think that may be similar to his visit to Lourdes in France, where he spoke very strongly against the use of major law in France. I think here he'll probably talk about the threat that this facility is under because Malay has talked about. cutting funds to organizations like this. So we'll have to see, but I'm sure that he'll constantly be grounding things in, you know, this is the church teaching, this is the gospel in action, rather than saying your government is doing poorly or whatever. And we're noticing, aren't we, just in the past few months, that how much of an adept diplomat he is, as well as being the head of the world's 1.4 billion Catholics. I just wonder, this strikes me, he's meeting President Milei, I mentioned about, you know, the pretty horrible things that he said about Francis. He later kind of, I think, mended that relationship a little bit. As you said, Francis didn't go to Argentina. We should also look at Milei. His chainsaw austerity measures have been, you know, criticized by the church. What do you imagine? How would you imagine that meeting playing out? Because let's face it, I mentioned the start of this. He's a canny operator with difficult world leaders, isn't he? Yeah, he very much is. And it's hard to say exactly what's going to happen inside the meeting. I think that he will continue to hold this kind of diplomatic line where he's quite polite and meeting with people. And yet at the same time, I think that he does. Thank Make clear where the church stands. And in this case, the bishops in Argentina, as you alluded to, have been really vocal against these austerity measures. So I think that, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if Leo then emphasizes that. We'll probably get a very kind of restrained readout from both sides from that meeting. So we'll see kind of what the two agree on in their various readouts. you. But I think, you know, the more public message will be what he delivers in the speech to the civil authorities later today. This is very interesting. This came in a few minutes ago from Reuters, Colleen. It says, the visit of the Pope aims to boost the flagging faith of a country left disappointed by Francis's decision never to return as Pope. He says, in the church's decline, a sign of it, 57.7% of people define themselves as Catholic in a recent University of Buenos Aires poll. A distinct lack of, quote, Pope fever on the streets in Buenos Aires. And yet, I've talked about what the government says, It says that crowds of 7 million are waiting. What do you make of that? Yeah, it's interesting. I haven't seen that Reuters report, so I haven't been able to examine it yet. But, you know, they're always very reliable. That 7 million figure came from the civil authorities. I think they were expecting, let's see, for the Buenos Aires service, 1.5 million. In Lujan, 1 to 2 million, according to the Secretary of Worship. And then in Córdoba, more than 1 million, although that was a pretty early projection. So, you know, we'll see. If the turnout isn't what they're expecting, I think that could be disappointing. At the same time, I think that the crowds are going to be very, very significant in any case, even if they don't reach that 7 million figure. So we'll just have to see. Well, so from the pastoral and the messaging to the political to the emotional, let's talk about Peru. And tell us about the homecoming, what it means, and a bit about his life in Peru and perhaps where he's choosing to go in the next few days. Yeah, sure. So Peru, it was funny, as this trip was being planned, we just heard, you know, the rumored length of the trip was getting longer and longer because the Peruvians kept wanting to add stops for the Pope. In the end, he's not actually been able to go to all the places that he worked and lived. So just for some background for the viewers, basically. Pope Leo was in Peru for one year briefly in a northern city, Chulucanas, as kind of a very young canon lawyer helping to regularize the church law situation of a diocese there. Then he returned for about 10 years as a priest, as a pastor, and also helped out a lot with the diocesan education. That was in Trujillo. And then later in 2014, he returned to Chiclayo, another big city, as a... Bishop. And so that was the point at which he got Peruvian citizenship. So he's going to Chiclayo. He's going to meet with people who he knew personally, who he worked with not that long ago. Right. He only got this Vatican position that forced him to leave Peru in 2023. So it's been a very quick ascendancy through the church ranks for him. He will not be returning to Trujillo where he was for so long, but the government is expecting a lot of people to kind of make the trip to try to go and see him. Another kind of emotional moment will probably be when he visits this chapel that he helped. Uh, kind of rehabilitated. It was in disrepair. Um, this is outside of Chiclayo. It's a chapel dedicated to the martyred Archbishop, uh, Oscar Romero, who was a key figure in, uh, kind of social justice Catholicism. He really took the side of, of the regular people and the workers in El Salvador's, uh, civil war. And so, uh, Leo helped personally as bishop fix that place up and he's going to make a return trip to there and I think that that'll be very moving as well. We'll get a lot of heartwarming moments, I think. Yeah, I think you're right. One thing we haven't talked about... Because I guess it's the sense that he's just getting on with this, but we haven't talked about his health. He's three weeks on from this operation for lung cancer. Do you get any insight from the Vatican and from those around him on how he's doing, whether he's managing anything or whether he's in great, full health and spirits? Yeah, I think the one thing we keep hearing is that he is very, very determined to make this trip. He said to reporters on the flight over to Uruguay that he had no doubt that it was going to go forward. Also, his new prefect, kind of the head person for communications in the Vatican who just started recently, said that Leo had personally approved the schedule, that he had not agreed to cutting anything, And in fact had. Had added some other events to the schedule. So, yeah, I think, you know, while there may be some doubt from some around him about whether it was wise to undertake this kind of journey this quickly. What we heard from the doctors and what we're hearing from the Vatican and even from the pope himself is that he's able to make the journey. He wants to make the journey. And here we are. They've also denied that there has been any additional kind of medical precautions taken. There was a report that came out. from Peru about a possible like air helicopter, sorry, air ambulance to be on standby when he goes to some higher elevation places. And the Vatican said, nope, that's not the case. That's really interesting. And like we talked about when you were on The World This Week with us not too long ago here in France, sometimes we get an indication of how he's feeling, perhaps with future trips. In brief, do we get an idea of what next? Because he does travel a lot Yeah, he does travel a lot. There are some rumoured visits, but nothing confirmed for the rest of this calendar year. So I think we'll probably get a better idea around New Year's about what's coming next. Maybe some people will be willing to go on record about possible future visits. So we'll have to stay tuned. Colin, always great to talk to you. Thank you for your time. Colin Dulla, Vatican correspondent for American Magazine and the excellent Inside the Vatican podcast.