Why Smart Kenyans Stay Broke? | The Truth About Investing & Building Wealth

So the only thing I could say is that you've heard this really old saying, the best time to plant a tree was a hundred years ago, but the next best time is tomorrow. And so with investing, what you're doing is you're planting a tree into your future. Get started, whether it's 5,000 shillings, 15,000, whatever it might be, so you can learn and be conscious about what do you want from life so you can plan towards it. Just have a plan. Get started. It might feel so big, but break down your goals into small, small goals. At least you've got started and then naturally those habits will form. Welcome back for our today's episode. I am your host Celestine Dinda. I hope you're feeling amazing. I hope you're feeling great. It's always a pleasure when I sit here and talk to you and then we air the episode and I see a few comments and I see people liking, subscribing. Thank you so much. And I always feel so nice when we have a guest on set who is Ready to share my teacher something. I'm just tell us something, you know, knowledge is power. So today we have a guest on set. I am so excited. I am really looking forward to learning. Her name is Rathika. I would love her to share, at least introduce yourself. Then maybe we can start going. We can keep going. Yeah. Thank you Celeste for having me. So my name is Radhika Bachu and I'm the CEO and co-founder of Ndovu Wealth. At Ndovu Wealth, we help Kenyans take their hardened money, invest it responsibly so they can achieve financial freedom. Now tell me, who doesn't want to be financially free? Who doesn't want to wake up and do the things they love to do? And we're here to help you with that. And I'm excited to share a lot about my journey, how investments work. And thank you, Celeste, for having me. Thank you for coming. I must say, you must be a busy person, right? But I'm happy you're here. Thank you. I really appreciate that you made it time for us to come to our show. Now let me, my first question, my first, first question. I really wanted to ask you this. Why do you think that many Kenyans or rather many, yeah, many people, we make money, but we still stay broke? There's a very big question there. Yeah, it's very deep. And the reason being is because first of all, no one taught us. It's as simple as that. You know, majority of us, especially in Kenya, we came from humble backgrounds with technology advancements, with us being able to learn things online, get degrees. Technology allows us to work for an international company. We come into money. But no one really taught us, you know, the psychology of money that you need to think about. And no one ever really told us that money is meant to work for you, not the other way around. Our parents' generation was you work till you die. Yeah, yeah. Right. And if you look at in the US, actually, so. The way money works for you is when you invest it in capital markets, and we'll talk about that. But in the US, the stat is that 60% of households invest in capital markets. In Africa, leave Kenya out, but in Africa, it's 1%. That means all of us are working really, really hard till we die to create income, to live the life that we want. And it's a, psychologically, we don't believe we deserve this money. And so there's a bit of... Changing your mindset from, you know, scarcity to abundance and knowing that you deserve it. And the second thing is you need tools. You need to understand how to make money work for you. And it's actually very simple. So, yeah, that's partly why. So, mindset. Mindset. We need to shift our mindset. Because there's a joke. I don't know if you're online, but there's a joke where... We get our salaries on the 5th of every month, maybe 5th to 10th, and by the 12th, we're broke. Like it's a sad reality. It is a sad reality. Yeah, we are broke. Now we are back to begging, borrowing. I don't know. I don't know. And I think a big of it comes down to, with social media, the age that we live at, it's all about consumption. Everyone is saying, oh, I need to have the new shoes. I need to have the new makeup. I need to go to that new restaurant. New latest phone. Latest phone. Actually, what about ownership? If you're going to go buy the latest phone, why can't you invest in the companies and own a part of that company so it can make you money as you buy the new phone? So there's a shift between consuming to I need to move to ownership. And never before now you can do it, but before you couldn't do that. You couldn't hold stock in Samsung, you couldn't own the stock of Apple, but now you can, and it's just knowing how to. So you've said something, social media. So what do you think that's one, the one mistake? Because there's something you said, we are always consumerism. We want to, we are always keeping up. I'm all, I'm part of them. I won't. I was part of them too. Yeah, I'm part of them. We want the latest phone, we want the latest, we want to keep up with the trends. What's the biggest mistake you see on social media? Honestly, I just think comparison, you know, the reality is that our parents were so much happier, simpler. The only people you're comparing yourself was to an inner network. Now you're competing with people who live in the US. 60% and you have a 1% in Africa. They're buying things. So I know there's this whole like soft life Instagram and people are like on a private jet or a, first of all, it's probably fake in all honesty, but even the ones who are If you are real, they don't... They don't pay for that from their income, they pay it from their investment interest and that's the difference and in order to build investment interest at a young age of 24-25 you have to work hard, you have to start investing and then you live the good life in like your 40s, you know, and that's what's missing, the patience. The knowledge of knowing that what you see is not the reality, they at some point had to work really hard. And I remember being in school and I always came third in class and I'd always be like, why is this person just so smart? No, this person worked hard. When they went home, they worked hard. They woke up, they worked hard. Any rich person you meet has worked hard at some point in their life in order to build capital. But what social media shows you is a soft life. And I'm guilty of it too. I go on to a, you know, I go on there. We don't expect you to show us how your busy day is you trying to hustle. No, no one sees that. Everyone sees this, oh, you know. You've made it, but really it took a long time to get there and it's hard work and sacrifice. And so that's what I'm trying to teach my kids. That you have to work hard and you have to do things you don't like. Suck it up. Yeah. That's the reality. There's no shortcut. When did you start investing? How did Ndovu come to be? So I'll answer your first question. How did you start investing? So I was fortunate enough to go to the UK to study. And I remember, even though, I mean, I don't come from a really wealthy family. But when... I got to the UK, I was studying and I could get a part-time job. So there you can go to a shoe store and they'll give you a sales assistant's job. And I started earning money when I was 15, okay, and meaningful money. So I used to work Saturday, Sunday, six, seven hours a day, built my confidence. I was getting a bit of pocket money, but I saved. I didn't invest. So let's just say in calculation back then terms, I was probably earning 100,000 shillings a month. Okay, so when you were 15, when I was 15, because the UK, there's a minimum salary, the pound is strong. Okay. And so okay, fine. So I was earning, but I was saving. And it was only when I turned 23, when I joined Deloitte in London, did I start investing. But I've been working since I was 16. In fact, when I lived in Canada, I used to do the paper round. And I had money too, and we just saved it. Paper round is like what? Oh yeah, yeah, it's a very American thing, yeah. So paper round, and I always forget this part of the story, but when I was studying in Canada when I was younger, and my aunt used to be at the distribution of Business Daily. Let's use Business Daily as an example. But the Business Daily in the UK or in Canada is free because... You get advertisement pays for their business. So they would have children who would go and deliver paper to paper at... I think we had that in Kenya at some point. There was a gazette that was being given for free. For free. I don't know where it was. Yeah, so now somebody has to deliver it. So what they do is they hire kids who will do a paper round. Whether it's raining, snowing, whether it's really hot, you have to deliver the paper. And then they pay you. And then they pay you for it. And then at the end of the... month when it's time like it's monthly and then you know the culture in the U.S. and Canada is very much about tipping so you would get tipped by the houses because they know these are young children just doing the paper round but I started earning when I was 11 12 in that yeah actually I always forget this part of the journey and I just wish I started investing at 16 because where I am today majority of my wealth comes from capital markets because I started investing at 23. And everyone teaches and Kenyans have become so good at saving, you know, save here, save here. But inflation, which is the cost of living, is going up. So the same 1,000 shillings would have got you like chips, soda and stuff from Kenchik. Now you're paying 1,200, Bob. I don't know. I haven't had Kenchik in a while. But yeah, you know, 100, Bob, I mean, 1,000, Bob, and now it's like 1,200. The same thing is costing more and that's the cost of living going up. So when you save your money, your money is actually losing value. I'd rather you go out and spend it because at least you're enjoying life. That's true. But instead, you need to learn how to invest it. And we'll come to that, I'm sure. Yeah, that's true. Is there a money habit you picked? Because from 11, 12, did you pick anything from your parents? Who got you into saving? I'm hearing you say you were saving. Us, we are 30s, 40s. We've not even started saving even in circles. Yeah, yeah. Interestingly enough, I think maybe it was... So, you know, when we were in Canada, again, my dad would send us money. But I remember thinking, oh my God, I know like dad works really hard. He's sending us money for pocket money and the things to do. But I know how hard he worked and because of the currency difference. You know, when you go on holiday and you're like, whoa, this soda is so expensive. I was there at one point, and so I just knew that instead of spending it, we should be saving. And there was no social media. Right, this desire, you're constantly be hit by a million images of the new dress, the new trend, the bow you need to have, the sunglasses you need. And we need to keep tabs. And you need to keep tabs and you want to be trendy because you want to go out and your girl mates, how nice it is when your girls are like, you look so nice. You're like, thanks, you know, kind of thing. We all want to look our best. Exactly. And so we didn't have that either. So I think just by default and the environment, I knew how hard my dad worked to put us through school. So when we earned, I would just save. Yeah. Okay. So you, what were the means? Where were you saving this a hundred thousand? Did you start immediately with the capital, like the money markets? No. So it's just in my bank account. So that's the kind of saving you are doing. Yeah. Saving. It's like you were just keeping it there. Yeah. It's like putting it under your mattress. It wasn't compounding. It wasn't growing. It wasn't growing. Until when did you learn now to? So I went to university and during university I worked as well. I had a very good job. On the weekend then Yeah, because I just feel... Well done. It's a good thing. Yeah, and actually now saying this out loud, because we've never gone that back far whenever I've done these episodes. Oh, wow. Yeah, so this is nice, Celeste. You're making me go down memory lane. I've always worked. Yeah, and sometimes you're just a workaholic, I think. You're always thinking of ways. It's a good thing. It's not bad. It's not bad. Yeah. Honestly, I don't think it's bad. And so anyway, so I used to work at university and then I joined the graduate program at Deloitte. And I was advising pension funds, big corporations like British Airways, Pension Fund, Pepsi and the likes of where do they take their pension fund money. So pension fund simply means is that when you work at an employer, they say soon you will come to retire. So as you're working, we'll take small chunks of your salary and we'll. Put it in the pension fund. We'll put some money in so that when you retire, you can live off this. Yeah, so we also have that. We, I know we do. Yeah, pension, yeah. Yeah, we do. But the thing with ours is that I don't know if every, it's just not very, yeah, let's leave it. Yeah, let's leave it there. Yeah. And so, so obviously I was on the investment side. We'd also see what pension fund recommendations. And then I was like, wait a minute. If we can make money for our pension funds. We can also make money for us now. Yeah, I was like, what about me? And that's when I went and I found an app online that's well-known, regulated, and I started investing as little as 50 bucks, like 5,000 bob. It's perfect. That was at, in your twenties now, 23, still working with them up until what point did you now decide, how about I build this up for mine? Oh, so now, yeah, yeah. So then of course, fast forward, I moved over to BlackRock, which is the world's largest asset manager. And there again, I was working with pension funds, institutions to help them decide where to put their money and obviously matured in my ways. And then I'm Kenyan, born and raised, and I wanted to move back. So my husband and I came back to Kenya, and he joined his dad in business. I was like, what do I do with myself? You know, what am I going to do? Oh, no, I'm coming back. I'm so scared. It is the best thing I've ever done. But you know when you try something new and you go somewhere where it's unknown, you always have those feelings. So I had those feelings. And then I came here and had coffees with everybody, insurance, asset managers, consultants. Manufacturing owners, everybody you could think of, the first three months I was coffeed out. Um And then I, and first of all, I don't even drink coffee, so I chai'd out, masala tea out. And then I decided that actually there's a huge gap in the market in Africa. s So when I was in London, I was helping businesses. I used to tell my friends where to invest very and they would grow their money. But in Kenya, there was money market funds. Money market is a high savings account. It's not an investment in my opinion much. because the cost of living is going up by 6% every year. And then I said, why is it that, you know, as Kenyan, we're at a disadvantage. Everything we buy is pegged to the dollar, but yet we earn in Kenya shillings. So over the last five years, the Kenya shilling has depreciated. So it's lost its value by 30%. So if you wanted to go buy that new phone, you bought the new phone five years ago. It was a thousand bob, just for argument's sake. This year, if you went to go buy that phone again, it's 1300 shillings. So you need to find 1300 shillings, 300 shillings more to buy the same product. And so we're already at a disadvantage. So I said, okay, I don't know how to run a business, but I do know everything to do with investments. I joined an accelerator program. So there's a program where they teach you how to build businesses. And if they like your business, they'll invest in the business. You can get off the ground. Oh, okay. And so I applied for it. I got in and that's where I met my co-founder as well. But he had, I looked at my weaknesses... So, of course, I have all this knowledge, but I don't know how to do business in Kenya. I don't understand the regulations. What am I good at? What am I not good at? You do what you're good at. You leave the rest. Yeah. So, I found someone to, so my co-founder to do that with me. And we started this business and we... The vision of the businesses in the next decade, every African will be capital market investing. So investing in money market funds, bonds, equities, whether they know it or not, even the Mamamboga. So that's the vision in 10 years. And today we serve over 200,000 clients. We are regulated in Kenya, Rwanda, Uganda by the Capital Markets Authority. And we are also embedding our solutions into big distribution companies. So people can create money. And last year, I'm really excited to share that we generated 28% return on USD, which is more, which is amazing. And this year, we think it would be 20% on Kenya shilling and 18% on the dollar. Tell us more about that. I think I'm interested now with the product. I know I didn't have that, but now I'm interested. How does it work? You've said something about money market. You don't term it as an investment. It's not an investment. Yeah. Why? Yeah, why and... Because for us, we think if we put money, it grows. Then we're investing. It's working for us. Yeah. So the thing is, money market funds are really good. It's the first thing that you should hold because of an emergency fund. So they're perfect for emergencies. Perfect for emergencies because they preserve your capital. So if you put in 1,000 bob or 10,000 shillings, it will always remain 10,000 shillings. The value doesn't go down. And it's going to grow slowly, slowly. But in order to give you that capital guarantee, fund managers like us have to invest in low-risk assets. That's why the return is not high. It is just anywhere from 8% to 9% to 10%. And so if your money is growing 8% to 9% to 10%, that's great. But if the cost of living, so things are getting more expensive by 6%, 7%, you're only making 2%. It's just preserving your capital. So that's why I say it's a savings account. Because none of us should have large amounts of money in a savings account. That's just a big no-no. But money market is great. You have your runway for six months. Should anything happen, somebody falls sick, you can pull that money out immediately. And then on Ndovu, we have special funds, which are multi-asset. So what I mean by multi-asset, it's a fund that's managed professionally. And that portfolio manager goes and invests on your behalf in cash, bonds, equities. Okay, I get it now. And then we will target a return of 20% on Kenya Shilling, which is really good. So I give you my money, then you see where you're going to invest. But it's all in capital markets, so bonds, equities, and cash. As long as I'm going to get my interest, okay. What is the short... Okay, sorry, continue. Because as an everyday person, you're good at making podcasts, you're good at generating income, but you don't have the skill set. Yeah, I'm not good at knowing where to invest. And this is why you come to fund managers like us. Because it's like, oh, I know how to do it, let me do it and I'll give you a good return. So my work is, I keep on doing my work, making my money, then giving the fund's manager to know where to invest. Correct, yes, yeah. The least amount of time I can have my money with you guys. So it's actually some of our products you can invest today, remove the money tomorrow. But of course, we don't recommend that because it's not earning anything. So I always say hold for six months to a year. We have different products. Our flagship products, we recommend holding for six months and then you can withdraw if you need the cash or interest. Okay. So I always say money market funds are for the short term. So if you need your cash, that's where you would go first. And then when you come to Ndovu, you'd have your long term portfolio. So you're saving for a house. You're saving for a car, you're saving for the holiday or the education, the MBA you want to do or, you know, paying for your children's education. That's now when we invest in the right product for you. OK. And you will earn anywhere from 14 to 30 percent, depending on what you choose. What's your take on circles? I don't know if you've heard about circles. Now, I want to. I want you to share your takes on all these other investments. Not ruling out, not saying anything about them. But you said money markets are perfect for emergencies. I'd also want to hear how about circles, how about real estate? What's your take? Uh-huh. Um, so... Okay, so real estate is the easy one. Do not buy land, people. The audience, do not buy land unless and unless you're sure the value will go up. in three to four years time and or you want to build a home there and that's now in shags and it's next to mama and baba and you know that's a good idea. So unless you have you want to do it something you want to do something. What I recommend is buying real estate which generates income so you want to do your math and say okay if I bought this apartment in Kilimani I'm paying whatever eight to nine to ten million shillings. When I put it on rent, will I get enough back for it to make sense? Will I get more money back, for example, after paying the expenses, fixing a few things here, paying tax? Is this worth it? But real estate has a really good part of your portfolio because it's a regular income that comes in every month. Yes, there's management, but it forms that part of the portfolio. Now, SACCOs are really interesting. Interesting. I think. So when I did my research, the idea of a SACCO is that they allow you to borrow money at a much friendlier rate than the top tier banks. The return, like the payment. The interest. You know how when you borrow a loan, there's normally banks charge 13%, which is really high. SACO's around 8, 9. Exactly. So now that makes sense. So if you are running a business and you know you'll need. to borrow money to grow the business then a SACO makes a lot of sense but if you're not planning to run a business actually saving with a SACO is just saving again you're not getting you rather hold the money in a money market fund because it's giving you nine percent And then some of it in a special fund because it's giving you 20%. So you really need to understand. And this is why I think everyone finds money so complicated because there's no one answer fits all. Yeah. But SACOs have a place in your portfolio if you need to borrow. If you need to borrow. If you are... Looking back, I'm trying to see, there's an audience or there's someone who's watching who is now 25 to 30 years. They're earning now 100k. Let's say they've gotten this beautiful job. Congratulations. They've prayed for the longest time. Yeah, congratulations. Where would you start investing if you are them? Yeah. Yeah. So first things first, I would put a roughly. I slowly grow my... So first of all, rule of thumb, you should be saving 20%. Saving 20%. So that's 20,000 shillings from the 100k. The 80,000 is expenses, rent, etc. I even go to the extent and I get a lot of negative feedback on this. I also say that initially you need to live like you're broke. If you can move in with your parents, house share. Whatever it is, why are you paying for rent when you don't have an emergency fund? Why are you paying for rent if you haven't put money in the money market? You need to live like you're broke. For the first three to four to five years. No, I love it. That means you need to cut down your expenses. 100%. Okay, I'm not being cheap, but it's also... So my thing is that I don't even buy lunch in a way. So I always bring my lunch from home. Firstly, because I like to eat very simple, clean food. Okay. But also it's expensive. Nairobi is expensive. Very expensive. One big thing, a lot of us start working, this 25-year-old, and they're like, yeah, I'm going to order in. They do three deliveries a week. Okay, that's roughly like 1,500 shillings. 1,500 times 4. That's 45. That's 5,000. 5,000, which you could have invested and it could be earning 20%. And you could be eating cleaner. You know, you tell your mom, a friend who's cooking, make me some food. You don't know where it is. Yeah, I love that example. Yeah, because this is a big problem amongst us Kenyans. And that's what we do. We order in. We order in. So in a week, you're spending around 7,000. I'm just ordering in. Yeah. And I, you know, I know that there's mamas who make chapatis and githeri and yeah, that's fine because actually the cost. But when you order a Bolt, like, you know, whatever it is, chicken in, it adds up. And the thing is that where you are with the hundred thousand shillings. You need to build an emergency fund. You've just started, in fact. You've just started, in fact. This is your first job. Yeah, and the thing is, I'm not saying don't eat out at all. I'm saying do it once a week. Don't do three times, four times because you're tired. Just be disciplined, you know, just a little bit disciplined. Plan ahead and say, okay, I'm going to go out on Saturday night. I don't need to have such an expensive Thursday. You know, it's not expensive, but for a hundred thousand shilling person, it's a lot. If you're spending that much on your income. If we said you earn 100,000 shillings and let's say you're spending... You've saved 20, so now you have 80. You have 80. Now of that 80, if you're spending 8,000 shillings, let's give or take a week. Okay, so let's say a month, 8,000 shillings a month, that's 10% of your income on takeout. Oh, yeah. 10% of your income on takeout. I never thought of it that way. Think of it that way. You're seeing from this hundred that I have. That's supposed to be, that's a lot. It's a lot. When you put it in context, that's a lot. So next month, another 10%. Next month, okay. And all I'm saying is bring that 10% down to 5%. 5%. And obviously our clients are all different. So you're 100K clients, 130 million shilling clients. We have different types of clients. But anyways, the idea is that we've now, the 80% is living. So of course you've got rent, traveling to work, groceries, et cetera, et cetera, utilities, fine. But with that 20%, the 20,000 shillings, if I was a 25 year old, first I would make sure to get at least 80,000 shillings into an emergency, a money market fund. So the first, let's say, four months, I just do a money market fund. And that will eventually grow by the end of the year to roughly, it'll keep growing slowly, slowly. And that gives you that leeway that should something happen, you've got a bit of income and it's protected. And then on the fifth month, I would say, OK, now I don't really want to. I've got my emergency fund. Now let's start looking at investments, like actual investments. So let's come on, Dovu, let's buy some gold. Come on to buy a special fund. And And that's then now you've got this portfolio that's safe and secure. I know we go through a lot of black tax. Yeah. It's in the 80k. I know, it's in the 80k. So reduce the order in so that you can get black tax. So my thing is normally, if I'm saving 20%, 1% is for the black tax. So the way in my mind I put it is that, okay, I'll save the, so 20K, I'll take 10%. That's 2000 shillings this month. No one came to me, woohoo, like good. Next month someone comes in like I need 4K. You're like, no, no, I only have two. And then I still have the two, but you top it up every month. So then when it comes to a point of, you've given your money out and then somebody's like, I still need money, but look, I don't have it. And you don't feel guilty. You've done your bit because you've given the money away. Thank But yeah, so I would do the money market fund and then I'd slowly with time look to invest in special funds, gold, S&P 500 for, you know, the... That's a nice hack. Because now that even aunts say, that tells me when you start, you don't need to land your first job, you. then start saving, investing, you're in a circle, you're in a MMF. Too much. So I love that. So the first four months, emergency fund set. Done. The next four months, now we invest. Done. I love it. It sounds like a nice plan. Yeah. For somebody at 100K, now if there's somebody at, let's say earning 250 or 300,000 shillings, then 20% of 300,000 shillings is 60K. Now with a 60K salary, you can do both. Actually, you can start building a money market. So it just depends on your income. How much? Yeah. How much you're working. Okay. Now if someone is 35, Thank you very much. Thank you very much. With age comes different goals and spending habits. At 35, I just got my first job. Maybe I'm earning 100K. Will I still do the same as someone who was at 25? Yes. So there's nothing like at 35 now, first of all, start investing before we go to the emergency? No. So emergency is number one, rule of thumb. Just have some money in a money market fund growing at a good rate because life happens. That's just the reality of it. Yeah, and the thing with investments is investments, the function of an investment, it has to go up and down to make money, but it's always going up. But there's these noise in between. So if you didn't have an emergency fund, and then you wanted to, you have an emergency and you want to withdraw from your investment, there may be a point you're selling when the investment has come down. But you don't crystallize a loss unless you've sold the investment. But then for you, you're a first time investor, you've sold at a loss and you're thinking investing is not for me. So that's the challenge, right? So that's why the emergency fund is there. So that if the market is down, you're not selling at a loss. Because it will always go up. What is your take on passive income? I think passive income is what you are, your goals. That should be our goal. That's your goal. Passive income is a real thing. It is real. It makes your life a lot easier. It is a goal. Last time I said this, someone, I got a lot of backlash, but you know, when your parents... It seems like you're used to backlash. Yeah, it's because I say really, I say true things. You call it as is. Is, yeah. So I was talking, I was on a podcast and... You know the things that Kenyans do is like their parents have left them land and then they sell the land then they come into like a hundred million shillings. Just, I don't know, every family is different but let's just use it as an example. It's very common. And then what they do is they say, I'm going to go buy a house for 100 million shillings. It's like, no, no, this is your entire wealth. What you should be doing is investing 80 million shillings of that, still stay in a rented apartment, and that investment generating 20% every single month will be able to pay for your rent, your monthly expenses. That is what passive income is. So this generational thing of we have to buy a house, yes, it will come, but if it's... You've come into money, don't rush to invest your money in a business, don't rush to buy that nice car, don't rush to buy a house. Build wealth upon wealth and the only way you can do that is through investing. And then, you know, some of the comments are like, oh, yeah, but if I had 200 million shillings, I obviously have other wealth. But no, the clients that we deal with have come into money because it happens like that. They sell land, they get huge lump sum. Huge. Yeah. And it's the first time you're getting money. Yes. You don't know how to handle it. And then you lose it. And it feels like it's a lot, but it's not. Nairobi is very expensive. Yeah. And yeah, so the idea is that the passive income is what allows you to get up every day. And go do what you love to do to generate some income, but it's not your primary. You know, we're very lucky. We love our jobs. We love what we do. But there's so many people out there who are miserable. But if you can create a passive income portfolio, and there's a way to do numbers, actually, back, if you work backwards, it's very simple. So you say, OK, I want to have enough passive income to pay for my very bare minimum. So let's say somebody's earning 300,000 shillings and their monthly expenses are roughly 200k. OK. So we need to say, okay, 200 times 12, you get the number. And if we invested, what's the principle I need so that I can get 200K every single month from my investment without working. And once you do that math in your mind, you have to run yourself as a business. In your mind, you know, okay, instead of spending doing four takeouts a week or three takeouts a week, let me just do two, then I'm saving towards that pot. So once you've done your investment for the money market emergency fund, I always tell our clients, we're working for you. And then when you come to 35, you have children, you have school fees. I actually think that the 30s and the 40s either make you or break you because you're 25, you're early 30s, you're on your own, no responsibility. You turn 35, you have children. Now in your 40s, your parents have relied on you. Because they're retiring, they need your support. And those years are very transformative. And everyone just feels like we need to live in the now. But actually, if you get this period right, you could live a beautiful 50, 60, 70. Because you'll have enough money, your expenses goes down, and all that money is being generated by passive income. So you can work for fun. You can do something you love, but you know your investments are paying for your lifestyle. So you're encouraging us to be a little bit patient. In our 60s, 70s, we will get to enjoy. And I know everyone's going to say, yeah, but my health and, you know, I'm going to be... And YOLO. Yeah, YOLO. But actually... I mean, I'm nearly 40 and I still feel that my entire life is ahead of me. And with us looking after each other, body-wise, eating well, et cetera, you know that you're going to live a longer, healthier life. And yes, there's obviously life in moderation. I'm not saying don't have any fun at all. That's not what I'm saying. We're not telling you to suffer. Yeah, yeah. No one's telling you to suffer. It's life in moderation. Take that one holiday a year, but don't make it four. You've not made it. Who told you you can go on four holidays? Two days. You've not made it. My God is a powerful God. No, I know. But you know what I mean? I get it. I get it. I get it. Like, yeah, invest before you even do all these things, which is a hard pill. Even for me, I won't lie. Like, I would love. Okay, for some of us, we've had this information over and over and over. But the actions... Like, of course you take those small steps, but the actions, it's like, we've learned this thing. We need to, we need to practice, but the practicing bit is the habit now. It's a habit. Yeah. The thing. So to make it simple, I always tell everyone, if you don't have 13 million shillings in an investment account. 13. One, three. Or 30. One, three. One, three. 13 million shillings in an investment account. You should not be going on three holidays a year, even if they're small or big. Your goal, you'll be surprised. Please talk to this camera. So if you don't have 13 million shillings in an investment account, you shouldn't be going on three holidays a year. You shouldn't. You should be going on one and you can do something local, staycation, etc. Naivasha, maybe. Maybe Naivasha, you know, depending on how expensive. In Nairobi, it's expensive. Okay, Kenya. We have expensive destinations. We do, we do. But if you don't have 13 million shillings in your account. Honestly, it'll only take you two to three years to get there. And how quickly does the year go? We're already in July. We're already in July. Yeah. So you need to just be patient for maybe three years, then you get your 13 million. So if you're on a 300k salary, it's three years. I've done the math. Ah, okay. Yeah, it's three years. So you get to 13 million, then now you can... And this is an emergency or this is investment? No, this is investment. So your entire portfolio of 13 million. So you can have 100k, 200k in your... Or 300k in your emergency. Okay. And then the remaining is in your... And the thing is, you don't actually need to invest 13 million because the beauty about investments is that as soon as I put in my first 100,000 shillings, it's earning. So to get there, it grows really quickly. You just need to start. You just need to start. So in three years, you'll have your 13 million. I'm already there, girl. I'm not wasting time. Do, please take me through that math. Yeah. Okay, so let's do the math. You are saying 300,000. Yeah. So of course, that means that if I'm not taking holidays, et cetera, every month, I can probably save 50. So, no, sorry, not 50, 100K, because 60 is the maximum. Yeah. So you're doing 160 is the minimum, at least 20. Correct. Sorry. Yeah. 20, 60 is your minimum. So let's say we're not taking, we're not eating out. We're being mindful. We are living as if we are broke. That was the statement. It doesn't have to even be broke. I know. It was the statement. Yeah. Like quote unquote. Quote unquote broke. We've really suppressed almost. Yeah. But we are not suffering because we have 200,000. Yeah. To spend. To spend. That's a lot of money. Yeah. So you do that times 12. And you do it over a period of three years. That's 3.6 million. Yeah, because you've really summarized it. The three years feel like a short period. Yeah. But the thing is, so now in the year when you put in the first 100, 100, 100, 100, the 100 is growing, the 100 is growing. So your money is compounding. Now, the other thing what happens, and a lot of our clients tell us this, is that when they get to seeing that they're at 5 million, they save and invest even more. Oh, yeah. Because it's this gratification thing. You're like, oh, my God. I can do it. I can do it. The mindset shifts. And then obviously in that period of three years, we're hoping your salary is going up and or you've started a side hustle, your skill set. So you're not earning 300 most definitely. Now you're higher. Now you're higher. Where are they putting this 100? So they're putting it in the multi-asset fund. They're putting in the S&P 500. Okay. And both of them are generating good, solid, anywhere from 18 to 20% return. Wow. Wow. Can I, can I, I need, okay. I need to know, can I ask you since you're in the investment world, who, who are the most investors? Is it women or men? Like who, which is the, yeah. Yeah. So from the data on our platform, 48% are women and 52% are men. 48% of women come back more often and more regularly than men. So they're a better quality customer segment because they come back and they're disciplined, et cetera. As for the men, they are many, but they invest and they're done. They invest and they come back, they invest, they withdraw. You know, a man, just the psyche is like, oh, the friend, they'll go to the pub, not the pub, but the bar, and they'll talk about the next investor. And they're like, okay, let me take this money and try it because it's got a bigger return. Celeste, anything that is too good to be true is too good to be true. There is no in-between. There is no in-between. There is no in-between. And you know when people say, oh yeah, you're going to make 3,000% return in a year. It's not possible. Because if it was possible, everyone would be doing it. I would be doing it. Wealth is built with patience and consistency. The same way your career, oh my God, I don't mean to be so generalist, but Gen Zs have no patience with their career. I get CVs on my desk where they're now 10 to 15 years in their workplace, but they've only worked a year and a half everywhere. You've not learned anything. Because in order to learn and be really good at something, you have to put time and effort into it. And so now you're saying that you want this head of department role, but rightfully so, you've done 15 years in industry. But you have no skill set. You're not valuable to me. You've not learned anything about anything in a business because the longer you're there, the bigger the challenges get, the exposure gets bigger. You're involved in more conversations. So my advice is like spend two to three years, three years on average at a place before you move. Is it hard to convince women? I love that you said they become return customers. But is it hard to convince women to invest? No, I wouldn't say it's hard. And I don't think I think it's about education. So the way we convince people to invest is we'll show you what this could mean for you. And we also explain like the, you know, what is the risk here? And your relationship manager will always hold your hand. And we're very lucky over the last five years, markets have done really well. So, you know, the clients are just seeing positive numbers on their portfolio. You know, they're really happy. We have some clients who are, you know, we're doing really happy and it depends when you came in, et cetera. And I think that also is strong. But in our education, we also tell them, and this is a great way to think about investments. So let's take... The S&P 500, okay? What it is, it's a fund with the 500 largest companies in the U.S. And all of us Kenyans are using them. Johnson & Johnson, Coca-Cola, Samsung. Is there a minimum amount to get in? 5,000 shillings. Only? Only. Kenya shillings? 5,000 Kenya shillings. Only. And that's why I set up this platform. So on the Kebaba Multi-Asset Fund, it's 250,000 shillings as a minimum. Okay. The money market fund is 5,000 shillings, but even global products is 5,000 shillings. Why? Because we wanted to make it easy for everyone to come in. Okay. Okay. And obviously we recommend if you start with 5,000 shillings and you earn 20% on that, it doesn't feel like anything. So we, when we speak to our clients, we say, start with anything from 200. 100 to 250k whatever you can you need to know your financial muscle but this is why we're here so even that 5,000 shilling client we're saying okay how do we get you to a million first what changes do you need to make to get you to a million okay you've made the million now how do we help you get to 5 million shilling and then from 5 to 13 and there's a whole path you will walk with us but it's actually accessible it's actually doable you just need to yeah you just And this is why we're here, right? Yeah. And this is, yeah, this is where we are here to learn. To learn, yeah. So if you've said, if I invest the 5,000, we have 500 companies. Oh, sorry, the S&P 500. So the S&P 500 is the 500 largest companies in the U.S. And I like to say that that's defined as the stock market in the U.S. And my definition is slightly different. And I say that if we think. I think the stock market represents human progression. So if we think that companies in manufacturing now use AI to reduce their cost, and then somebody sitting in Kibera can get on Upwork and do graphic designer work, etc., and earn an income. Then what we expect is that those income is growing up, cost savings are happening, innovation is happening. So people are also consuming. So you're now producing at a much lower rate. People are consuming. So now the gentleman in Kibera can now buy his first laptop. They're contributing to growth because of consumption. And so we expect the stock market to go upwards. Yeah. And there's 500 companies and us Kenyans, we're using probably 60% of them, whether it's Google, Apple, Meta, TikTok. Before you even know it, you're using them. So why don't you become an owner? So let's stop consuming this. That's why you are talking about the phone. The phone. That's what I'm saying. Instead of just buying a Samsung or buying a... And we own a share like... Own the S&P 500. Okay. So, and then that S&P 500 is growing because of compounding. So you own, I own this, whatever, this Samsung or this iPhone. Because I just bought, I put, okay, okay. So now you own the company and the company is doing really well and you get, that's how the share price goes up. I love that. Yeah. So it's moving away from just consuming and saying, okay, how else can I make money? And then the S&P 500 year to date right now. So July, so if you had invested, let's say a million shillings last year in July, today it would be 1.25 million shillings. Yeah. How long? 250? It's gone up by 25% year-to-date. I checked the numbers this morning. 150? Okay, why am I not doing this? No, but it's because of education. And then also in that year today, in the year from July to now, there's been like in June markets came down so that 1 million that had grown to 100 and 250, let's say, it came down to 200. But the idea is that you just need to know that investing is for the long term. We don't care about the noise. Because that's what it needs to do. That's the function of a market. It goes up and down, up and down. Take the Safaricom stock. It goes up and down, up and down, up and down. It's only when you sell is when you're crystallizing a profit or a loss. And so if it's going down, just wait, put more money in. Is it a high? So it's not a high risk, high return? No, the S&P 500 is the most balanced investment you can have because it is balanced by not putting all your eggs in one basket. So I'll give you an example. You can go out there and buy the Apple stock itself. That's putting all your eggs in one basket because you're buying every single thing. You're putting all your money into Apple. But instead, what I say you do is go buy the S&P 500. You're putting the same money, but into loads of different companies. Google, Apple, Samsung. So if Apple's not doing well one day, the rest of the companies are doing well. So you're diversifying. And that's why we need people like you because I wouldn't, honestly, I wouldn't know. Or rather, that time, instead of creating content here, I'd be busy looking for. But the thing is, at Endovu, you'll get a relationship manager who says, what are your goals, Celeste? What do you want to do in life? Okay. And you're like, I just want passive income. They're like, great, we'll build you a, we'll start to get you to the 13M. Let's work together. These are the four things I think you should hold. This is how they've done. And then you say, okay. And that's the journey to wealth, right? That's the journey to wealth. Oh my God, I have a number in my head for myself. Everyone should have their number. What does it mean to be financially free? I know mine. And very soon we shall get there. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Through investing. When would you love to retire? Now I'm curious. So I never want to retire, but I'm 37. So by 40, I have my goal of what I would like to be. And whether it's above and below, we'll be quite close to it. And then after that. Yeah, and then I want to do the things that I love, which I'll always work because I'm a workaholic, as you know. But yeah. Is there a mistake you see professionals, especially professional women? Yes. I love women. I love women too. Yeah. Doing when it comes to their money. Because women have money, but are there... Yeah. So I love women. So we'll research, research, research. So you've heard of S&P 500. They've done their homework. They're investing in money market funds. Investing in money market. Yeah. But they won't take the leap. And so you leave money on the table because you're saying, OK, I've done all my homework. I understand it. Theoretically, I understand. And my advice to those type of women is just put a little bit. Just because you don't... Until you don't start investing, you will never know how it works. You will never learn. So start small. And this is why, like, the S&P 500 is 5,000 points. That's the nails. That's when you go do your... Well, nails, manicure, pedicure. That's nails. That's nails. Yeah. That's nails. You know, just try. And why will they... Okay, is it the fear like we just have as women? It's... You know what it is? We, as naturally, have been... brought up psychologically to be non-risk takers. Yeah, we are not risk takers for sure. Men on the other hand are, they're like, oh yeah, sure, I'll try and they'll go big. Whereas women, we're a bit more cautious, rightfully so. You know, everything that we grew up knowing, seeing fathers and, you know, relationships, etc. So, yeah, but my thing is with women, and I had a client recently I spoke to and she said, she knew everything. I was like, oh great, so where have you invested? And she said, no, I only have money market and fixed deposit. And I was like, that's most of us. That's most of women. Yeah. But you're leaving. So if a money market is giving you 10%, and a special fund is giving you 20% or S&P is giving you 20%, you're leaving 10% on the table. You'd get to your goal much faster. Thank you so much, Ratika. You're welcome. I feel like, okay, yeah, thank you. We should take that step of faith. Like, we should stop. We should try as much as we can. To be risk takers. Because women are doing big things. We are. But I don't know why we just have our money seated and fixed. I think we love seeing them zeros on our bank accounts. Yeah. Yeah, look at this. This is how much money I have in my account. But you can do that on actually the Ndovu app. Oh, we can also be seeing the zeros. You see the zeros plus your profit going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah. Okay. Uh-huh. Anything else, guys, you feel like I need to ask? Oh, yeah. I remember the question. I remember the question. Uh-huh. There's something you mentioned on everything. Like, honestly, you said, I don't think I'll quote it correctly, but you said it's all fake, what we see on social media. Yeah. And you said it with so much confidence. I'd love to know why. Yeah. I think from what angle. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting. I mean, I. I mean, I don't know if you've ever gone through this. This is a personal, I noticed myself doing this the other day. So I don't have enough time to go on social media generally. I just don't have enough time. There's so much going on in the day. But I had some time and I was looking at, so a couple of nights in a row, I was looking at Instagram and I was like, oh my God, these women are so beautiful, you know? And they are. Yeah, they are. And then you start noticing patterns, like the same nose, the same jawline, like perfect skin, no, like, you know, eyes and you have a bit of fine lines, but you know, and I was like, oh, maybe I should get Botox. Okay. To also look like them. Not to look like them because they think that's the standard, right? So, but it's fake. It's not real. They're not aged. They're not aged properly. Yeah. I'm. I'm old enough to recognize my brain thought pattern and I'm aware that this is what I'm doing. Now imagine you go online and an age mate of yours, you're working really hard, you're doing all the right things, but this age mate of yours is like posting a really fancy car and like going out here and spending all this money. Just question it. Where did the money come from and is it real? Because it's not. If that was the case, all of us would be doing that and doing it confidently. Either they're wearing or spending all their money. And in 10 years time, they're going to have no, they will not, they won't have an emergency fund. They won't be where they need to be because they didn't make the sacrifices. It's just, yeah, it's just not real. I love the way you've said it because it helps most of us. I think most of us, the thing for comparison, when you're scrolling and you're like. We are the same age. You own a home. You drive this. You're going for three holidays a year, four holidays. I love that you've said it's fake. It can't be real. Unless like they've inherited money, which then it's real. But we don't know about that. Yeah. You know, unless their parents set up, you know, I always tell my dad, I wish you started investing for me when I was young. I've started for my kids. By the time they're 24, they're going to be dollar millionaires. Yeah. Unless they inherit a trust fund like that. Great. But no, it's not, right? And so I have a friend, she's in photography. She travels a lot. So if you didn't know what she does professionally, she gets invited to all these lodges and she does all this work. She's working. But of course, she's posting it as if like she's on holiday. Of course. Because she's like, girl, no one needs to know. So you think this girl, oh my God. But it's not real. So you have to be realistic. If everyone was making that kind of cash. I wouldn't be sitting here, guys. Yeah, you would not. And I know how hard you work. We talked about it offline. Yeah, so okay. So what I'm trying to say is that we need to normalize understanding that we work hard, yes, for a short period of time. And then we work smart because we invest so that in our 30s, well, I'm a bit old, but in our 40s and 45s, you can live that life that you want to live. But it has to be realistic. You have to put in the hard work. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Even for us, maybe just to say, even for us content creators, you're invited by this hotel, so you're working. But then you'll see me post this month this hotel, next month this hotel. Then you'll think, why is she always traveling? I am working. This is work. Yeah. This is not even a, in fact, there's a paid partnership or there's a tagging, tagging ad. That's work. It's work. So, the pressure. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think like going back to that, you know, comparing yourself, that basic standard in my mind, I was like, oh, that's what I should be looking like, or I should be living this kind of lifestyle. Those things don't make you, yes, they make you happy to an extent, but when you come in closer to your 40s. It's a lot more. It's the impact you leave. You mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, like even if one person listens to this and learn something, that's really true joy. I know it sounds cliche. It sounds cliche. And I keep on telling them, I'll keep on sitting here every Wednesday, as long as there's one person today who is going to invest in Dovu with 5000. And maybe later tell me, Celeste, you know, three years right now I have. 13 million or 10 or 5 million. I'll keep on doing it. It gives me so much fulfillment. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think that's what's lost with social media. Yeah. Yeah. And now there's, and I think, you know, in some countries they've banned social media for under 16, like Australia. Oh, wow. I really wish the government would do that because kids are so malleable. There's somebody externally teaching your kids internal values of the family that are not, I mean, my kids will not be on social media. Wow. If you look at, I don't know. Mine on the other hand. They're on social media. They're on social media, yeah. No, but they're not using it. Yeah, yeah, they're not using it. Yeah, they're not using it. They're not consuming it. They're not consuming it. It's different. Yeah, true. But yeah, I mean, would you be comfortable? No, no, no, no, no. Because even you ask yourself, how am I willing to listen to this person who I've never met and trust them? And leave my mum who was telling me this. Okay, it depends. It depends. If it's bull trust like Celestine, I think there's a bit of, if you're grown, you can reason. But you see, for a 14-year-old and a 13-year-old, I'd listen to everyone. She said, she's telling us, she's telling us. Exactly. So the founder of Snapchat, the biggest social media channel in, I think kids use it now. He doesn't, his kids, four kids, none of them are on Snapchat. No, no. And then, uh, in, in a podcast, I mean, I don't know him, but I was listening. He was like, oh yeah, they're not on Snapchat, but Snapchat has the highest mental health rating for all social media platforms. So why aren't you kids on it? Yeah. Do you see where you're looking? Balance. Balance. Yeah. Yeah. Balance. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming. I'd love you to leave maybe a word for someone who's investments or wealth. They feel like they are so far, you know? Yeah. I love that we've talked on the mindset shift, but there's also someone who feels like... They're so far. This thing is so far. I know I'm 35. I know I'm 37. But these things, are they really? Yeah. So the only thing I could say is that you've heard this really old saying, the best time to plant a tree was 100 years ago, but the next best time is tomorrow. And so with investing, what you're doing is you're planting a tree into your future. Get started, whether it's 5,000 shillings, 15,000, whatever it might be, so you can learn and be conscious about what do you want from life so you can plan towards it. Just have a plan, get started. It might feel so big, but break down your goals into small, small goals. At least you've got started and then naturally those habits will form. Yeah, because the goal is to form habits. And then there's something I'm taking from you today. You need to have a figure. Yes. Yeah, you need to have a figure. Write it down. Figure it out. You know, I want to send my kids to school. I want to go on three holidays a year. There's university that is coming. Yeah. What does that number look like? And even if it scares you, that's great. That means you have a number. You know what you need to work towards. It's scary. And then you work backwards. Yeah. So you can't just work without a goal or a figure. So even if today the only thing you're going to pick from this episode is coming up with Please, just come up with a figure. Now you'll work backwards on how much you need to save. Because I feel most of us, we save blindly. We just save. So you save 500 shillings a day, you don't even know what are you saving to. But actually, that's a really good goal. Why don't you just save 500 shillings a day? But you see, you need to have a goal as well. Correct. But what I'm saying is, if you save 500 shillings a day at the end of the month, that's 6,000 bob. Invest in the S&P 500, in gold and copper every month. That is going to continue growing. And then you'll say, okay, now I'm going to do a thousand. Okay. Yeah. But it's still something. It gets you started. It gets you started. It forms the habit. It forms the habit. Yeah. Thank you so much, Rathika. Thank you for your time. Yeah. I know you're busy. Guys, getting her was not easy. And I'm so grateful that you found time. No, and I'm glad you had me. So thank you so much for having me. Guys, until next week. Bye-bye. Bye.