How to Improve Your Freestyle as an Adult – Olympian's Advice with Sharon Van Rouwendaal

Welcome to the Effortless Swim podcast. Sharon, welcome back to the podcast. It's been a couple of months since I've had you on, since your Olympic victory. And you've made a big transition in that time to now stepping away from the competition side and going into more coaching. So I want to dig into that and how that transition has been and some of those things that you've learned over the last six plus months, having made that transition. So welcome to the podcast, first of all. Thank you for having me again. Yeah, I think this is the third time now. So it's great to have you back on. And we're actually running a trip in the Maldives in October, a long-distance swimming trip, so we'll get to explore some of the beautiful coral reefs and islands and atolls and things around there, which will be fantastic. So I'm looking forward to meeting you in person there, which will be great. And then working with the swimmers who are coming along there. But first thing I want to jump into is since you've made that transition to coaching, what have been some of the key things that you've had to pick up having gone from that competitive swimmer to now having to teach the stuff that you were able to do yourself? Basically, the main thing is that I have really like a lot of patience for my swimmers and I try to explain it as simple as possible. So there was this, for example, there was this thing that in Rio, when I won the Olympics, I had this hand that like the elbow was touching the water first and then this hand came. And my French coach was saying, yeah, you have this little hand that comes and I didn't know how to fix it. And then my German coach, Bernd, he said, well, just rotate more. And then basically because I didn't know how to fix it myself, he just made me, well, explain it really easy. It's in your rotation. And so I look at those little stuff. People think, oh, my hand is not going into the water. How do I do that? But it is by rotating the other shoulder more in the water that you can lift. So I always try to give examples of my experience and then explain it as simple as possible to my swimmers. And that's, I think, the thing they like the most about my coaching. There's two things that stand out there. First one is keeping it simple. That took me a very long time to learn when I started coaching. I would give too much information and it would be too complicated. And it's just it's very hard to do more than one thing. So if you can keep things simple, that's I think that's such an important thing for coaching. And the second thing there is that you're not addressing what seems like the obvious issue, which is, say, like, let's say elbows entering first. The root, the cause of it was lack of rotation. So it's actually going back a step to the actual cause of it and not the symptom. So that, I think, is, again, a really important skill when it comes to coaching is actually how do you identify what's the actual cause? So we're going to fix it long term. Yeah, to go a step back, you know, like go a step back like they always think this is the problem, but it's like that's not the problem. That's not the thing we're going to fix. We're going to fix it by doing another in a different way. And it's and the thing that stands out to me as well is it's very swimming can be very simple, but it can also be very complicated. But when you put it down to the core fundamentals and the way I see that is like a good head and body position, let's just get horizontal. Then we need to make sure we rotate, make sure we recover properly, and then we can work on our catch and pull. And obviously, breathing's got to be in there as well. But like you sort of can boil it down to those couple of things. And if you take that sort of approach, then it is for me, that's been the easier way to it to figure out what's the what's the cause of some of these issues that we're seeing in the stroke. Yeah. Did you have a certain sort of way that you got taught from your coaches or is this stuff that you've had to figure out as you've gone along since you started coaching? Yeah, well, I figured it out, of course, with the German coach. My Filip Luka was more of a coach that was tough and just swim, you know, and Bernd Berkamp was more the coach that was very perfectionist. So I would always be scared, not scared, but I was like, oh, he's looking, so I need to be like there's one thing that stood out that I learned from him was when I arrived that it was that rotation problem. And when I arrived, he said, but you can finish your stroke much longer, you can swim much longer. And at some point. So there was this triceps push that I teach people now, like you can go out here, but you have to rotate to go out if you really want to push that triceps up. And he was standing there. And I remember my first four months, my triceps were on fire. But if you just correct, so I'm not even when people I have clients coming at home, I don't even film them on the water yet, so I don't even focus on the catch, the pool, anything on the water. The main thing that they will learn in one session is that their push is like 30 percent longer than before. So they already gained maybe, let's say, 10 centimeters in their stroke by just rotating and like doing a longer triceps push. And that's what I got. It gave me the feeling in Germany where I was trained with parents that I have to I have all this. I have these long arms. Why am I not using those last 10 centimeters of my push? Why won't I do that? But then I also discovered you have to rotate to do that. If I don't rotate, I have this I have this click in my arm. So I always rotate enough push in the back and then you can come back. And so those are the things that people are really happy with. When I teach them, it's they see the difference in one session and they are then they have to focus on. I gave them technique exercise where to focus on in their sessions and they are trying to do that. And if they come back the next session, then we will see what we can do underwater or what we can do with the hands. If the hands is like this, it's easy to fit because you want to have straight. So those are all my things that I learned as a swimmer and I experienced myself that my triceps were burning. So that's a good sign. But that's that's the basics. I really like to teach those parts rotation and longer stroke. Yeah, one one thing. So I had a clinic a week and a half ago it was. And one of the ladies said to me, like, I'm so my arms, just my shoulders just get so tired. My legs get pretty tired as well. And so I just I just I'm working too hard. And so we filmed her, did the analysis. And like first thing, she's just swimming so flat and just the amount of effort you've got to put in to get any sort of distance in the stroke. Well, you can't get much distance firstly, but just the amount of effort you've got to put into the arms to pull yourself through the water instead of getting into a more streamlined position and getting 10, probably 20 centimetres for her. It's it's no surprise that that swimmer is feeling the way that they're feeling when you see what they're they're doing. And I actually got a message from her this morning, actually. And she said that I knew something was wrong in the stroke, but I just I just couldn't put my finger on it. And then when I looked at the footage, I thought, OK, there's a lot of stuff wrong here, but thanks for breaking it down and making it making it simple. And one of the things you mentioned was that that change initially with the triceps. Right. So you didn't have the specific strength there to hold it initially, but you built it up over time. That's the thing with with the stroke changes is sometimes it can actually feel more difficult and possibly even slower initially, but ultimately it's going to be faster and it's going to feel much better once that becomes the new habit. And you've got that swim specific strength. Yeah. Yeah. So I remember in the sand when I won the Olympics, I could switch to sort of what I call Philippe stroke a little bit like the French coach stroke, where I go a little bit shorter in the back, more frequent. And then with the current, I would do my long and easy stroke. So when those people leave my session, they swim the same pace, but much easier, which can make them improve the faster pace at some point. I mean, if frequency would have won, I think the Dochi was third at the Olympics, she would have won the race, but frequency doesn't win. It's a proper like a longer. I mean, I have much more power, of course, because I get those longer strokes, but I also save energy for at the end when I want to put my frequency in, I go much faster and you have people, for example, try it each day when you have one frequent. So I put my pool really, really slow and I say now you have to go very like a slow motion swing for you. Very long strokes. And they can't. So they do like their normal pace. They stop swimming and then you have normal pace again. It's a slow stroke. And so sometimes it takes a step back. So I tell them, imagine walking and doing your groceries every day, that's your level two walk, right? So level two to level three walk. But no, now we're going to do groceries, groceries with very big steps and very slow. They're going to get tired. They're going to create muscle. So I want to go that step back by doing sort of a DPS stroke. And then they can build it up to that level five or some five, eventually with a nicer stroke. Yeah, it's a good way to approach it. And especially you've got a pool where you can change the speeds. What's the brand of pool that you've got? It's called Swim Intelligent Pool. So they are based in the Netherlands for now, I think, maybe in Germany as well. But yeah, it's I have the Olympic version, so it can go to fifty five seconds. But if you do that, you could surf in my pool and almost water. But basically, when I swim myself, I put it around one twenty two to one, like I don't go any faster. And then you can even put something and pedals to make it. Sometimes it's quite boring because I mean, I'm looking at the ground all the time. But I put on some music on the side if I have my breaks and drink something. But it is really nice because you don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to take your car, do the changing in a changing room, talk to people like you just do your quick thing and then you can work. It's like being able to go out for a run from your front door. Yeah. You can do the same thing swimming from your back door. So, yeah, that's that's a good way to do it. Have you ever tried with headphones before? Because I've had I've got a friend who uses them. She's training for the Capri to Napoli swims, 36Ks, and she's doing most of her training with them and she loves them. I just tried them on and they're really good in terms of the quality. But I contacted a brand if they could send me one and then but they didn't answer properly. So I was like, OK, I'll buy one soon. But first, I'm trying with the radio on the side, just using music in my breaks, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's almost a hurdle I don't want to it's a step I don't want to take because then I feel like I might become reliant on it. Yeah, that's just like. Yeah, but there's another thing that I make my swimmers do is what they don't realize is that the warming up is really important. And that's because I had a shoulder injury since December 2015. And I've got like a rip in my biceps and it is still there. And as you can hear, not everything is fine in that shoulder. So if I in the plane, I wouldn't sit properly. I have sometimes to click it so that it's like it seems weird, but then it hurts less. Or something. And since I am in Germany, I discovered how to warm up properly and how to position myself. So in the water, basically in France, I was swimming with my shoulder like this. So this would be tense and the shoulder would be to the front this way. And in Germany, I learned how to fix my shoulder to the back. But you need to create back muscle. You need to work on your. Yeah, basically your shoulder blades. And I wasn't doing that in the gym. And so we did all those drylands before. And even the last one and a half year with my fisio rink, we were doing rotation exercise because I noticed when I rotate more in the water, I get less tired and I get less lactate. So my arms can go on longer. So that's the difference maybe of 2024 where I won the World's End Olympics because of the rotation. But so I give them this task to look in the mirror at themselves. And I say, so show me your stroke, show me what you're doing in the water. And then I get these people that like they show me this, they basically show me stuff like this. And I'm like that really wide. If you can't do it on dry land, you can't do it in the water. So what you want to do is and then I tell them like the basics, like I said, that I explain easy is that I would say that, OK, you follow your right, like your right eye is following your right hand. So this stays on this right. And this one stays in this line of your leg and then doesn't come over the middle line of your body. Basically, I explain it really easy. I love that exercise because often at clinics, let's say someone's recovery, let's say they're coming over and they haven't got the elbow pointing up towards the sky. It's low pointing behind them. So it's very sort of flat and low recovery. I get into them, I say, all right, let's show me your recovery of the water. And we're just standing on the pool deck and they show the exact same recovery that they're doing in the water. And then we try and adjust it and manipulate it so that they're coming over in that better position. So their underarm is showing, their elbows pointing up and just trying to get them to make that change out of the water. And then if someone's trying to demonstrate the stroke out of the water, but they're super wide, they're not reaching forwards, they're not rotating, there's a good chance that they're not going to be doing that in the water. And so, yeah, I think it's a very, especially in the mirror, it's a really good way just to to show someone what they're probably doing. And then if they've got a few key positions to kind of move through, one of those that you sort of touched on a bit before is like that, that initial reach up here, another coach explained as reaching for the cookie jar. It's like we're trying to just get that cookie jar just on the top shelf. We want to get up in that position first. And then when we pull through, another coach I learned it from was we want to trace this outside line of the body, pretty much what you just you mentioned there. But those couple of things, like real key things that if you can do that, then you're going to be getting a long way with those sorts of things. Yeah. And what I also do with the, I give, if I come to a club visit, I say, no, we also do the dry. So I don't just come for a swim, we do dry. I give them like these tear bands, these elastics. And then I show them how to do stuff. So, for example, that triceps push that they don't do in swimming, I show it with a band and I say, well, you push out, you push out like this. And then I try to make them feel what they should do on land to do in the water. So that always comes in a package because I don't believe I had a client last time that I was giving online coaching. And I said, but you have to do your drylands. If you don't do your drylands, we don't work together anymore because that's part of my philosophy. My philosophy is that you need to do your dryland before any time that you have off and you want to do a little quick resistance workout. That's when you do that and you have to do it. And so we stopped working together basically because you can make the time for it. And I said, no, then then your technique doesn't improve. It's part of the technique process. Yeah, and it doesn't need to be a whole lot either when you're doing the TheraBand stuff, like it doesn't need to be hours and hours, it's just a little bit before you get into the water. At Effortless Swimming, our mission is simple, make swimming more enjoyable, whether you're training for your next race, swimming for fitness or just love being in the water. We're here to help you swim faster, smoother and with more confidence. And one thing that can make or break a swim is your goggles. If you've ever struggled with foggy lenses mid-session, you know how frustrating it can be. That's why we created the Effortless Swimming HydroClear Anti-Fog Goggles for long lasting, crystal clear vision. I've been using them myself and the difference is night and day. I'm not the only one. Deborah swam 36 kilometres down the Derwent River and the entire time, her vision stayed crystal clear. No fog, no frustration, just an uninterrupted swim. So what makes the HydroClear goggles different? 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So if you're not happy with the goggles for any reason, you can simply return them for a refund. Don't let foggy goggles ruin another swim. Try HydroClear today and experience clear vision from start to finish. And in terms of the clients that you've been working with, are there any particular types of sets that you've been giving them that they weren't necessarily doing, but they should be doing and you've seen good results with it? I did a speed change. It's so basically they couldn't do like, so if I give, say I give a five times 300, I ask for zone 1, zone 2, zone 3, zone 4, zone 5 and it's always the part they're going to do zone 4 or zone 3 already too fast. Well, zone 1 is already too fast, but their max is going to be like their zone 3 to 4. But the last one should be the fastest one and not the middle one. So they can't control what they're doing. So basically I teach them how to go a step back, like I said, with longer strokes. And then I really write down, okay, this should be like slow motion swimming. Second part, level two should feel like you're getting more into your normal rhythm. Three is like frequency, higher frequency. And then level four is starting to kick more with the higher frequency. And five is just like give everything you got frequency kick and then sprint at the end or something. So I marked down behind the levels what they have to do, like steps and then we get there. So that's like, and then I also give them sometimes a kick set because like for 100 kick is already a set for them because the most of the triathletes or open water swimmers, they, sometimes I coach people and it does nothing to us, right? It's just your normal walking routine, your swimming routine. So I give them kick sets or technique sets. All of a sudden they get the hard breathing again. So see, this is where you create lactate, this is where you create your cardio. So you need to do kick sets. And so sometimes I give them like faster kick sets or like some three kick sets a little bit. And then they all tell me that they're, the last one, they can't do it fast because they'll lactate before it. Their legs hurt from four times 100. And I used to do five times 400 kick sets. We did twice on the camps, we did twice a week, huge kick sets, huge kick. Yeah, that's, we used to do an 800 time trial every second, every, every second week, I think we were doing it, an 800 time trial of kick. And so I used to do it as a, an 800 medley kick just to mix it up. And I was doing medley at the time, but man, that was, that was hard work. Got like, it helped so much for the 400 medley that I was training for. And I mean, in a, in a triathlon, you've got a wetsuit on, people are not necessarily going to be kicking a lot, but if you lose the kick, then you lose the rest of your stroke. So that kick still has to be effective and done well so that you can, but to me, the way I see it is it's like, it gives you this grounding effect. It's like when you throw a ball, you've got your feet planted on the ground. So you've got something firm to generate that kind of power from. And it's the same thing with the kick. It's, it helps you rotate sides. It gives you that counterbalance and then it really gives you something to derive that power from. But if you kick, if your legs are just kind of doing their own thing, you're going to have a hard time making use of your upper body. Yeah. I call it a dance. Mine is not great, but you use mine for a few times, but I mean, I am doing, I am, I don't know how I learned it, but I am an Olympic champion with it, but yeah, I, I crossed them and, uh, yeah, I don't know. And so we are at the end of my career, like the last four years, you're trying to fix it in a sprint, but I can swim 26 seconds on a 50, I think if I use it, but I didn't want to use them. So, but I was really, really good in paddle swimming and arm swimming back in the days, but then I got my shoulder injury. So then the solution in France was let's do 6K kick sets with shorter starting time. So I basically was swimming all the sessions with kick for three or four weeks because I couldn't swim on my shoulder. And then I got really good in kicking. So then in Germany we did those kick sets and I would, I think my best thousand meter was a 131 average, which is a 132 average in kicking. But then you see me race. I don't use them. I don't like, I don't use them, but there is a, um, for me it's like a dance. So it's the opposite way. So this one kicks and that shoulder goes there. So it would be a really nice dance. And then my coach was always saying, use the method and then you can, you know, you can win. And I was always like lactating too much to use them. But I kick more, of course, but yeah, I can do it. But I would advise people to, uh, to learn it in a proper way and not my way. And I must also say like the last videos of my swimming career are the ones that I look at it as like, okay, this is Sharon swimming the best that she can with injuries in her body, let's say. So now I would be, um, I remember those videos you used once in a bikini, I was swimming with a really high catch. Now my angle would be a little bit more wide because of the injury. I didn't want to get too close to the body because then the shoulder hurts. So I wanted to not in a straightened way, but it was easier for me to hold it in a like not 90 degree way, but more like 100 or 110 degree way. Well, that I remember that the video you're talking about, it's from quite a few years back, I think that your, your catch, I think it was on your right arm was like, it was, it was, I've never seen anything like it. It was so, like the angle was, was unbelievable. That's a problem. It's a problem. So I would say now I prefer when people, I don't like the close to the body angle at all. I like the, a little bit bigger angle. So 92 more, not straight, of course, only if they're sprinters, but that would be also the more like healthy angle in my opinion. So that's also things I give because of my experience. I give a healthy way of coaching. I think it's not like a lifestyle coach, but you need to do your warmups if you don't want to get injured. Or, and, and, and if you want to be coached by you as well, you got to make sure you do your warmups. So, yeah, of course. The, in terms of the catch, like I, I've had a couple of swimmers that have either come to clinics or sent videos through and they are, they've been over doing the catch. Like they're thinking that more is better and you know, if I can get it to 90 degrees or whatever, then I'm going to be swimming better. But for most people, they don't have the range of motion through their shoulders or the mobility or the strength really. So it's, it's that compromise between a better angle, which is more vertical, but they have a lack of strength there compared to something that might not be as good, but they can apply a lot more power. They can use their bigger, stronger back and shoulder muscles through there. And so for 99% of people, similar to what you mentioned is that's where we need to, that's where they, they need to be is somewhere that's sustainable. They're not going to injure themselves and they can apply that power and use those stronger muscles. That's the, that's where most people should be. And, uh, and not try and not try to replicate where you are because you are 0.01%. No, I wouldn't say, but what you can do is that I make them push my hand down on dry mat like this. And then I explain when they're here. Now they should try and pull with the lats and not swim here in the back. So I explain in phases, like this is just the part where you feel the water, you're not even pushing. Then there's the part where you do your catch. And then when you pass the catch, you need to start pulling with the lats. So I make them feel the muscle on dry land. So that's why I always say dry land plus swimming, because then you can feel what you're doing and you can put it into the water or in your stroke. Yeah, it's a really good way to, to approach it. And the other thing there too, just in terms of the catch is, and I'd be curious to get your opinion on this. Like what I've talked about in videos before is that's sort of a shoulder sort of down and back is when you can be strongest through here. But sometimes that can get mistaken as you should keep your shoulders down and back the whole time. But to be able to get into a good catch, you actually need to let your shoulder blade slide up along your rib cage and your shoulder to come up to be able to get into the catch. And then here is when it will sort of come, come down and back. Like that's, that's what I try and get across. Is that what you would teach? Is that what you sort of say? Or how do you explain it differently? So when I was swimming, I had scratches in my neck. So like the, you know, the here because of the swimsuit. So that means that when I was swimming, I was touching with the swimsuit, the shoulder a little bit. So that's, I mean, I think it's a good sign, but of course doesn't mean that you have to do this. It's a different way. So now I say to people that they should be as long as possible in the water and the shoulders dryland exercises. You start by, so if you give them a external rotation, it starts by step one, shoulders back. That's the position they start and then they do the, the shoulder rotation, the external rotation. And so when they swim, they should do their shoulders back as well. And then when they go to the front, it's because of the rotating and then the shoulder is allowed to touch the head at some point. If they, they have a swimsuit, they would scratch right now. And then they rotate back. But what I wouldn't recommend is what I did with that catch that this, I wouldn't recommend it. So this goes to the front. And so that's why I give a lot of backstroke to my swimmers as well. I did a lot of backstroke because it gives you this swing rotation automatically in backstroke and it opens up these muscles, which where my injury is so that you get this stretched out basically before you swim freestyle. So I did a lot of back free sets, just mixing because then I got the stretch and then I can swim longer freestyle. So that would be my opinion on those shoulders and how to get long to the front is also that push in the back. So you go, you don't only go searching to the front here. No, it's that backhand also normally is helping you. But I also noticed all the Dutch people I coach, they breathe one and two. So I grew up in France where they teach me one and three. So I have this opposition way of swimming. And you, of course, you have a lot of people doing the catch-up way of swimming. That's not like this. So then you have to think like you have to kick more to get there to the front, probably when they did the catch-up stroke. Yeah, with the finish of the stroke, if I'm analyzing someone's video quite often, we've got to address the back end of the finish of their stroke, because if they're coming, let's say they're probably flat through the hips, right? So they're not coming out properly. So firstly, we've got to get the hips on the side. We've got to open up there and finish the stroke on the way back. Go towards your upper thigh. Then you'll be able to get enough reach and get onto the side. And then you'll have that length. So yeah, it's that like, where do we need to start here? Quite often it is chicken or the egg. It's like we need to figure out what comes first, because sometimes it's the opposite for a different person. But for me, that's quite enjoyable trying to figure out what's the actual cause of it and just trying to go through their video in different angles and figure out where's this bottleneck coming from in their stroke. And once we remove that bottleneck, then that will let everything flow. Because if you're swimming well with everything in time and everything in place, then the catch comes a lot easier. Whereas if you're doing things incorrectly, it's very difficult to get a good catch. So that's why good swimmers like yourself, it's beautiful to watch because everything's in sync and in rhythm. And so to get there, sometimes there's this bottleneck that we need to remove or identify and then work on fixing. That's like when they do open water swimming and they sight, or when they do general swimming and they have a hip problem, so the hips sink. Then I always look at the head first, because their head is basically like this, and then your hips sink automatically. Although when you make a double chin when you're swimming, it already lifts the hip, for example. So I always look to step back, step back, and then like I said before, so I don't even look at the hip problem, I'll just look at the face first or the head first. Yeah, so it's all, yeah, I really like it. And also there's one thing that I think a lot of coaches say that they're not allowed to rotate the hips or move the hips. Which is correct, because they're not allowed to do like a snake in the water, like, you know. But they're allowed to do like first, the step one is hip, and I call it like hip, ribs, shoulder. Hip, ribs, shoulder. And that should be at some point when you're a professional swimmer, it's like it's a one thing. But for amateurs or people who want to get better, it's just you explain it, hip, ribs, shoulder, hip, ribs, shoulder. So they open up the hip first, and it's something that I teach myself only the last two years with my physio. I had to do it on a ball, like a Swiss ball, and then I had to open up with my hip. But that's where you start opening up in the water, hip, ribs, and then shoulder. So there's a lot of stuff I learned also the last two years that I'm already giving to people now. So I wish I knew so much when I started swimming, or when I was 20, or when I was going to the Olympics. But now I'm happy to share it with, yeah, with everybody. Just going back to that exercise on the, so you're lying down on a Swiss ball, where, like, can you explain that exercise? So basically, you're in this sort of plank position, you know, like you have your, yeah, your hands on the ground, basically, and this ball is under my hips. And then I need to move that ball with my hip, and then go to the side. So it's basically, I'm having this, yeah, I am on my hands, ball under me, my feet are touching the ground. So I'm basically like this, I'm not in a real plank, I'm like this, and then I need to open up. And I wasn't allowed to open up my hand first, so I had to open up my hip, and then my ribs, and then my shoulder. And in Doha, we tried it for the first time, just two days before the race, I couldn't do it. So the last six, seven months, towards parents, we just started working on that, basically. I remember seeing you post videos with, I think, that exercise, or something similar. So that makes a lot of sense now. And so the main thing there was to get the sequencing of those, yeah, of those joints or bones. Yeah, working in the right order, is that right? Yeah, so I wasn't rotating enough, and it made me relax it more. So get more mobility in my hip, or more mobility in here. I started every morning by sitting on the ball and checking if my rotation is enough. So if I go over the midline, the back, that's enough. If I didn't have enough rotation, I did all the exercise on my program. But I think soon I will share it more on my Instagram, and maybe the mobility, like show a real mobility exercise for rotation. I think that can be a good thing to share. I shared it in this, like, bubble of Doha, where we started, on my Instagram. But I think I should make a reel of it. It'd be fun. I think that'd be good. Glad to see it. Yeah. Well, Sharon, thanks so much for being on the podcast again. And as I said, in October, looking forward to meeting in person. And for those that are listening, if you want to jump in for the long distance camp, there's a minimum of $145 per 100 for 3Ks in terms of the pacing. And in terms of how much swimming, there's between $4,000 to $10,000 available for swimming each day. So if you've got any questions, just send us a message through the website. And I think there's five or six slots left there at the moment. Yeah, looking forward to that. And it's going to be good fun, beautiful place to swim. And also, it's going to be some good coaching and a good group of people. So yeah, thank you very much for being on the podcast. And looking forward to October. Yeah, me too. Thank you.