I spent a day learning what makes a GREAT bowl of Pho

Pho might be the most iconic dish to come out of Vietnam, but depending on where you are, it can taste completely different. This month, I'm going all in on Saigon-style pho, trying as many bowls as I can to really understand what makes it work here. Today, I'm linking up with my friend Kai, somebody who's been making pho for years, then heading back to his kitchen to break down what actually goes into a great bowl of pho. Hi, my name is Kai. I'm the executive chef here at Prompt Steakhouse Saigon, and I've been cooking over 20-plus years throughout my career. I started because my family, we have a pho restaurant when we first come to America, and I think by chance, I grew up in the restaurant business, and over time, it kind of grew on me, and I just fall in love with cooking pho and enjoy it. Kai, how are you? Good, how are you? Good. Let's go get some pho. Let's go. What are you gonna get? Pho gầu gân bò riêng. Give me two bowls of pho gầu gân bò riêng. Gầu gân bò riêng? Yes, and two glasses of iced tea. Thank you. That looks good. Oh, yeah. Thank you. What's your first impression of this broth? A lot of umami. Yeah. The depth is, you know, the depth. Yeah. How do you think they're achieving all that umami? I mean, they've been doing it for so many years, and just use good brisket, good bowl, and it will give you that flavor, and just the longer they cook it, the better the pho broth come out, you know? What is it that you think that they do well here? Consistency. Yeah. You know, for me, anytime I go to a place, they've been around for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years, and they still keep doing the same thing. You know, like Bruce Lee say, right? Yeah. I'm not afraid of a man who kick 1,000 way. I'm afraid of a man who one kick 1,000 times. Yeah. Same thing going with cookie. Mmm. The noodle is good. Very smooth. Mmm. Would you say that's like a silky finish? Yeah, very silky. For them to be doing this consistently for 20, 30 years is amazing. I have great appreciation for a place like that. Yeah. Of all the pho places in Saigon, do you think that this is a good representation of Saigon style pho? Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah. This is exactly how Saigon pho should be. Mmm. Have a nice long finish, you know? And you know, when you eat good pho, after you don't get that dryness on your mouth. In the back of your throat, yeah. That dryness sensation, do you believe that it's from the overuse of MSG? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think MSG is okay to use it with the right amount. Mmm. And I think it helps enhance the dish better. Yeah. But when you overly use it, it have a backfire side effect, you know? Yeah. Give you that dryness and makes you very tired. Yes. Like for me, that's the side effect that I get is the dryness in the back of my throat, you know? Do you notice that majority of the pho broth, the hue, the color of the pho broth in Vietnam more light and clear versus dark brown? Is there a preference for either or? I think at the regular consumer here in Saigon, I think they prefer the little golden color, like not too dark. Yeah. When it's too dark, the flavor becomes a burnt flavor. Okay. So where do you think that dark color is coming from? Is it the roasting of the aromatics or is it from roasting the bones or fish sauce? What could it be? So it's just a little combination of both. Mmm-hmm. Because if you roast the bone, it's gonna give you a dark color. Yeah. You overroast the seasoning. Yeah. It gives you a dark color. Or when you put something on the heat too long. Yeah. It get more concentrated. Yeah. And it get a dark color. So you always have to keep an eye in between. Okay. When beauty, you know what to do. And when it's low, you have to adjust the heat. And when the pot gets too low, you have to re-fortify it, you know? It's a game of balance. Yeah. Tasting this broth, do you feel like they use fish sauce in their seasoning? None at all? No. MSG for sure. MSG for sure, okay. But no fish sauce. Okay. Usually fish sauce is more Nam Dinh or Northern style. From Saigon pho, they add it on the side. Okay. But I know a lot of pho shops, they don't add it into the broth. Yeah. And the pho, when you add the fish sauce in, it overpower all the spice and seasoning. Mm. Speaking of spices and seasoning, this broth right here is very subtle, right? Mm. Yeah. Super subtle. You can barely taste the spice. Do you have any other spots that feel like it's a good representation of Saigon style pho? Yeah, I got a few other spots, but they only open until 10 in the morning. They open at 5.30, then at 10. So we have to wake up early for that. And you know, they've been around, same thing. 30 year, 31st year. Two generation, three generation. On a scale from one to 10, how would you score this bowl of pho? This? Yeah. I give it a solid seven and a half to eight. If the broth is seasoned more heavily, it would score a possible nine or nine and a half on your scale. Maybe nine. Yeah, maybe nine. Have you ever given pho, a bowl of pho, a 10 in your lifetime? Not yet. Really? Not yet. Because if it's a 10, every time I think about it, it has to be the first one pop up. If it's a 10, you know? I thought you were going to say it was the last bowl of pho that I made. No, you've got to stay humble about it. I'm tasting the broth and I'm noticing like the spice again is very subtle. Speaking of spice, do you have a go-to place in Saigon that you source your spices? Yeah. I usually go to this Chinese medicine shop in Chinatown. Okay. And I'll take you there later. Okay. Can we go? Yeah, yeah. The best bowl of pho I ever had is I think after a long night out with friends, a little bit of drinking and hangover the next day. And to me, that bowl of pho like bring me back to life. Always spot on every time. What most people misunderstand about pho is they think it's the quick and cheap meal. If you really understand about pho, it's a very intensive process of making it. Require a lot of technique and skill because there's so many more steps go into it. And then I think pho needs to be appreciated more. So if I'm talking about making pho or putting together a pot of pho, what is the first thing and the most important thing that you're focusing on first? Is it the bones that you're sourcing first or the meats? I think it all have to be all go together. If you want a good pot of pho, it all comes down to great ingredient. Of course, you have to source a good bone, good meat because it gives you great depth of flavor. And if you get, you know, some cheap frozen meat, your broth gonna be really bland, you know? And even it comes down to the ginger. The ginger, you have to pick the good ginger because it's too dry. Or the ginger, it don't give you all the flavor that coming out of the ginger. And the shallot, you know, it has to be nice and plump and shiny, you know? Yeah. So every little thing count. Okay, let's start with the bones. Earlier, you mentioned that different bones give off different flavors. Could you share a bit about what bones are you using in your pot of pho? So for my pot of pho, I always usually go with two types of bones. There's the knuckle bone, which have a lot of collagen, tendon, and a little of the fat cap on it. So it gives you the, you know, we call it nuoc bao, the bone marrow oil. So a very nice color. And then I use the shin bone, the long bone with a lot of marrow inside because I like to add it to my bowl of pho when it's a little extra topping. Yeah, what proteins are you using for your pot? Oxtail, flank, brisket, and we call it gou yong, which is the fatty brisket. So, you know, on the whole brisket, you have the back, the front, and the little fat cap right here. And when you cook it over a long period of time, it become very, give you the nice crunch texture. A lot of people don't know, they think they bite into a big piece of fat, but that part right there, the fat cap, it gives you that tenderness, crunchy, and it bursting with flavor. Okay, are you separating how much and how long each protein cook and then you're removing that as well, or they all come out at the same time? They all come in at the same time, but they all go out at a different time. Okay. Yeah. So how long for oxtail and how long for your flank? How long for your brisket? Depends on the size of the cut that day. Usually I'll test it after three hours. They all usually minimum three to four hours. Anything more than that, your meat's gonna be too soft and it's falling apart. So you kind of do want the meat to hold together, but not too tough and not too soft. I usually have a fork in the kitchen and it's kind of like I'm playing darts. If I throw at it and it kind of bounce back, then it's not ready. But you know when it's ready, it go into like butter. It's smooth, it's like right in, yeah. Okay, so you just kind of throw a fork at it. Yeah, like playing darts. I let a guy go check the meat. They do like, boop. Is that what we call fork tender or no? Yeah. So for your bones, is there a prep process prior to you adding it to your pot? Do you soak your bones? Do you precook your meat? So what we do, we usually soak it in cold water with salt. And after we soak in the salt water, we rinse it with regular cold water and we boil them. We blanch them for a good five minutes. So after all that process done, then we put it back into the pot, add in the hot water and everything go from there. Okay, now let's talk about aromatics. Let's go back to the ginger and the onion that you mentioned earlier that different gingers will give different flavors. Oh yeah. And different onions. And bitterness. Yeah, so are you using young ginger or aged ginger? No, I prefer young ginger because the older ginger, it have a lot of fiber. Yeah. And when you grill it, it's a lot of bitterness. Okay. So the young ginger, the skin is thinner. Yeah. So when you grill it and you can scrub it after and all that thing, you kind of wash it in the water and it go away. Okay. And then when you add it to the soup, it don't give you the bitterness. Yeah. And it don't change the color of your broth. Okay. If you use the older ginger, it have too many burn fiber. Yeah. Then that will go into your broth and it kind of give the, it's not a nice color to look at. Are you using onion at all, like a sweet onion? Oh, sweet onion, I usually add it before serving. Because when the onion you put in there too long, it get cooked out. Yeah. And the flavor don't stay too long. So I do it when we serve it, you can actually have that flavor in there. Okay. But if you do it too long before, by the time you serve it, it's all gone. Okay. Look at it, aromatic, you know? Okay. It only stay for so long. Yeah. And then when you keep boiling the pot, the flavor get pushed out. Yeah. What spice do you use? And is there a ratio in what spices? Yeah, usually I use clove and star anise. Okay. And yeah, it go by ratio, you know, and one part clove, two part star anise. Okay. And it all comes down to personal preference. Yeah. What flavor you like most. Yeah. And to me, same thing, like, you know, like you say, there's no right way or wrong way of cooking. I mean, the foundation is set. Yes. But when it get to your personal preference, cook it however you enjoy. Yes. So what are the common spices that you see in Pho? In Saigon's alpha. Saigon's alpha. Yeah. Coriander seed, yeah. And you know, star anise, clove. Yeah. But in the South, they don't want too much of the star anise flavor. Because back in America, we yield heavily on that flavor. Yeah. And then in here in Saigon, they like less of that. Yeah. And in the North, even less than the South. Less spice. Yeah. Okay. Less spice. Yeah. For your pot of Pho, are you more of a subtle spice or are you more of a punch spice for your broth? Meaning that when someone first eat your broth, they pick up on spices right away. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. I think mine on the subtle. Subtle. Because, you know, we have a lot of trial and error. Yeah. And most of the time when people, they pick the spice right away. Yeah. And a lot of feedback that people don't like it. They like it more subtle. Yeah. So we have to tone it out a little bit and shorten time with the flavor bar in the Pho. You know? You and I both. Yeah. I prefer a more subtle spice broth versus, yeah. Because sometimes when you go overboard, it just gets too medicinal. Yeah. And you don't get the first flavor, the beefy flavor. The beefy flavor, yeah. And you know the reason why there's some places they're really strong in the flavor? Yeah. Because like I say, it all comes down to the ingredient again. When you don't get the good meat or from the right store, or you use a lot of... Then the meat gives you a different flavor. Yeah. So they use this spice to... To mask the... Mask the... The odor. The odor flavor. Yeah, the odor from the other protein. Okay. Yeah. Could you walk me through your process from A to Z? From... From cooking the bones all the way to the plating and serving? Yeah, I mean, yeah. The whole process usually about six to eight hours. So, I mean, you soak the bone, include nine hour, including the one I was cooking the bone. Yeah. And you usually add into the pot, bring it to boil, and you start skimming all the thing, what do you call that thing? All the... The thing that's floating on top. Impurities. Yeah, yeah. So you skim it out, and then you simmer it, and you start adding the seasoning one by one. Okay. You know, the salt, the sugar, rock candy, and then the flavor ball, that going in, in the end. Yeah. Before you serve. Usually, it go in an hour before serving, because you don't want to overpower. Yeah. And... Like some places, they just dump everything in for a long period of time, but that's when you get the over power, when you eat it. In the beginning. Yeah. But throughout the day, that flavor becomes so concentrated. Yeah. And... It's not a nice flavor. Yes. It almost like, you know, when you cook something so long, it burns. Yeah. And something with the flavor, when you add into the pot, if you don't take it out in time, and it's gonna be over you. It affects the whole broth. Yeah. And you have to fix it. When you remove your proteins, your flank, your brisket, is there a way that you treat it to prevent oxidation? The classic way. The classic way? Saran wrap. Saran wrap? Yeah. Put your meat in there, cool it down. Yeah. And when it cool down, and I usually put in the cooler for like an hour to make sure it all dry. Yeah. And after that, you put in saran wrap, and you can keep it there for a long time. Yeah. You can put in the freezer. Yeah. And when you ready, you defrost it and slice it, and it tastes just as good. Okay. So the reason why I ask is because for home cooks, I guess, it's like how do they treat the protein, or if they could make it before and then, yeah. I'll put in a Ziploc bag. At home, throw in a Ziploc bag, after you ice it, and put in your cooler or freezer. Okay. So, soaked bones, cooked bones, simmer, and then season with rock candy and salt, and then- And then spice seasoning. Yeah, spice seasoning is, you said, towards the last hour- Yeah, like shallot. Yeah. Put, I mean, chopped shallot, ginger, cloves, star anise. Yeah. And usually, I use the cheese bag. Yeah. And you just put everything in, and zip it up, and drop it in. Okay. How about noodles? Are you particular about your, the chew, or fresh noodles, or what type of noodles are you going with? So here, this is where a lot of people get confusing, or they get used to it. Yeah. Because, you know, back home in US, we're used to the dry noodle. Yes. Because we don't have a lot of options for fresh noodle back in, back in the day. But now, now there's some, most of the place we can get fresh noodle now. Yeah. More manufacturers. But people eat the dry noodle for so long. They're used to that chewy texture. Okay. And now if you give them the fresh one, they're like, oh, too soft for me. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, usually when I do this, we can give people the option. And you want the fresh one, we have the fresh one. And we have the regular one that everyone been eating for a year. We have that too. Yeah. Okay. We got noodles. How about herbs? What herbs are you serving? Herbs, I usually, so here we use more than back home. Back home, usually we only do basil. Right. Because it's what's available and easy to find. And then the salt grass, really small guy. Yeah. So expensive. Yeah. Back home. More than the pho. Yeah. So it doesn't make sense to have that on the menu. Yeah. You won't make any money. Yeah. And we use the right paddy herb. Ngoc Oam. I love it. Now my essential for herbs is like, of course, the bean sprouts, basil, sawtooth coriander, and Ngoc Oam. Yeah. Is essential. How about garnishes? Garnishes, I always stick with green onion, white onion, and cilantro. Okay. And some people don't like cilantro, we can, you know, keep it out, but usually that's the three main toppings. Okay. Is there anything else that I missed throughout your, just the technique portion of how to cook your pot of pho? Everyone has the same ingredients, but you have to love what you do. And you know, just taking care of your pot. Yeah. Because some people, they cook it, and then they dump everything in, and turn on the fire, and they call that pho. No, you have to take care of it, you know? Yeah. Make sure the broth come out good, make sure the meat come out tender. And I think by doing that, and the customer who eats your pho, they will feel it. And this is from my experience. Yeah. I can eat a bowl of pho, and I can almost tell you if this guy care about the pho or not. Yeah. Because down to the onion, they cut it nice, consistently same size. Yeah. Not long, not short. And you know, the cilantro come out all green. Yeah, not green. And sometimes they give you like yellowish cilantro. I'm like, what are you doing? You know what? To me, all that little thing, it matter. Yes. People say, oh, it's a vegetable. No, it's not. It's what you feed the people. Yeah. If you're going to put something on the table, just do it right. Yeah. You don't have to get crazy about it. Yeah. Fresh herb, nice, green, crisp, you know? And it's not hard to do. Yeah. You just have to pay attention to it. Yes. And it's simple. It's simple. So speaking of love for the game, just having love, having care, right? How long do you think, or how many reps, how many pots of pho will someone have to make for them to, I guess, quote unquote, master a pot of pho? Do you feel like you've mastered pho? I don't think I'm a master of pho, but I mean, I think I can cook a good pot of pho. Okay. And I can take that challenge any day. Yeah. Comfortably. Yeah. And just do the math, right? I used to cook three pot of pho a day. Yes. For, we close one day a year at my parent restaurant. give or take, 360 days. Yeah. With three pot a day. Yeah. So that over a thousand pot a year. Yeah. And I do that for the last 20 years. Yeah. And I'm still learning. I got a lot of catching up to do. I go to like, all these local spots. Yeah. I still see things that I don't know. And I'm like, oh wow, that's cool. Yeah. And you know, like I said, you learn and you adapt to your game. Yeah. And you just have something new offer to the people or something good offer to the people. What is it, something new that you picked up, a new technique for pho that you picked up recently? Yeah, like the oil, the aromatic oil. The aromatic oil, okay. And you know, why do you in Vietnam, but that's something that grow in America. We didn't do that. Yeah. And I say, it's something so simple. How come we don't thought about it? It's the same way as the Japanese. And I apply that and my pho like, get even another level better. Yeah. And that's something that, you know, I say, you can't wait to learn new thing. Yeah. And you know, and they even come down to seasoning, right? Yeah. You get the white rock candy and the brown rock candy. That control the color of your broth. You want to go lighter, lightly brown or golden brown. Yeah. And then you just mix with the ratio. Oh. And that's something that I can learn recently too. Interesting. So ratio of rock sugar as well. because before in America, we have the yellow rock sugar. Everybody's just using yellow rock sugar. everyone should use the yellow rock sugar. Okay. And come here, I discovered that the brown one and it actually give my broth a really nice golden color. And I'm like, Oh wow. Okay. The reason why I asked this, because even I'm sure you've seen Jiro dream of sushi. Jiro dreams of sushi in Japan. I saw a post recently that at, even at his age at a hundred, over a hundred now, he still has not perfected his sushi. Yeah. So, you know, it's very humbling. And I very much respect, you know, when you say that after thousands and thousands of pots of pho, you feel like you haven't mastered it yet. So it makes me feel good knowing that, even though that I have a long way to go and reps to get in, you know, it's like, it's a process, right? I think in terms of pho and technique, I think that's, that covers it, right? Yeah. The more you do, the better you get at it. And to me, I say when it comes down to cooking, don't, don't be afraid. You, you can reach out to ask. Yeah. Any chef friend of yours. And there's so many resource now compared to 20 years ago. Yeah. 20 years ago, I don't have chat GPT, no AI, no Google, you know? Yeah. And every time you want to learn something, you literally have to like, Hey, like really begging. Hey, I don't know how to do this. People don't share before. Yeah. Now, now it's completely opposite. Yeah. And people should take that at the advantage for them. Yeah. To grow. Yeah. Or to learn. Yeah. Once again, thank you for taking your time and sitting down and chatting and sharing. Learned a lot today. Thank you, Kai. Thank you. After today, I feel like I have a clearer understanding on what defines pho here in Saigon. Every bowl that we tried had its own identity, but the common thread was balance. Spending time with Kai, seeing how he approaches his broth, his process. It gave me a new perspective on what goes into a great bowl of pho. And I picked up some techniques along the way, which I'll be sharing in the next video, where I show you how to make pho at home. Thank you so much for watching. Thank you for all the comments, the engagement, the feedback. It really means a lot. See you guys on the next one.