We Compared Whole Life Insurance Company Loans (Rates, Dividends, Direct vs Non-Direct)

In today's video, we're going to be talking about whole life insurance loans, how they work, mechanics behind them. We're even going to look at four companies, Penn Mutual, Lafayette Life, Guardian, and Mass, and look exactly how their loans work. Some are direct recognition, some are non-direct recognition. Their interest rates are different. How they credit to the policy might be different. And we're also going to go through two real life scenarios. Somebody that lost all their money on a life insurance loan, and you'll see what that looked like. And one person that used a life insurance loan to invest in a business, and it did quite well. We're going to show you the pros and cons of both of those scenarios. Without further ado, Justin Gartman, welcome back to the show, and excited to dive into all things policy loans. This is something that gets asked all the time. How does this work? And a lot of times, especially how infinite banking is sometimes taught, you think that there's something magical here. And in all reality, there's nothing magical other than this is an efficient way to access capital, where long term, you're still getting maximizing the death benefit in the policy, and your cash value continues to grow. But there's nothing magical here. And I think by the end of this, people will hopefully have a better understanding and feel more confident of when to use their policy and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. One, thanks for having me. And it's definitely something that pretty much everybody asks that I get on a conversation with, they're like, all right, how's this loan thing work, especially if they they just heard a little bit about it. And so, yeah, it's not some magic bullet. It can be a very powerful tool when used properly in everything. And so that's what we'll dive into today. But first, we'll talk about some of the basics here. So I'm not going to go into a ton of detail here. But there's really two different ways that the companies charge charge their interest, ultimately, it ends up mapping out to about the same, it's just going to be a matter of what you may see inside your policy portal and everything. So you have interest in advance. So think of that as something that you pay rent at a place you're paying for Netflix, hey, you pay for it, and then you get it for the entire month there, you kind of prepay that that's the same way that it works like a guardian, you go in, you take a loan, you'll see that they prepay that so it means you just have less cash value available. Now, if you pay your loan back earlier, that gets credited back. So ultimately doesn't make that much of a difference. Then flip to the other side in mutual Lafayette life. This just means hey, they're going to charge it kind of backwards. So in arrears, they're going to charge it backwards, which means think of like your electricity bill, you use electricity, and then they charge you for what you use. So that's really the way that it works. One's building up towards it. One, they charge before and then if you pay back early, well, you get a little bit of a not a refund. But hey, you have that cash value back there. So I want to go actually back to the basics before we get into this about life insurance loans in general, because some people when they're thinking about this, this might be their first video watching of ours. And so just know that one thing that we we specialize on this channel and as a company is helping people max fund or what we call overfund whole life insurance policies where you're getting a lot of cash value available. This is like equity inside the policy. And there's a couple ways that you can use that cash value, you can withdraw that cash value, or you could take a policy loan against it. Well, the reasons you would want to take a policy loan against it is if you withdraw that money, you can't put it back. And you're also reducing the death benefit as well. And in some cases, it may not be as tax advantage. Whereas a policy loan, you're actually just collateralizing your cash value and your death benefit. In a sense, you're able to borrow against a portion of your cash value, use that capital for whatever you want. As you pay back the insurance company, your cash value will get freed up as you're paying that back, which is available to you. And your net death benefit also gets freed up. And if something were to happen to you, like you didn't repay back that loan, or you you were to die with an outstanding loan, the outstanding loan, whatever that amount is would get subtracted from your death benefit. So if you had a million dollar death benefit and a $10,000 outstanding loan, you would get not your beneficiaries would get $990,000 of death benefit to their family. Obviously, there's a lot of people that follow us that very much see the benefits of, you know, max funding life insurance, building up cash value to invest in other things. And so Justin, is there anything I'm missing there from like the basics? Yeah, no, that's, yeah, thanks for that. Get it, get ahead of myself. I think everyone knows. Oh, here's. Yeah, yeah. No, no, maybe, maybe people skip that. You can say in the comments that you skip that. I think it's important because some people are watching this for the first time. They're like, what in the world? I didn't even know you could take a loan against life insurance. So now you're saying, when we're getting into the policy loans, there's two different types of ways that people can charge interest. Some are like front loading it. And are they doing it for the whole year, essentially, like when when you take a loan from like a guardian of mass and you need $10,000? Do they just front load the annual interest on top of that? So are you taking a 10,000 plus and the full interest out? Is that how they they operate? Easiest way to think about it? Yeah, it's like you take a $10,000 loan. Well, if it interest five percent, it's like you took a $10,500 loan. They'll lower that available cash value down because, hey, that's the interest there that it would be if you didn't pay it back for the others. It's building up to that point. It's accruing every day, every single, every single day that you and the Guardian and Mass Mutual, if you pay that back sooner, like half a year, they just it's not like you're it's not like you're having to pay an annual interest rate. They would just credit the rest back to your cash value credit. They would just credit it back there to you. OK, so I put that in here really. Ultimately, if you're going to borrow, use the cash value, it's not going to make a difference to you. But for the people that take a loan, you have a policy. Oh, well, my cash value dropped more than the loan that I took. That's generally going to be why you'll see that drop where I've been mutual. You'll see that balance building throughout the year. So it makes a slight difference. Most of the people, you're probably not going to worry about that. Like, hey, that's way too into the weeds. But I wanted to leave that, leave that in there, too. So that's that. And then another topic. So, yes, you can borrow against the policy. That's the way that if you did, it would work. Another topic that probably people I know we've talked about it. Lots of questions around. Should it be nondirect? Should it be direct? Is one better than the other? All of those good things. We're not here to talk about that today. We're going to briefly hit it. But basically, nondirect is the way that it's going to be. If you borrow, they're not recognizing you took a loan at all. Whatever cash value you have, that's going to earn the exact same dividend and the exact same rate of growth inside the policy, whether you took a loan or whether you did not take a loan. That's all the same. So it's nondirect. They don't recognize anything. Then on the other side, you have direct recognition. You are still getting credited for your entire cash value amount. That's what most people come in. They're like, I don't want direct because I'm not getting any growth if I borrow. Not true at all. You're still getting growth on every single dollar that you have of cash value. They are just going to recognize that, oh, you had $100,000 of cash value. You borrowed 50. Well, the 50 that is unloaned, it's going to get the regular dividends. The 50 that is loaned out, we're going to treat that a little bit differently. 90% of the time, 99% of the time, that is going to mean you're going to get a little bit lesser dividend. Occasionally, you're going to get a higher dividend. As interest rates skyrocket, that could happen. But I think you're always going to get a lesser dividend for the most part there. So that's how we're questioning that. Yeah. Well, and just more of a comment, there's a lot of people that use this as a selling technique. We have companies that are direct recognition and nondirect recognition. I have personal policies that are direct recognition and nondirect recognition. I think it's one of those things that gets way too blown out of proportion. I did it when I first got in because I was told that's a selling point. If you're dealing with the right type of company and your policy is properly structured and you're dealing with any of the companies that we mentioned here, it really is not going to matter at the end of the day. It could be the difference between what we talked about, interest advanced or as you go. It might look a little different early on, but when it's all said and done, it's going to matter a lot less than you might think. And so that's what we'll say when it comes to direct versus nondirect. Yeah, it's definitely something that if you know what the interest rate environment is going to do for the next however long you're alive, well, you can probably pick which one you may want. I know you said you were big on nondirect when you first got in. I was too, because when we first got in, interest rates were down and very low. Typically, nondirect recognition is going to be better in those environments. As interest rates go up, typically nondirection or nondirect is going to be a little bit better. So that's what makes the big difference. Also, another thing is direct recognition does allow a little bit more control for the life insurance company so they can stay a little bit more balanced. And typically, later on in retirement, when you are taking income and doing different things, a lot of times you'll see direct recognition perform a little bit better. If you're taking massive loans and not planning to pay them back for a long time early in the policy, a lot of times you may see nondirect be a little bit better there. Ultimately, it's a balance. You shouldn't pick a company just because of one or the other. If you had two equal companies and you're like, I'm not sure, well, pick which one you like and then go with it. Yeah, I like it. All set. That's the little difference there. Now, we're going to quickly go through each company and kind of what they are, how they do the interest. Are they direct, nondirect, whatever it may be there. So we're going to start with Pin Mutual. One, they are direct recognition. So that means you borrow from the policy. They are going to recognize that you have borrowed. We're going to look down here at the direct recognition adjustments because that's a big piece that says, well, if they recognize that it's not getting zero, like you may have heard, you are still being credited and you are actually getting a difference of 0.65%. And that's from the loan amount that you are paying there. So it's not a, the dividend six, you're getting 0.65 less than that. It's whatever the loan interest rate is. That's what this is based on. So if you, I'm going to make the math easy. If you, the loan interest was not 5% or 5.3, if it was 5%, well, if you borrow from the policy, whatever you borrow, that's going to be getting 4.35% as far as the dividend rate would be there. So it is going to be less in this case. And that's how it's recognized for the first 10 years. After that, it's going to be equal. So if you borrow at 5.3, well, that dividend rate would be 5.3 on the money that you borrow compared to what's still left in the policy there. So that's how that's going to, going to work there. Thoughts there, anything I missed there, Caleb? No, no. I think it's, I think it's, we're going through different companies and how they, they operate. So no questions. So that's one that, no, that's a big question. A lot of people get. The other deal is they are a variable rate. So a current rate right now is 5.3. They keep that rate for the entire year and then they'll adjust in January and you'll have a new rate for that year, but it does vary. So it's going to go up and down as interest rate environment goes up and down right there. Then we have Lafayette Life. So this one's a little simpler because it's a non-direct recognition. So we don't have any adjustment to your dividends, whatever you borrow at, that's what you're still going to be getting the same growth inside the policy on that. Now their interest structure is variable. So again, it's going to go up and down. Their current rate is actually 6.75 there. So a little bit on the higher end compared to the others. But that dividend isn't going to be directly recognized. So you do have that going for you there. Yeah. I just, I just want to point out, this is like, we just looked at two so far, Penn and Lafayette, and again, they, they fluctuated, but you could say, okay, well, Penn Mutual directly recognizes, but their loans also a lot cheaper. So this is where it's kind of like all, I'm not going to speak like in generality, but it's, it's kind of like, it's all kind of the same. If we really want to be technical at the current snapshot, Penn is more attractive being direct recognition with, with what I'm, what we're seeing to compare their IRR, their loan rate, even with the direct recognition, but things could change, you know? And that, that's, that's the thing is like, I'm old enough to remember Lafayette Life's interest back in the day was cheaper. And so that could have changed when you're talking about it there. So that's where it's like, you just want to be less into the trying to hack every, everything, and just making sure that you're with a good company, that your policy is being funded well. And then maybe at the very end, we can talk about third-party lending because it might not matter at all about the direct or non-direct recognition because you might have a third party that lends against your policy. Yeah. I think that's a good, a good point to bring up too, is that if you aren't sure one thing with direct recognition, I mean, you can do it with non-direct too, but direct recognition, you can always get a third party line of credit. And now if interest rates go really low, we'll borrow from the bank and have it collateralized. And now you're really in control there. So that's a definitely a good point of, you can have a little bit of control of it, but yeah, don't look at everything in a snapshot. Pick the policy that has lots of other details. And then this can be something that over time, typically it's going to be a wash as you go. And then moving to Guardian. So Guardian is another, we'll see here, direct recognition. So they are direct recognition. They are probably one of the more interesting ones that we have on here because there's a few more details here. So first they do have a fixed rate. They're the only company on here that has a fixed rate. All the others are variable, but right now you can get a 5% loan rate. So meaning you can get a policy, you know, this year it's going to be 5%. You know, potentially 20 years from now, it could be 5%. So it can lock in that interest rate right now and you know what it's going to be. But they also give you the option that you can switch that once you get to year 10. So you can decide, hey, once I get to year 10, I don't like that my interest rate is fixed, I'm going to go the variable route. And that's going to do two things for you. One, your interest rate's variable. So as interest rates go up and down, yours will, but at that point it would also switch and be a non-direct recognition policy. So if you're like, I really like the Guardian policy. I don't like that it's direct recognition. Well, hang out for 10 years and then you have the choice and you can make the switch there. I wonder who's coming up with this stuff. Like they're just creating like a nightmare on the backend. I'm sure the employees hate that. Yeah. Have a lot there. It gives you a lot of options, I guess, and you can switch to that. It's also something if you do keep the fixed rate, then once you get to 65, your interest rate is actually going to drop. So your fixed rate becomes less. And depending on the product and everything that you have, your interest rate for when you borrow could be 3% to 4%. Most of the time right now on the whole life 95 product, which is majority of probably what we do or a 10 pay product, it's going to be a 3.5%. So think, hey, you hang out, if you're 30, just hang around for 35 years. And then your interest rate is going to drop to 3.5%. You're going to be borrowing at a And obviously that can be very advantageous for taking cashflow for the future. So that's cool that Guardian does that. Yeah. And that's really what it's designed for. And the direct recognition why you'll see a for a few years that direct that gaps a little bit bigger, and then it shrinks as you get older. It's because they look at that and know, yeah, as you get later in retirement years, that's most of the time when someone might be borrowing against their policy for income and different things like that. So that's the reason for for that. And you see the adjustments here again, a little more to it, they don't have a one through 10. And then it changes is one through 20 is 1%. Depending on how old you are, it can drop to point five, or if you're older than 59, it drops to point 1%. So there's always a little gap between the borrowing interest rate and the dividend rate that you're going to get there whenever it is directly recognized there. So fun one to talk about, because there's a lot of different options there. But all pretty, hopefully straightforward once you actually get into it. And then we have mass mutual. So last one here on our our list. And these aren't the only companies that we work with. But I wanted to have just four instead of looking at as many as we possibly could could today. And a lot of these could be the main ones here. So mass mutual, non direct, they do have a variable interest rate, and that is currently at 5.53%. And so, yeah, you borrow, it's all going to be the same, whether you have the cash value in there, or you have it loaned out, you're getting that same non direct recognition there. And then any other before we're going to look at two case studies, actual people that I've either worked with or talked to, and their borrowing experience, any other topics that we should dive into any other? I think one of the questions is, how do these loan rates get generated? Like, how do they get determined? Because pens, guardians and masses are all very similar. Lafayette's is higher. And I'm curious what their what their back end is made up of. And how do we determine that each company generally is going to have their own parameters of how they actually do it. However, in a few of them actually have in their contracts that it's going to be based similar to Moody's corporate bond rate. So if you go back and you look and find Moody's corporate bond rate that you can look at, you'll see that the interest rates are generally going to be close to that, because that's what they're, they're going to work off of, for the most part. Now, they also take into consideration their own internal of, hey, what do we actually need to charge because they got to stay in business. So that's why you may see one like Lafayette Life, who has a lot of outstanding loans, they're non direct interest rate environments a little higher, possibly, I mean, I don't know for sure, but you can look and assume that's why their interest rate needs to be a little bit higher right now, because of something like that. So that's what they're basing it off of. But they all have their own ways of calculating that how close it's actually going to be to that. Now, we're gonna look at two different situations in two different outcomes here. And not that one is better than the other. But it's something to keep in mind of, to go back to, you don't just need to borrow against the policy, because it's the cool thing to do. I don't know if we can say, hey, life insurance, but money and borrow is a cool thing to do. I think it is. But you shouldn't just do it. Just to do it. You need to understand the loans and how they work and how there is interest being charged as building up against you here. So these are two real situations. Right here. One situation number one here was somebody that they got a policy, they were told they had a had just inherited a lump sum of money. And they were in their 50s. And they were told, hey, you need to do a dump in with that policy, you got to get it into the policy right now, so that you can put your money to work and borrow against it. You can't just leave it in the policy, you need to put it in borrow it. So you can have that money working for you. Now, this person was had working, they weren't the entrepreneur type weren't really the investor type, not that that person couldn't learn how to do that. But they had the policy to do that. And they went and found a private lending deal. They had dumped in a little over $100,000. And they borrowed majority of that back out to go do this deal. And unfortunately, as can happen in investments that borrow disappeared. So now they had what they were told was, well, your minimum is going to be a certain amount, but you can meet that right now. But you'll also have income from the cash flow produced by what you're going to invest in. So you can continue to find your premium and pay back the loan. And so whenever that happened, well, now they had their continued policy premium, they had to pay, they had $100,000 loan, it wasn't exactly that, but call it $100,000 loan that's building interest, even at 5% interest, that's $5,000 a year that now had no income to come in to pay for that. Their minimum, I think of the policy was going to be about $10,000. So now that's $15,000 that needs to be paid. And they had really overdone it on the big dumping that they did. So that's why they were in a little bit of a bind there. And unfortunately, I got this call when they were looking for ways out or ways to fix the policy. And what they ended up doing was they had to surrender the policy. So that's a loss of a death benefit. That's a loss of their safe asset that was supposed to keep growing with them, compounded on top of the investment loss. Now, investment losses are going to happen. Sometimes you invest and it's good. Sometimes you invest and it's not, but that shouldn't really affect the policy. Why we want the policy and everything that you have there, one, we want the minimum low enough. It's flexible. We don't want to over leverage yourself in any situation there, which is kind of what happened here. And of course, hindsight is 2020, which is where I'm looking at it from there. A couple of things that point out to me, number one, it almost sounded like their loan that they did, that deal was predicated on keeping that business or that policy going, which is kind of a no-no. So that's unfortunate. I also want to point out if their money was in a high yield account, they would still have lost some money if they deployed that. They're obviously canceling a life insurance policy within the first couple of years is never a good thing to cancel a policy, but it's even worse in the first couple of years because you have less than what you've put in. And overall, that's really sad. I think it's like, was it a function of the policy loan? No, but they would have been much better off just keeping their money in cash value and not loaning against that. So it is unfortunate to see that, but it sounds like their policy was a little too big and we probably would have structured it different if their whole policy was built. It sounded like they couldn't sustain it with their cashflow. That's what it was going to be. They were going to be funding the minimum. It was going to be essentially a stretch anyways. It was, as we talked, it was, well, how much are you saving? And it was like, I'm able to put away about a thousand bucks a month. That's right now. And their policy minimum was about 10,000. So you look right there and it's already, you have to pay a minimum of 10,000. You're only saving 12,000. I mean, saving 12,000, they didn't have any other money going anywhere else. And so it was kind of, hey, you found this and not that it was one function of it, of it all. Like the policy, policy loans can be a great thing, but it was more of a, you don't have to get all the money in the policy to then go out and invest. You could have done a smaller policy, continued to build, made the same investment. Well, now the investment doesn't go as good, but we're able to keep the policy, keep the death benefit. You can keep funding. You don't have a massive loan to pay back there in any case. And early in the policy that happens, you don't have as many options. If you borrow and later on in the policy, you can't, you don't have a way to pay back. Say things go really south. Well, you probably have other cash value. You have dividends that are being paid that you can keep the policy going without having to get into that situation. So just a function of everything, but main thing is make sure you understand the policy. Don't get more than what you can potentially handle in certain situations. Also, also, I am not a fan of a couple, another one of the things is always have at least a year or two of base premium in your cash value available. I mean, don't take all the money out. Like there's so many things that I'm, and again, I, it is hindsight 2020, but these are exactly the things that people need to hear when you're, you're seeing this great opportunity, have at least a year or two of reserves in your policy to self fund it. In case something crazy happens, like losing all the money, that's another thing that you can do. Yeah, that's a great, a great point. And your policy is going to do that anyways. Most of them have an automatic loan provision of, Hey, you didn't pay your premium because you disappeared. For some reason, we can't get a hold of you. Well, we're going to automatically take a loan to keep that policy in place. So you can go off the grid for two years. If you have a minimum in there and it's, your policy is going to be just as good as when you come back, you'll just have outstanding. So yeah, you want to make sure you have a buffer there because last thing you want to do is investment goes bad, but now you lose that safe asset that you were building along the way with it there. Now, enough of that person, because that's not always the case. That's just an unfortunate situation there. And why it's important to work with someone that can walk you through, is this a good idea? Not that we would give you, Hey, no, the investment piece, but based on, Hey, if things go right, great. We can look at that, but let's also look at things go wrong to make sure you're going to be in a good situation there. Situation two, this person, they did a similar type policy, but they didn't overextend themselves. It was very similar. They wanted the policy. They wanted to dump in a large amount, but that minimum, they were saving a lot more than their minimum regardless. So things were going to have to not just lose an investment, but they were going to have to have a lot of things go wrong to not be able to fund the policy. So that already you're starting off on a much better foot. And they funded this policy and actually they funded for two years. So they waited and had a little bit more of a buffer and then got into an investment. And in this, it was just a down payment or partial payment, and they bought a small business from somebody. It was actually a franchise, I believe, and things went well. So it's not about the investment. I want to hear that because some investments are going to go good. Some aren't. You want to have policy that can stay in place whether things go good or bad. But in this case, it went well. They were actually able to continue to pay back the loan. And even if things had gone south, they probably would have been able to still find the minimum, at least probably a little more. And then, of course, you got to pay back the loan, but they would have been able to do that too because the policy was more designed for, hey, here's what we're going to do, not overextending themselves. And so this person used that cash flow, paid back the loan, continued to pay the premium, and now they're just waiting on another opportunity and they've paid another year premium. And so they have a larger nest egg there that they can continue to go out and use. So good situation, bad situation. They took a policy loan, invested into a franchise business, paid back the policy loan, have the assets still. So their asset's cranking. They have their capital to redeploy if they want policies intact. That's like a best case scenario kind of situation. Yeah, that's the picture perfect of, hey, here's how, why you should do it and how it should work. If you really want the end asset of it all, that's why. And so that's how it should work. I love it. Maybe we need to get them on the channel and have them talk. No, I think we need more case studies like that and people's experiences. So if you're watching this and either have a story or would like to hear a story, let us know and we can make that happen. Yeah, a good thing there. But yeah, all that really I'll say to summarize is there's always a cost to borrow. And I think that's what a lot of people miss is, like you said, they max out the loan, $100,000 loan at 5% interest. That's $5,000 a year that I know we typically say at least pay the interest. So it's not compounding against you. You don't have to. So that's the myth of never pay it back. It's like, yeah, great. You don't have to, but that's compounding against you every single year. And so if you're 30 and have a loan compounding, even if you're paying premiums, your policy is going to end up a lot less than what it would have. So if you at least pay off the interest, which is another expense, you need to do that because there is no free money. This isn't going to be the magic bullet that you get. You get free money and now you can go out and all your problems go away. It needs to be thought out. You need to have a plan. And if it goes along with your plan, it can be extremely useful, extremely beneficial in a lot of different ways, which I know we have talked about there. So that's what I was saying. Then I would also say, even if you never borrow against the policy, it's still going to be a great tool for you. I know we talk a lot about you borrow, you have it available. You can go out and make other investments. But it's still a great asset as you get into retirement, even if you just fund it and you're looking at it as a kind of safe portion. I guarantee most people that think they're invested all in equities right now, if you look at what you're actually invested in, probably have some bonds in there. If you're invested in some different funds, different ETFs, they're going to keep a portion in bonds for the most part. So you look at, well, how about you do a policy and you can look at the benefits of that. You're already investing in something safe there that this would be an investment. But as you go long term, now you see the big benefits of it, that it doesn't have to be a massive overfunded policy you borrow against. You can do something a lot smaller, a lot more flexible, still get all the benefits over the long term there that if you're an entrepreneur type, yeah, you need a lot more cashflow going in, you're going to borrow, it's going to be a great benefit there. If you're not, keep working your job, allocate a portion towards life insurance, keep making your other investments, and you're still going to end up most likely in a lot better position than what you could there. So to each their own, as far as what it goes, it's all part of the plan and how it would actually fit into your life there. Well said. Well said, Justin. I know we mentioned briefly about third party lending and I'll just share personally, as you were talking, I got my third party lender up and I'm currently paying an interest rate of 5.95%. And so it's interesting because a couple of these companies were a little smaller. So like you could get cheaper money, but there was some type of, it affected the policy, especially direct recognition. And so I see it all as kind of a Could I squeak out a little bit ahead with certain companies? Maybe. I don't really think about it in the way of, can I squeak a few, because everything's going to change, including the interest rate at my third party bank. What I care more about is a system. How do I maximize the premiums that are going in? And how do I just create simplicity? And for me, I like having checkbook access, wire access. I like that multiple policies that I have are combined in one. And for those reasons, it's attractive knowing that that's the situation I have. And so if that's something that interests you, and obviously you're a client of ours, we'd love to have a conversation. And even if you're not a client of ours and you want to schedule a meeting, talk maybe about your current policy that you have. Does third party make sense? Would a policy, should you set up a policy to see your numbers? We have links down below and you can check out the pin comment or the description. And we do this day in and day out. And so we would love to have a conversation with you, but we just want you to have more education and knowledge around how loans work and the pros and cons and how different companies are set up. Yeah, I think I need to call whoever you have your loan to because my interest rate, I have a third party line of credit too. And my interest rate is still at like 6.5. There you go. We'll make it happen. So that's one of the reasons why it's good to have conversations is to review.