Toxic or Not? Forrest and Jenny from FORREST GUMP

I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. She's saying you don't want to marry me because she doesn't believe she's worthy of that love. Well, you're running off, too. I'm not running. There are aspects of her and Forrest's relationship that are unhealthy. You can't keep doing this, Forrest. You can't keep trying to rescue me all the time. But the notion that Jenny is toxic or even, as some people claim, the true villain of the story? Oh, f*** you. Just f*** you right to hell. I'm Jenny. I'm Forrest. Forrest got up. Everything Jenny does from here through the end of the film is her trying to recover from this childhood. I was messed up for a long time. Are there unhealthy dynamics to this relationship? Sure. But you're dealing with somebody who understands what love is, but he doesn't understand how love works. Would you marry me, Forrest? From what we've seen in the film so far, the only thing I would label toxic? This is one of the reasons why good therapy is so crucial. Hello, and welcome to Cinema Therapy. I'm Jonathan Decker, licensed therapist at Lowe's Movies. This is... Alan Seawright, a professional filmmaker who needs therapy. Today, we are doing a Toxic or Not on one of the all-time great iconic films of the 90s. Forrest? Forrest Gump? God! I'm surrounded by idiots! I was going to have you say Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump. Yes! There's a lot of chatter online. A lot of people have opinions, say that this movie is toxic. That his portrayal of Forrest and his potential autism or his intellectual disability is toxic. Even that Jenny is toxic, that her relationship with Forrest is toxic. That this whole movie is toxic! And the fact is, what the hell does that word even mean? Yeah, I, what, what? I, I, I don't, uh, I can't, uh, what? It's not a clinical term, it's not a diagnosis, it is an adjective. Right. That has been hijacked by pop psychology and used rather badly, I might add, by people who just want to describe something that they don't like or disagree with. Not everything is toxic if you don't like it. But, I don't think that means we should never use the term. Okay. I just think we should use it responsibly and have some sort of consensus on what it even means. The Oxford Dictionary defines toxic as... We can't agree with the Oxford Dictionary. Yeah, hell yeah we can't. Okay, giddy up. And that dictionary describes toxic as poisonous or harmful in a pervasive or insidious way. Do, do you see already how we're overusing the word toxic? I think it's getting overused. Well, we're gonna break it down though. What's healthy, what's not, is anything here toxic? Outside of the napalm, the napalm is toxic. Oh my gosh. I just sat next to her on that bus and had a conversation all the way to school. And next to mama, no one ever talked to me or asked me questions. Are you stupid or something? Mama says stupid is as stupid does. I'm Jenny. I'm Forrest, Forrest Gump. From that day on, we was always together. Jenny and me was like peas and carrots. Okay, so the question, are you stupid or something? Some people are like, this movie is insulting to people with intellectual disability and potentially with autism. There's a strong case that Forrest may be autistic on the spectrum, right? But Jenny's question, are you stupid or something, is not meant as an insult and Forrest doesn't take it as such. Nope. She is an innocent child trying to figure him out. Like, how do I pitch my conversation to you? And anyone who has spent time around children, especially if you're a parent, they will say things that you go, oh gosh, but they don't mean anything by it. Yeah. This is how I would phrase it because I'm just trying to understand. So Forrest definitely qualifies for what the DSM-5 calls intellectual disability. That's an IQ below 70 and there are impediments in several different areas of life. And he may also be on the spectrum. He frequently misreads social cues, says things that others find inappropriate that he doesn't mean to be inappropriate. But if he is on the spectrum, what a wonderful portrayal because it shows just how diverse that community really is. Right. Because he is very affectionate. He's very loving and he's very social. Yeah. The thing is, I don't really see him as being on the spectrum. Like, he misses social cues and stuff, but I think that's just related to the intellectual disability. Yeah, okay. I don't see the autism spectrum. I'm not saying that people who read it that way are wrong. I'm just saying I don't see it. Here's the thing, though. Is the movie toxic in its portrayal of intellectual disability? Hell no. Forrest Gump is the kindest, sweetest, most wonderful character in film, maybe? And courageous as hell. Yeah. And he's super accomplished. Which begs the question, how is he so good at all these things and how does he accomplish so much in his life? There is the fictional component of, well, it's just what the story needs. But there's also a psychological argument to be made that he might have savant syndrome. Which means that there are a handful of things that he is exceptional at. And that's totally viable. There are a lot of people in this movie that probably could have used a really good therapist. Lieutenant Dan for his PTSD. Jenny for her childhood trauma. Uh-huh. Maybe they could have used better help. Well, the internet didn't exist yet, but this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp connects you with a licensed therapist who is trained to listen and give you helpful, unbiased advice. You'll get matched with a therapist, in most cases, in 48 hours or less. And they're committed to helping you find a therapist who's a good fit for you. BetterHelp has a network of over 30,000 therapists with a wide range of expertise. So you can easily switch to a new therapist at no additional cost if the one you're first matched with isn't a good fit. You don't even have to run all the way across the country. To get started, click the link below or go to betterhelp.com forward slash cinematherapy and fill out the questionnaire to assess your specific needs. You can choose a time that's convenient for you for your therapy sessions. You don't have to wait a decade for Jenny to come to her senses. And you can choose how you want to do your therapy sessions. A phone call, a video chat whilst aboard your shrimp boat, or even via messaging. Whilst. What about with lots of motherly maxims or aphorisms? They might have some nice inspirational quote posters on their office walls. Over 4 million people have used BetterHelp to start living a healthier, happier life. If you think that you might benefit from therapy, click the link below or go to betterhelp.com forward slash cinematherapy. You'll get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp so you can connect with a therapist and see if therapy will help you. Now remember how I told you that Jenny never seemed to want to go home? Well, she lived in a house that was as old as Alabama. Her mama had gone up to heaven when she was 5 and her daddy was some kind of a farmer. Jenny? He was a very loving man. He was always kissing and touching her and her sisters. And then this one time, Jenny wasn't on the bus to go to school. Jenny, why'd you come to school today? Shh! Daddy's taking a nap. Jenny! Come on! Jenny! You better get back here, girl! Where you at? Jenny! It's hard to do commentary on this scene. I've just been so drawn into it. I was going to say something about the production design, but that just feels insignificant. Pray with me, Forrest. Dear God, make me a bird so I can fly far, far, far away from here. Dear God, make me a bird so I can fly far. Mama always said that God is mysterious. A bird's flying away. He didn't turn Jenny into a bird that day. Instead, he had the police say Jenny didn't have to stay in that house no more. She went to live with her grandma just over on Creekmore Avenue, which made me happy because she was so close. It's tough. It is. It is. But this matters, especially to our discussion about Jenny, who is a fictional character, but is met with a lot of contempt online, and how we treat real people in real life. Okay. There are aspects of her and Forrest's relationship that are unhealthy. Oh, yeah. Big chunks of it. Yeah, that we're going to talk about and address. But the notion that Jenny is toxic, or even, as some people claim, the true villain of the story... Oh, f*** you. Just f*** you right to hell. Okay, yeah. Boy, that escalated quickly. I actually agree with that sentiment, and I almost never would, but... Yeah, no, you're not the guy who does that. No, but like 100%. Because everything Jenny does, from here through the end of the film... Is from this. Yeah. Is her trying to recover from this childhood, and trying to find her place in the world, and come to love herself and feel safe again. Right. And, keep in mind, this is 1960s Alabama. It's not like there's a whole wide array of mental health support. Right? Right, yeah. And so, even though I'm going to say, okay, here's what's healthy, here's what's not, here's what's supportive, here's what's not, it needs to be understood... Given the context of the time. This is still the 50s. This is still the 50s, yeah. That Jenny, as a character, is deserving of our compassion and our understanding. Full stop. You can't keep doing this, Forrest. You can't keep trying to rescue me all the time. They was trying to grab you. A lot of people try to grab me. You can't keep doing this all the time. I can't help it. I love you. Forrest, you don't know what love is. Planning a seat for a later conversation there? You remember that time we prayed, Forrest? We prayed for God to turn me into a bird so I could fly far, far away. Yes, I do. You think I could fly off this bridge? We get a glimpse here... What do you mean, Jenny? ...of the darkness inside of her, the torment and the agony. Yeah. Nothing. I gotta get out of here. She's definitely got intrusive thoughts. This is a love story, but it's not a romance. Not for most of it, no. And even when it's a romance, it's more like a sustaining friendship, that they're like, this works for us, right? Like, even when they get there. She has never felt safe unless she's with him. But there's a couple things we'll see later on. For starters, she feels like he's too simple. To be a partner, to understand what love is. She sees him as a child, but a child who is good to her and loving to her and she needs to protect, right? And so, is there some condescension there? Yeah, but that's based on her limited understanding of who he is. There's also, whenever she comes to him, it's because she needs something. Right. But he also spends a lot of the movie finding her, pursuing her, rescuing her when she doesn't want to be rescued. Yeah. Right? And so, are there unhealthy dynamics to this relationship? Sure. But you're dealing with somebody who, he understands what love is, but he doesn't understand how love works. Right. And that's the difference. Forrest absolutely knows what love is. Yeah. He's feeling it all the time. He's feeling it all the time and he received it from his mom. But how to show Jenny love and what that looks like, he doesn't understand how it works. And Jenny is just trying to survive. She's constantly trying to numb the pain through adventure, through escape, and even through putting herself in danger because maybe that'll end it all. And the sad and tragic thing is I've seen these behaviors in real life from people who've gone through what Jenny's gone through. So, what this movie does is gives us characters making choices that are wholly consistent with where they've come from and where they're at in their journey. Right. And so, the fact that, okay, they're not at a healthy place yet, great. That's called a character arc. That's called telling a story. Oh, is that what that is? Yeah. If everyone makes all the right choices all the time, they don't learn, we don't learn with them, and there's no engagement. So, she's come back. He's now successful and... Yeah, this is way later in the movie. Like an hour and a half later or two hours. So, she sees her child at home. So, property destruction as therapy. It's abandoned property. I'm not worried about it. And who it belonged to deserves far worse than this. Far worse, yeah. What a heartbreaking scene. I love this line. Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks. It's funny because it's forest and it's a funny line, but it's also deeply poignant and powerful. Yeah, it's really, really good. There's not enough catharsis in the world. For some things, that's true. Yeah. There aren't enough rocks. And that's because I was raised by movies. I mean, my parents did okay. But because I was raised by movies, there have been times in my life when that has popped into my head. And it's like that line and that scene has defined how I've tried to deal with things sometimes. It's part of my DNA. Forrest often doesn't know what to say, but he accurately gauges not to say anything. This is why anyone who's like, Jenny's toxic or Jenny is the villain of the film, I don't understand how you can see that scene and come to that conclusion. And here's what worries me about the use of the word toxic. Poisonous, harmful in an insidious or pervasive way. Yes. We say the word toxic when we're like, oh, that person has bad habits. Oh, that person hurts somebody else or has hurtful tendencies. Or that person on the outside appears selfish without actually taking the time to understand maybe it's self-preservation. Maybe they came from a terrible home and they're literally doing the best they can to just survive, much less do right by others. We don't know what is underneath. And I have met with so many people in my office that the people in their lives think they're jerks, think they're losers, think all sorts of, they'll slap all sorts of negative labels on there. And if you just listen, there's a human being that's hurting that generally doesn't know what to do with it. Yeah. And that's, I mean, from what we've seen in the film so far, the only thing I would label toxic is Jenny's dad. Yes. Jenny deserves compassion. And she gets it from Forrest, which allows her for the first time in the film to heal. And they start having these wonderful times together. Will you marry me? I'd make a good husband, Jenny. You would, Forrest. But you won't marry me. You don't want to marry me. Nope. Why don't you love me, Jenny? I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. Why'd you say nope? He does want to marry her. Yeah. She knows that he wants to marry her. He's been telling her for decades. Yeah, for like 20 years. She's saying you don't want to marry me because she doesn't believe she's worthy of that love. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Even though she's processing and dealing with stuff and throwing rocks. And healing a bit. She's not there yet. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is, the beliefs we have about ourself from childhood, they can be rewritten. It's extremely difficult and it takes a long time. And this is one of the reasons why good therapy is so crucial. Because there are a lot of people, myself included, I've been through this process where you can get new information and get new insight and accept it rationally, but at the bedrock emotional level, it's still unchanged. The lizard brain part of you. Yeah. Your frontal cortex is like, I know this is true. And your lizard brain is like, it's not. We see this with Jenny. When she's throwing rocks at the house saying, how could you? How could you? She now sees as an adult, my dad was a monster. I can't believe he did this to me. I was an innocent child. She accepts this was all him. It wasn't me. It was not my fault. She accepts that rationally, right? But that core, that lizard brain you're talking about, that core level, I am not worthy. I'm trash. He treated me like trash. I've acted like trash ever since. And Forrest, you know, I've talked with you about this, that book, Real Love by Dr. Greg Baer, where he talks about surrounding yourself with people who are able to see your worth and hold that mirror up to you. And Forrest has known since she was a little girl. You're amazing. You're an angel. You're already worthy. Now, right after this comes a moment that people point to when they say Jenny is toxic, because after this, Jenny goes in and sleeps with Forrest. Right. And then leaves before you can wake up. Yeah. And so they say, there, that's it. That's a terrible person. Only a terrible person would do that. And I'm like, okay, here's a couple things. One argument is she is a mentally functioning adult woman who has taken advantage of an intellectually disabled male. Forrest is simple. But by this point in the story, she says you don't know what love is earlier in the movie. When he says, I know what love is and I would make a good husband, she's like, you're right. Because dude is a decorated war hero. He's a world ping pong champion, collegiate athletes, college graduate, college graduate, wealthy, successful business owner. Yeah. He is a man. He is a simple minded man with a child like innocence in his sweetness, but he is a man. So let's, let's move that ethical consideration off the table completely. I agree. Then I believe for my read on it and everything we know about the character is that she goes in not to love him and leave him not, not to, you know, hit it and quit it. Like that's not what she's there for. She goes in to make love with him because she feels safe with him because she feels loved by him and because she feels sorry for hurting him. My read on it is the moment she does like once it's done all of her, I'm not good enough. It all comes flooding back. I don't belong here. Intrusive thoughts. Well, and, and sex has been so tied with trauma and being used. Yes. That now she worries that she's done that to Forrest. Oh, okay. And I think her feeling is I'm going to hurt him and I'm not good enough for him. I might as well hurt him now so he can move on. And I think that's why she takes off. Listen, Forrest, I don't know how to say this. Um, I just, I want to apologize for anything that I ever did to you. Cause I was messed up for a long time. And you, Hey, this is my old friend from Alabama. Oh, how'd you do? Um, listen, next week, my schedule changes. Young Haley, Joel Osment. I'm sure not to absolutely crush it. So this whole movie is, you know, just boomer fantasy, right? Say hi to him. Hello, Mr. This specific scene just feels like my childhood. I remember. All of this furniture. All of it. Like that. I had that shirt. Yeah. Those shoes, that TV, all of it. Like this was my childhood. His name's Forrest. Like me. I named him after his daddy. He got a daddy named Forrest too? Uh oh. You're his daddy, Forrest. Forrest, look at me. Look at me, Forrest. There's nothing you need to do. Okay? You didn't do anything wrong. Okay? Isn't he beautiful? He's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Is he smart? He's very smart. He's one of the smartest in his class. Yeah, it's okay. Go talk to him. The way the relief spreads over him. Just sitting on that shot of Tom Hanks for nearly a full minute while he's going through all of that. Sometimes that's all you need. It's a pretty easy call to make when you've got one of the greatest actors to ever live doing your scene. It's not hard. If you can get Tom Hanks, just set up a camera and go. Aw, so cute. Bert and Ernie. I'm just blown away by Tom Hanks' performance of a man coming face to face with his greatest fear. Which is, I don't read this as Forrest hates himself. I think he's accepted, like, I'm not a smart man. Yeah, he likes himself. He's always fun. I can go mow the lawn. I'm good. But, he also knows how hard it is to be as unintelligent as he is. How bullied, how tormented, and how horrible it is. This is a natural thing. If you're a parent, my greatest fears are that my kids are going to be like me in the ways that I don't want them to be. I like myself. I am at a pretty good place with myself. I can go mow a lawn. I'm good. It's just, it's simple, and powerful, and beautiful, and this is why this is why we do the show. Because movies can teach us this. They can help us be in touch with the human experience and our own emotions, and it's beautiful. So, accountability kink activated, Jenny apologizes, and when she says I was really messed up for a long time, it's not an excuse, it's a factual statement. She's not saying it's okay or justified, she's saying I'm in a better place to connect with you. That's the implication, especially when we see what happens after this. And I love the final 20 minutes of this movie, which are major tearjerker, bittersweet, but beautiful, everything about it. Especially, I love when Jenny asks, she's terminally ill, and she asks Forrest to marry her. Obviously, I disagree with if someone has fathered a child, especially somebody who would gladly take responsibility and step up, that person ought to know and have the choice. For sure. But I understand the decision of, I went into him, like I'm happy to take care of this child on my own, especially as I work through all the things I need to work through. I need to get right first. Yeah, but I love the last 20 minutes because she lets him love her. Yeah. And to my point earlier, it's not a sweep you off your feet romance. It's a, you make me feel safe. You show me respect when so many other people haven't done that. And I just feel like I belong with you. And I love their love story. I don't love all the pain it takes to get there, but where it arises is so lovely to me. There's a therapist on my Mended Light team who talks about something called the glorious and. The glorious and is we create false dichotomies all the time, right? Either my parents were great, or my parents ruined my life, right? Instead of the glorious and would say, and I'm not talking about Jenny's dad. That's a different thing. I'm just using an example. My parents were great. They ruined my life. The glorious and would say, my parents love me. They did the best they could and the best they could hurt me in a major way. So we need to make room for the glorious and because it can be entirely possible that Jenny has hurt forest. Jenny has used forest as a life preserver and that Jenny is a character who deserves our compassion. Yes. Who's doing the best she could to survive and she's not a villain. And deserves forest's love. Yeah, and deserves forest's love. It's entirely possible for forest to be a bit of a stalker. Sure. And to be overly protective without Jenny's consent and to be somebody who is true and devoted and loyal to her in a really healthy beautiful way. Yep. That's just good screenwriting. People are complex. Really is. Okay, so toxic portrayal of a relationship? No. Toxic portrayal of somebody who's endured childhood abuse? No. Toxic portrayal of a man with intellectual disability? No. He's the freaking hero of the film and he's fully able to take care of his kid and to provide and to raise him. Yep. But toxic or not? Not. Okay. Do you disagree? If you disagree, build your case. Let me know in the comments below. If this conversation changed your mind, let us know in the comments below. And what do you think of any of this? Ooh. And what movie would you like us to do a toxic or not on? What movie or character or relationship? Yeah. In the comments. So until next time. I'm not a smart man. But I know what love is. Got shrimp gumbo. Shrimp stew. Shrimp salad. Shrimp kebabs. Shrimp on the barbecue. Shrimp salad. Put shrimp into a boot. You make shrimp. Put it in your nose. Got shrimps. Just cocktail shrimp. Nose shrimp. Toe shrimp. You got tiger prawns. Chili prawns. Oh my gosh. Shrimp and prawns. 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