Apple, OpenAI & Why Nobody Makes Money in AI | The SaaS Apocalypse

The advantage in Silicon Valley was actually knowing how to write the software. And so you would kind of be dumb about a bunch of other stuff and not very professional and get away with it because you had the magic wizard hat. And now that everyone has the magic wizard hat, I think it's quite bad for Silicon Valley's like comparative advantage. Hi, everybody, welcome to More or Less. How's everyone's week going? Hey, guys. Well, Dave and I are down in L.A. coming to you live from the Upfront Summit, which is the pinnacle event of LPs and GPs across venture capital. And let me tell you, I want to know what athletes are coming. I feel like the athletes are the MVP. There are no athletes. They're always like Serena Williams, like these are like super nerdy tech people. I mean, I don't think so. But I will say, if you ever wondered who listens to More or Less, it's these people. I got a lot of podcast love today from all the LPs and GPs. So so that so that's our target audience, guys. And and hopefully they'll listen on Friday once they're back from L.A. Exciting. OK, so Britt's got the L.A. report. What's going on in the pool house, Sam? Well, I'm I'm brought to you today by Miller's Craft Meats. Miller's Craft Meats. No, but your T-shirt looks like a Taylor Swift T-shirt. It's not. It's a hot dog shirt. The hot dog revolution. What is the hot dog revolution? And is this a weird innuendo to something sexual? Oh, that's a great way to sell hot dogs. I hadn't thought about that. No, this is Uncle Breakfast Company. Steve Bookbinder's got a new meat company. I'm a proud I'm a proud and proud meat investor. You know, A.I. is taking all of the software margins to zero. So now we do meat. Wow. You know, because the A.I. can't the A.I. can't disrupt meat. Well, true, except for it can't, because I got no very cool company. Here we go. Here we go. That's using computer vision to like weigh cows and detect the healthiness of cows, which then goes into a marketplace where people can buy the meat. And so so A.I. can help sell. It's fine. I was pitched years ago on a company that would kill fish with A.I. more efficiently so that they so that they wouldn't get poisoned. You basically kill an animal. Right. And it feels adrenaline. It fucks up the meat. So this was and it turns out it's like quite difficult to like kill fish quickly, like factory farm fish. And so the meat always gets fucked up. These guys have an A.I., a fish killing A.I. So these things are happening. Do you check back in on that one? How's it doing? Yeah, I'm sure. Probably pretty well, honestly. But it's like, I don't know. It's it's the fish killing A.I. They put the fish in like a little tube and the A.I. would figure out where the brain is and then poke it. Kill it with one shot. Why can't we do this to kill like the bad fish that we don't want near our shorelines like the sharks? Well, you have to put them in like a tube first. It was like I put them in a tube when they shot a nail through its head. We can put sharks in a tube. Sharks in a tube. You don't need to do that. Honestly, if you let people like just kill sharks, people would love that ----. It's just more of a policy thing. I mean, I think they do in some parts of the world. And then there's the whole documentary about why we shouldn't kill sharks because it ruins the ecosystem, blah, blah, blah. But that's like shark. That's shark propaganda. We can get rid of the sharks. I don't have an issue. Sorry. That's what I thought. I was like, I know Jess wouldn't care because she could surf more. Yeah, this would be fine. I don't know that we could. I mean, sharks have been around way longer than we have. I feel like they would find a way. The sharks always find a way. I'm not going to **** around with a shark. That's all I'm saying. At some point, we're going to figure out how to translate shark language and the sharks are going to be like, what have you guys been doing? That's true. They're their ancient overlords. I kind of feel like sharks don't have language. They're just silent killers of the sea. Their only language is killing. I will say this, a shark versus A.I. summer Hollywood movie would be amazing. Oh, it's like Jaws 3.0. It's like there's some during shark. There's some scenario where like an A.I. has been told to kill all the sharks. And like the entire movie is an epic battle between like robots and sharks. And like, I could just imagine that being a great movie. OK, well, that's a good side project. So here's what we're going to talk about today, everybody. We're talking about the upstart summit. I need a little more color. The LP is how are the LP is doing? It's been a big week of headlines. We've got some doomsday reports out that have the markets particularly spooked. They're not reports. They're just like philosophy pieces. Sure. Philosophy piece narrative precedes all else. Everything is narrative. People only care about narratives anyway. Yes. Sometimes I read the agenda and then we circle back. Yes. So that's what we're doing. I think we should check in on the cryptos. And if they're OK, then we've got some A.I. earnings. Everybody loves some A.I. earnings. And then, of course, we have to check on all our bots and see how we're doing. But we save the bots for the end, guys. Guys, I'm totally back on Claude. Claude is where I'm bad again. OK, sorry, Dave. But first, we have to congratulate the victor, Mr. Dave Morin, who bested Mr. Sam Lessin. But how many seconds in a ski race? A second. But that's a lot. But he crashed through the finish, which slowed him down. So it would have been two seconds. Oh, that's not true. I mean, I think both of you were crashing left and right. But let's hear from the athletes. You know, over here, placed fourth in the women. Weren't that many women. So we don't need to talk about me. Because I didn't want to just put myself out there. But Dave, what is it like to once again have the top honor? Well, it's nice to still have it, I guess. And it's always good to do a ski race. My I'm nursing bruises and dealing with gait bruises, which is I guess that's what I do this time of year, every year. You need the pads. Happy to still have it. He wears the pads. He goes so hard that he bruises. I have pads, but I still I don't know. Those gates are actually pretty soft. Those are not hard gates. You might want to toughen up your skin. We've learned that you and I have different constitutions. But Sam, how does it feel like so close to gold yet? Not there. Honestly, there's one thing I don't mind. They were in the Junior Olympics team, and I contested. I am as good a skier, if not better in certain conditions. But there is no question that he was a faster ski racer than I am. That's just not like a point of contention after 20 years. Like, were you surprised how close you even got? No, no. It's about what it always is. So that's how it works. Our our son Ansel came in fifth in the kids. And I know that your sons came in higher than him. But I think there's a next generation more or less ski racing that's going to like start ramping up over the next couple of years. So watch out for my he. I think he's inspired to start ski racing. I mean, my six year old beat me, guys, and I'm a good skier. Yeah. Our six year old really ******* put down some times. It's amazing. And our nine year old did well, as you did very well as well. But the six year old just went for it. Your six year old is very impressive. The six year old is impressive. Soon enough, you and I can just like drink a bunch of beer and throw beer cans at our children as they go down the course. And like, that's going to be even more fun. We're just so close. Let's start with bringing cowbells. Let's start with that. And then we'll we'll take it from there. OK, well, we just had to props where props are due. Dave Morin, still number one. OK, up front. Like, what is the vibe like? Is it a red pill? Is it where our IPO's like? What's the vibe? The vibe is a lot of GPs and not very many LPs. Is it just sadness? No, it's always slim. I would call it new. I would call it neutral to positive. But there are not very many LPs here this year, which everyone is commenting on. Oh, no. And like every GP is here. GPs, I wouldn't expect to be here or here. So the GPs are looking for the money. A lot of GPs are here, not fundraising. No, that's what they all say. I was going to say never be fundraising. Yeah, you can't say you're fundraising. They're doing networking, so they're prepared for their next race. But I've heard a few things. One, the LPs, they finally started charging some LPs that were getting a free ride, and then a lot of them backed out. Second, there was a huge snowstorm, obviously, in the East Coast. So a lot of LPs got stuck. Apparently, I don't know if that's true. That's what I would say. And then I think a lot of LPs just don't have money right now. And apparently this is the worst fundraising market ever. And everyone's complaining about it. People are calling their funds early and just like closing up wherever they're at. So everyone's waiting for liquidity from all these theoretical IPOs that are happening. The IPOs are happening. Let's say more about why it's the worst ever. It's because the LPs are kind of at their peak level of exposure because you still see like eye-popping fundraisers from Andreessen Horowitz, Thrive. Well, endowments in particular have this denominator effect where like they're way over-allocated in venture. And so they're just not spending. Andreessen Horowitz and Thrive are raising from like the Middle East and not necessarily like universities at this point. So there is a lot of talk about sovereigns in Middle East, by the way. Like two years ago at this summit. Oh, Upfront Summit Dubai. Is that where we're going? Oh, Upfront Abu. Two years ago, it used to be like, oh, my God, I can't believe I can't believe that fund raised Middle East money. And now everyone's like, so did you go over Middle East this time around, bro? Like, yeah, yeah, dude. So that was just expected. Except for I think now all the Middle East people are tapped out. It used to be like they thought this thing was shiny and now it's like gold. To be fair, none of the people telling us that were bros, they were all women that were telling us to go to the Middle East. There was one bro. There was one bro that that told me that it was tapped out. Just saying. The Saudis don't have any money. The oil, the oil fields are dry. We have to go back. You know, you should go to Canada. We should go to the oil sands. Specifically, PIF is dry, but the UAE is not dry. It was fun to hang out with a lot of GPs, though, I will say. And like everyone to kind of like talk about what's actually going on in this AGI, AI agent world. Are you even investing in software anymore? Like, yeah. What are the GPs doing about the SAS apocalypse? Newsflash. Nobody has any clue. Everyone thinks something different right now. Yeah, it's like all over the board. A lot of people aren't hiring junior people at their firms, though. The story hasn't changed in three years. Like interest rates are extremely high. Venture capital is an asset class that, you know, doesn't return like the rest of the blah, blah, blah. And so this isn't a new story. This is the same story that's been going on for three or four years. It's just like more of the same. And there is some, I think, optimism about what's going on with OpenClaw and with AI agentic engineering and, you know, where things are heading. But I would say that most people are saying that they're doing the they've done the fewest deals that they've done in the last four quarters this quarter. And we heard that from a lot of people. Here's what's funny. And just so on brand, I have to say it is so on brand. You know what our last Slow Ventures meeting was about? Slowing down? No, we've done more investments in the last quarter than we've done in the last year, because we finally like we're just we're just we've got to be contrarian. So we raised our funds last year, not at the upfront summit. And we're ******* spending money like there's no hot dogs tomorrow. Say more about why? Yeah, I don't know. Because there's good stuff. It's like for us, it's just like when's there good stuff? And when is it cheap? Because we're cheap. Well, that's the other thing people are talking about. It's very binary if it's cheap or super expensive right now. It's either like a $50 million pre on a seed stage company or like a five. And there's not a lot of in between guys. I've done two to two and a half posts in the last eight months. I'm very proud of myself. So where are the bargains in venture postings on Twitter? I say, yes, people respond to you with their business plans. You pick the ones that are good and you fund those. But it's all about the Twitter posts to idea to ---- posting company cycle. That's how we make that's how we generate returns. On that front, Sam, I was going to ask you, you had a post about you've had several posts, but one this week about we're going to get it wrong. But when intelligence goes to zero, what happens? Yeah. Inbunded intelligence, bad business. It's like everyone's like all these computer scientists running around gleefully talking about how computers will commoditize human intelligence. And so all the humans will have no jobs. And they're kind of like sad about it. But they're also kind of proud of their power. But what they fail to realize is that, you know, the original narrative was someone would get to AGI and then that would be the end of the game is not how this is playing out. Everyone's going to get to the same ----. It's all commodity. It's all going to get priced to the cost of energy. And it's all worthless because if things are abundant, then they have no value. So I'm just like, guys, if you really like if you really believe that we're moving towards a world of abundant machine matrix multiplication intelligence, you're all in the pretty bad business. Being hard is not a moat anymore. Software is not a moat anymore. I mean, I've been I'm like having fun with this because it's been a while or have we lost can be if you can only uniquely create it. So I think this is like this is my new precision right on this, which is like these people like I was talking to some entrepreneurs actually to today who I felt like I was listening to like a 2021 pitch where they're like, we did the user research and talk to the buyers. And the problem the buyers have is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we were building software to address the buyer need. And I'm like, what universe are you living in? Right. Like if you believe that the tendency is to like all this ---- is like commodity software that can be cranked out, which is the direction where I'm not saying we're there yet, but we're in that direction. You can't build a business doing a thing a buyer thinks they want right now just because it's like and it's just software. It has to be that you're doing something where you write software. Right. And you basically give it away. Right. Or it's like basically free. You don't bank on the software, but you use it to build some sort of durable compounding data asset or trust asset or marketplace asset where like they have to keep using you because you're fundamentally, structurally better at something that's defensible. Right. Where you have a compounding advantage. But this idea like anyone who believes that they can build a business because something is hard right now, as opposed to because there's some compounding inherent advantage to it, it's not going to be attackable. It's like cray cray. We have a company in our portfolio called Pulsia that a week ago had like 100K ARR. It's a new company. And it's pronounced R. I actually was thinking of bringing Ben on the podcast because it's been so fun to watch him. We need some guests, by the way, guys. I mean, I love you all, but like we need some guests. Ben Lear was really pissed. We haven't asked him back yet again. We got some good people from upfront. I want to be our guest. That's it's like because they need to raise money. Be our guest. So he didn't even need to raise money. OK, so Pulsia dot com slash live. Is this like don't like that name? It's A.I.'s. Can I say it? No. Yes. Share with the public. Transparency. Break some news. Why? I think it's funny. Just think about words you can make with Pulsia. That's all. I'll leave it with that story. That sounds like so that sounds like a female body part to me. Just going to say, OK, so it is showing it. This this founder is a sole founder. He has no team. He just booted up all these agents to build this business. And if you go to Pulsia dot com slash live, it's the agents running the business in real time, showing you everything they're doing. And this company has gone from like 100 K.R. to like 700 K.R. in like less than a week right now. And it's like you can see the graph on the dashboard page. Are they doing a good job running the business? Is the business making more money than before? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's why they are. Yeah, it's great. It's crazy. And it it optimizes all of the spend and like efficiencies of, you know, it's running ads for like you can start businesses on this platform and it like does the same thing for you if you have a business idea and it'll just like start doing things for you and like running your business for you. So people are booting up many, many businesses. It's really amazing, actually. So if you want to start a small business, you can use Pulsia. It'll do research, help you do naming. But guys, these businesses aren't going to need capital from you VCs. Yeah, it doesn't need any capital from you. We're not saying that they need capital from VCs. I'm just saying it's an example of like this agentic universe exploding right now. And people like I think the tale of two cities is we've been talking about for a while. I'm going to make a business called Pulsia clone that just takes whatever Pulsia figures out and just re-implements it and gives me the ARR, right? And let them burn all the tokens, figuring it out. I mean, there's a tendency towards zero, right? Like there's no margin. I don't know. I don't know, man. Like Pulsia took this guy quite a while to develop. This isn't something that was just vibe coded in a week. Like he's been building this system for over a year. I believe that. I totally believe that, Dave. And it's with respect to a founder I have never met. Sam, this was a founder. We we backed it slow. I've worked with this founder several times before. He's extremely talented. He's from Paris. I'm sure it's all true. And it's not to knock him personally, but from a pure, pure first principles perspective, you know, it's like anything. It's like blazing the trail is much harder than following, right? It always is. So if someone shows you the roadmap, you can kind of get there faster and cheaper. And so I just wonder to what degree with any of these businesses that people can boot in a box or whatever. It's like even if you know it's like a token spend. It's like if you spend 100000 tokens to figure it out and I can spend 10000 tokens to clone it. Right. I'm not saying that it never works, but I'm saying like that's kind of how market efficiencies work. And the more the bots are in the game and can do it dynamically, it just will it'll just collapse margins so quickly is my sense. Well, this raises a question I had, which is our business is just going to operate in secret more because of this. And like, it's a pretty cynical take. No, it's actually how capitalism works. It's like you the whole point of capitalism is to collapse margins. In an economics book, like it's not always true that it's that efficient, Sam. And you know, definitely not. It's 100 percent. But I would say that the whole point of the bots and this whole world speeding up and the fact that like things that were hard become easy to like brute force, that is actually what the whole story is right now is like actually capitalism is getting it's like a black hole. It's gotten so good. It's outmoding itself. Right. Which is like you compete everything to the marginal dollar much more quickly because bots can do it and never sleep versus humans. There's always going to be exceptions. Right. But I'm just saying, broadly speaking, I think that's a lot of what we're seeing is that margins just compress so fast. Right. It's like it's kind of the same story with these models and like open router versus cloud code. It's like versus even like cloud bot. It's like you sit there and it might be that someone had an advantage for six months that gets eroded to three. I sit there and just flip the models on open router whenever I feel like it for the cheapest, most efficient thing. And there's just no margin to be had. Well, I mean, at no point in human history where a new technology came along that made us more productive, were we less productive? Right. Like it's always been the case that more things happen. I mean, if you look at the numbers, like there was an FT piece. I think it was this morning. New website creation is up 40 percent year over year. New iOS apps are up 50 percent. GitHub pushes are up 35 percent in the US, 30 percent in the UK. These metrics were flat for years before late 2024. And we're now seeing like jumps in the production of all kinds of different software, like across the board, like the spark lines are all going parabolic. And so I just don't know that, like, I just don't know that it's like going to be this perfect machine. But productivity and profits are not the same thing, are they? I mean, I don't not necessarily, but like, yeah, I just think that like there's more activity. People are going to find interesting things. Sure. But here's like here's another way to look at it. If you looked at the number of photos taken over the last decade or when social media is like through the roof with the iPhone, right, or like the amount of likes and comments on a service through the roof built a huge business. One person did or five people did. But the producers of all those things, all that activity, right, doesn't actually result necessarily in in like net value. It's like a war of attrition for attention. Right. It's like it's just not clear to me. But aren't you running the creator fund? Yeah, because I believe in cults that literally is investing in people that create the show. But that's not but but no, no, no. But I don't invest in them for creating content. I invest in them for building cults and communities and affinity groups. There's a big difference, right? Like I understand. But you think that there's profit there. What's to say there isn't that? I just don't think it's about token spent. It's like basically or like this is the thing I've seen. A lot of people get excited about in different things. They're like, we want engineers to spend as much money on A.I. And that's like a measure of productivity is the spend. And you're like, no, that's like not sensible. Like it should be. It's the margin that you care about. It's the profit. It's not just like you don't you don't get credit for spending more money. Right. Or for creating more things. I think that you want to look at value created per token. Right. Just like you're saying, Sam, like just because somebody creates content doesn't mean that they create a cult, doesn't mean that they create a community, doesn't mean that they create a marginal value per photo taken has never been lower. Right. Like in the world, because we take because it's so cheap to take photos, you take photos of garbage constantly. There's no actual value to it. Right. The value tends towards zero of the incremental piece of content or the incremental thing as the cost tends to zero. But it doesn't mean there's any margin and there doesn't mean any value. Right. Well, but you can use a stream of photos to create a community. No, but, you know, if you look at my camera roll, I'll take a thousand photos for one good one. Right. Nine hundred ninety nine. If I didn't take those, the world would actually be a marginally better place. They're actually negatively valuable. Right. It's the thousands that like is great. Right. And so I just think it's like this equation people are doing right now, like more tokens spent, more intelligence. Look, I'm the first one to admit I probably spend, I think, thousands of dollars a month right now on various web services that I wasn't a bunch of months ago. Right. It's all for fun. I enjoy. I don't mind. I'm learning from it. But like there's not super valuable. It's just me ******* around. Right. Like if it went away tomorrow, my life is not worse off. It's literally the same. Yeah. But Sam, I think to your to your creator fund thesis, like all the streams of digital creation that have come about because of the rise of the Internet have resulted in people being able to create new kinds of value and new configurations and new communities that otherwise, you know, maybe they would have existed because there's a magazine on the shelf in the airport and everybody who flies planes or loves cars or whatever finds each other. But I think that there's people who are making vastly more profitable businesses serving these niche interests because of what you can do with the Internet. And I would argue that the same thing is going to be possible with this new type of software creation, like you're going to be able to create businesses that are interesting and there's going to be a Cambrian explosion of them. And we don't know what they're going to look like, but they're going to come from streams of tokens that people are using to, you know, build new things. I think there's something to keep in mind, though, is like, look, on the flip side, the first thing comes to mind is the great old like Henry Ford quote, which you can have a Model T in any color you want so long as it's black. Right. We went through a phase where, like, you have colors and a lot of colors that make people fundamentally better off. Like, probably not. It's where the market drew you. Right. But like, I don't think it matters. Right. Like from like a big picture perspective, the analogy I would give on the crater fund is like, look, I 100 percent believe, obviously, put a lot of money where our mouth is and whatever, that we're in this era where people are fleeing to the margins of these like cult communities with deep, super interests in different areas. And that becomes their like point of affinity. Does that make us better off? Like, no, I think what's happened is like basically the we lost the ability to be the best basketball player in town or to have meaning or if you're the car dealer to feel really good about being the rich guy in town because you want to use car dealership, like the globalization, the Internet blew away all that and made people super sad because they realize they're not the best basketball player. They're not the richest. They have no role in their town. AI is only going to accelerate that because people sense of meaning goes away. So the market draws us towards cults and community. Right. In these extremes and weird ---- in order to like create a sense of purpose and meaning like that's all for sure. Happening. Right. Like Flat Earth makes 100 percent sense. But like, I don't know that there's any like deep value to that. It's kind of just shifting it around. I think their sense of meaning is going to go up. I think our sense of meaning is cratering right now. And so relative to where we are today. Yes. I don't know, man. I think I think I think people's sense of meaning has never been worse. I want to just take stock of where everyone's positions are. We're debating, for those who might remember, what's going to happen to capitalism in an AI era? Sam thinks it goes to zero because things commoditize. And Dave makes the point that productivity has always been coupled with greater business growth over time or new technology. Right. Am I summarizing that correctly? Well, I don't think capitalism goes to zero. I think capitalism does exactly what capitalism does, which is ring all the margin of everything and make goods as cheap as possible. Right. So who makes money in that world, Sam? That's the problem. Right. Is that if capitalism works perfectly, no one makes money. Like, that's the irony of capitalism. Right. Is that like capital? But it doesn't work perfectly, Sam. It's good. It's working a hell of a lot better than it did. There are always bottlenecks. But the people who build things that help with the bottlenecks make money. Well, but Sam's point is, if AI takes all the inefficiency out of the system, the inefficiency is where the money's not going to happen. Or does the money just go to the few instead of. Yes, I think Brits got it. I think Brits got it, which is what happens is. And again, I'm not like this is not a value. This is a statement of fact is that if you own something that is fundamentally valuable and compounding, you're going to do great. Right. If you own scarce assets that are not digitizable or replaceable, you're going to do great. But if it used to be, hey, your value, you had some baseline value as a human, as a male, which is you could drive a railroad spike. That was like super good. That was a lot of confidence in that. People felt really good about the fact they had fundamental value. That's gone now. It's just not that complicated with like white collar work. Most of it gets blown away. Right. And when that gets blown away, that means that the few compound really nicely and they're going to do great, great time to own assets, great time to like be in that advantageous position. But there's no the latter is gone and the value doesn't get shared, which is how you're going to end up with revolutions, because is again, this isn't even this isn't even I think even avant garde to say anymore. It's like, look, the people need a sense of purpose and meaning and security and safety and the value they can drive in the society. And unfortunately, there's no question that A.I. is just sucking that out of the system for most people. OK, Dave, let's give us a response and then we're moving on. There are we've talked about this before. There are four million iOS engineers in the world. There are around six million Android engineers. And there's something on the order of three to four billion users of software in the world. And so another narrative is that everyone has been stuck using the software created by the few and that people have not had their own agency over how they create and therefore consume software and that really what is happening right now is that A.I., at least over the next couple of years, is going to make it much easier for way more people to create their own software, share their own software with the people around them and maybe even millions of people, not necessarily billions. But I just think even if you only see, call it a three X improvement, like let's say it's going to be 30 million people creating software for the three billion. Like that's going to be a massive amount of value created and a whole bunch of people that feel like they have new purpose and new agency in creating software for each other. But I just don't think software is valuable. Like I think I think we have to be specific about what kind of value, Dave. Like, you know, I'm trying to think of an example like you could be entertained and that's value, but make zero dollars. Right. You could. There's something that actually helps build a business that has different kind of value. There's something that has like social capital, which has a different kind of value. Well, some software is still going to be valuable. To your point earlier, Sam, and what we talked about. But actually, there's an interesting question. What what software? Forget ecosystem, forget network effect, forget data. What software is possibly going to be valuable? Is even valuable now? No, but I mean, software coupled with like a data asset like a marketplace, like a social graph. That's the key question, Brit. Honestly, is assume that software is just like always disposable. All you're ever doing, really. This is a really nuanced point. But no, no, I think this is an important point. Like there was there's been a world for a long time where literally just doing the brute force of writing a bunch of software was in and of itself a defensible position. You're like, I wrote a lot of software. And because I wrote a lot of software and I'm not actually trying to argue. So that's going to go. That's gone. Right. So like there there's there's ecosystems you can build or trust you can build with software as an initial on ramp to it. The problem is, is that when anyone can write all the same software super ******* fast, like instantly or very close to it, it's going to be very, very hard to compound new versions that way because anything that starts working, six other people are going to instantly be able to do or just do themselves. Like it's very hard to use software as an on ramp into a new. It's not impossible. I actually think we've invested in some businesses that are doing this nicely, but it's very, very vanishingly hard to do. So it's just an interesting problem, because like, yeah, I agree. Like I've written I've committed more lines of code this month than I did last summer with cursor. I committed more lines of code with cursor than I did by hand the year before. There's more diffs being pushed. Sure. But like it doesn't like have any value. Right. Like there's no economic value to the diffs. And I would argue that what it can do for me personally writing my own software, it's not terrible, but it's not like massively valuable. Like it's just stuff I'm playing with. Right. And so I think that the bar of like, can you are millions of people going to find new ways to write personal software that makes them dramatically better off or has economic value to other people? Like, I'm just kind of skeptical. I just feel like the people were locked out from even playing this game, Sam. It's that people in Silicon Valley and around the technology community had the ability to combine software and a new business or business model or emotion around the creation of a new business. It was the combination of the two that created a lot of value over the last 20 years. And unless you knew how to speak the language of software, like you couldn't do this. And so now you will be able to do this. So what does that really mean, though, just to push you? One, I think it's bad for Silicon Valley, not good for Silicon Valley. Right. Because the reality is that was the superpower. I'd actually argue the average person in Silicon Valley is not as smart as the average person in New York finance. Right. They're not the best marketers. They're not the best at anything. The advantage in Silicon Valley was actually knowing how to write the software. And so you would kind of be dumb about a bunch of other stuff and not very professional and get away with it because you had the magic wizard hat. And now that everyone has the magic wizard hat, I think it's quite bad for Silicon Valley's like comparative advantage. Right. Like, that's just like, I think, going to happen. And then, too, the question is, when you give everyone the magic wizard software to make ----, are they going to make ---- like dramatically better than like what they are to do that? And I'm just like more skeptical than that. I don't think I think it'll happen like certain things. Maybe like maybe what happens is like stuff like terrible EHRs that have been impossible to replace. Like EHRs are a great example of a business electronic health record systems. Like, why are they so shitty? Like they're shitty because they're just so huge. Right. That no one could possibly compete with Cerner or Epic or McKesson because it literally would just take too much engineering time to compete with them. And so they've been able to like sit on monopolies that are really shitty for a long time. Does that get blown up? Maybe. I mean, they do have very powerful ecosystems, too, and they can now move much faster, too. But I'm not saying nothing will happen, but I think this utopian like now that we can all write software GDPs like I, I don't buy it. I actually have anything like a lot of people who like had a skill that was valuable and allowed them to a lot of comfort and like to feel like they had a role economically or whatever are just going to get eviscerated. And it's very possible it gets replaced by nothing. OK. Yes. This is what the whole economy is terrified about or curious about or have some opinion about. So well, this is there's a great chart. I love there's a chart I posted on Twitter. We should post in the comments. This is not mine for once, egotistically. But it's great. It's like I think it's from The Economist. And it's like the title is I could end scarcity and humanity or boost trend growth by point two percent percentage points. And it's basically like this chart that is like the line going up. And then two lines, the range goes like this to infinity into zero. But like the thing is, no one's going to ******* give a ---- or bet on the point two percent growth, right? Which is exactly what we're seeing. You're either in gold or you're in copper, right? Like or you're in both because you don't ******* have any clue. But all you know is that you do not want to be on the train of slowly growing profits, which is why all software companies to zero. Right on the narrative. It doesn't even matter if it happens. OK, so look at the chart. I have one more topic slash question for you guys. Who should buy PayPal? It's in play. You should buy it. What's going on? Why is it in play? Give me the give me the overview. Does that mean Venmo is going with us? They are one coming. Should we try to buy Venmo? You know, it was messaging message you and me, Dave, about buying Venmo. Guys, I asked a different question. Sam, come on. Let's try to buy Venmo. Wait, wouldn't only fans want to buy this, Sam? I only only can afford PayPal, even with this depressed stock price. What is the price of PayPal? Forty billion dollars. Oh, OK. Here's the problem. Here's the thing that's interesting about PayPal. It's really like, what are you buying? Like you're buying the distribution, the customer, you know, the brand. The data. Maybe the data, right? I don't think the brand sucks. I will say I don't think the brand sucks. I don't know. Isn't it just like a ton of like banking interconnect, all kinds of crazy fintech stuff that is very hard to build up over years? You know, there's only one way to know what you're buying, which is a sick Claude bot on it and say, Claude, what the **** is this thing? Hey, I don't replicate it. What part of this 40 billion dollar price can I replicate? For what it's worth, the fact that this whole idea that you could just like that's a great example. It's like someone at some point, I don't think we're there yet. Some PE shop could sit there and be like, OK, PayPal's garbage, right? Like, I bet the infrastructure is terrible. Like, I bet it's all a mess. It's really a customer set of records, like whatever. There's like a bunch of assets to it. Historically, you'd be like, I can never touch this. Like, you have to kind of build from what's there. Like, there's no way we can touch this, right? Like, it's just we're stuck with whatever it's potted in. I do wonder if you could just be like, look, take these assets, spend millions of dollars, billions of dollars on tokens and just like repot the entire thing. Like, it's just an interesting future, right? Or you can just rip apart everything. And then just plug in the customer base and like all the data into it. Plug it all in, spit up an AWS instance. But like, how would you grow it from there? Like, what's the end case for PayPal? Well, PayPal, I think, makes half a billion or half a like a shitload of money. But like on fees, right? Like, sure. So what's the difference? Like, again, what's back to the competitive moat? Look, I don't want to spend time dealing with this, but I'm seeing someone out there in terms of what businesses will exist. The business of like, buy the PayPal, spend millions on tokens and like repot it. It really is the distribution. It's like the PayPal buttons that are embedded across the Internet. If you were Stripe, how much would you pay for PayPal? Well, here's an interesting question. I was thinking about this is like in a non-Trump administration, there's no way you could buy it. Correct. This is why it's all happening now. One shot. And so that's why it's happening now is like this is the one chance for Stripe to sneak through becoming effectively a U.S. monopoly on payments. And so the question is, I actually think it's for Stripe, less about the business and more about the politics of it, which is if you do it now, the next administration is going to go apeshit. And so the question is only like, clearly you should buy it and just consolidate the whole thing. Like, and that's an amazing position to put yourself in, but not at what financial costs, at what political costs when everyone goes to gets, you know, It's actually a question for the Carlsons of like, how much time do they want to spend in Washington, D.C. in hearings in like three years from now? That's like the real question of the whole thing. Probably a little bit. Well, I don't know if I were them from what I've seen in my life. The answer is not worth the headache. Like we've done really well. We're going to keep doing well. PayPal is not really a threat. We're happy for them to continue to putter along and not spend all of our lives in Washington, D.C. But maybe they I don't know. It's much more of a personal question than a business question. And back to the like long term where PayPal goes, if agentic commerce really is where this is all going, does it matter that you have distribution across all these websites everywhere or like, you know, that you can pay check out with PayPal? You're going to have tolls everywhere else, right? We had great story in the information this week about the the SaaS stuff and all these businesses and how they're thinking about sort of toll booths on the Internet versus Meaning like I want to go buy something from Nike.com and use my credit card. Like, why would I need to use PayPal? Well, it's like, is your age? Does your agent have access to Nike? And at what terms? Yeah, but at what point? Yeah, like that's going to happen. But if you're in a big network, the terms are probably going to be better. It's just like, do any of these payment infrastructures matter when my agent just has my credit card? I think I mean, it is a great question. This is capitalism. Britt, you're describing it. If everything's efficient, there's no margin. That's how these things work. Yeah. PayPal down to zero. I also think PayPal, you know, all of it. Maybe you Facebook people will understand this more, but the whole like login race that we sort of witnessed that still think like PayPal. I log into a lot of sites. You log into sites with your PayPal ID? All the time. Wow, do you use your AOL ID too? Are you in 2002? What's happening? I don't remember the last time I've done that. Guys, I kind of want to switch to an AOL address. Sam, what are you, like, what is your wife doing over there? I like the AOL. I like Team AOL. I'm going to, like, guys, should we change our email addresses to at AOL.com? You know what I like PayPal? Does anyone want to hear from the person who's using the targeting question? Everyone I've ever emailed with in the music business is on an AOL email address. Oh, guys, AOL mail is free and helps keep you safe. Sounds like a plan to me. Go for it, Jess. I'm just saying, I think PayPal has a really great experience for just like login address cards. It's like, I think it's just one of the fastest, to be honest. And I have a lot of information stored up in there. So it's really surprising. I have a lot of new thoughts about you as an online citizen. Yeah, it's not like I'm using Outlook. Come on. Be nice. This is totally different. It feels close to me. Are you using Comic Stans also in all of your memos internally? Possibly. I don't know. But also we're all using Venmo constantly, which is part of PayPal. So I don't know. Well, I'm down with Venmo. I think they're surprised. Only fans would want to acquire this, Sam. Don't they need to build up their tipping infrastructure? Now, login with OnlyFans actually might be the future because I got to tell you that OnlyFans has incredible KYC. So I've seen that as a real thing. There we go. I bet, let's see, just straight, let's see. Over, under, on, them, actually, but I bet they don't. Those whole- They're not going. They're too smart to. It's not worth it. It totally, in a normal business environment, non-political, where miraculously they would be allowed to buy it, they should clearly buy it. In a world where you're going to be able to buy it because Trump is president, but it's clearly going to get scrutinized like you wouldn't believe, and you're going to get a colonoscopy for the next 10 years if you do it. Why would you screw up like a perfectly, you're in a great position. Why would you mess with that? I mean, because your VP of policy testifies, not you. Oh, that is not how it works on something like that. And you well know it. I mean, you show up for one session, but I don't know. I will say my spidey sense of why it won't happen is just that the nature of the leaks have been like trial balloons galore. You can just tell how these stories get out there. And this has been one, like someone has put their finger up to the wind to figure out which way it's going. So that makes me a little more dismissive of it. But I don't know, you know? A non-agentic story that we turned into an agentic story. I have a fun fact for you guys. So the Information recently published the list of all the people working, not all the people, but some of the top people working on what we now know is OpenAI Smart Speaker. Hello. First, how do we feel about a smart speaker? Is it a smart speaker or is it a thing in your ear? Because I've seen both. No, there's a whole, there's a family of app, a family of devices here. But aren't they a couple of years away? This is honestly the most distracted company in the history of the world. Like it's kind of wild. There is a lot going on. Do you want to guess who's one of the people who's working, the top people working on this project? Okay, give us a hint. Adam Q. Do you know who Adam Q is? No. Do you know another Q who works in tech? We might have a son. Eddie's son. I do know, I do know Adam. Adam's great, actually. I met Adam when he was younger. He's on this project. Oh, that's cool. So anyway, we've got a little. That's a weird family dinner. A house divided. That's an awkward Thanksgiving. There we go. You can now reach me at samwlesson at AOL.com and send any feedback there. There's a lot of ads in this thing. Can you get into it with POP3? Oh man, I used to love POP3. Speaking of AOL, also what device, what device do you think is way up in sales this year from the early 2000s? From the early 2000s? Early 2000s, there's a single device that all Gen Z people are trying to buy now. It's almost like. A Walkman. It's not a phone, not a Walkman. No, you're getting closer though. You're getting warmer. A mini disc player. A digital camera? No, no, ready? It's the iPod original OG with the click wheel. People are all over eBay buying this thing. Guys, you guys know that I already, I hate Apple, but Apple's lack of CapEx has made me start liking them because it's just so great. They're like, **** you, no CapEx. It's amazing. You're probably one of Apple's top, I don't know what the metric is, but you are a top customer of Apple. You do not hate Apple. To be clear, I literally just came from the Apple store to buy another laptop. I have like, I'm starting to have $100,000 of Apple devices here. I just don't like them. Why? Why do you need so many laptops? I was actually trying to explain this to my son because he said, Sam's son has a MacBook. And I'm like, that's because Sam buys a new MacBook every month. Well, this one actually is for another one of my sons. But yes, the point is, I am, my ratio of hatred of Apple, no, no, what would it be? Devices purchased. Hatred's strong, just sort of, yeah. Devices purchased divided by hatred is off the charts. But I love their CapEx. So I think they're coming out ahead in this battle. It's fine, it's fine. They're definitely coming out ahead. I absolutely love their **** you CapEx band. It makes me very happy. The only thing that would make me love them more and actually might turn me is if they do a big product to reintroduce the 2001 iPod with the click wheel and just go all the way back and be like, yeah, you enjoy your agents. We're releasing a click wheel and we're gonna make more money than you. Just a full analog, yeah. God, that would be the best. Acquire mod retro. It would be better than the little sock holder they have. You know, that would be better. It would be so good. The sock holder. Wait, what are people, how are people talking to these old iPods? It's like an old FireWire device. How do they even get stuff onto it? Gen Z swap smartphones for single purpose iPods is like the head. Okay, Gen Z is putting down phones and picking up iPods. I love it. Apple, release the retro iPod, you cowards. These are all headlines from news this week, literally in the last day. Gen Z is just like, we're gonna be the least productive generation of all time. They're modified with new batteries and 160 gigabyte storage. They're selling out on Etsy and eBay, just saying. Okay, well, what's old is new is new is old. Agents and iPods, all the way down. Dear friends, we should let our listeners and viewers go because they've gotten their agentic dose for the week. With that, we will say that we will see you again back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye. Thanks everyone. If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find more information about each episode in the show notes and follow us on social media by searching for at More or Less, at Dave Morin, at Lesson, at J Lesson. And as for me, I'm at Brit. See you guys next time.