Fireside Chat Ep. 180 — Is There a Moral Case for the Death Penalty? | Fireside Chat

hi everybody i'm dennis prager this is the fireside chat fireside chat auto is the wrong so oh you're getting autos we uh we asked him to have his head on the other side but he uh he's a little camera shy yeah so there's nothing we can do about it so if you want to see his face you'll have to watch other fireside chats which by the way in all seriousness is a very good idea i do believe that all 100 and 80 this is 180 wow are valuable so if you go to previous ones there's a lot of material to think about about life in all of them so just a reminder because while on occasion i talk about a topic that's in the news i will always make points that transcend that topic otherwise i don't even talk about it so i i was reading an article in the daily mail just this week here is the here is the headline serial killer and child molester joseph duncan 58 dies on death row from brain cancer decades after slaughtering three young boys and an idaho family nearly 16 years after murdering three young boys and a north idaho family a convicted child molester and killer has died of brain cancer on death row he was sentenced to death in 2007 for the idaho murder of nine-year-old dylan groan his brother slade grown 13 his mother brenda grown 40 and her fiance mark mckenzie 37 in 2011 he admitted murdering another young boy 10 year old anthony martinez duncan was also linked to the killings of two young girls in seattle in the 1990s in 2005 duncan was accused of molesting a young boy on a playground in minnesota he posted a low bail and skipped town okay so he finally died slaughtering molesting torturing so i want to read to you what was sort of buried in the article reactions of some members of the family of the slaughtered ones so this is stated by anthony martinez's mother anthony martinez was 10 year old when duncan murdered him the sun is a little brighter today said diane martinez anthony's mother my soul is lighter the world is a more beautiful place without the evil that is joseph duncan god chose to make his end a long suffering and i believe that is fitting the horror of his thoughts consumed him anthony's younger brother marcos said there is now less evil in the world god has brought pure justice for all those joseph duncan has hurt so you know almost always not always but almost always when i read about these uh these murderers i see if the article will have any of the reactions of the family members of the murdered and almost always they are like that i quote in an article i will bring to your attention in a moment an essay on capital punishment that i i pray you read that the doctor in this in the infamous case in connecticut where two guys came murdered this doctor's fam beat him to a pulp but he survived they came into his family they raped the mother and the daughters and they murdered all of them and then burned down the house and i think the girls were alive when the fire began and this doctor i don't know if he was a liberal or conservative but uh he he spoke out often that they they should die he's not often quoted on that because he a connecticut doctor tend to be assumed to be on the liberal side and they don't like to quote anybody who has these thoughts that these murderers torturers should should die i have never wavered on this issue this is one issue that i ha i feel strongly today is when i was a teenager there is something grotesque truly grotesque about the idea that every murderer should be allowed to live yes if it's not first degree not premeditated no torture i don't think every murderer should be put to death but the abolitionists think every murderer should be allowed to live no matter how many they slaughtered adolf eichmann was the architect of the holocaust he was hitler's accountant the guy overseeing the the slaughter of the six million jews in europe six million including about a million and a half children the nazis consider jewish children as worthy as of death as adults and israel which does not have the death penalty never had it uh executed eichmann i think it was the only there might have been one other it was the only person they ever executed even even anti-capital punishment israel thought you know what if you oversee the murder of millions of innocent people you don't deserve to live of course my challenge to israel was okay so if you kill millions you deserve to die but you if you only kill two then you don't why those two lives are less precious the evil is less evil for any given individual it's a it's a purely emotional a reaction on on israel's part it was purely emotional and by the way there were people leaving then and said oh no i couldn't should live and uh i never i never related to this i've always said that there is a tremendous a grand canyon-like chasm between those who think some murderers should die and those who think every murderer should be allowed to live it's almost like we don't even understand each other which may well be we may not understand each other if you go on the internet you could actually see i was on the late larry king had a very popular show the most popular america on cnn and i was a guest periodically on his show and uh he invited me to talk about capital punishment and there was a and some actor i don't remember his name and it's not important was leaving a vigil at a prison where a ma a man was about to be executed uh for murder and uh he had him on and he had me on and that man he said oh prager or something like that uh you're you're you're what is it something like licking your lips at the thought of of of of another killing at a bloodshed i mean so is as if i i enjoy the idea that that people die i it was but that was his mindset that if you believe some murderer should die you are a big fan of bloodshed and so it made it clear to me we we don't understand each other i so i said to him i'm just curious you're having a vigil now outside the prison where the man is about to get executed have you ever had a vigil at the home of the murdered i got no answer the preoccupation with murderers rather than the murdered is one of the sick parts of the anti-capital punishment movement that's why i read to you these people's reactions this is just this week in the daily mail i could i could get you this from every any week where uh they recorded the reactions of people whose loved ones were murdered or a loved one was murdered there are so many arguments that i respond to like it's just revenge it's state murder uh it's um saw an innocent may die i know all the it doesn't deter other murders i know all the arguments and there are answers moral rational answers to all the arguments so i want to bring this to your attention because if you care about this and you should so in my book of essays and if you want an introduction to my thinking this is the best of my books for that think a second time it's in paperback as you see and it's got 44 essays on 44 subjects one of them is on capital punishment i have gotten many many emails over the course of years this essay alone changed people's minds about capital punishment so i i whatever your position if you're open to reasoned arguments in a way that you don't agree with this is what you should get in and you'll like the other essays too they're they're they're very provocative now i'm not going to go through all the arguments but i will just say a few things about the the um the most common ones the the idea that it is revenge all punishment is revenge of course it is if you if if you lock a person away for life which is what the abolitionists want why isn't that revenge you'll say well that's to keep people safe come on you committed murder at 22 when you're in prison at 70 uh you're protecting society give me a break the guy's not going to murder again at 70. everybody knows that including me so of course it's revenge all punishment has an element of revenge the the the issue is not whether it's revenge the issue is whether it is just revenge just revenge has a word for its whole punishment unjust revenge is where if you step on my toe and then i stab you that's revenge that's unjust revenge okay we're where the where the reaction is excessive but this not this is not excessive why if i take your life deliberately like the two monsters who took the family of the doctors lives those the wife and two daughters why why is that uh why is it just that they be allowed to keep their lives you take my life but nobody takes your life i mean we don't even have that view about about bicycles if you steal a bicycle why should you be allowed to keep your bicycle is this something unjust i will never let's say i never have a bicycle again and you have a bicycle the rest of your life is that fair no of course not so substitute the word life for bicycle it's just not fair it's on on the fairness issue alone isn't it obvious i don't deserve to keep my life if i deliberately take yours that that that's it's elementary state murder william buckley had a great answer to state murder he said well imprisonment then estate kidnapping i found that to be very effective as to deterrence oh it doesn't deter give me a break every single punishment deters that's the one of the reasons we have punishment right drive in the high occupancy vehicle lane or the diamond lane or whatever you call it wherever you are and there's a 300 fine or whatever it might be why is that sign up there to deter people what if they said no fine if there was no fine everybody would drive in that lane so punishment is is of course it deters so the the people who say that capital punishment doesn't deter they're saying that the only crime that is never deterrable is murder that's an absurdity it's all absurd all the arguments are absurd the only one that's not absurd is an innocent may get executed that is not absurd i fully acknowledge that that's that's the that's the one argument that i acknowledge is against capital punishment that is not absurd so what you do is you have a system whereby you have reduced the chance of a mistake to virtually zero i mean there are cases where with dna where or even video where there is no question with eichmann there was no question that's an obvious this guy there was no question where there is the ascintilla of doubt then i i would say we have to wait till there's no scintilla of doubt but there is no position that society ever takes that makes sure no innocent will die we could then have no positions innocents die when we raise the speed limit from 55 to 65 what if somebody said you know i'm just telling you and by the way we're talking thousands over the course of time thousands of innocents die when we raise the speed limit why should we raise the speed limit if the only issue in life is innocence may die then we would have to we would have to ban automobiles for that matter but the greater good is that people are allowed to drive because there is so much the greater good is that we have capital punishment there's an answer to all of these things on the deterrence the best i ever heard was a man named ernest vandenhaag was a brilliant brilliant thinker and i quote him in my in in my essay and think a second time he had a very fascinating little quiz on the deterrence issue he said let's imagine a state in the united states said the following all murders committed on monday wednesday and friday capital punishment all murders committed on tuesday thursday and saturday no capital punishment do you think that over the course of time there would be an equal number of murders each day of the week i think that that makes it so clear of will it does it deter anybody of course does it deter everybody no punishment deters everybody i wish they did i wish the punishments did so i i actually think i know this is going to sound terrible but i will let the chips fall where they may i think that there is not only do we think differently we who are for capital punishment for murder and those who oppose it in all cases we don't only have a different mind in this regard we have a different heart i don't understand the heart that says let these people live do you know that i was at the i think the biggest state prison in america angola state prison in louisiana i was i was invited to go there mostly it's convicted murderers i spent the day in louisiana with convicted murderers so i was speaking to about i don't remember a dozen 10 i don't remember the exact number i wrote about it in in one of my articles and in fact in my commentary in the in the rational bible in one of the volumes i mentioned the story with the exact numbers i asked about a dozen convicted murderers at angola state prison how many of you are for capital punishment for premeditated murder i thought no hands would go up most of the hands a majority of them thought it was fitting they might have been executed themselves it's a very very interesting obviously very interesting vote i have a picture by the way with them and their hands up i i knew i needed to record it lest people think i made it up but i never make these things up because i care about truth so i thought i would just share that with you with regards to an issue that i know that my side is losing on because of the emotional pull of oh let's not kill anybody all right let's go to your questions and here we go you are about to see part of megan that's the most famous arm in america she is seated next to charlie who is our cameraman's dog charlie i find charlie adorable any way that people could see charlie i hate to talk about charlie megan you want to show uh charlie in the camera or we can put an image or you'll put an image up of charlie you know what is interesting about charlie every time i say charlie he looks up that's intelligence this is no dummy you're charlie rodrigo let me say anyway would rodrigo have a stupid dog i mean let's uh come on this is rodrigo okay all right here we go but no no it's not a blessing to have a bright dog it's a mixed bag oh i said only the best you said only the best that's what i'm reacting to i'm not sure that a smart dog is the best yeah i'm about to say something which uh like he's not brilliant okay i love him i i see i don't look to dogs for intelligence i look to humans for intelligence but dogs i look for warmth fun do you make me laugh a lot but you know their views on capital punishment he's pro capital upon oh well he's really bright to be fair yeah okay here we go question so excited dennis first time caller long time listener i'm hugh i'm 65 and i'm in virginia i've heard forever that you played basketball on madison square garden i've heard that you played with lenny can you tell everybody the story i mean the whole story because i've only heard little bits and pieces of it and everybody wants to know about you in madison square garden okay this needs a little background i did not know this was going to happen hugh hewitt my colleague and friend was making a a video at prageru uh he's a scholar of american presidents we're doing a series on american president so he's doing richard dixon so apparently somebody had an idea i don't know who it was because i'd like to kill them but uh somebody had an idea of having hugh pose a question to me instead of people one third his age i don't care about his age that's fine but that that he is skewed the balance by by a large measure uh hugh has a joy in my telling this story we have been on panels around the country a number of times and almost every time he asks me to tell the story and what am i going to say no the audience at that point is dying to hear what the story so here's the story and it i i have a lot of funny embarrassing stories in my life a lot an abnormal number so here's one of them so a little background when i was in high school i was the tallest kid in the high school at six foot four i have no basketball talent i mean you have to understand not a little not mediocre just nothing when god gave out basketball talent i was in a different line that's how i look at life what line were you in prior to birth and i was not in the basketball i was in the racquetball talent line the tennis talent line but not the basketball talent line however given my height i made the team in my sophomore year and i recall the coach saying as follows at the final cut prager made the team we have really scraped the bottom of the barrel by the way i would like to share with you my inner reaction i remember it like yesterday when he said that i had two immediately reaction two immediate reactions one this guy is an a-hole the other one was this guy is entirely right by the way that was such a healthy reaction i realized because it's hard to remember were you healthy psychologically in high school it's hard to remember but this is a giveaway that i was blessed with an ability to to ask is something true not does it bother me but is it true so did it bother me a little bit but was it true yes they did scrape the bottom of the barrel putting me on the team okay that's important that you know that now as it happens my high school every year played a game in madison square garden i grew up in new york city in brooklyn and my high school was invited because it did so well the previous year to play a game against another high school in the same league before a new york knicks nba game madison square garden now i belonged on the floor of madison square garden like i like i do uh in i don't know a polo match okay but i was i was on the t now my prayer was i would never get in the game and until 56 seconds left my prayers were answered now you must understand and i'm not boasting about this is just a fact i don't find basketball terribly interesting i love hockey i love baseball so it's not a batter of sports i just i don't find basketball others do it's not a right or wrong it's a taste issue so i wasn't following the game i didn't even know what basket we were shooting at 56 seconds left it was mathematically impossible my team to win so i was tapped to go into the game which was very rare that i get nervous very rare but the reason i was nervous was a i'm not a good player b there are a lot of people now in the stands because this is the end of the pre-mix game and c i didn't know what basket we were shooting at so i looked over to the guy next to me you have to understand i was spending the entire game making jokes i'm a pretty funny guy and i was cracking up the guy next to me and i got a big kick out of cracking the guy up you know i make observations about things going on in madison square garden the popcorn vendors the pretty women whatever it was and uh i go over to him and i go snack bar his name was isaac nakbar everybody called him snack bar i go snack bar quickly what basket are we shooting to and he just laughed for about 35 years i thought he was being mean playing a joke on me not telling me what basket we would shoot to finally at a class reunion about 40 years after graduating i went over to him and i said snack bar why didn't you tell me what basket he said i thought you were joking which makes perfect sense who the hell doesn't know what basket you're shooting to so we go on to the thing there's a jump ball i ran to the wrong side and i will never forget i was standing sort of alone next to one of the referees and the guy looks at me and i'll never forget he goes a kid are you some sort of schmuck and i thought same thing with the coach it was a disgusting thing to say but i was some sort of smoke what the hell am i doing on the wrong side of the court by the way it has now entered the legend that i shot at the wrong basket that is not true it is not true for a very good reason i did everything possible to avoid contact with the ball and and so that is what happened on my only time playing in madison square garden and for reasons unknown to me this brings hugh hewitt great joy all right next all right jeff wait is that right jeff and marietta where is that georgia right think so i really enjoyed listening to your talks however i was a little offended by something you said on your january 14th fireside chat offense might be too strong a word you said and correct me if i misquote that those of us who are secular non-religious have no passion or misguided passion is there no room in this world for the passionate agnostic or atheist individual the way you describe the liberal as being indifferent to the left i am conservative but indifferent to the religious right i am however a vicious defender of freedom of religion have you ever thought about that perspective is my passion for anything not of sufficient caliber thank you and i still look forward to listening to many more fireside chats you're a good man i have never ever ever ever ever said that secular people do not have passion i never said it i never hinted it they have passion though in many many instances certainly not all for substitute religions for secular religions that's what marxism and communism and fascism and nazism and uh and environmental i'm not lumping them all as a moral equivalent i'm just giving you secular ideologies that people have passion for and liberalism and can and sometimes conservatism and environmentalism and feminism all these isms they're all secular substitutes for religion people have a tremendous amount of passion secularism doesn't kill passion it kills religious passion that's uh well it doesn't even kill religious passion because you have a secular religious passion so anyway i never said that but it's very dangerous what happens when christianity has died in europe after world war one look at what we got fascism nazism and communism look at america what are we getting now fewer americans the first time in history that a minority of americans regularly attend church first time in american history is america better off obviously some people think so really you look around in america you think the moral chaos that we're living through and the the sustained violence of 2020 uh i i'm not optimistic for an america uh wherein there is a decline in the judeo-christian value system by the way my my column this week i hope you see is is explains in in the size of one column what judeo christian values are nobody explains them everybody mentions them but nobody explains them i explain i gave 11 examples of those values so i'm glad you asked it and i thank you and i and i'm happy you're on our side and you're defending a religion look i had douglas murray in this room douglas murray is a gay douglas murray is agnostic or secular and douglas murray is one of the greatest defenders of western civilization and douglas murray has spoken about this terrible hole that has been caused by the death of religion in the west and it's being filled by some pretty bad stuff so uh he who is not religious understands this and i hope everybody does there's a hole left when this goes are we already there wow just had time it goes fast that's a very good sign by the way and look who's showing up snoopy come on say hello yeah yo oh stupid that might have been a trifecta today folks three dogs snoopy oh forget it he's looking for his mother and that's the end of life he lives for her he sits at the window looking out the door for hours waiting for her to come back by the way i'll end with the very funny story this happens every single time my wife and i will come to the door you know coming home at night let's say and the two dogs are waiting at the door very excited i have the key i open the door they go right by me to her for all intents and purposes i am a pillar a marble pillar it's a humbling moment every time i enter the house with my wife that's fine i i live with these things you got to know when to laugh in life really you have to know when to be hurt and when not to be hurt i should do i should talk about that once you see you determine whether you're hurt i decided not to be hurt by the coach or that referee i thought it was hilarious when the referee said what are you some sort of schmuck it cracked me up inside it's a healthier way to live anyway uh do please check out think a second time this uh i don't talk about this book much but this is really it's these 44 subjects i cover are really important and it is a good introduction to uh the way i think about a lot of matters okay everybody and it's a joy to be with you and i will see you next week i'm dennis prager this is otto bye thank you for watching this video to keep prageru videos free please consider making a tax deductible donation you