The Book Club: The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan with Allie Stucky | The Book Club

Welcome back to the book club. I'm Michael Knowles. This month we will be reading one of the most popular books ever in the history of the English language. This is one of the best-selling books. Other than the Bible, this might be the very best-selling Christian book in English. The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan. I will be joined by my friend Allie Stuckey, host of the Relatable podcast. Allie, thank you for being here. Yes, thanks for having me. I am not flattering you, because flattery is a terrible temptation, as we will learn in the book. But this book, The Pilgrim's Progress, is not only one of the most popular Christian books ever, not only one of the most popular books ever, but it is specifically a very Protestant book. And not just any kind of Protestant, it is a Puritan book. A book written by a Baptist preacher named John Bunyan, a man who was persecuted, not by the Catholics, but by the Anglicans in England. He was imprisoned. He wrote this book in prison. And I thought, listen, I'm a Papist. I'm a Catholic. How am I supposed to lead a discussion of The Pilgrim's Progress? I said, I need to bring on a Protestant, and I said, truly one of the smartest, most articulate, most coherent Protestants I know, my friend Allie Stuckey, is going to come on. So before we get into the theology of it all, can you just tell us what happens in the book? Yes. So as you said, The Pilgrim's Progress, written by a Puritan preacher, John Bunyan, while he was in jail, he had broken a law that said that you were not allowed to preach to more than, I think it was five or six people, outside of the walls of an actual official church of England. So he was in prison writing this book. And it is an allegory for the Christian life. The narrator is an unnamed, kind of omnipresent man who falls into a dream. And in his dream, he sees a man, the protagonist, named Christian. And he goes on his life's journey towards salvation through sanctification, the pursuit of holiness, the pursuit of Christ. And on that journey, he experiences trials, difficulties, temptations. He runs into friends who are an encouragement to him. He runs into foes who represent different kinds of temptations that are very common to man, common to the Christian. And then through it all, we see that Christ is with him, that Christ is the one who is strong enough to bring him not just to the point of salvation, but deliverance from his burden, which is his knowledge of sin, and then ultimately redemption from the destruction that he is fleeing from. So that is, in sum, the pilgrim's progress. We meet a lot of people along the way that still, 400 years later, very relatable to the Christian life today. And when you say it's a Christian allegory, you don't mean it's a metaphor or you see symbolism here. It is as direct an allegory as there can be. The main character's name is Christian. Right. His wife's name is Christiana. Yes. His four children, his four sons have biblical names. And along his journey, he's going to the celestial city, the celestial country, and he falls into the slew of despond, for instance, or the valley of the shadow of death. And he comes across different characters who don't have ordinary names. Their names are their type. Right. The flatterer. Yes. Mr. Talkative. Yes. These sorts of things. Yes. It's very on the nose. And I think John Bunyan probably did that because this was really one of the first novels ever, or at least a novel of this kind. And so he was very on the nose and very straightforward about what he was talking about. So I think Christians would really understand. And so they wouldn't be guessing and wondering, what did he really mean by this? But especially those who had read the Bible themselves, they would be able to catch the references. As you said, the names are not kind of these allegorical names. But for example, the first helper that he comes by is named Evangelist. And he evangelizes to him, not only encourages him and edifies him in the gospel, but shows him the way to go. And that, of course, is a theme that Christian is very often discouraged. He's very often lonely. He's very often confused. Sometimes he gets off what is called the straight and the narrow path. And he is disciplined for that in a variety of ways. But always someone who is supposed to be a representative of Christ, an ambassador of the gospel, comes to him, lifts him up, encourages him, and sets him on his way. Now, I really do enjoy this book. I obviously have some theological differences with John Bunyan, who is very anti-establishment, very anti-Church of England and Catholic Church. One of the villains in the book actually is the Pope. There are these two giants, Pagan and Pope. And Pagan is dead. And the Pope is sort of decrepit. He doesn't have much power anymore. But still, you got to watch out. And then in the second part of the book, which is the story not of Christian's pilgrimage. Christian's already made it to heaven, but his wife's pilgrimage with their children. Then you see the kind of these giants coming back to life a little bit. So that's a fear. Still, all of that said, I find a lot in this work that is very, very edifying, even with a few theological quibbles. Now, I would imagine you are more likely to agree with more of this book. Yes. Do you go all the way with him or no? You have some differences. So I'll tell you the parts that I really like about it and I find so refreshing, especially when you compare it to a lot of Christian literature today and just Christian thought today. And some of the things that I found a little troubling or a little confusing, maybe. So what I like about it is that he describes the Christian life as a struggle and as this pursuit of holiness with, of course, the help of the power of the Holy Spirit. It does seem today in a variety of forms that people believe that the Christian life is kind of a matter of just saying, please forgive me for my sins and help me not go to hell and then moving on and doing whatever you want to do. And this makes really clear that it is a pilgrimage, that our whole life is a struggle towards, towards heaven and towards the promised lands. And that loneliness is part of the package. That persecution is part of the package. It's actually part of the promise. It's a reminder over and over again that Jesus said in this world, you will have trouble. Not you may have trouble, but you will have trouble. Also we're told, and I believe it's first Timothy, that all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, not may be persecuted. And I do think many Christians today think that we can possibly escape trials, that we can escape difficulty, that we can escape hardship, or that these things are indications that the Lord doesn't love us or doesn't have favor upon us. But really, this book is comforting in the sense that, okay, this is a Christian. He has been saved. He has been marked by the Lord. He has been given his passport, as it were, which is a scroll in this book that allows him to get into heaven, eternal life. He has been, he knows the gospel. He's been saved by this knowledge and this saving faith. And yet, he goes through these struggles. He gives in to temptation, and he is tortured in some cases. He's beaten almost to the point of death. He has to remember that he has promises that will allow him to escape from the trouble and from the despair that he is often wallowing in. And that's an encouraging reminder to me, honestly, that the hardships that we endure, the persecution that we endure, whatever that may be, is not a signal that God is angry or that he's abandoned us, but actually that this comes part and parcel with the Christian life and that it is all worth it. And not only that, but it's doing something, that nothing is wasted in the Christian life. Everything is used for our and to make us yearn for heaven more. That's what really this is about. Now, some of the things with which I disagree, or maybe someone who has read this maybe more times than I have, or is a bigger fan of John Bunyan than I am, would probably maybe rebuke me and say, no, I've gotten all wrong. But it does seem at times that the Holy Spirit is not present with him. Even as a Christian, when he goes through the valley of darkness, when he's going through some of these tribulations, it does seem that he is just kind of wallowing there all alone. Sometimes he'll have someone named help or named evangelist or interpreter, who we later find out is the Holy Spirit, who will help him and guide him and point him along the way. But Jesus says, lo, I will be with you always, even till the end of the age. And it's kind of strange, I think, in Pilgrim's Progress, how Christ is seen as kind of this far-off character. Now, sometimes we find out that he, like in the second part, that he was a character in the first segment. Unknown. He appears by another name, but later you find, oh, that was Jesus actually. Yes, I did find it a bit odd that it seems like these characters come in and out of the Christian life rather than steadily walking with him and even carrying him, which is how I kind of envision the Christian life, that Christ is always with us and that he is always giving us the strength and the wisdom that we need. And so that part I thought was a little strange. The Christian life isn't quite as lonely as John Bunyan sometimes depicts it in this book. I think that's a great point. That occurred to me as well. And it's a little bit of a knock on the Puritans. You know, Puritans, I think, are given to that kind of vision of things, so it's not surprising. You would say it's typical in the literature, but you read that and you say, well, I don't know that that's quite how I would envision the Christian life. There are other theological issues that one could delve into, but I think it's worth pointing out how the experience of reading this book is captivating because so much of it rings true. Even if you have some theological quibbles with him, I obviously have a lot, and yet I'm reading this, and for instance, the temptations that he falls into, almost in order of him running into them, the despair or the wantonness or all sorts of things. As I'm reading it, I think, you know, I myself in my own life, I acknowledge we're in spiritual combat all of the time, and just when you've knocked off one temptation, another one comes and hits you. So I just had a child not long ago, so I'm not sleeping very much. I'm given in a little bit to sloth, say. The moment you knock off that sloth, well, gosh, here comes, I don't know, lust. You knock off the lust a little bit, oh, here comes pride. That one's around the corner, too. Everywhere, just when you think you're safe, you realize, no, well, we are here on this earthly journey, journeying toward the celestial city. You are never going to be totally safe. These temptations and these sins will come at you, often from where they're least expected. I think this book has the same effect for me as The Screwtape Letters does, and I think that you guys have done The Screwtape Letters on The Book Club in that you read it and you see reflections of yourself and your own misunderstandings of the Christian life and your own temptations and your own false beliefs. And as you said, there are a lot of traps or a lot of bad people, bad characters in this book that I see reflected in my own life or that I could see myself falling into, like Mr. Talkative. Mr. Talkative, he loves to talk about that which is profitable, and he loves to talk about the Bible. He loves to talk about that which is true. And of course, that can be a fruit of genuine faith, but when faithful, who is a friend of Christian, puts him to the test and really tries to get, what is underneath all that good talk? Do you actually put any action to your words? Well, then he gets uncomfortable, and he not only gets uncomfortable, but he gets very defensive. He gets very angry. All he wants to do is talk about it. You and I, in what we do, we like to talk about things, but I think it's always a good test for us to say, okay, are we talking about this because we know it's good and right and true? Or is it something that is really reflected in our own lives? We talk about what people should do, the character that they should have, what we think is good. Is this something that I'm acting out on my own, in my own life? And faithful puts Mr. Talkative to the test by saying, look, we are going to be judged ultimately not by what we say or what we think we believe, but by what we do. Now, of course, we believe that Christ's blood covers that if you are indeed a Christian, but when weighing the goodness of our actions, it's not about what we say, but actually what we do. Of course. And a counterpoint to Mr. Talkative here, who I agree, just like you, I read Mr. Talkative. I said, yikes, I talk for a living. It's not good. I got to make sure I'm actually doing the things that I'm saying one should do. Then there's Mr. Ignorance. And Mr. Ignorance comes along and he's an amiable fellow, and he's talking with Christian. And I forget at that point if he's talking to Mr. Faith or Mr. Hope, but one of them, one of the theological virtues. And Mr. Ignorance doesn't like going too far down the rabbit hole. He doesn't want to be pinned down too much on the details of religion. And ultimately, when the pilgrims really put him to it, Mr. Ignorance says, look, you have your religion. I have my religion. You do you, I'm going to do me, and let's agree to disagree here. And when Mr. Ignorance said that, I thought, oh my gosh, is he the voice of our generation? Is he the spirit of our age? Because so many people, even many religious people, will tell you, oh, look, there are all these different religions. It's all going to work out fine for everybody. Just mind your own business. Yeah. And Mr. Bynes, which is a similar person, he said, look, I love religion. I like religion when it's paraded in the streets and when it's getting trophies and when it's getting accolades. And he had some friends that I think it was like love the world and love money, something like that. And they liked religion for what it could deliver to them, if it delivered them good reputations, if it delivered them comfort and ease and riches. But of course, when they fell into difficulty, then they didn't love religion anymore. They didn't see pursuing God as an end in itself, but actually just as kind of a vehicle for their own praise and their own accumulation. And I also think that is something that's very popular today, especially when you see people that kind of engage in some form of spiritualism, kind of new age spiritualism. And they might call themselves Christians or they might call themselves religious, but really they worship a God of self and pseudo religion. And it changes depending on whatever the latest cultural whim is. So it's kind of amazing that 400 years ago, people were struggling with the same thing. Well, the more things change, the more things stay the same. And you see this in all of these characters he's encountering of the sort of shallowness of their pursuit, of their pilgrimage, of their religious journey. And he ends up in a place where you mentioned the trials and the humiliations that the pilgrim will go through. He ends up in a place that is the name of a very popular magazine, or at least a once popular magazine. He ends up in Vanity Fair, which and that phrase, Vanity Fair, I think comes from this book. It's the fairgrounds of all the vain things of this world, which are so enticing and so fun and ultimately mean nothing. Yes. So this is after you mentioned humiliation. He had just come out of the valley of humiliation and the great accuser, the destroyer, tempted him or not even tempted him, just threatened him with destruction. Yeah. By just reminding him of all of his sins and all of his inadequacies, ultimately Christian fends him off with the sword of the spirit. He had just been given, I think at the wall of salvation, he had just been given the full armor of God. And so he used that against the destroyer, against the accuser. And then you think, okay, great, he's going to be able to have some ease, but immediately he sees Vanity Fair and he's with faithful at this point, his good Christian friend. And as you said, this is where all of the carnal pleasures are luring them in and they resist it. And I thought this was interesting and also a reflection of our culture today. They resist it. And it's not like all of the people there who you would think are just distracted by their fun, say, okay, fine. You can be a fuddy duddy. You can be an old Puritan and not have any of our fun more for us. They get angry. They get angry that they're not engaging in their sin. They get angry that they're not approving of and also participating in their trespasses, which I think we see today. Tolerance has turned into like a demand for acceptance and celebration. And that's exactly what they endured then. And then they were put on trial and faithful. He endured this fake sham trial. I believe that the judge, his name was, it's one of those other on the, uh, Lord Hategood was the judge that put faithful on trial. And then those who stood against, uh, faithful were envy and superstition and there were false witnesses against him. And then faithful was ultimately martyred for basically calling out the sins that people were participating in, in Vanity Fair and for not participating in them himself. And certainly, while many of us hopefully will not be martyred for our faith in the United States, we certainly can relate, uh, to the anger and the ire and the bullying of people who are angry that we're simply not celebrating their sin. Well, of course, I mean, this was from the left for years now. They've said, you Christians, you traditional people, you need to tolerate all sorts of things that generally you disapprove of. And, uh, the Christians have said, it's not about toleration. You guys are gonna, you're gonna start screaming at us the moment that we don't get out in the streets and celebrate with you. And they said, no, no, no, you're talking about a slippery slope. That'll never happen. And then of course, what immediately happens if you now do not wear the rainbow flag on your jersey, if you do not go out and affirm all of these kinds of wild things that the left is foisted on us, that Christians generally disapprove of, you are labeled a hater. You could be deplatformed. You can lose your job. You, you will face persecution. Well, that's always the way it's been. That goes back a long time. I am, I'm even reminded of the character atheist. When atheist shows up, what's the first thing that atheist does when he meets the pilgrims and they tell him what he's, what they're going to do. They're going to go search for the celestial city. He laughs, he laughs, he bursts out in laughter. Yes. Yes. I think that's interesting because again, that is, that is the MO of atheists and agnostics today to simply scoff, even if they don't have an intellectual defense, they don't feel like they have to because they believe that the default intellectual and sophisticated position is to be atheist. And so they don't feel like they really have to have their apologetics and their theology in order. And that we have to be the ones to defend that something has to come from something when really their claims are much more absurd, but that's all they have is derision and mockery. And how interesting is it? We think today confronted by our atheist culture, we think, oh, well, it's only because of the new modern science or whatever. I don't, they never tell you exactly what scientific discovery it is that supposedly disproves God, but they say it's because of the modern science. Now, now, today, it's ridiculous to be a Christian. This was 400 years ago and Christians were treated exactly the same way by exactly the same people. And guess what? It was true a thousand years ago and it was true 1500 years ago. It was true during the Roman empire. Yeah. The Christians were, were not only persecuted, but, but were mocked and humiliated for their beliefs. How stupid must you be? Yep. And I think that naming something like that and also reading it, um, in a book that was written 400 years ago, really, um, it emboldens and it can strengthen Christians today because I do think that we have the temptation. I have the temptation of thinking that we live in a scarier and a more atheistic culture than has ever existed. And with all of the different social, cultural, moral, political, technological developments, that truth can't stand a chance, that goodness can't stand a chance, that it must be the hardest age that it's ever been to be a Christian. But what he is describing here is probably a lot harder than any Christian in the United States, at least today, has had to endure. So if this is what the Christian life looked like 400 years ago, I think sometimes as conservatives, we think the world has only gotten worse and worse and worse. If this is what the Christian life looked like 400 years ago, 2000 years ago, then surely we have the strength and the truth and the clarity and the courage to be able to endure what we're facing today because we're not living in 17th century England. That is true, but we have the same Holy Spirit, the same help, the same God, the same hope, the same celestial city, and therefore the same strength, the same ability, and the same calling to do what the Christian in this book did. Now we've been a little patriarchal, Allie, I think because we focused almost entirely on the first part of the book. This is Christian's pilgrimage. Something really bothered me at the beginning of Christian's pilgrimage. He's in the city of destruction, and he's got his wife and his kids, and he tries to get them to come with him on this pilgrimage because he says, look, we're all going to be destroyed. We got to get out of here. We got to go find some salvation, and they make fun of him, and they mock him, and they won't go, but you gave up that easily. Then you just go, and you leave your wife and your kids to destruction. Come on, pal. Bring your family along with you. There is a second part, and that's after Christian goes up to heaven, and he's hanging out with God, Christiana and the kids go up, and it's almost a repeat of the story. They go to the same places, more or less. They meet a lot of the same people. Why does John Bunyan repeat himself, or does he? Yes, so there are a lot of similarities. I think he answers a lot of questions in the first part. He reveals that some of the characters in the first part are actually Jesus, are actually the Holy Spirit, so he gives us some clarity and some answers. Even if you don't read the second part, I am thankful that it exists because I agree, the part that made me saddest was when he said that he had to abandon his wife and his children. I mean, as parents and as spouses ourselves, can you imagine anything harder than that? And yet, Jesus does say, look, I have come to divide you, and if you do not hate your father and your mother and your spouse and your children and take up your cross and follow me, you're not worthy of me. So right away, I like that it starts that way because right away, okay, you see that he did the hardest thing that any spouse or parent can possibly think of, and that is pursue something else, even if it is at the expense of the people that you love the most. On page one, he does it. Yes, exactly. But how wonderful that we see that through his faithfulness and through his testimony and through what I'm guessing was the persistent evangelism to his family, that they do come to know Christ and they do take hold of that same faith and hope. And they do go through their own winding trials, and we see some new characters. I think it's good heart and valiant, and we see them slay giants on their behalf, and then ultimately, we see them cross over the river of death, or some of them, not all of them. And good heart is this sort of guide. Christian, the man traveling along with his male friends, he doesn't get this guide and protector good heart, but Christiana does get this protector. Yeah, that's true. Is that sexist or is that just chivalry? I don't think it's sexist. Now, I do think that probably Christian should have something like that. And as we kind of said at the beginning, I mean, Jesus Christ is our advocate. He is the one that is standing in our stead before the Father when the accuser tries to say, hey, she's not worthy. She's done this. She's done this. She's not worthy of your kingdom. Jesus is saying, yeah, but I paid for her with my blood. And so, he is the one slaying the giants on our behalf. And so, I think we see that kind of Christ-like figure in the second part that we don't necessarily see continuously in the first part. Maybe that was purposeful. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with Christiana being a woman or not. There is this other character that you reference, Valiant, and it's from Valiant who listens to the truth and he is Valiant. That's his name. You get one of the most famous lines, and I'd like to read the full thing. I seem to recall Ronald Reagan quoting this in a speech. I can't find the speech. I can't pull it up anywhere, but it did stick with me then, and it stuck with me reading the book. Who would true valor see? Let him come hither. One here will constant be, come wind, come weather. There is no discouragement shall make him once relent. His first avowed intent to be a pilgrim. Whoso beset him round with dismal stories, do but themselves confound. His strength the more is. No lion can fright, can him fright. Heal with a giant fight, but he will have a right to be a pilgrim. Hobgoblin nor foul fiend can daunt his spirit. He knows he at the end shall life inherit. Then fancies fly away. He'll fear not what men say. He'll labor night and day to be a pilgrim. Even that phrase in there, the right to be a pilgrim, really struck me. That is his right that no one can take away, and it brought me back to the first part of the book when he and Hopeful are in the dungeon, and they're being held in the dungeon by the big angry lord of the castle who's beating them half to death. Yes. And he and his wife, the lord and his wife Diffidence say, kill yourselves. Yeah. You should kill yourselves because I'm going to hurt you even worse. I'm going to keep torturing you and starving you and denying you water, and you would be much wiser just to kill yourself. And they don't do it. And Christian and Hopeful, they say, gosh, it would be really, I would much prefer to kill myself right now than to go on in this torment. Yes. But obviously, especially just the very name Hopeful, you can't kill yourself. That's despair. That's the loss of hope. And ultimately, it's really that final death. It is up to them. Yes. As long as they don't give in to that despair, no tyrant, no matter how awful, can take that promise from them. Yes. And in response to Hopeful saying, look, we can't kill ourselves. You kill someone else, you kill their body, you kill yourself, you kill both body and soul. And they're half to death. Like you said, they've been beaten to a pulp. And then Christian, it's like he just remembers suddenly that he has a promise in his chest, which then works as the key to let them out. And I remember reading that and thinking, are you kidding me? You have this whole time. With the key? Why don't you pull it out? And you allowed yourself to be beaten. But man, obviously, that's intentional by John Bunyan, because that is true for us too. How we allow ourselves to wallow in despair, or we allow ourselves to be trapped by sin or oppression or whatever it is, when really, we are not trapped. We have that right as pilgrims. That is who we are. That's our identity. We have been given the right, as scripture says, to become children of God. And that is what we are. That promise isn't something that's far off that we're running toward. We have already been given it. And so we really can reach inside or allow the Holy Spirit to remind us of those promises and be liberated from the torment that we deal with. That doesn't necessarily mean that we are going to escape all earthly trials and physical pain, but it does release us from the despair that those things can tempt us into. Of course. And we forget it often. We forget it often. But don't forget, this is a happy reminder, a happy reminder of the promise that we have, a happy reminder of the travails that we will endure, happy reminder of the temptations that can really, really screw us up, that can really pull us off the right path, and a reminder of that city to which we are going. He is a pilgrim, and we are pilgrims, because this is not our home. This world, this fallen world under the prince of darkness and the father of lies, this is not our final place. We know this because we don't get to stay here forever. We're going to take a dirt nap and turn to worm food not too long from now. We have a home. It's elsewhere. We need to keep our eyes on that home. We need to remain focused on that journey, not be distracted by vanity fair or anything else along the way, because the promise is far greater than any of the enticements of this world, all of which will fall to ash and vanity. Yes. God is gracious, and he is patient and merciful. Even if John Bunyan didn't communicate this perfectly, he is with us until the end of the age. So every bit of despair, every temptation, every time you do fall into sin, every time you do listen to the voice of the accuser, it does not mean that hope is lost. It doesn't mean that you have lost your salvation, but it simply means that the Lord is using this to sanctify you, to make you more like him, and one day every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and this journey as pilgrims will be over. And that is what we are not only anticipating, but running as quickly as we can toward. John Bunyan could not have said it better himself. Allie, thank you for being here. Until next time, I'm Michael Knowles. This is The Book Club. Happy reading. Thank you so much for watching this episode of The Book Club on PragerU. PragerU is a 501c3 non-profit organization, so we rely on donations from viewers like you to keep this content on the air. 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