The Book Club: 1984 by George Orwell with Dave Rubin | The Book Club

Welcome back to The Book Club. I'm Michael Knowles. The book this month, very timely, 1984 by George Orwell. But first, in our fast-paced world, it is tough to make reading a priority. We all know that. Well, at least it used to be. But at thinker.org, they summarize the key ideas from new and noteworthy nonfiction, giving you access to an entire library of great books in bite-sized form. You can read or listen to hundreds of titles in a matter of minutes, from old classics like Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People to recent bestsellers like Jordan Peterson's Twelve Rules for Life. If you want to challenge your perceptions, if you want to expand your horizons, most importantly, if you want to sound smart at parties, go to thinker.org, that is T-H-I-N-K-R.org, no E, no time for that, to start a free trial and put your mind in motion. Here to help me understand the world we're living in, I'm sorry, I mean 1984 by George Orwell, the great Dave Rubin. Dave, thank you for being here. Knowles, it's good to be with you. I mean, that is not a joke, what you just started there. This is the world we are living in. I want you to tell me- I was thinking of calling you Winston, and you can call me Winston throughout this. We should just call each other Winston. We are living in- Because we're all Winston now. Yes, Winston, the protagonist of 1984. Tell me if this sounds to you like a paragraph of a novel, or like a news story about our world right now. Wait, before you even read the quote, you could literally pick any quote from the book, and it is applicable now. So whatever you're going to say, I am going to agree, but I will jump off. I've noticed this one actually, some people have been picking up on this. 1984 is having a sort of renaissance these days. Every record has been destroyed or falsified. Every book has been rewritten. Every picture has been repainted. Every statue and street and building has been renamed. Every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the party is always right. Sounds like life on Twitter. Yes. Right? I mean, an endless present, and that was part of what the system was trying to do. The Ministry of Truth and Winston worked there, and he was one of the people that was basically using language to confuse people. He was intentionally, I mean, the whole purpose of all of this was to get people to question everything. What is 2 plus 2 equal again? I mean, this was the ultimate purpose. I want to get to this language, because I think this is the real key. Just a quick summary for those of you who haven't read it yet. And if anyone hasn't read it, I guess you're getting the real life experience of it, but it's still worth reading to help you understand, especially your world right now. It's about Winston. As you say, Winston is this guy. He's living in a totalitarian state called Oceania. It's all run by one party. He's in the outer party. He's still in the party, but he's in the outer party. There's the inner party that really runs things. He works at the Ministry of Truth. What does the Ministry of Truth do? Spreads lies. Rewrites the past. Branding. It's all about branding, right? It's all about branding. They have this area where they torture political dissidents. What's it called? The Ministry of Love. And the totalitarian government is referred to as Big Brother. Big Brother is always watching you through screens, through TV cameras, always monitoring you. Winston has this sort of illegal love affair with this girl, Julia. And they're just trying to escape this modern totalitarian madness. Finally, they're caught out. Doesn't end well for them. Does not end well for him. And then, as you just alluded to, at the very end, they're torturing him and torturing him and trying to break his spirit and trying to break his mind. How do they do it? He fears rats. And they put, basically, a contraption on him with rats. And they're trying to, in effect, get him to sort of out himself and her and the people that are rebelling, in essence. And he basically points to her and causes them to put the rat trap on her. And that's sort of what we're dealing with right now. And there's also this point. Once he says, go get her, go get her, there's this intellectual admission where they say, what is 2 plus 2? Yeah. And what is 2 plus 2 is 4. Yeah, no. No. 5. You have to say, you have to believe that 2 plus 2 equals 5. Look, everything, it's so bizarre to see this right now because, or to read this. So I originally read the book, I think I was in 11th grade. This is like 92 or something like that. 93. It's a long time ago. And then I reread it over the last couple months. And on Twitter, it's like everything that we're seeing, nothing means anything anymore. The way words are constantly used. Everything that we hear, without making this too political to the day right now. It's hard not to. It is hard not to. But so much of what we hear about from the left is exactly what 1984 is about. So words are violence now. But violence is not violence. These are things that they create to actually make us question everything. And then once you question everything, well then gender is up for question. And all of the things that should be settled are no longer settled. And then what I completely forgot about that I found was interesting is that one of the things that they're also trying to sort of untie. That the Ministry of Truth is trying to untie is the idea of time. And it does feel like right now that time feels a little weird. It's partly because of the lockdown. Partly because we're trapped at home. We're all on social media. But doesn't time feel sort of strange right now? Like anything could happen at any given minute. And I think that all leads to a sort of sick society where two plus two eventually will be five if they just tell you. There are so many of these contradictions or absurdities that come up. I mean the three slogans of the party that you've always got to repeat. They've got it on the back of the book right here. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. This could be the chance of protesters that we see marching all around the West. Quite literally. I mean one of the things that I talk about all the time now is that it's the anti-racists who are the racists. Right. Right? If all the people that are running around now proclaiming that the rest of us are racists. They're the ones that are pushing racism into society everywhere. They're the ones that are saying black people should have special dorms. And that white people shouldn't be allowed to have certain jobs. Or that they shouldn't be considered equally. Those are racist notions. So we live in a time where everything has been flipped. And for the few of us that have a little bit of the spark of Winston. It's like how do you make sure you're not one of the people who at the end is going two plus two equals five. I'm not sure. I will tell you one other thing. I'm actually watching The Handmaidens Tale right now. Did you watch it by any chance? I did. I've seen some of it. So I'm watching it right now. The parallels to 1984 are absolutely incredible. Because this is exactly what the main character June is going through. And it's so funny because the show came out a couple of years ago. And everyone kept saying this is what's happening in Trump's America. Except I'm watching it now in the midst of what's happening with Black Lives Matter and everything else. And it's like no. It's all the left. It's this America. It's not Trump that's doing this. It's the other guys that are doing this. So I think more than anything else. There's a beautiful thing when you read a work of fiction. When you can go holy cow. This was not only. It must have been true or true enough to have made sense when it was written. What year was the book written? The book was I guess written in 1948. Published I think in 1949. Okay. So 49. I mean think about that. 70 plus years ago. But yet feels like literally everything we're going through right now. That's an incredible compliment to a writer and to a work. And he articulates this concept. I mean I think the great one you use is that the people who say they're anti-racist are the ones who are acting in a racist way. And the way George Orwell describes it is he calls it double think. So double think is this idea that you hold two contradictory ideas at exactly the same time. So you can never admit that the ideas don't make any sense. So for instance we have to get rid of America's terrible past which had segregation. And the way we're going to do that is institute segregation. Through segregation. Look think about it this way. What's like the hottest book on the left right now? It's White Fragility. Yes. What's the subtitle of White Fragility? I don't know what it is exactly. But in essence it's something like how white people can blah blah blah. That's racist. That in and of itself is racist. Forget white fragility. Well but then if you say how white people the implication is all white people are this. Whatever this is. That is racist. So they hold these two ideas that are completely at odds with each other. And they hold it because that allows you to believe anything basically at any given time. This is the key. So many words just have entered our language because of this book. Words like doublethink or newspeak or Big Brother is one. And newspeak is the one I want to focus on. Because newspeak is political correctness. And the theory of newspeak is that the party Big Brother is going to get rid of all the old language. That people have used for centuries and centuries. And replace it with this new ideological party approved clean language. Which sounds robotic. It sounds so crazy. Instead of saying something is bad you'll say it's ungood or double plus ungood. Right. So what does that sound like? Right now it sounds like he, him, they, her. All of these things. So again it's like wow how did he do this in 1948? I'm not exactly sure. I think there's some relation to you know it's after World War II. And there's obviously some parallels to the way the Nazis used language and things like that. But it's still pretty remarkable. And I guess the premise as you touched on. Yeah. Is that if I change my words. If I change the language. I will change reality. This ties into the insistence of the government. You have to believe that two plus two equals five. Because if we all really believe that. Then that will be true. And it seems to be the same thing when you call a he. When you call him her. You have really substantively changed who he is. Yeah well what's interesting about this is. I think when most people. Maybe not my conservative friends. But when most people think of like the totalitarian authoritarian state coming. They always think it's going to be a far right state. Like the idea in 1984 is that the ministry of truth. Like the whole apparatus is somehow thought of as far right. I think is the idea. If you like something like V for Vendetta. It's the idea is that it's this far right political machine. That's silencing people and everything else. And yet look what's happening in reality now. In reality now it's this far left thing. That's seemingly bubbling up from the bottom. And that's an interesting flip on this. So it's one of those things where it's like. There's so much truth. And yet there's still these like offshoots. Where you can kind of go oh. It's not exactly right. But it's like it's pretty much there. Well even slightly beyond 1984. But still on the themes and still on George Orwell. George Orwell wrote a very famous essay. Called politics in the English language. And in it he says that the word fascism. No longer has any meaning. All fascism means is something I don't like. And when you look around today. That word probably more than any other word. Has been abused. Beyond having any meaning. Well I think one of the interesting things. Is the way that we all. We're all guilty of it at times. The way we all can use these words. To mean more than they're supposed to mean. Or we widen them. But look this is something we've talked about forever. You call everybody a Nazi. Congratulations now nobody's a Nazi. You call everybody a fascist. And then when the real fascists come. Nobody is going to be listening. Or paying attention. It's the boy who cried wolf in essence. So I think there's just sort of this endless. There's this endless destruction of everything that's true. I guess that's really what the book is about. In many ways more than anything else. That there is truth. There actually is truth. And there actually is history. And there actually is time. And a chronology that. Shows us what is real. But if you can destroy that. If you can destroy that fabric. You can get people to say 2 plus 2 is 5. And it'll make sense. So I'm obviously frustrated. As I read this. Because I look around and I say. Oh my gosh it's really happening. There's this one bit of the story. That a lot of people don't talk about. But there's this recurring old nursery rhyme. That Winston and Julia keep going back to. And the line goes. Oranges and lemons say the bells of St. Clements. You owe me three farthings say the bells of St. Martins. And they seem to get this real joy. This real pleasure out of going back. There's just some nursery rhyme. Certainly doesn't sound like anything. That now the party controlled language. Talks about anymore. So there's this other part. Where Winston is getting down and dirty with Julia. Right. She tells him that she's been with lots of men before him. And instead of being repulsed by that. Winston gets excited. And he says. Anything that hinted at corruption. Always filled him. With a wild hope. In this clinical. Ideological society. How is it that actually a little bit of corruption. Fills you with hope. Well because humans are supposed to use their imagination. We're supposed to hope. We're supposed to dream. We're supposed to have passion. We're supposed to have sex. We're supposed to live. We're supposed to do all of those things. You're supposed to make mistakes. You're supposed to do things. So that you can either realize they're good things to do. That fulfill you. Or maybe they don't. Or they do in the short term. And then you have to reevaluate all those things. But in a super sterilized world. When you can never break that conformity. Then the tiniest hint. Oh I'm sleeping with somebody. Who's really been around the block. Is suddenly really exciting. And by the way. We see many versions of that right now. With political correctness. Which is sort of like. If you keep everybody completely politically correct. All the time. Suddenly we'll all start. Wanting to be not politically correct. Now I think that's good right now. We need more people to break out of it. But the idea of political correctness. Generally comes I think like most things. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. When people say they want to be politically correct. They want to make sure that people aren't offended. Now you do that too long. And what are you left with? You're left with just nothing. You're left with an inability to do anything. So when we watch people cancel each other. On Twitter. And we watch mobs and everything. Go after everybody. In a way they're trying to pretend they're pious. I'm so great. And if anyone else steps out of line. And says something that I don't like. I don't believe. I'll destroy them because I'm so much better. Because I'm so much better. And because human nature can be perfected. Of course it can be perfected. We're on the path there. If only we had the right language. And the erasure of time. And the erasure of statues. A little more power is always good. This is why when I think of newspeak. When I think of Winston talking about the corruption. It reminds me that political correctness. Which is our own version of newspeak. It doesn't just divide along ideological lines. Perfectly. Or rather should I say partisan lines. It's not like it's only democrats. And no republicans. Actually what a lot of surveys show. Is that a big dividing line is wealth. How much money you make. People who would be considered by the lights of our society. Elites. Tend to be much more okay with political correctness. Than people who are at the lower run. What's the difference between an old crazy woman. And an old eccentric woman. It's money. If you're an old woman with no money. And you're babbling on. You're the crazy cat lady. And if you're an old woman who's rich. Oh she's eccentric. What a character. That's it. That really is it. This is one of the famous lines. That Winston writes in his diary. If there is hope. It lies in the proles. The proles like the proletarians. Or the lower class of people. They don't really follow all these rules. They're kind of ignored by the party. There's another word for that. The deplorables. The irredeemables. That's exactly what it means. It means that if there's any hope. It's that the people who the system. Constantly throws out. Constantly mocks. Constantly tries to destroy. They're the only ones who will be able. To say something true. Even right now. Just listening to what goes on. In the political ether. I hear a lot of people being like. I'd love to pull a John Galt one day. And just disappear all together. Come from Iran. I assume you've done Atlas Shrugged. Not yet. But we have to do it. But that people will just self select out. And you know who will be left? The only people who will have a flicker. Of anything interesting to say. Will be the deplorables. This deplorable issue. I think comes up. I think there is a sense that. The elites are just not even aware. The party is not even aware. Of the seeds of it's own destruction. But there is a little bit of a performance. Kind of feels like now doesn't it? It does. But the performance is what worries me even most. You mentioned Twitter. On Twitter it seems like every day now. Some random person is plucked out of obscurity. We are all whipped up into a frenzy. To hate this person. They did something in Central Park. I didn't like that she yelled at a guy. Or whatever. And now this person is the villain of the country. And then it's gone. Goes down the memory hole. Another term that comes from 1984. Is completely erased and forgotten about. There is a category in 1984. Called two minutes hate. Every day. All the people in the party are whipped up. To hate the villain. The rebel. The Goldstein. They put him on the TV screen. I just hate this guy. Two minutes. Then it's over. Then you move on. Sort of feels like the purge. The movie the purge. You get one day a year to do all the horrible stuff. That's what the movie the purge is about. And yes this is what we do. We find these people who are nobodies. That have no effect over your life. That you've never heard of. They did something you don't like. Destroy them. Really it's never about them. It's always about the signal. That that sends across the world. Which is you don't want to be that guy. You don't want to be that guy. There's one other thing I want to touch on Winston. As he's working at the ministry of truth. As he's obscuring reality. And changing words and all this stuff. He's miserable. And I think that's actually really interesting. Because I think if we look at the people. Who are the most politically correct now. They are miserable. Because that is not. It's anti-human in many ways. To be so against thought. To be so against someone joking. Even if that joke crosses. Whatever your subjective line is. To be so against that. Is actually the reverse of what being a human is. Which is about using your mind. So I think it's just sort of interesting. That the people that were the ones. Putting this stuff into the world. Were miserable. Are the most miserable. And Winston. He needs to take shots of this gross gin. Just to get through the day. But then when he's got this love affair. This little secret hideout with Julia. All of a sudden he doesn't need the gin. He doesn't need the substances. And by the way. They've done a couple articles. I've seen about Facebook censors. That all become alcoholics. And miserable and suicidal. I'm not kidding. Because they're literally doing the exact same thing. They're looking out on Facebook. And they're going what can we get rid of. What word is okay. What word is not okay. Do I kind of like this guy. Then I can let that one slide. Do I don't like this guy. So we got to take care of that. And they become miserable because of it. But the most depressing part of this book. I thought we'd already gotten there. So it was funny. Because when I was rereading it. I was like there has to be something at the end. That will kind of want us to continue. Especially people like us. That put our thoughts out there. And it doesn't really give you anything. The most depressing part of this book for me. Is that there's this rebellion. This revolution. The two minutes of hate. Goldstein has a secret book. And the book is going to tell you all about that party. And it's going to. So Winston. Meets these other people in the inner party. They give him the secret book. He reads the secret book. And it turns out it's a set up. Or if it's not a set up. It's still a set up. Because he's given the book by a member of the inner party. That in this system. It even has it's own opposition. Within it. There is no escape. Even that opposition might be a false hope. Or a safety valve on the utter repression. What are we supposed to do with that? Well I think this is what people would say. Is sort of like our political system now. Is like this sort of fake duopoly. It's like this fake. We've got the democrats. Or the liberals. And the republicans. The conservatives. Whatever. And it's like it seemingly is that those are the only choices. And yes. As long as the system only allows those choices. Well then those are the only choices. But are those really the only choices? You gotta believe this. Or you gotta believe this. I mean no one really lives their life like that. But unfortunately the whole system. And in this case everything that he was led to believe. Leaves you with that. And that uncomfortability is even worse. Knowing about it. Like it's easier to just be a guy on one side. Or the other side. Whatever it is. And then just run with it. But to know it and then be like. What do I do now? Because you look. And it seems like no matter who wins the election. No matter which party wins. Certain things just keep on happening. We lose more and more of our freedoms. We rack up more and more of our debt. The culture keeps going more and more in one direction. It doesn't seem to matter who wins. I dare make a pro-Trump comment. I don't know if I'm allowed. We'll certainly be censored by the Ministry of Truth on the internet. Somebody's not going to be happy about this. But in many ways when I was rereading it. I kept thinking man. What they needed was a Trump. You know what I mean? Because what was Trump? Or what is Trump? He just sort of broke through all of this. If you're talking about how do you break the duopoly. How do you break the false choices? How do you break political correctness? All of these things. Who has been the greatest breaker of those things? It's been Trump. So it's like in a weird way. If the book had ended and there suddenly was this person. Who was just willing to do it. For some very bizarre reason. And perhaps he was orange and had weird hair. Then I guess you see some hope. But you don't get the orange hair. I hate to be more pessimistic than you. Because I see the same sort of thing you do. I think part of the reason why people in both parties. Don't like Donald Trump. Is because he broke the rules. He messed up the system a little. Though I do think it sort of remains to be seen. If that will have a lasting effect. Or if the culture and the politics. Keeps careening in the same direction. The question I want to leave you on. How do you think he did it? What was it that he saw. In the 1940's. That could predict our present moment. Yeah so I thought a lot about that. Because I had a feeling you might come at me with a question like that. And as I sort of referenced earlier. So he wrote it in the late 40's. So you're coming off of World War II. So I don't know specifically. And I'm sure people have thought about this a lot. And I was really trying to think through. I think maybe more than anything else. What makes good literature. Or what makes a good movie. Or any piece of art that's true. Is that it is able to capture something. That is timeless. And the struggle constantly. This is why the struggle right now. Even though we think of it as Democrat versus Republican. Or Trump versus Biden. Or whatever it is. It's like all it really is. Always. Is you versus the system. It's the individual versus the system. And sometimes the system is better. Meaning it's more open to freedom. And more open to individuals. And sometimes it's not. And I think that. That is what was carried through. From 1948, 49. Into 2020. And it feels right now. To know that the system. Is very against the individual. You know. I think that might be. Do you have a better answer on that? I don't know if I have a better answer. I think your point is right. That George Orwell. Is this individualist. And he's kind of looking out at the system. Though I again might have a more pessimistic view. On your point about literature. It would seem to me we can see. Communism fails. Because it just totally misunderstands human nature. The way communism ends up. Is so different from the theory of communism. They're so disconnected that it can't work. And the same thing is true of fascism. I think the question we're. Maybe trying to deal with now. Is that true of liberalism too? We've got these three great ideologies. Of modernity. Fascism, communism and liberalism. We thought that liberalism was the last one standing. It's the end of history. That's what we were told at least. By the people at the end of the cold war. Well maybe history takes a little bit longer. To resolve. This is what you're bringing to me at the end? You're handing me the. Is liberalism dead at the end of this thing? This is my life's work. I know this is the real thing. This is an incredible sham to get me here. You thought 1984 was depressing at the end. This is the most depressing part. I'm really glad you brought that up though. Because that is. The part of me that is fearful. Of what is happening right now. Is that the experiment of liberalism. And the experiment of free speech. And enlightenment and all those things. That it really does feel like. It's getting to it's end right now. That the end of it is. That this more liberal. Supposedly. This ultra lefty progressive thing. Will come in through the soft spot of liberalism. The openness of liberalism. And dismantle every statue. Destroy every university. Crush every newspaper. All the great achievements of liberalism. And that's exactly what this book is about. So how he saw it. I guess yes. It is a connection between 10 years before. The Nazis were literally burning books. What are we doing right now? We're not burning books yet. Although NPR did put out that thing. About how you have to decolonize your bookshelf. Which in essence is a modern book burning. They're not going to write burn all your books. But they will say get rid of bad books. 1984? Right. This is it. I wish that we could have a greater hope here. But we can't. So what is the hope? Because as I was reading the end. I kept thinking maybe I'm forgetting. That there is a glimmer of hope at the end. Here is my hope I suppose at the end. Which is a little bit of a plug for this show as well. You cannot remain a slave. If you are literate. And you read. You can't do it. This is why all the totalitarian regimes in history. Have tried to burn all of the books. Have tried to stop people from reading. Have tried to have anti-literacy laws. And what George Orwell is describing here. The reason it resonates. Not just now. Perhaps at a particularly Orwellian moment. But it has resonated for so many years. Is because he is describing something that we know is real. Something that we experience to varying degrees. Throughout our entire relationship to politics. And as they burn the books. As they topple the statues. As they erase the history. As they memory hole everything that we cherish. That we thought we could rely on. There is still a little bit of hope. I think for those of us. Who are willing to crack the spine of a book or two. And see the vast difference. Between reality. And all the propaganda. That the system is spewing at us. Noles I want to let you end the show with that. Because it was a perfect beautiful ending. But I have like ten things I want to say about it. Well lay it on me. Let's do it. This idea of the memory hole. I wanted to mention it before. But don't you feel like that is something we are also going through right now. That we forget. Wait a minute. Two years ago the biggest thing was Michael Cohen testimony. Is going to take down Donald Trump. Or Russian this. Or Ukraine that. Or remember a little before your time. Y2K was going to kill all of us. 5G is going to kill us. And net neutrality was supposed to kill us. And we killed what's his name in Iran. We killed Soleimani. And that was going to start World War 3. But they all get memory hole. We suddenly were outraged. For this period of time. And also even something more perverse. Like they all happen in these very short bursts. Also. And then once that period of time is over. You never do it again. So remember me too. It burned hot for like three weeks. And then the second we like close the book on that. We move on. It's not as if those things still aren't happening or something else. But that and then the other thing was that. The phrase Orwellian. It's not just the other phrases. But his name actually became a phrase. That tells you something really good happened. That tells you he wrote a good book. Yeah that's a good book. In the spirit of telling people to go out and read books. Yes. In the spirit of not burning books. You should tell them to read your book. Don't burn this book. I'd like to believe. I would like to believe that my book. Is in many ways the last. I mean. I don't want to be so hoity toity. It's better than George Orwell. It's better than 1984. It is Rubinesque. Rubinellian. It's large. Rubinesque. They would describe a large woman. She was Rubinesque. But it is. In many ways. Everything that I wrote about in that book. Is fighting for the same things. That Winston ended up sort of giving away. At the end. So read 1984. Don't burn this book. It's a good book too. It's a good sequel. If I end up in a contraption with rats on me. I'm putting you. I'm going to be on the inner party. I'm going to be the one who ratted you out. Dave thank you so much. We could talk about this all day. But we'll have to move on to do your book next. I'm Michael Knowles. This is The Book Club. See you next time. This video was made possible by a generous donation. From the William S. Knight Foundation. Thank you so much for watching this episode of The Book Club. On Prager U. Prager U is a 501c3 non-profit organization. So we rely on donations. From viewers like you. To keep this content on the air. Please consider making a tax deductible. Contribution today. To help keep this content coming. Thank you very much.