Plato vs. Xenophon: the Apologia of Socrates 🇬🇷 (Socrates’ Defense)

Hi everybody, hope you're doing well. I'm Jack Sparrow and I can turn to Jonesing for Janus or Jonesing for Janus if we want to be alliterative. Janus being the two-faced Roman deity in where we're potentially naming the month January and sort of portals and transitions. And so I'm going to be doing a comparison video each week and this week it is Socrates. Specifically the Apologia or defense of Socrates when he's brought to trial in 399 BC in Athens. And in one corner we have Plato and in another we have Xenophon and one of these is vastly superior to the other. Real quick context, the Peloponnesian War between Athens and its allies and Sparta and its allies has gone very poorly ultimately for Athens. There's a period where the democracy, which we need to use that word loosely in terms of who was part of that democracy and participant in it, is overthrown by 30 tyrants. Ultimately some semblance of democracy is restored but things have not gone well for Athens. And Socrates is brought to trial by a small group who are essentially offended by his behavior. They are tired of his behavior, almost for lack of a better word. In my reading Plato views himself as the prime true student of Socrates, the one who understood Socrates most closely and wanted to advance his thinking and his ideas. He writes a huge number of dialogues of which Socrates is a major character in most of them. The Apologia is actually one of the early dialogues. It's one of the very strong early dialogues along with the Crito which immediately follows the Apologia. And in my reading it would be a minor which I find very funny. Xenophon also views Socrates in a very positive light. Both of these view the condemnation and ultimate execution of Socrates by the city of Athens as an enormous injustice. Xenophon really views Socrates well. If Plato is a philosopher and very much views himself as a teacher, Xenophon has a lot of other stuff going on. He's also a soldier. He writes an economics treaty in here and puts Socrates' name on it or voice within it. And Xenophon was not actually at the trial because he was on the Anabasis, the Persian expedition of which this is probably his strongest work. So diving in, what can we say about Socrates within these two works? The Socrates that emerges is arrogant. And Xenophon actually includes that almost like in the first paragraph. Let me tell you about why he was arrogant. Socrates is on trial for his life and yet he doesn't make a big stage production. Plato is much more explicit about all these things. But Socrates doesn't take it as a big stage production. What we see is a man who gets up, he does speak to the jury, he makes a defense. But it's in such a weird way that he almost invites the condemnation. Xenophon makes it explicit that he does indeed invite the condemnation. Whereas Plato shows it more as Socrates is going to be true to himself and consistent to himself. And therefore if that leads to condemnation, so be it. And so that's a key difference. There are some subtle differences where the two explicitly compare. It should be noted that Xenophon takes all of Plato's Apologia, the Crito, and the Thaito. Three dialogues of which Plato writes approximately 100 pages. Xenophon compresses that into 10 pages. And he compresses the entire dialogue of the Crito, which is about 30 pages from Plato, to one sentence. So Xenophon is much more concise. If you want a very quick 10 page summary of what's going on, I'll try to throw PDF links of both of these in the description box. Xenophon's your guy. But the Socrates that emerges and the type of Socratic thinking that emerges is much stronger in Plato. It's a much more full portrait. Plato can be a very strong, dramatic, poetic writer. And he gives those words to Socrates. Plato is actually a character in this dialogue, as mentioned as being in the audience during the trial. Many of the dialogues don't actually have Plato as someone who's sitting around in the forum at a marketplace as Socrates is having these discussions. Plato's not there. He is actually explicitly mentioned as being in the arena for the trial when Socrates is on trial. So a couple of quick, you know, jump outs. So this is how Xenophon begins. I think it was worth recording what Socrates thought about his defense and the end of his life once he had been summoned for trial. Now others have written about that trial, and they have all touched upon his arrogant tone. So it is clear that this is how Socrates actually spoke. But what they didn't make clear, and without it, the arrogance of his tone is bound to appear rather foolish, is this. He had already decided that for him, death was preferable to life. And so that becomes this motive that Xenophon attributes to Socrates very specifically. And that's how he opens his description of the defense. He gives pretty much a summary of the actual trial. There's not a lot of dialogue within it. We don't really have a strong cross-examination of the main accuser, Miletus, by Socrates. He does mention a key event, which is Socrates' ardent pupil and friend, Chirophon, going to the Oracle of Delphi, the Priestess of Apollo, and asking, Hey, is there anybody who's wiser than Socrates? And this is one of those key differences. In Xenophon, the response from the Oracle is that there is no one who is more free, no one who is more upright, and no one who is more just than Socrates. Plato has just a very simple, there is no one who is wiser than Socrates. And Socrates sort of opens his defense in Plato with that statement about the Oracle, and talking about how, look, all I've been doing is trusting what a god told me. I'm on trial because I corrupt the youth and I don't believe in the gods and I introduce these new gods. And what are you talking about? My entire career has been an effort to follow the word of a god that everyone in here worships and test and try to make sure that there truly is no one wiser than me. And he goes on to say, I have tried that. I went to people who I was told were really wise and I found out after a couple of questions, like, they didn't know a thing. Neither do I, but I know that I don't know anything, therefore, well, yeah, I am wiser than that person. And then I went to some poets and I talked to them and realized, like, there might be good poets, but they can't explain everything of what they write. And it's just sort of this, like, divine gift that comes to them. And it's implied that that is sort of this sense of, like, you know, they're divinely inspired by a god to create this poetry. You know, they thought that because they were good poets, they knew a lot of stuff, and I don't know anything, but I know that I don't know anything, so I am wiser than that. And then I went to, like, you know, artisans and craftsmen, people who have skills, and they are much more knowledgeable about me than those skills, but they think that because they know that, they know everything about everything else, and they don't. So I guess I am wiser. And so that's, this is how Socrates is opening. He's just sort of like, well, here I am. And you know what, I'm a fool, but so is everybody else. Not a great strategy. And so, you know, that's a key explicit difference that was brought up. And I'm going to pause on Xenophon for a minute, because as I said, Xenophon summarizes everything, and there's not a huge amount of meat to what's in here. You might have figured out already which one I think is more valuable. You know, I had mentioned that Xenophon has this idea that Socrates has decided that, I shouldn't say that, I'm going to pause for a minute. Xenophon has said that Socrates goes into the trial having decided he wants to be condemned, and he doesn't need to live anymore, and so whatever. He's going to allow the, you know, Athens to declare that he'll need to be executed. And the rationale Xenophon gives is that Socrates has lived this upright and just life, and free life, and he knows that as he gets older, he's mentioned in Plato's being 70, that as he, you know, becomes older, he's not going to be able to maintain his upright and just life. He's going to make mistakes, and he doesn't want to make any mistakes. He's done so well so far, he's going out at the top of his game, essentially. That's his view. That view, specifically in 2020 and 2021, probably is a very hard one for any of us to digest. But it's what Xenophon presents. Plato presents a very different view. I want to read a couple of passages because I think they make it clear where, like, Socrates is coming from. He goes, The truth of the matter is this, gentlemen, where a man has once taken up his stand, either because it seems best to him or in obedience to his orders, there I believe he is bound to remain and face the danger, taking no account of death or anything else before dishonor. And this idea that if he is supposed to be wise, and he's supposed to, you know, be this person, then that is who he will be. He will be consistent and true to himself. The sort of motto at Delphi with the Temple of Apollo where the priestess, the oracle was, was know thyself. And so Socrates is going to know himself. He's going to be true to himself, whatever the cost. And that passage is about ten pages in, and that's about halfway through the dialogue. And that's the first indication we get of where Socrates is saying, like, I will stand and I will continue to speak what I've been speaking. I will continue to ask the questions I've been asking. I am not going to, like, you know, cow to this. I'm not going to kneel to this. And, of course, it infuriates a jury. There is a very short, quick example in the Apology of Biplato of a famous Socratic question where he just asks a person questions. In this case, it's his accuser Miletus. And so within the Athenian trials, the accuser and the accused were their own lawyers. And so there was a whole cottage industry of sophists and teachers who would teach, you know, the wealthy of Athens to declaim and to use, you know, clever phrases and quips and how to do these different things to be able to bring lawsuits against, you know, your neighbors or defend yourself from lawsuits against your neighbors. And Socrates says, I don't know how to do any of this stuff. I'm sorry. I'm just going to talk the way I usually talk, guys. Please forgive me. I've never been brought to trial before. I don't know what I'm doing here. And, of course, he then proceeds to eviscerate Miletus in a cross-examination. Again, everything he's saying is, like, true to himself and accurate, but it's also not creating a beneficial impression towards the jury. He's accused of corrupting youth. He's now exhibiting the very attributes that they're terrified of being able to cross-examine people. And he's providing such cogent arguments. And within it, he says, you said, I don't believe in gods or I don't believe in any gods. You know, are there some gods? No, you don't believe in any gods. Well, wait a second. Would you say that it's possible to care about human matters but not believe in human beings? No. Is it possible to care about matters involving horses but not believe in horses? No. He goes, so why would I care about all these supernatural matters if I don't believe in supernatural beings? Because now, of course, in the aftermath of the Enlightenment and in the past 200 years, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would argue that Socrates doesn't, you know, succeed in that. But within his cultural context, he's just slighted and repeatedly. And so that brings us then as well to a second passage here. Here we are. Where Socrates begins to, you know, he sort of makes it clear now. I've made it clear where I'm at, where I'm standing. You know, I'm not going to bring people out and I'm not going to bring my kids out and family out and just have them weeping and wailing, you know, right behind me so that you'll feel pitiful for me. He goes, neither Miletus nor Aenitus can do me any harm at all. They do not have the power because I do not believe that the law of God permits a better man to be harmed by a worse. You know, I do not think so. I believe that it is far worse to do what he's doing now, trying to put a man to death unjustly. And so he makes it clear, like, he does not view himself as in the power of his accusers or even the jury itself. Again, not the impression. And so ultimately, you know, both texts do agree on this. Socrates is found guilty. Now, this is a weird Athenian trial anecdote. Miletus asks for Socrates to be condemned to death. Socrates has an opportunity after this to now, you know, and this is all in one day, one session. There's not a series of appeals. Socrates has a chance right now to offer an alternative punishment. In Xenophon, this is a critical difference. In Xenophon, he says, I can't offer any alternative punishment. To offer some lesser punishment that I know is bad would imply that I am guilty and I'm not guilty. I can't offer anything. Well, in Plato, he just, and that seems arrogant, but in Plato, he goes all out. And he goes, well, honestly, I regard myself as, you know, doing a great good for the city. And, you know, I think I should be rewarded. If you consider it, like the people who are Olympic champions get to eat for free at this, you know, temple down here. I think I ought to get free meals as well. I don't, I barely have any money. I've been poor because I've been going around. I haven't taken any fees from students. So that's what I think I should get. But, you know, I can't do that. So I guess I'll, I'll offer to pay, you know, a hundred drachma. That's all I can afford to pay. And this is where Plato is explicitly mentioned in the dialogue. Plato, Crito, Crito's son, another friend who are all there. They, like, rapidly figure out how much money they have, like, on hand. And they're like, Socrates, make it three. He goes, okay, my friends have said, I'll offer to pay a fine of 3,000 drachma. You can collect it from them. The jury decides that Socrates is guilty. And, you know, the way he goes out is the way he has been throughout the entire trial. And this is strictly his trial. The faido is the dialogue that includes, you know, his final day when he does drink the hemlock, his final conversation. But as he leaves the trial, this is sort of, you know, what he says to everyone. He goes, In battle, it is often obvious that you could escape being killed by giving up your arms and throwing yourself upon the mercy of your pursuers. And in every kind of danger, there are plenty of devices for avoiding death if you are unscrupulous enough to stop at nothing. But I suggest, gentlemen, that the difficulty is not so much to escape death. The real difficulty is to escape from wickedness, which is far more fleet of foot. In this present instance, I, the slow old man, have been overtaken by the slower of the two. But my accusers, who are clever and quick, have been overtaken by the faster, by iniquity. And he goes on to say that, you know, death for him is not something he fears. It's either going to be an oblivion, in which case it's a good night's sleep, or he's going to get to go hang out with Homer and Hesiod. And he, you know, he wants to go talk to, he mentions Ios, or Ajax, the son of Telamon, or the greater, and Palamedes, two others who were put to death after an unjust trial. And then, you know, that's sort of his, he leaves the jury, and he's taken away. Now, what do we, you know, we saw two very arrogant portrayals. One in which we have this, he went in knowing what was going to happen, and he didn't care because he was ready, and he was ready for his lifetime. Whereas in Plato, we have this very, with this much more like strict, I'm going to keep following the logical consequences, be what they may. Because we have such a large portrait of Socrates, and we have to be careful, only really the early dialogues, including the Apologia, and including the Crito, probably have the most, the closest to Socrates. Later on, Socrates is sort of this actor whose voice produces Plato's ideas in the middle and later dialogues. But here, this does seem to be Socrates. And this was probably composed about a decade after the actual event, suggesting that people would have been around, people who were still alive would have been around. And they could have characterized, you know, how accurate Plato was. Xenophon, despite being much shorter in an abbreviation, is writing at least ten years later, after Plato. And so he's not just writing against, excuse me, the portrayal of Socrates in the Apologia by Plato. He's writing against the portrayal of Socrates in a dozen dialogues by Plato, many of which he must have read. And so that's kind of an interesting note as well. However, I will say that I find Plato's portrayal much stronger. In terms of other, you know, readings, of course, the Crito is a great successor. It talks about, like, you know, continuing this, like, stay true to yourself, and also has some meditation on friendship. And the Faito is a very powerful one that explores Socrates' ideas around immortality and the afterlife in just a really strong dialogue. Something that is explicitly mentioned by Plato is the play The Clouds by Aristophanes in which Socrates and Chirophon, his friend, are portrayed running a school of absolute imbeciles. It's very funny. It is, you know, bittersweet to realize that some twenty years after the play was written, Socrates was condemned. And that Aristophanes was likely a friend of Socrates. He's a character in the symposium, you know, at the drinking party. So they seem to have known each other and probably been, like, friends, you know, who must, you know, joke around with each other. And so there's a bittersweet aspect to that. Someone had identified that the play Antigone, the Greek tragedy Antigone by Sophocles, shows that idea of, you know, Socrates will be true to himself no matter what in the same way that Antigone does in that dialogue. And, of course, I mentioned the Anabasis by Xenophon. Great, great story of a small group of Greeks who travel deep into Persia only to have their leader, you know, die in battle, their officers betrayed and murdered by the Persians and have to find their way all the way back home. So this was Two Portraits of Socrates. And I'm looking forward to next week. I've got an exciting comparison next week that I've been working on. So let me know if you've read these. Let me know what your thoughts are. And I hope you're doing well. Thank you.