The Ultra Sound Podcast | Episode 6 | Mindset for Ultra's

Hello everyone and welcome to The Ultrasound Podcast with me Tom Evans, professional trail runner and winner of Western States in 2023. I'm Brett Saunders, I'm chief crew officer and best man at his wedding. Hello everybody and welcome to episode 6 of The Ultrasound Podcast and today's episode is mindset within the ultra. I'm joined today again with the best co-host out there Brett Saunders and let's get this on. Perfect, I think this is a really good topic Tom and we've touched it briefly in previous episodes but how are you feeling going into UTMB mentally with everything going on? Yeah I think it's one of those that if you're not, yeah I guess if you're not nervous like you probably don't want it and I think this is something that I reckon I think about the race with pretty much every decision that I make because everything has a, every decision that you make has a an effect whether that's good, bad or indifferent. I get everything that you do from yeah missing one training session to pushing too hard in another training session to getting a training session just right. Like I think or yeah going out for food like whatever it is like everything has an effect on your overall performance. I think that's sometimes the more difficult thing as a professional athlete is a lot of the time like you need to get balance somewhere but I definitely try and get balance at some points during the year and I definitely try and take away balance at other points of the year and I guess this this phase of training leading up to UTMB the balance is to be completely honest is slightly out the window and there's very little going on in my life now except for training which I think it needs to be so I guess like just by the very nature of doing that that ends up putting quite a lot of pressure on what you're doing. Like I've missed friends weddings and there's things like that that you massively take for but when you're away and when you're training and that's kind of what what you've got to focus on so yeah I think I'm I'm really looking forward I'm really really looking forward to the race and genuinely excited to the race like not quite that much longer to go until race day yeah and I think that yeah just the the ability to really get to the start line and still be excited rather than this feeling like a massive chore is yeah is going to be completely fundamental to the success because I think if you go into a race like feeling a bit tired and mentally drained when things get really tough you're going to have absolutely nowhere to go so I think yeah mentally like a great space now like things are being things are being pretty stressful over the last yeah over the last couple of months with some things going on on back home and it's nice that I don't think those things can ever be sort of fully put to bed and fully forgotten about but yeah with time it makes things a little bit easier and yeah we're sort of at the end of the process now so yeah I think just excited about getting racing and yeah in a positive must be pretty tricky because obviously you mentioned obviously having a good mental or being in a good mental place to go into these races is going to help you when things get tough and obviously as you mentioned you've missing missed friends weddings there's things that you do miss out on because you're so focused on the race day getting there but obviously there's got to be a balance in your life to have kind of those off days where you're not just solely thinking about racing because that will then help with your mental well with your psychology for the race and your mental state going into it how do you how do you balance that yeah for sure and I think it's so so important to be able to do it and I think getting that balance is a real real skill and I think yeah it's not necessarily just because like balance doesn't mean that like you have one day of training and then some days of not training it's just like on like the micro scale it's just sort of during the day just being able to switch off completely whether that's reading a book or watching something on Netflix and like for me do you find turning off hard um I think if I sort of try and make it happen naturally yes and kind of just expect it to happen like I have to I like doing things yeah and I don't like not doing anything so even if it's like to the extent of like playing on my Xbox yeah it's I'm switching off and actually to be honest that's probably what I find like having never been someone who's been a gamer I definitely wouldn't describe myself as a gamer yeah but one of the things that comes out to training camp now with my Xbox as you said it does come with you yeah because for me it's a way that I can still be switched on to something yeah but at the same time completely away from sport like I find if like if an evening at home if you're sort of sat on your own you've got something on telly that isn't really captivating you yeah you go on your phone you're then scrolling through Instagram whatever it is before you know it an hour 90 minutes has gone by and you've done nothing and you've not concentrated or been present with anything you kind of just wasted something and yes playing on fortnight is definitely not I'm not achieving anything yeah but like I'm mentally I'm still focusing and achieving something at the same time like it's a really weird it's a really weird dynamic and actually you look at so many professional athletes like playing games is huge them you see everywhere massive yeah because you're away for such a long time actually bringing bringing something from home I think is yeah it's really nice and it's really important and I think it's a yeah I think it's a great thing to be able to do do I do I sit at home and play Xbox all day no but like an hour or however long that I want to in the evening like it's actually a really nice way to be able to switch off and just be able to switch off and relax like once you've done everything that you need to do and if you're just if you are just actually doing that or reading a book or doing whatever like actually doing something is I'd so much rather be doing something yeah yeah absolutely now obviously on that start line you've got quite a daunting a daunting challenge ahead of you you've got 110 miles or 107 miles whatever it is 10 000 meters climbing are those stats as daunting in your head I know obviously you've gone through a process to get there and obviously you know kind of what's ahead of you but are you still still on that line in your head thinking oh this is quite a lot like it very much depends on how I start this race or is it what is your mentality on that start line yeah I definitely think that if you looked at it as like the whole big picture like it is incredibly daunting it is really difficult but I mean like we mentioned in one of the previous episodes is I break the race down into at least four chunks to have these like bite-sized manageable bit and like they're still it's still 25 miles it's still like 45 50 kilometer chunks which is still a really long way yeah but it's just so much more manageable like that that I can I know that I can run yeah the next 40 kilometers is completely irrelevant if I don't do these 40 kilometers yeah and then the 40 kilometers after that are even more irrelevant because I'm not there yet yeah so I think the ability to be able to be in the moment and only focus on what is in front of is really important but I think it can get incredibly daunting and very scary like 100 miles is a seriously long way yeah and if you allow it to sort of grow into this beast and to think about allow yourself to think about winning and the finish line and finish line in champion is incredible yeah it is the best it is the best atmosphere for a race that I have ever done and winning ccc in 2018 and finishing third in 2022 at utmb are some of if not my best memories from running and it is just the most incredible feeling and whether you're yeah whether you're winning or you're finishing 1000 it's kind of irrelevant it's the same for everyone and that's definitely not why we're doing it and I think if you only want to get the you need to want it more than that yeah like just the external motivation isn't enough no that's not enough to get you through all of the hard moments you know are going to come yeah and I think for me definitely the longer that the race goes like the more that I'll try and break the race down so whether it's like I guess for me at utmb the way that I'm going to do it is between the crude aid stations yeah so the first three hours or just under three hours from chamonix to contamine will be my first yeah that's my first block and I think in that stage like it's still daylight it's getting night it's getting towards nighttime and by the time that I get into contamine it is nighttime yeah so I think that's the first phase it's like let's get there using as little energy as possible and then from contamine to call my oh is the biggest stint without seeing the crew and it's through the hardest part of the night like it's going to be another just under six hours yeah and that's a long way that's a long way to go but actually I would much rather focus on running for six hours than I would for running 20 hours yeah another broken down section yeah exactly it's another and by the time you've got there you've done your three-hour stint you've then done your six-hour stint you're halfway yeah like and I think when you get there it's like occasionally get out the door and get to the next one by the time you've got to champelac almost three quarters way through the race you've done three quarters yeah it's going to take you almost as much time to drive round as it will to run around yeah yeah so I think it will depends how your legs are hopefully I've been in been at times where yeah there will be quicker and been in a more time where it's been significantly slower death marching towards Chamonix but yeah breaking it down like that and having these like little way points these little benchmarks yeah is really important I think that's why also it's so important to do a course recce before because you know the points on the ground that you're going to get to and you can see it and be like okay I know where we are this aid station we've done a small descent we've got a big climb afterwards yeah I'm going to hit this at four in the morning yeah yeah it just simplifies things so when it does come to on the day again like there's no surprises and I think that's what racing it shouldn't be necessarily be boring but should so just it's just an extension of training it's just like your biggest training day with a bit more pressure and yes you want to bring you want to have your very best day but it's not like running a marathon that's going to be over in just over two hours or three hours whatever you want to run yeah this is a almost a whole day yeah like for the pro is at the front like it's 20 hours and two days for the people I think like it's so much more difficult for the people who are running it slower I'm gonna do two nights yeah like that's brutal both physically and mentally mentally like exhausting there's absolutely no way I'm mentally strong enough to do it not a chance I don't know about that but sorry that's I would significantly rather it take one I'm sure everyone would rather take one yeah yeah but like it's so it makes it so much more difficult in my view is if yes I like to think that I'm pretty mentally strong but the people who are going to finish no matter how hard that I'm finding it I'm going to finish in half the time of something like they've got the time is the only thing that you can't really control like that's going to happen regardless of whether you stop or whatever like the old saying like the sun's going to rise tomorrow morning like regardless yeah if I am having a great day brilliant there'll be people out there who are having a bad day when I start having a bad moment there are going to be people who are also having a bad moment yeah like if they can do it yeah I can huge thank you for for sponsoring I started testing with Morton in 2017 and was one of the first athletes in the UK to use it and I've been using it every season since I use the whole range of products including the drink mix 320 the gel 160 and more recently sodium bicarbonate the hydro gel allows me to hit high carbohydrate goals with no stomach issues to make me feel my best on race day go and give Morton a go and fuel yourself for your next race to benefit from your one-time code and get 20% of your next purchase on morton.com simply enter the code ultrasound 20 at the checkout valid until the 30th September 2024 the code is applicable on all products except the Morton bike up system and so in those bad moments obviously we want things to go swimmingly but obviously as we've mentioned a few times that doesn't always happen how are you actually staying positive in those moments so just recently you've raced in Italy uh Lovato um same same but different you know um but like kind of 80 90k you mentioned that you were you were in a in a bit of a hole um or in a hole struggling a little bit things were mentally a bit tough what are you saying to yourself what are you how are you getting through those moments yeah I think Lavarado was a really difficult one because one of the the main reason that I was there was to see where I was and to identify the areas in training that I needed to improve to be able to bring my best performance to UTMB yeah the race definitely wasn't easy sometimes it feels really natural other times it doesn't feel natural at all and this was one of the times where it doesn't feel natural from almost from the first step yeah the idea was to go and to to get that understanding of exactly where I was so I could figure out what I need to do in order to have my best performance at UTMB yeah by the time I'd got to 80k so still with 40k to go so still with a long time to go at that point I thought that I had identified everything that I needed to improve on in order to bring my best to UTMB so on one side of my on one shoulder I've sort of got the yeah the the bad cop saying well you already know what you need to improve on like why bother carrying on yeah like you've achieved what you need to achieve like just stop now like save yourself a bit of time and it's then so easy to go into these conversations with yourself oh well actually if I if I stopped if I'd pulled out now then actually my training will be a little bit better I could do this I could do that but then you've got the other on the other side it's like actually it's not over till it's over like and I think for me the benefits that I got from digging really deep at that point and getting myself into contention where it's possible to win the race and yeah I ended up not winning I finished second in the race but in my eyes I won yeah I won the battle I won the internal battle with myself and I achieved my goals for the race were not to win my goals for the race were to find out where I was good where I was okay and where I had serious room for improvement yeah and to be able to formulate a plan to put into place to then have my best performance at UTMB yeah if I'd stopped at 80k I would not have achieved that because I would have left this huge chasm of mental strength would have yeah probably created more doubt in your mind precisely because actually when you get used to pulling out of races it's really easy to keep pulling out yeah and you see it with people like people who have never dnf because it's it's tough like yes getting an injury whatever it is yeah is one thing but pulling out because it's just too hard is something else entirely and do you have a strategy if things are too hard in your head like is there something it's a go-to for you like a reminder yeah I think it's just really focusing on what the challenge is at hand like depending on what fate if it comes really early like if you're if there's nothing you can do about it being sick like that's a physical problem that's not really anything to do with mental health yeah you can keep trudging on and if that's what you want to do and that's what you want to achieve from it then that's absolutely great like I think as an elite athlete like I want to get one of my goals for UTMB this year will get will be to get to the finish line yeah like and that's not I'm not putting a time on that that might be 20 hours that might be 30 hours I want to prove to myself that I can do it yeah regardless and I would much rather for me it's way too easy unless I'm injured yeah it's way too easy to pull out yeah especially in the second half of the race where you see your crew so often like the stats of people pulling out or wanting to pull out at Courmayeur where you've just done six hours of not seeing your crew and you've got another five hours 35 minutes for the elite runners of not seeing their crew yeah like that's huge yeah and you leave Courmayeur it's still night time you feel not great you've just done a big descent you've got a big climb to go you're just halfway it's the darkest point of the night it's cold it doesn't feel great you just need to convince yourself to get out the door and I think at that point like the crew are super important because yes you're like and at that point I don't think like the internal motivation is enough you need both the internal and the external at that point so I think in my opinion Courmayeur is by far the most important point of the race it's also kind of where like the yeah the racing starts of the the prelude the warm-up is over and it's almost you earn the right to then start racing from Courmayeur so yeah I think like had I have pulled out at Laboreto 8k it would be so it would be so easy yeah but by keeping on going it makes me a way stronger athlete knowing that actually in the race that I didn't I wasn't bothered about finishing yeah I wanted I set these processes these process goals to not take to the front my nutrition yeah lean into the discomfort yeah that was one of my goals had I have not lent into discomfort then I would have failed in my process goal yeah but the process goal is so easy to keep going it's not an outcome it's not dependent on what someone else on the course is doing this is all me yeah those are the goals that I have set for me yeah I can achieve it regardless of whether I'm in first place or 50th place and I think by having those goals rather than setting a yeah if you wanted to be in first place at Courmayeur for example at halfway point someone had time chart off the front and was just incredible yeah and you were in second place but having the run of your life yeah there's nothing you can do about that like you just don't yeah you just don't know you can't control it so I think like I get way more comfortable being able to like setting the goals of things that I can actually control and I can achieve and actually by for me ticking off that like leaning into the failure not the failure leaning into the discomfort yeah and embracing the suffering I learned such a I learned such a huge lesson about myself that I was able to do it I was able to perform at my very best when I was feeling my very worst. 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For those who don't know my history I was in the military and I did eight years with the British army in the infantry and in my opinion the the greatest difference between a professional athlete and a professional soldier is a professional athlete is training to perform their best when they're feeling their best they've done their taper they've done all their training they're ready to go whereas a soldier is wanting to perform at their best when they're feeling at their worst yeah and I think ultra running you're gonna feel horrendous you still need to be able to perform at your very best and I think yeah for me that's a huge factor. What's a pretty relatable skill like that resilience from obviously like you're saying with the army would you say you had that before going to the army or did it get enhanced being in the army something that you just completely learnt in the army what was your mentality going into the army where were you before that? I don't know you tell me you know me as well as anyone does like what was my like I like to think at school I definitely wasn't the best at the best like physically talented person on the sports pitch or anywhere but I had a serious drive I mean one thing I remember massively was tried harder than everyone else yeah and you I remember massively with like weight training you were not naturally the biggest or the strongest but you made yourself the strongest because you put so much time and effort into making yourself that and I think and I think that's yeah I will outwork anyone yeah and I think that's my I'm not the most physically talented ultra runner or trail runner and I know that yeah but I will work harder and I will yeah leave no stone unturned yeah to be the very best that I possibly can be because yeah they're saying hard work beat talent when talent doesn't work hard like I think I've got some talent but I also work harder than I believe that I don't whether I work harder than anyone else is irrelevant I can't control that I work as hard as I possibly can yeah and I think I've had I've had that from when we were at school oh for sure yeah it's definitely always been there and I think it's been I think it's been finely tuned a bit more and that's what I think yeah we've gone away from like the hammer mallet approach and got the chisel out and have yeah to got way more defined with it and I definitely think the military has the military has definitely helped shape it I definitely think it was there yeah it's like it's like a matured hard worker in the sense of like in the army and at school it was always like you know I'm gonna be I'm gonna work the hardest to do that like now in the ultra running yes you need to work very hard but also work smart with your resilience because if someone comes past you at 80 miles still in a 100 mile race you still got 20 miles to go that's still a long way yeah and if you're resilient enough to be like yeah that's fine I believe in the process that I will then eventually catch them that is I mean I think that is resilient like the resilience there is huge because you're trusting in the process you're trusting in what and that is where I think you have developed as as a person I think before maybe there might have been a time where you'd have seen someone go past you and then you would just push yourself to burn out because that is what you knew yeah I think it's yeah definitely a case of something's gone wrong let's not get a bigger hammer but actually let's approach things in a slightly different way and I think yeah by doing that yeah you're not necessarily just training more isn't more yeah like let's train let's train as well as I possibly can yeah let's outwork let's outwork my former self let's train as much as I possibly can yeah but in a manner where you know what your best performance looks like let's not overdo it and let's not get carried away so I think like discipline then definitely definitely definitely comes into it I think that's something that I've massively learned in the army like I've never had I've never had an issue with like self-motivation and doing the right thing like that I feel like that's always come pretty naturally to me but the yeah discipline the holding off to not push so hard yeah and I think the not taking not necessarily taking the easy route but like having that integrity of being able to look at myself every evening and be like actually today today I was I wasted today and then and I think it can sometimes it can be really difficult like do you have an often check in with yourself like mentally like that like being honest with yourself saying yes I've done well today or actually you could have done this a bit better yeah I think it I probably don't do it enough with myself or I do do it enough with myself but that's one of my yeah one of my psychologist key roles is to like identify the areas where I've been good in the areas where maybe I haven't been quite so good because everything at the end of the day comes from your mind yeah if you want to go you decide whether you want to go for a run you don't just sort of suddenly open your eyes and you're running like yeah you have to make that decision yeah you make the decision to follow a good nutrition plan and then you then have the discipline to stick with it yeah sometimes you do need to take your foot off the gas and I think it's why it's really nice for me like taking a bit of a step back to be able to have areas and times during training where I'm super focused yeah and then times during training where actually I sort of loosen my belt a little bit and I allow other things to creep in like I love I love watching live sport and being able to go to Wimbledon and being able to go and watch the Formula One with Red Bull things like that I wouldn't do if I was in a massive training block because I need I want to be able to be super disciplined but actually at times you can't be disciplined but how great if your mental health to be able to do that and then like go go back to the trails and be like look I did that and now it's time to kick on you can enjoy it so much more yeah so yeah I think it's yeah I think definitely think that that's been a the skill was already there but I have definitely developed in the way that in the way that I'd like and would you say there is a specific race a specific moment that has made you develop that skill in your head like with your mental strength or is it something that's just you've just visibly like you've just noted that this I need to work on this yeah and you've got better at it like where where's that come from I think there's definitely a for me like with running like the finish line is where the finish line is it only matters who's if you if your goal is to win the race it only matters who crosses the finish it only matters who's in the lead yeah when they cross the finish line that's it yeah um so I think if I look back at the 2022 UTMB um I overtook Jim going up that hill going up the final climb with only an hour an hour and 10 minutes left of the race to go and he'd been in front for 18 hours 18 and a half hours beforehand and yeah it's not over it's not over till it's over and I guess growing up in the 90s uh watching American Pie that one of the key lines and people who are my age listening to this now will yeah may or may or may not remember but the one of the I think it was the American football coach or the lacrosse coach said we don't quit at half time you don't score until you score yeah and it's the same with ultra running like you don't quit when you get halfway you don't quit when you're 95 of the way there you don't quit until you finish like you don't score until you score until you're over that finish line you give absolutely everything you've got till the job's done until you finish the job the job isn't done with a kilometer to go and I love that mentality of some athletes someone like Zach Miller who's just able to yeah squeeze every ounce of energy and performance out of himself to get to the finish line as quickly as he possibly can and I think like for me that it's so inspiring and so motivating to see that being done at the elite field but then also seeing it in the golden hour at Western States yeah seeing the people running hobbling around the track that plays the high school to finish because it means that much to them yeah like they've not done their job until they finish that's what they've done all their training to do exactly and like you don't quit no like yeah you just however long it takes you just get get keep going keep trudging yeah until you get to the fit like that's the one thing that's not going to move in the race the aid stations and the finish line finish line yeah yeah doesn't matter whether you're in 10th place with a mile to go yeah like you see it in yeah more so in like smaller tactical track races yeah like it might be a really tactical race and actually the winner only takes to the front with two meters to go yeah those are the only two meters you need to be in the league literally and if you're going in wanting to win races the only time you need to be at the front is when you cross the finish line do you think when you are on the start line of any race obviously I know there are so many other um like other factors that come into it kind of like UTMB Western States when you're going when you're stood on the start line is your mentality exactly the same going into it this is my race this is not as in this is my race to win this is the race that I'm going to run my run um so I think is that how you're approaching every race going forward is that is like talk to us about your like being on the on the start line sort of thing I think in an ideal world yes it's all exactly the same but I'm not a robot yeah I'm a human being yeah I am a normal guy who tries really hard to be the very best that he can yeah there are insecurities yeah I do have imposter syndrome when I'm on the start line next to Jim and Killian or Francois or Zach Miller yeah I do worry I always think how on earth am I ever going to be able to do this like these guys are so much better than I am and then I think actually like yeah what stage are you except for except for Killian I've beaten them all beaten all the best athletes yeah all the best trail running athletes in the world yeah yeah I still see it as I don't belong and I think that's so natural it's so natural to have these doubts that you you have to try and overcome take all the confidence from that though but also kind of like put it in a I don't know put it in a pressure cooker and like allow it to you know just use it as your advantage yeah you need you need to and in an ideal world that's exactly what you do yeah but being humans like self-preservation and we are it is survival of the fittest yeah and you are yeah as as humans like we are timid we are our nature is to worry about things yeah and trying to because you've got these things like blocking them out completely it doesn't work like you can't when does that change though because obviously you're yes you're on that start line with them and you're having the doubts or whatever not doubts but like it going through your head like oh god how am I well how am I going to keep up with these guys sort of thing but then surely there's got to be a moment is it as soon as that gun goes that you're like no come on this is me this is my run that you forget about them but obviously I know you're still thinking about them because you're in a race with them but are you then as soon as that gun goes are you straight into it yeah I think that's where it's super important to have these like mini goals inside the race and something to be able to keep really focused and to keep really centered because if you give yourself that mental space and that mental breathing room your mind's going to fill it with thoughts it's like you go on holiday no matter what bag you pack you're going to fill your bag you give yourself an inch you're going to use a whole inch give yourself a mile you're going to use a whole mile so like just being real and like it's okay for your mind to wander so I guess yeah definitely are certain strategies within the race that I use to yeah I guess to try and focus a bit more whether that's whether that's listening to music um yeah and yeah just being able to focus on certain songs that I'll listen to that I guess will draw me back into training and actually yeah this is me I'm doing my own thing so I just want to jump in and say a massive thank you for Garmin for sponsoring I've been using Garmin now for over six years and it was actually my first watch that I bought when I was in the army now as a professional athlete I use Garmin 24-7 to measure not just my training but my HRV and also tracking my sleep for me I find the most valuable things about my Garmin is using the features such as Pace Pro and Climb Pro for when I'm racing this really helps me to gauge the effort especially going uphill to make sure that I don't go too hard too soon and I'm able to finish the race off in style finally and I think the most important thing is the battery life having a watch that can last longer than you can out on the trails is an absolute game changer and looking forward to using Garmin for the rest of the season and give the listeners insight what are you listening to oh a whole mixture I had to actually rate my last three played songs on Spotify the other day and I could have played it really cool and I could have said like oh yeah like I don't know what's cool Eminem Ed Sheeran and Stormzy but actually my last three played songs were an artist called Bishop Briggs called Champion yeah which is great and actually for me that's a really good song to like get in my own personal space yeah Alienated by Zayn, Zayn Malik from One Direction really good new album brilliant nice and then if you're listening then yeah Zayn I know he's one of our key he's one of us he's one of our 18 subscribers and then the third one is well anything on the Taylor Swift our new album yeah big Taytay fan big Swifty but yeah the last played song was Who's Afraid of Little Old Me another question I have is obviously we've touched very much on the mentality stood on the start line being through the start line but obviously there's a lot that goes into it before what's your mindset kind of 20 in the build up to the race like 24 hours before what's going through your mind what you're thinking yeah what's I guess like for me it's probably picking three key workouts that I've done yeah or three things that I have done in the recent training to give me the confidence that I'm in the right shape it doesn't have to be a whole workout not every workout is going to be perfect but it might be like a hill session that felt really good or this long run that gives you confidence yeah or yeah a race maybe where yeah lavarado showing my mental strength will give me a lot of confidence from the start so I think for me it's just going back through through areas and finding bits of confidence that I can pick out and just trying to stay really positive because there's absolutely nothing that you can do 24 hours before the start line that's going to optimize you or make you physically more ready for the race like you take stock of what you've done yeah because that's what you've got to use you can't make anything new at that point you've not got another month you've not got another two months you've got what you've done and you need to be happy with it and if that's if that's enough for you to put out your best performance great but if it's not okay well let's change your benchmarks but let's follow those small chunk broken down race goals that you can follow along and follow those processes knowing that like those processes aren't just pulled out of thin air and actually you can't have a process of actually for this I'm going to run I'm going to run 10 minutes quicker than course record pace because it's unrealistic yeah like and actually having those processes of things that you can really control you can really do yeah and they are really achievable because you want to achieve those things because when you achieve it you get that instant self-gratification yeah that is then going to build more positivity so I think yeah before a race it's trying to be really positive I'm thinking about the sessions that I have done really well yeah rather than the sessions that I haven't done really well um and I guess like another thing like that I have definitely learned is there's no such thing as perfection in ultra endurance sports like what is perfect you can run a really good race but you could have made you could have made up a second in the race I mean 2022 pre-race after knee surgery in the build-up your mindset going into that race was there loads of loads of question marks in your head is my knee gonna hold out it's my like am I gonna am I fit enough no because I've gone through that exact process of think of all the hard work that I have done in order to get me to where you're here now I hadn't barely thought of the race yeah I put in a couple of process goals that I wanted to do but not many and definitely less than I was yeah definitely less than I would do now because I think I've learned and developed a lot of anatomy yeah in the even in the last year since my failure at UTMB last year yeah well not a failure failure is learning yeah yeah and yeah I think for me yeah on the start line there it was uh you've got to the start line this was your goal get to the start line now go out and enjoy it yeah and you've done you've gone above and beyond where anyone thought that you were gonna be yeah on anywhere that you thought that you were gonna be yourself yeah go and enjoy it go run with the best in the world and see what you can do throw it down go and have fun because you've been in some really really bad situations in your life and look at you now yeah and now you're here you're on the start line yeah what in the biggest one of the biggest trail races in the world in the biggest trail race in Europe go and enjoy it go and have fun you've got nothing to prove no one thought you were going to get this far yeah and when someone says oh yeah maybe you don't maybe don't do UTMB you won't we don't think you'll be ready to me that's like more fuel in the fire exactly and when you get people who are close to you telling you that maybe you shouldn't be doing it and who don't believe in you and don't believe in your journey then yeah that's where you want to stick your middle finger up and say actually i'm going to do this by felicia um so other end of the spectrum you've just finished western states you're then resetting to go and get ready for UTMB 2023 what's the mindset then you think i know we did touch it in a in another episode um what's your mindset then are you thinking i've just won this top of the world i literally can just give it a week go straight back into it and go again like where is your head in that sense like because it must be so hard to have won this amazing race and then go to another race being like i've already not i've already proved myself but like there's got to be there's confidence there there's like you know like where where's your mental head with that reset and like gotta go again yes there's a saying of don't let the wins go to your head or the losses go to your heart and i think that's so true but i do think yeah don't let just because you've won a race doesn't mean you're the bees knees and you're the best in the world but you've put so much effort into something that you've then achieved yeah you need to celebrate it and that doesn't mean that you need to be a dick about it yeah it doesn't need you yeah it doesn't mean you need to be a bad person about it but at the same time you've put so much work and effort in and people around you put so much work and effort to get you to where you are today yeah you need to enjoy it because you don't know if it's ever going to happen again because how long are you in the western states last year i spent four months in the u.s last year in the first so i mean physically as well as mentally like four months being away from home being away from safe and the dogs huge then winning that race and chicken and the chicken sorry yeah we're winning that race a week later you come back and you start again for mentally you're burnt out no like you need time to like going from one to the other like you need time whatever anyone says however good enough that you are 100 you need time for you you need time for you and sophie and the dogs 100 and that is definitely something that i didn't give myself i just thought right come on you've got to be pushing another way it's only eight weeks and once that's finished you can then you can then relax but the thing that i have learned is bench if you allow yourself benchmarks will keep changing and you achieve something and immediately you want to achieve something bigger and you achieve that and you want to achieve something bigger and then bigger it goes on and on and on and on and you're never happy with what you've actually got rather than in the moment being like okay cool yeah this is amazing let's really enjoy what i've got at the moment people always want to whether it's upgrading their cars or i want a house i want more of this i want more of that i want more success like what you've got now is probably amazing and actually if you look back at what your goals were a year ago two years three years ago yeah like when i started in this sport i couldn't even imagine winning western yeah and as soon as soon as i when i hate i don't hate myself for it but i yeah in hindsight it's great i would love to go back to western to after winning western states now and say to myself look this might this might be your last ever race win this might be your only time you ever in western state enjoy it yeah don't rush back into something like you've achieved everything you've set out to this year yeah you've done what you yeah you've done what you wanted to do go and enjoy it don't like but immediately within an hour of finishing the race yeah i was already thinking do i think it's possible to do i remember saying that and i and it's it's it's great because it shows motivation but then at the same time you just think you've put i put so much effort into this but it's great that you're able to recognize that um yeah and you've seen it but you but you wouldn't have seen it or been able to do that if you didn't if it didn't happen for sure so i think it's definitely it's definitely lesson learned and i think that's where it's really important to have the right the right team and the right people around you not just yes men yes people around the whole time but someone to say look actually enjoy your moment yeah really enjoy make the most out of it i'm not the sort of person who's ever going to go off the rails completely but like why don't you go do something go away go have fun like yeah you put so much stress and pressure and effort into this into this year yeah pretty much since you qualified for western states the year before that was the goal so and that was at btnb in 2022 so for 10 months that's been your sole focus you've done absolutely everything you can to do that and within an hour you've forgotten your whole all of your work ethic yeah and you've just changed and the goalposts have shifted immediately and i think like if there's one lesson that i would love to impart on people from this is like if you achieve your goal if you whether your goal is winning a race finishing a race getting that promotion at work having a starting a family whatever it is like remember what your goal was when you set out yeah and when you achieve it remember that you've achieved it like yes be motivated and then go on and set further goals but what would the if you told the previous version of yourself what you just achieved there'd be a really happy yeah don't be on the constant search for perfection in the next big thing because actually what you've got at the moment is probably really good important message so that is it for another week uh thank you so much for listening uh please make sure to subscribe and to share this podcast so we can get it into the ears of as many people as we possibly can another huge shout out to our sponsors because without them this podcast would not be possible we've got one more episode before utmb so make sure you tune into that next week but until then have a great time on the trails and look forward to seeing you out there see you then