Is Ozempic A Threat To The Fitness Industry? | Jason Phillips & Mind Pump 2352

this is mind pump today's episode we have master trainer trainer of trainers Jason Phillips we talk specifically about gp1s like OIC you've probably heard a lot about the drug OIC lately OIC OIC OIC OIC OIC it is literally the hottest drug in the country right now is this going to crush the fitness industry now you can take something just lose weight what are trainers and coaches supposed to do when they're competing against something it essentially guarantees weight loss do they work with it or is this the enemy you're going to love this episode this episode's brought to you by one of our sponsors NCI now they're going to hook you up in fact this month they're going to give you one of their four master classes for free so literally you'll get it for free all you got to do is this text the word masterclass to 615 813 6320 now this episode's also brought to you by Legion Legion makes athletic performance in enhancing supplements for muscle building fat loss and Recovery one of the best supplement companies there is around there and if you go through our link you'll get yourself a discount go to buy lean. pump use the code mine pump get 20% off your first order or double rewards points if you're returning customer also this month's sale Maps 15 half off the bikini bundle of programs half off or the shredded summer bundle of programs also half off huge discount one of the biggest sales of the year if you're interested go to Maps Fitness products.com and then use the code June 50 for the discount all right here comes the show Jason welcome back again to the show thanks for always one of our most popular guests I appreciate that so uh Adam and I had this discussion on one of our episodes I'd love to include you in this because I'd love to hear your opinion this is what s does when he's wrong he goes to he keeps going to people sooner or later somebody's going to agree with me on this we won't know if I'm if I'm right or wrong because we're going we're watching this devel validation for the first time in that I can remember the medical industry has created something that literally could shake everything up I'm talking about glp1 agonists like semaglutide or brand names you know um wovi OIC yep I mean the data is showing you know you're going to lose 15% of your body weight it's not a stimulant like the old ffan or whatever um it's it works pretty much for every yep pretty remarkable is and the debate we had the discussion we had was what how it's going impact like the diet industry because are people going to want to work with coaches and stuff when they could just use a glp1 and they just they don't want to eat as much how are you seeing this impact the space now or what do you think it's going to do for Coach should they pivot should they work with them what do you think do I think they should pivot and work with them like meaning like should should they learn how to work with these peptides yes yeah yes like I we're all like we're all extremely naive if we think that this isn't going to continue I mean we understand big Pharma is out to make money and I don't care how many like dietary interventions have come into play in the last 15 20 years you know 100 years whatever people are still people and they want a quick fix MH like I always say we're at this like weird place in the industry right now where I think we understand more about the human body than we ever have I think that's pretty undeniable actually for sure like physiology hasn't changed like you know biology hasn't changed so it's not like the body has changed but our understanding of it has clearly changed and we're we're way more advanced yet obesity is still at an all-time high so it's like are people going to seek this out [ __ ] yeah they are like fat people are fat because they don't like health and fitness MH right like I I tell nutrition coaches all the time I'm like stop selling a diet like it's like going to an overweight person being like you know what like I know you hate dieting so give me money for like the one thing that you hate like instead they're going to invest money in something they don't hate which is they can still go out they can still eat some of the things they want and they can lose weight with these drugs so yeah I mean do I do we like it no like do we well let me rephrase do we like it I don't know and that sounds weird as like the owner of a nutrition company but we don't know enough about it to hate it as much as we want to hate it I think as an industry we're so conditioned to want to hate anything that is not rational advice but like what do we not know about like glp like there's there's a lot of things in fact like U do you know mas and Kip um so big mindset guy okay right like really like deep into like psychology like brain function right and and I don't know this but he was he told me there was peer- review data out there that shows that like glp he specifically said semaglutide um that it actually enhances or or supports brain function yeah um and that there was like a lot of positive benefits for brain health coming from this I I've never been so um Blown Away by potential of a of of a medical intervention and this is just all preliminary right so things could change but what you said is uh is true so it doesn't reduce appetite by boosting catacol Mees like epinephrine and doesn't stimul it's not a stimulant it seems to change behaviors based off of how you tend to want to comfort yourself so they're even finding people are not drinking alcohol as much not smoking cigarettes um not biting their nails repulsive behaviors so how can we how can we not say that's positive yeah well and so so so there's two there's two schools of thought here one of them is uh oh we're screwed because people are just going to take this and then everything solved for them I don't think it's going to solve everything no I think this potentially could be used as a remarkable tool that a coach can use to dramatically improve success CU you're still going to have to develop better behaviors you can't just eat less to learn better behaviors yes and keep them because the gp1s cause muscle loss as well they don't cause muscle loss the reduction in calories causes muscle loss and fat loss just like if somebody went on a diet and didn't increase their protein and didn't lift weights so they're still going to need some coaching and if they want to go off they're definitely going to need some coaching if I'm a coach you know regardless of what's happening I'm probably plugging myself into all of these clinics right now mhm just knowing unequivocally your your ideal clients or going there first and it's not cheap like I I don't know out of pocket what it is but I know it's not cheap yeah and and so the people that quote unquote don't have money for coaching have plenty of money for GP and so it's like all right well go plug yourself in because while they're doing it you know and I I think a lot of even when like the HCG protocols were popular um you know a lot of practitioners I think are very conflicted cuz I have to assume the margins are astronomical U as with most things Pharma uh and so if the margins are astronomical I think that the you know the provider is like well I need to make the money but then they're like well is this really the right advice and so I think they actually feel better plugging a coach in with it because I think that coaching is far more readily accepted as the quote unquote right vehicle to w lost success and and maybe like you know we're living in this crazy time what if like 50 years from now they're like a those [ __ ] [ __ ] back in the early you know 2020s all they thought about was coaching and they could have just been taking these supplements you know what I mean like we don't even know what's coming and so I there's a bit of like zealotry on our own end to be like we are the Beall end all solution I think that currently relative to the data that we have available and the way that lives have been changed like I think we all agree coaching is the right vehicle yeah right like I I definitely think so but like we don't know here's what I okay here this why I love what you're saying because there's always been in the in the training space there's always been this strain of zealotry where it's like I remember in the in the late 90s when I was a trainer there were trainers like supplements no supplements I'm anti-s supplement uh you know everything has to be completely natural type of deal and they would call it natural if a gp1 was a herb you wouldn't be hearing the same push back I think from coaches because they feel like oh that's natural whatever I think a an effective coach uses all the tools at their disposal uh so long as they're used appropriately for the right people I agree that's What Makes You effective not that they're all good for everybody I'm not going to give everybody everything but I'm going to look at the individual and as a coach I'm going to say okay here's all these tools that we have available which ones are going to be the ones that are going to help this person the most and which ones are going to help me help this person develop this long-term relationship with excise let me ask you this how many coaches do you think are just right now turning a blind eye to it and labeling it as bad purely T yeah a lot and and I think that stupid like based on you know just relative to what you were just saying I think that a lot of coaches need to stop that zealotry and saying oh it's Pharma it has to be terrible they think they should be in a position where they're like all right I need to understand more and you know candidly before we started this you were like do you want to talk about glp and I was like admittedly I don't know about it like I can talk about its role in the industry and things like that but I have not gone into it but that's cuz I don't practice a lot in the nutrition coaching space anymore if I was still very active it's something I would be researching I would want to know why it's working you know the effects but more importantly like does this have any role in what I'm doing with my clients is there a way that this can Aid my business the people that are getting into it because whether we like it or not it's not going anywhere for quite some time today's YouTube giveaway is Maps peed if you want to win do this leave a comment below this video the first 24 hours we drop it subscribe to this Channel and turn on notifications if you win we'll let you know in the comment section also this month's sale Maps 15 half off the bikini bundle of programs half off and the shredded sumber bundle of programs also half off if you're interested click on the link at the top of the description below all right back to the show I think for somebody who claims they don't know a lot about it I think you you've communicated probably how it's going to play out the best and the argument that I had with sa was that I don't this isn't going to change anything in my opinion like it's going to be another tool in the in the toolbox the game is going to be the same though I and and yes it is the uh it is the most groundbreaking thing that we've seen to date as far as some sort of a supplement intervention that somebody could take so yes I think there's going to be massive adoption I think the trainers that don't get on board and find out how to integrate and use it are going to get left behind I think it's going to be super valuable to all people I definitely think there's going to be people that say oh my God change my life change my behaviors was amazing but when you look when you pull back and you look at the entire space I don't think it's going to disrupt so much that it's going to put nutrition businesses out of business or it's going to become the way that answers fa it's you're still going to have to put the work in you're still going to have to change behaviors you're still going to have to figure out the root cause what put the 100 lbs on you there's too many things that you still will have to do in order to be a healthy person I I mean and maybe this is just me being a pessimist I think if you look at the industry or you look at our world as a whole if anything becomes that powerful I think that our world is going to make it so exclusive and so difficult to obtain it has no ability to disrupt the industry sure I mean like if if this really becomes like the Holy Grail of like holy [ __ ] every single person that touches it can lose the weight they desire to lose the way it can retrain their habits and like you know it becomes this miracle drug that like you know the fitness industry has said doesn't exist yeah bro our [ __ ] government's going to step in right away you know I think is more powerful is is stem cells and they've done that the government has banned it from the US have to go and so and so I I just think that like hey I think anything that has that level of power yeah is not going to hit the mass Market here I don't we're not that's not going to happen here's here's the here's what's going to happen I I strongly believe if you believe all of the value of diet and exercise is weight B then yeah maybe this will do that but is that all of value right it's not even close to all of the value uh we've had this discussion before on the podcast where people would ask us way before glp1 became a thing they'd say what you know what if they invented the the the appe pill that made everybody F fit and healthy it still wouldn't give them all the value that you get from going along the journey and the things that you learn and the relationship you have with exercise and pain in your body and the self-acceptance and the you know you're still not going to learn all the things you would learned so I'm I'm interested so then does that help our industry or does it help other Industries because I look at what you're saying and immediately as you're saying this I'm in I'm in agreement right and I'm putting myself in the role of speaking with a potential nutrition client and they always you know whenever you say like what do you want to achieve I want to lose 20 pounds I want to look better right and I'm I'm always of the opinion all right Snap My Fingers you you go get on the scale it's down 20 pounds you look in the mirror you see what you want to see are you happier initially there gut reactions yes 100% unequivocally yes it's like all right well your husband doesn't look at you any differently your kids don't treat you any differently your friends don't compliment you every single time they see you and you know after a week nothing changes you just look a new way and the scale is the same like are are you still more fulfilled and they're like I don't know yeah and so is that is that a nutrition coach is that a psychologist is that a therapist is like so now now are we looking at like is the role of quote unquote coach is it becoming more all-encompassing and I've always been of the belief that the answer is yes I've always and I think all of us in this room think the role of a coach is far more than rep counter number provider macro provider I think the reason we're all such good friends is like we all know the real Catalyst to change is all of the things that precede the dietary interventions 100% I just made a point on the podcast that when you when you move to being an exceptional coach it's when you learn how to detach your clients from the mirror and the scale when you learn to teach them to attach all the work that they're putting in the the sacrifice with the food choices with the going to the gym two or three times a week once you learn to attach those things to all the other things in their life they're a better husband or wife they're a better father or mother they better prod their better productivity at work their energy levels are sustained through the day their skin is better their mood is better when you learn to attach all of those things to the work they put into the gym and the nutrition is when you get to that level and that has nothing to do with the mirror of the scale that's the ultimate place anyways it is and uh and that's I think where people are going to I think that's what people are going to start to to realize like like right now if if a Coach is listening if they're a new coach and they think wow I could be the most successful effective coach if I could just make my clients less hungry you're terribly wrong yeah that's not the solution that'll help that'll help a little bit it's like taking the edge off a little bit what I think these gp1s will do they'll take the edge off a little bit which is going to it's like anti-depressants for depression does it solve the problem no but it helps a little bit like if you're so dark that you can't even get off the couch well maybe a medication that gives you just enough to get off the couch to do the things that really make those massive differences like get on with your life and exercise and go outside and and develop relationships well now it's a tool that's been used in the right way I think a g1's like that if you're a smart coach and you see this and you get okay this is going to help Propel this person for a little bit to help me do my job better and it's now this incredible tool that's just been invented that I can use to help me be more effective I think that's the smart approach it's not going to crush you know what we do but get let me ask an ignorant question this is literally shows you how limited my research is on this so glp is only working with some dietary intervention correct it it work it works because it makes you eat less so the dietary intervention happens so so is this the first ever appetite suppressor that's been introduced no okay so so like as we actually start to play this out like we've we've seen this movie right and and so like we've seen things take hold and you know do I think it's probably better than those things sure do I think it's more advanced yeah I mean I love you know like what maston's saying and like I love the notion that it's improving brain health I think there's probably a lot of upside here do I think that we're at the next level where there's going to be massive industry disruption yet I don't like my gut says no right now again very very limited research so I don't want to speak from a place of ignorance but you know I I think that I think we're trending man I think we're trending towards a place where Pharma or the in the industry they're finding something man and and there's uh I there's something coming down the pipe I think if you're a good coach what you want to do is you want to look at atic medicine you want to look at Chinese medicine Western medicine you want to use things like strength training cardiovascular training you want to work you want to look at Mobility you want to look at meditation acupuncture Chiropractic work body work you want to work with conventional doctors and functional doctors and now that's not for everybody but you want to have those at your disposal and you want to be the maven the coach that's the maven that's the co that's the guide the guide that goes hey I'm coming to you and here's my challenges here's my issues what can I do and you go oh I've got this guy over here that works really well with this let's have you work with that a little bit and so with the gp1s I think what it's going to do is it's going to potentially make the the coach more effective I don't think it's going to take away in fact I'm excited about this because if you're if coaches are open to that yes that's the that's problem I don't even know if I agree with that though because one of the biggest the knocks on gp1s is the muscle loss one of the hardest things to to to teach a client is the art of fat loss while retaining muscle go so go even deeper right one of the hardest things to teach a client is that yeah when you use the word client right now you're using it in the context of somebody that up until very recently hasn't even had access to GP right so now we're talking about a different Avatar because the Avatar of somebody that comes in to use glp is already somebody that is going to fight you yeah on doing the things to preserve musle say so now we're talking about somebody that doesn't give a [ __ ] about that and and we're trying to teach them that in conjunction with them taking the Quick Fix of you know a pill or an injection that's right I think still under muscled at the end of the day for every for every client that it's going to be revolutionary or gamechanging from it's going to present a challenging client that's going to make your job harder you're still going to want you're still going to need a guide because uh obesity seems to be the smoke the fire seems to be the fact that people are underused that's what the data is now starting to show you're better off being fat and strong y than being skinny and weak um and so when you just eat less as we all know data by the way gp1s don't make you lose muscle they make you eat less if you just ate less and you didn't strength train and you didn't up bump your protein intake your body will adapt to that reduced energy intake by slowing its metabolism down one of the primary ways it does is it is it pairs muscle down so what people are going to realize is that they're smaller but they've lost muscle maybe some strength maybe some performance they don't it's not this Panacea so they're going to want some answers they're going to need some coaching and if it does change the brain in the sense that it makes people less likely to be impulsive you can work with that as a coach I'm not sure I agree yeah I I don't I don't think I don't think people are as aware as you're giving them credit for yeah I think that if oh I think I don't because when when you I misspoke I think we need to make them aware as what yes now this conversation you I don't Justin are you are you here are you it not sound like he's like totally making the case that I was making you're making the case that I made against you well no that we were talk specifically about Weight Watchers by the way I changed my mind when I saw when I saw the stry I did change my mind when I saw the strategy yeah yeah I just I think that one of the things that we all are kind of saying and agree on is that just like I I mean it's it's it's you're still going to have challenges with these clients and even though it's it can it potentially could really help like let's say somebody has this crazy impulsive behavior around binge eating right the client who who is not undere eating calories they are eating 5,000 calories and 3,000 of it comes from ice cream at midnight and this glp1 breaks that it's like unlocks this potential to let go of that it still presents the challenge of I got to get that person to go to the gym and lift weights they got to still hit enough protein to hang on to their muscle and so even though it's groundbreaking for them to break that habit and maybe initially they see a scale go down by 15 20 pounds it's still going to need the nutrition education the coaching the mentoring all that let me ask this too I mean and again this is coming from a place of ignorance I don't think at least to my knowledge that glp is being promoted as something you're going to take forever the data seems to show that you're right that you go off and you probably gain the weight back although anecdotally even if you don't gain the weight back like let's just let's play it out that you go on and you don't gain it back yeah your habits haven't changed like I and and this is what I really don't L you before I don't think that the cognitive benefits are permanent the same way the weight loss in essence won't be permanent yeah like you know so this is coming from a former anorexic I you know we talked about on a previous podcast I don't at 39 years old I still somewhat at times categorize myself as an inex and I always say it's because it's anorexia nervosa right it's nervous system disorder at the core and so I believe that my brain is wired as such to always have minor anorex anorexic Tendencies have I done a lot of like self-work and like things like that to improve that absolutely do I think my brain is in a healthier place I absolutely do but it doesn't mean I don't still have the Tendencies and so you're going to take these people you're going to remove the stimulus of the drug you're going to remove the appetite suppression and we're going to expect that magically we've cured everything and and I don't think that it's going to happen it just provides a window an opportunity different decis doesn't it just seem like it's a less invasive stomach staple as we talking as we keep talking I think it's I'm hearing that it's just an amplifier of the current state of the indust so what I so what here's what so I'll I'll I'll I'll bring up two things one is and this was at from talking with Dr seeds who's a one of the leaders in research in these these type of peptides and when you develop new behaviors so the way it's been explained to me is like if you look at like fresh snow and you see how people have been skiing down one particular path that pathway starts to get deeper and deeper those are the pathways in the brain and the real deep ones are the ones that people naturally fall into in order to create new Pathways you got to go through that fresh snow and at first it's kind of hard but then little by little you start to you start to dig a a new pathway and then the old pathway starts to get filled in with snow so you're going to have to learn how to develop these behaviors while under the assistance yeah of gp1s in order for it to stick otherwise if it's purely reliant on the appetite suppression then you're going to go right back to where you were before your old behaviors remain that's why yeah it's just like a and I think that's how coaches need to look at that as an opportunity as a window for then getting somebody in the right state to have the right attention going into the training with this being said where are we teaching them about the new behaviors because all I'm hearing is that we're modifying behaviors in if I zoom way out and I think about behavioral change it's the for lack of a better word abandonment or departure of previous behaviors but it's the undertaking of the new behaviors so does GP magically [ __ ] go to your brain and it's like here's the right [ __ ] new Behavior like that [ __ ] doesn't exist so it's like where's the professional that's coming in saying here's the right behaviors aside from eat less all it exactly all it does is take a little pressure off right that and you know like any um pattern when you put pressure on a pattern you tend to go into your the pattern that you have devel hardwired so it takes a little bit of pressure off so it's no different than a bad movement pattern that someone develops through exercise as a trainer I know if I put them under load they're going to go right to that bad pattern for me train a new pattern I take the load off we train a new pattern and make that one strong and then I can add load and now they have a new pattern we distract it with vibration or you know other techniques like that so so coaches the coaches that right now are looking at this and Going H it's terrible it's Pharma you're number one what's going to happen is the consumer is going to look at you and say you're wrong I lost lots of weight and and and I I I solved this problem not really solving the problem solving part of it so that's number one number two you're shooting yourself in the foot I think as a coach you you got to look at this and go how can I use this to benefit my the my clients appropriately or the clients that it's appropriate for y if you can do that uh I think you're going to be ahead of the curve otherwise you're going to come across as the naysayer who was wrong because the consumer doesn't really understand all the consumer knows is well I dropped 20 pounds so obviously you're an idiot yeah they see weight moving yeah that's about it% I mean I think that you're going to see you know the glp crowd become just another crowd of zealots right just like any diet intervention keto fasting carnivore like the raving fans are the raving fans the more you go against them the more they're going to stand up for what they believe in and so you know if you're a coach and you really think that this is going to be around for some time which the data says it probably is for right now um not being willing to lean into it is you are absolutely artificially shrinking your total addressable Market 100% And and if that's a business decision that you're down with because of a personal belief that you'll back it with and like more power to you but I I would be hard pressed to find the one coach and that is you know not a data that is not a researcher but like somebody that is truly living in the field of coaching that can go out and show me enough research that says like I should not be willing to plug in because again like I'm not on top of my research game but I haven't seen it I remember working with I worked with I had a client who was um a psychiatrist um and also did a therapist and I remember we were talking about entics so anti-anxiety medications and at this time I was a younger trainer and I was like anti anything farmer right and so him and I got this kind of debate and he said Sally goes you're right you could take an enzoic and then just always take it forever he goes but my Approach and the success I've had is when people are so crippling crippled with anxiety that they can't go work out they can't do the things that that they know that we know that will benefit them then it makes big difference then what I do is I put them on and then we create these new behaviors and then we take them off and they've got these behaviors that stick with them and then the anxiety's gone or maybe they stay on a low dose or whatever because everybody's a little different y I think you're an idiot if you don't look at all the tools at your disposal so okay let's let's pull out of like the drug scenario and let's look at let's just look at fat loss through a different lens I think we all agree that extreme calorie deficits are not the best thing in the world oh yeah right could we also agree that an extreme calorie deficit used for two to four weeks at a time followed by a period at maintenance does yield a decent result sure could we also argue that it might be advantageous for the mindset of a consumer yeah so then are we really vilifying extreme calorie deficits no we're saying it's a tool and a toolbox and so here we are and like we're looking at this to yeah and and I mean you know shout out to you know Bill Campbell and like the lab down at USF they're doing research right now we're getting ready to fund it NCI is on rapid fat loss m and we're going to actually test pretty extreme calorie deficits paired with periods of Maintenance calories yeah almost like intervals I I think that that also that makes evolutionary sense that's probably how humans ate I mean I completely agree by the way but I is it really any different are we discussing anything different but again like I I think that it's the stigma it's the stigma that we're talking about a drug we we're talking about something that's been manufactured we're not talking about you know just behavioral control you know effectively nutritional interventions it's just Behavior change right at the end of the day are you seeing coaches now I mean kind of staying on the line of like of like using new tools are you seeing more and more coaches now use things like blood tests and nutrient tests because I I wish I had that available when I was a trainer I have a really mixed opinion on that so yes to answer the question yes I'm seeing a tremendous amount of it I also don't think it's great so I think as with everything when used properly it's fantastic I and I agree with you I wish I knew more about it early I actually went through uh a functional diagnostic nutrition program when I like was early in the space and it was so cost prohibitive for most people at the time to be able to order lab work and I never ended up using it very much but I think it's getting it's it's more easily accessed now um but now I think you're seeing coaches go online we like oh fearmongering right you're you're fat because your hormones are [ __ ] like you're fat cuz your guts are are [ __ ] and it's and and I think we're seeing the pendulum swing too much I think we're seeing coaches literally take something that like you said we all agree man like it would have been great to have access to these tools they're they're instilling fear in the consumers and I think that that's a that's a slippery slope you know what if we take that back to the glp conversation and it's like oh well if you haven't used glp to lose your weight like you're just you're just slowing down you're taking way too long and like what if that becomes the prevailing mess I think that controlling a narrative and and making sure things are done properly at the right time in the right sequence you know I don't think you or I would ever take an overweight person and immediately be like oh well you're overweight because your hormones are [ __ ] right like we're going to at least try some levels of interventions now if if we see maximum levels of compliance and things just aren't adding up might we de like dive deeper absolutely but I don't think we're starting there it's all how you use it it's like we with cgms are like this too like glucose monitors I think on their own client a person using it bys reading their blood sugar I think it's a waste of time I think if you work with a coach and they can connect the dots for you like oh your energy dip at noon that was a blood sugar crash and right here you're anxious blood sugar Spike let's see what food is and connecting the dots for the client is just now a tool that makes you that much more of an effective coach but tools by themselves I think are largely a waste 100% And I mean you know you know like I know about lab work when you go in and you look at Labs looking at one you know one piece of lab work like in isolation doesn't tell any story at all right yeah like it's it's really not a story it's it's a component and yet if you give people an isolated variable they're like oh well I'm going to make up my own story about it and so same thing with CGM you know they look at one data point oh my God my blood sugar so high like no [ __ ] you just had like a fruit rollup like like no [ __ ] your blood sugar spiked you know and so it's like you know I wore a CGM dude I became obsessed it was actually a problem well for someone like you see this is it was such a bad I would not have you use a tool like that because of your your your P yes it it actually triggered those behaviors did it 100% so what happened what did you end up finding that with yourself that you ended up just restricting more and more or sticking because I would literally just find ways to manipulate to bring the blood sugar down and a lot of times it was like and for you know for me a lot of it's like stress so it's like I didn't do a good job of that so I'd artificially bring it down by not eating or you know um yeah it was but just like the constantly being worried about what I was putting in my body which anorexic Behavior right like um great example of the wrong a tool that's for the wrong person absolutely and like you know the company had sent it to me for free and you know they were like just try it out and I thought it was great technology and I think I've had really good success using them with certain clients like I have a WWE wrestler right now getting ready for uh WrestleMania I actually really want to use it in the offseason with him uh he's probably going to listen to this so he'll know exactly who I'm talking about but um like he's he's the epitome of somebody that struggles to ride the line of the right dose response of stress and so it's like the more is better and dude like we're prepping for Mania now we're five weeks out and he looks the best he's ever looked at five weeks out and it's like yeah you're controlling stress this year like he has like a full day off he's he's working he's actually working with J fuja on his training and you know he's got an appropriate dose response there you know we've been able to feed him more we've controlled the cardio like he's he's not overdoing it he's like this for the first time ever I'm not going to overdo it and like we're in an amazing place and so um yeah I mean it all comes back to it all comes back to application doesn't it right like um when I when I buil NCI I I knew I couldn't reinvent the game like I couldn't manufacture new physiology or new bu like new biology or anything like that but I knew that nobody had really spoken to application and I think that if we're looking for educational protocols to evolve we're never going to evolve the science right we we may be able to speak to our understanding of the science but what we're always going to evolve is the application of the science and so if we're not keeping up to date with the GPS if we're not keeping up to date with the use of hormone testing things like CGM um and we can't actively speak about their integration into what we're doing then by premise we're a fraud right like because that's what that's the words that we took when we became a coach is that we'll always look for the best application for the client and if we're just turning a blind ey to it if we're immediately refuting it because it comes from Pharma then shame on us yeah I I I um I remember figuring this out halfway through my career because I think a lot of trainers and coaches also have the scarcity mindset where they they're like okay well I can't become an expert in this testing and I I don't know functional medicine I don't have the time to learn it and I don't understand peptides or whatever and then they're afraid to send these people to other experts that they work with or that they know because oh my God if they're spending money over here they have less money to spend on me I remember feeling that way but then I remember thinking look I just want my clients to have the best success so let's just lead with that here's what I found clients that worked with me but that also work with one or two or three other practitioners that I referred them to I ended up building a network never left the never left had tremendous success or the first to refer to you you know what I'm saying oh oh on top of it odly enough by referring to other practitioners you've now opened yourself up to referrals which you just instantly grew your lead generation yes right and and it's like but you're right though like it's the scarcity mindset but there's also there's a scarcity mindset of knowledge it's like I remember when I first became a coach I my knowledge base was just from the people that had helped me through anorexia and they were all very like bro diets like you know tilapia and asparagus and this and that right and so that was my knowledge base at the time and had you told me in the very beginning that like you could do this macro thing or like you could have like flexibility and I'm like [ __ ] off like you know my my premise was that food was fuel right because that's how an an rexic sees it and so I was just like you know there's no way and I I was unwilling to accept anything different and I look back and it's like what if someone's always like what are the biggest mistakes you made I don't think I ever intentionally advised somebody improperly like I've never once like woke up and was like you know what I really want to [ __ ] you up today like like that was never but like so I don't really think I made quote unquote mistakes I think I always gave the best of myself relative to my knowledge at that point the mistakes I made were really being close-minded to evolving my like toolbox so to speak and I think that that's what a lot of coaches have to now accept in this space that there are new tools it is rapidly evolving like I'm somebody that hates Tech Advance cuz like I suck at Tech so like when I finally understand it now I feel like I'm [ __ ] 10 years behind so I'm like why can't we just stay the same I mean that's it's like you know that's analogous to how nutrition Co yeah dude I'm getting old bro but likees exactly but that's how nutrition coaches are right now you know it's like a I don't want to adopt this new [ __ ] like oh like can't we just talk about food and behaviors here's how I think coaches should look at themselves I think think and we we we did a three-day course for for trainers and I I touched on this a little bit I think if you look at Health the professional health sphere you can include quite a few things in that right you can include yoga instructors you know uh strength training experts you got nutritionists you got functional medicine physical therapist arotic medicine Chinese medicine medit like you could put like lots and lots of categories in this health sphere and I I strongly believe that the coach or the trainer is at the center yep the coach and the trainer at the center who who understands what direction to point and where to pull from to help this person because for a consumer it's confusing yeah if you're a consumer and you just want to lose weight or you want to improve your health and you go online uh there's so many different approaches well I got this acupuncturist over here that says that they can do this thing over here and then there's herbs I can take but then there's this like performance supplements and then there's these all these diets and then I read that strength training is great great but this person over here says it's hit training and this person over here says it's all about yoga because I'm stressed out or whatever like imagine if you're that person in the center that they go to and they say here's here's my challenges here are my issues can you help me out and you said well yes I can help you out and I also have access to all these other resources and I'm going to use all the tools at my disposal to make sure that you find long-term success you have made yourself so valuable as a trainer and a coach that you're you're IR Irreplaceable I think that there's an important conversation that needs to be taught though to trainers on when to when to reach for that tool right like I think that one of the things you have to learn to resist with that client because what do you you get this client and they have already been marketed to they already heard and they're like I heard about this my friends do the gp1 and then my other friends got got the the glucose monitor I want to try that and like they want to try everything or they they've got a friend who something changed their life and I think that the real takeaway from the conversation that I'm hearing you guys are having right now is really that as coaches I think our our first and foremost goal is to is to apply like the foundational Stu that's why they're at the center stength training hit hitting your protein intake having balanced meals like things like that sleep stress managing all those manageable buckets behaviors around all those things and then and only then when we've been applying that consistently there's been adherence and we're we can't figure out why we're not moving now maybe go to blood work now maybe I reach out to a glucose monitor now maybe I I go over to gp1 like first though teasing out all that because I think if you try to do one of those as a shortcut you'll eventually make your way back to the starting line again I think there's there's very few Universal rules in Fitness Nutrition I and I think that all the ones like the few that there are are all governed by one which is that context is King and so I think that if we're looking at the lens of good bad ugly or indifferent it's it's always situation specific it's always going to be contextual so how can we sit here and and refute anything how can we immediately Outlaw anything and absolutely make the blanket statement that it's bad if we don't even understand the context by which we're talking like you're you're going to tell me that we get a 500 PB person and glp could rapidly accelerate losing their like losing weight and because it like doesn't support muscle or any of this that like them getting like [ __ ] 15% of that weight off faster is not a benefit yeah of course it is and and if that becomes a catalyst to the next phase like sign me up all day every day that's the point so that's why I said that the coach is at the center because the foundational fundamental stuff is what coaches know 100% activity basic diet stuff not like functional medicine diet or whatever but like Diet exercise sleep managing stress and then building behaviors around that and then you look at the tools either reach for them when the other when when the foundational stuff is is not working or reach for them to help support the foundational stuff like if sleep is a major issue and it's really hard and they're doing all the foundational stuff turning off their Electronics night eating right before bed this that and the other now you're like okay you know what there's some herbs from arotic medicine that have been shown that help you know temporarily with helping people get as sleep or maybe a little bit of melatonin may help with this particular individual you know type of deal that's why I said they're at the center intervention needs to lead to the fun fundamentals yes now that's that's how valuable trainers and coaches can be if they fully understood where they were in that in that wheel well Adam you were you were kind of describing a client that gets shiny object syndrome yeah imagine being the client and your trainer gets shiny object syndrome yeah put yourself I that happens a lot no I do I think it happens in like in gyms a ton oh my God like well especially you get someone you get someone coming in and like one week they got their client on like a general strength routine and then the next week that train is influenced by somebody that says hit is the best and then you're looking at three guys that did cross and like you're looking at three guys that did that probably for the first three or four years we were bro I watched like when I ran the studio in uh in Beverly Hills I watched trainers do it every day I I remember one time specifically I was reading a muscle and fitness magazine and for whatever reason I I like I just like I just like saw like this workout and it like like stuck out in my head and I walk in the gym and I see this trainer taking this client through the exact and I'm like and she was like she was like a fitness model I'm like I know for a fact you read that [ __ ] magazine today I'm like I know you're literally implementing some [ __ ] from a magazine but well then then you add layers to this when you incentivize the trainers and coaches in this cuz that's a whole another conversation yeah because that's and I think that's part of what the problem is right now is that you if you pay them well off of all these these products it's really easy to want to default to that well dude like the the last time I was here like the last episode we talked about scalability and and I think that there's definitely a there's a relative cap I won't say an absolute ceiling but there's a relative cap on scalability of coaching businesses and training businesses and you're going to tell me that I can increase my average customer value by offering certain supplements [ __ ] right like I mean dude there's uh you know horoi had gym launch and then he had Prestige laps and so every gym owner that he put in there he's like well you should sell these supplements here's a fat and dude they were paying out like fat commissions like 40% commissions and he's like here you go everything you sell you're getting paid 40% you have no overhead on this literally zero risk just sell it and it's like average customer value was going up every single day like d i mean I'm not going to say no trainer knew what was in those supplements but I'm going to say that a a a large majority did not do the research 24 finish did it with apex apex did the same thing Apex nobody gave a [ __ ] how much can you get paid I'm going to generalize but I think I can generalize safely here the the best business model for a trainer or coach uh is to get your clients long-term sustainable forever results that's not a generalization that's a fact I think I think I think I think because there's more that goes into it right but I think that's it like if you just if you lead with that then you'll be able to resist the temptation of the quick dollar because you'll know this actually although I'll make fast money now it's not going to lead to long-term success for me so I I won't say you'll resist the temptation of the quick dollar you'll take the money when it's the right money to take and I think that it's I think that's where a lot of coaches go wrong and you we touched on this previously like when I was here last time it was like the not every dollar is the right dollar um I would probably argue we've all made that mistake in this business where you know someone's willing to pay you and you take it or you can sell a supplement to them and you take it and it's like like the overarching like like the one thing we should all be chasing is is this right for my client results and if the answer is yes and it makes you more money amazing sure if the answer is no and it makes you more money then [ __ ] say no yes that's got to be number one it's funny you were talking about all the different Trends Integrity in gyms I remember I remember when I started in the in the fitness uh industry 1997 uh everybody kind of worked out it was a lot of machines a lot of aob classes back then and then all of a sudden I want to say maybe in 2000 or 99 there was this like f they at the time functional functional workouts were like a like became a thing and I remember all of a sudden overnight functional back then was like standing on a bowo I remember looking around and all my train at this time I'm a general manager all my trainers are doing traditional exercises except people are now standing onos yeah or on wobble discs and on like we one tricep press Downs on one foot on the din disc it got really out of hand and I remember looking at that going okay this is uh this isn't working that is that is what we would argue was the misapplication of something that was meant to be sucess it's unfortunate because there's some application to that stuff bized so much so now we've like FAL training in and of itself is fantastic I mean like the human movement model bending twisting lifting carrying squatting like all great things that I think should be in in programming but you know again weight loss AIDs that have Merit that are safe probably great in a lot of programs but we're not going to tell every human on the earth that they should be doing functional training whatever the bastardization of that means today and we're not going to tell every human on the earth they should be on a weight loss drug like it's it's always going to be situation specific if you had to start over as a coach now besides you know building your business which was a whole another conversation but just in terms of how you coach people which of these tools or how would you look at these tools how would you start off and say okay I'm going to learn about this or I'm G to start working with this or what what are the first places you would go I mean I learn the basics first um I think the next thing I'm I'm of the opinion that hormones are a big player in the game I think most like like at NCI like our whole premise is like almost all change is predicated on stress and adaptation and so when we look into the inability to adapt to stress it's largely hormonal um so i' probably go there next um then I would probably and and a lot of people are like thinking like gut and I'm like ah like I think gut's extremely popular right now so it's like not that much of a passion of mine but that's probably when I would actually start looking more into the peptides I think that it's an emerging science I think that there's a ton of safety that is going to start coming with it because of how emerging it is and I think I would want to be on The Cutting Edge of something now you're asking me what would I research not what would I use yeah and so what I would use would be different what I would use would be the basics then it would be the hormones and I probably wouldn't use any of the stuff I was researching on the peptide side because it largely has no merit but hedging my bets against the future I would want to be on The Cutting Edge of that because I think it would give me the opportunity to be an industry leader yeah 100% that's exactly what I would do I wish I could do uh when I was a trainer I wish I had access to blood tests and able to refer people based off those things uh myself I used to send them out to other people who would do them and I learned how to read them from there but I didn't have access to you know to those types of tests so I wish I did and hor I think is absolutely I think in combination with uh exercise and diet and lifestyle uh number one oftentimes you don't need to work with uh any hormone therapy if they do those things but number two if you do need to use hormones it's a game changer you mentioned the gut which is interesting to me I agree with you when we first started the podcast we started talking about gut health in in our space and everybody thought we were ridiculous nobody was talking about gut gut health now the pendulum swung so far so far that everybody thinks their gut health uh related issues arebo lose or why they can't lose um there's a you mentioned stress there's a huge and I'm learning this uh more recently there's a huge interplay between the nervous system and your gut health and you could treat yourself with all the antimicrobials and herbs and and Elemental diet you ain't going [ __ ] right but if your if your your central nervous system isn't working properly because of whatever stress or perception stress or whatever you want to call it it ain't going to happen nothing's going to fix it's it's funny because if you actually dig in and you research what a lot of these functional nutrition programs are teaching it's like well here's how to cure hormones here's how to cure gut health issues here's how to like it's all stress reduction yeah it like at the end of the day it's the same [ __ ] we've cies get better sleep it's like eat a little more sleep a little more do a little less do a little less intense [ __ ] like do some yoga like you know get your mind right yeah get some sunlight like weird it's like the same [ __ ] that would help you lose weight is actually fixing your hormones and fixing your gut it's like this magical thing and you know I mean they've I guess I I'm of the opinion that it's a lot of marketing hype right now like I don't I don't think that it's actually what it claims that it is no I went through a period of time where I needed hormone replacement and I'm extremely grateful that there were good endocrinologists you know and that they were able to advise me um but just like that I mean I I ran into my fair share of shitty ones as well and you know people at that time it's like oh he's got low testosterone like let's let's put him on you know less stress like that might not have been the solution you know so I think that it's always I don't know how else to say it and I think that it's probably the most overused and most cliche statement by successful coaches it depends it's context right that's the two the two words at at the top of your list as a coach should always be a defense you know you staying on the topic of like coaches and trainers and you know you get the opportunity to talk to hundreds of trainers at a time and you've spoken many many conferences you speak online to uh coaching uh groups and we talked we did an episode earlier about how the space is changing how how is your conversation different today than it was just say like two three like when you open up right open up you normally tell everybody F off and you do that so how like I ask them why the [ __ ] they're here always an there always a [ __ ] but I mean you uh like do you have like an opening statement or a thing that is different today that you that you're trying to get across to these trainers I'll I'll be really honest um I'm pretty much out of those rooms oh and so that's a statement though because I'm not actively researching how the industry is evolving as quickly right like like I've brought in people that are the best at what they do you know we've got Andrew garrettson who's now the president of NCI and we've got Alan Aron who's the chief science officer those guys are in the literature every day and so my statement of you're not getting Jason Phillips at the front of the room is if you want to create results like you need to [ __ ] be good those guys are better than me period like that's the statement and so if you're there and you're in the room and like just because my name or likeness might have sold you to be in the room you shouldn't want me to be teaching that sure you should want to be learning from those two guys from the people that teach you exactly and I learn from them every [ __ ] day and they're they're amazing like they're they're great humans but they're so talented and they love it and so it's like I think that is the statement and I think that anybody listening to this it's like you know you got to understand like why are you doing this you know I have I get so much passion I get so much joy out of seeing coaches reach their clients and facilitating change and that's why I index more on the business side like it's just that's what excites me these days right um I it's not to say that I don't know the importance of it I most certainly do but I think there's just people better suited to do it well you I mean that's so connected to what s had just said earlier about us being in the center uh as the coaches and directing our clients to all these other resources of brilliant people in the space that can can help your client out is no different the difference is you're not helping fat loss clients right now you're helping trainers and coaches build better businesses and instead of trying to be the guy who thinks he knows everything about everything you've outsourced that to people that are far smarter than any of us and you're helping them it's the same model you know that's it so funny and such a great takeaway for trainers to understand that and it is one of the things that we've been saying in this space since we started I mean I and I remember it all the way back to the gym space it was the the the single thing that uh gave me an edge on all my other trainers was that I was willing to share and and give and and all the information I was learning and at that time they were all more experience uh more ed more education they were more fit they were all older wiser more I mean they had everything but they stopped yeah right and so like as you're saying that I'm just I'm picturing the people I used to work with in the gym and like I was probably very similar to you dude I was learning every day yeah and been reading textbooks man I was reading like you know magazines and I'm reading forums online and I'm I'm reading anything but like I'm I'm doing my diligence and I'm researching why people are saying This and like I'm dude I'm soaking up absolutely everything and so like yeah and I'm sharing it with everybody around me even the notion that I wasn't yet the smartest trainer there people could see the passion they could see the pursuit and people want to be in that conversation yeah they want to be in the conversation of the pursuit of something bigger again that you will become Irreplaceable as a coach when you're that for your clients the clients that that have that relationship with you it got to the point where I I'd have clients with me for 10 years well they would ask me for a plumber or you know a mechanic like things outside of because they trusted me so much uh with the people I referred them to but they were lifers as a result and I think that if you take that approach whenever something comes on the horizon you need to learn it and know how to either apply it or argue against it don't just right away go uh-uh because uh you're not doing anybody any any any good that's the mic drop statement right there when something comes along you need to either understand how to apply it or how to refute it and it's like if you can do that man you're you're doing what you're supposed to be doing in this profession beautiful [Music]