Can Men And Women Be Friends? (THE REAL ANSWER)

Can men and women actually be platonic friends with each other? This is a hot debate on the internet right now, but we're going to add some nuance to the convo. Oh my goodness, if you do an internet search on this topic, there's literally like 300 threads that pop up, and there might also be 300 viral videos. You know those MOSs where they're like, hey, let's be honest here, guys. Can men and women really be friends? Joining us today to break down this topic, all the way from LA, we've got Nelly Nell Chan. Man, there's no right or wrong answer to this, but all I know is the gray area, it's complicated. Yeah, Andrew, so what's the answer? Can men and women be friends? Let's just give it to them. All right, so I think the quick, true answer is yes, they can, but it's tough. And we have a whole list of reasons why it is tough for men and women to actually be platonic friends. But it's possible, and everybody's situation is different. Things they need and expect are different, right? But let's just talk about why it's tough. So we're going to provide you the framework to understand your own situation, because it's never just a yes, and it's never just a no. Break it down. Number one, Andrew, I think the truth is there are different levels of friends, and it could be hard for a male to have a female as a level five out of five friend, right? But maybe like what? One through three, very common? School, work, your homeboy's girlfriend, something like that? I think like a four out of five is a girl that you would hang out one-on-one, or your bestie is a five out of five, or best friend. It's not common. Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of guys, most of their closest friends are guys, but then they might have a lot of girls who are at the two or three. They might hang out at events together. They do trust each other. They can be honest with each other. Maybe they throw the combined Christmas parties together and stuff like that. But yeah, you're not hanging out one-on-one, going on solo trips together and stuff like that. I think it is very, very, very, very tough for men and women to be best friends, but we'll get into it. Yeah, and we're not talking about people who are married, by the way. We're talking about singles generally dating outside of the marriage sphere. I will say this. I would say it's almost like it's not, it's almost like having a six-foot guard be your lead scorer. You know, Jalen Brunson, French Van Fleet, where they're dropping like 35 a game. That's like, it's rare. I've seen it happen. It's just not common. It's just not common in the NBA to have that scheme, and that's not common in life to have that scheme. Point number two, Andrew. It's tough, especially if you are a guy who generally has trouble dating. Yeah, this is a big, so this is part of the big debate right now where it's like, hey guys, I want to have female friends because I'm going to learn how to talk to women, and she's going to introduce me to other women. First of all, you should not only be in a friendship for that expectation. Yeah, how is that even going to work? Yeah, I'll tell you this. Spoiler alert, it's not going to work as well as you think. But anyways, at the end of the day, if you're a guy who has trouble dating and even finding women that you want to spend time with, you pouring your effort and time into a platonic female friendship and having that kind of fill that void is not necessarily a service to you. Yeah, I think sometimes, and I'm not saying 10 out of 10, but a lot of these guys, maybe they're using their platonic relationship with a female as a substitution for the actual thing that they actually wanted, which was a romantic and friendship relationship with one girl. They're just taking half of the equation to settle. Right, right. That's definitely not the right way to do it. Like you said, don't expect to do that. But maybe sometimes these guys need tips from their female friends to actually try to get at a girl that they want to. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I think it depends when you're coming in with a scarcity mindset, an abundance mindset. And perhaps that's why the manosphere is so big on this topic is because they're trying to caution against one of the examples that we just had. But obviously, like we said, it's not 10 out of 10 all fitting into that scheme. Moving on to number three, Andrew, it's especially tough if you're in the friend zone. That's sort of related to number two. Why is that? Because this is where the manosphere is concentrating all its advice to sort of prevent this thing from happening. Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, there's a lot of talk on the internet about the friend zone. We even made a video about it a long time ago. But I think the friend zone is dangerous because it tricks the girl out to thinking that she has a trustworthy platonic male friend when secretly you're trying to get with her or you would really be down for it. And then also, it doesn't help the guy ever get really what he wants because it rarely does it ever work out. So it kind of gets into this messy situation where it can get creepy and stuff like that. You hear stories from girls all the time be like, yeah, he was my friend, but then he kept hitting on me and kept sending me these messages, so I just had to distance myself. Obviously, that's not a five out of five. That really isn't. All right, and I'm not saying that this is true or not. Do girls have any responsibility to identify guys that are in their friend zone? Because I notice that there's girls that are completely unaware that they're friend zone a guy, and there's other girls that are super cognizant of it. But either way, they probably shouldn't. I know girls who purposely put dudes in friend zones just for their benefit or whatever. But it goes both ways, though. There's guys who accept to be in the friend zone just so they can get the girl's benefit, but then girls put guys in the friend zone so the girls can get the guy's benefit. But it's just a bad, toxic situation, because, like, it gets awkward, like, when someone confesses their feelings for one another, and it's just all bad. Yo, actually, so for me, a red flag of a woman that I'm trying to date is that she purposely has friend zone a guy. I don't like that. Like, I don't like that she did that because I think that's kind of schemey. Like, if she found out that he had more feelings and was like, hey, I'm sorry, we have to distance ourselves, that's, like, the more responsible way to do it. Yeah, just straight up cut him off. Versus if she's like, yeah, I know he's in the friend zone, and I'm like, what are you gonna do about it? I think when both parties, like, let's just say, for example, and there's this example, there's a male and a female, they're both, like, actors and actresses, so they're both highly desirable people. If they've both friend zoned each other, that's a lot different than one party having a lot more leverage than the other friend zoned the other. And number two, Andrew, what's the cuddle buddy situation? Because this is, like, a new thing. A lot of people were talking about how there's this middle area called the cuddle buddy where it's, like, you get close to the girl, you get to hug her and maybe cuddle with her, like, legitimately cuddle. You guys get to release oxytocin together. But she's controlling it and being like, no, like, we're not romantically involved, and we're not gonna go further than this. I mean, this is kind of... Nell is, like, shocked. What? Is the girl in the driver's seat for this? Yes. I would say the girl is in the driver's seat in terms of friend zone situations nine out of ten times. Yeah, true. I'm not saying ten out of ten. You know, there's always exceptions to a lot of things. Girls really be agreeing to this cuddle buddy thing? That do be sipping for those dudes who be agreeing to that? I mean, Ashley, it could be good or bad for the guy, but... Maybe they... Maybe it's an even exchange. Anyways, we'll get into it, guys. Number four, it is tough to be friends with women if you are both attracted to each other. So this is different than the friend zone because friend zone is usually one way or the other. But this is when both are actually, like, looking at each other and always kind of like, yeah, well, if the time was right or we had enough drinks, I don't know... I could see you with me. I think if both people are attracted to each other, that's already... You've already taken it out of platonic zone completely. When it's one-sided, it's friend zone, right? Either way. And I think the only way that a truly platonic relationship can work between a man and a woman on any sort of sustained, consistent basis, in my opinion, is when there's literally no attraction to each other. When you're like... You can't just be one or the other. It can't be definitely both liking each other. It literally has to be both not liking each other. Working hard on proactively not liking each other. Here's what the girl should say. She says, oh, no, he's not even my type or I don't even find him attractive. Or the guy has to say, like, nah. Like, Sarah's cool, she's my friend, but I don't even find her cute. Like, they almost have to literally say that to themselves because if there is that physical attraction and they're friends, then all it needs to do is just... It's just a volcano waiting to erupt. Oh, 100%, 100%. I mean, I feel like that's why people can be, and everybody's family structure is different, like, the ones they're born into. But, like, it's easy to be friends with your cousin if your cousin is from an opposite gender because it's like, well, we're family. It's all good. Right. And that which brings us to point number five. It is tough, especially when you get older, to make new friends with the opposite sex. Like, past college, if you didn't grow up with these people, if they're not part of your family, obviously, or if you didn't even, like... If there's not some type of, like, deeper bond that you guys share together, it is tough to make new men and women friends because everybody got their life going on. Dude, it's even harder to just make, like, just friends in general, even of your same gender as you get older. I think life is just more complicated. There's a lot more at stake. Things become a lot more transactional versus when you're young. So, you throw the gender difference on top of that, it becomes even more complicated. I'm saying it's complicated to have just any new friends in your world. Right. Yeah, you're right. And this applies to just even just any type of friendship. Because relationships, friendships, they're very similar, right? But I would say a tip for this is, like, if you want to be friends with a girl, like, have some type of activity that you guys come together and hang out together to do, not just, like, meet up at the bar and have drinks because maybe meeting up at the bar and having drinks, that's something you got to reserve for dates with women that you're trying to date or that you're pursuing versus, like, friends. So, it's kind of like if you do an activity, whether you hike or do a martial arts or you go running together, you kind of get that dual purpose in there together so that you exercise together and you guys hang out. So, I think that's very important. And that also goes for friendships with guys, too. I just think, in general, time gets a lot shorter, so people are a lot more selective with who they're even just generally friends with at all. But I did notice, like, people that are in the military, they could sort of break free from this convention that we just said, like, where you're past 30. It's like, if you guys are really on some sort of crazy project together, that could be the bonding thing that creates, like, new childhood-tier-type bonds later in life. Obviously, in the military, they're going on, like, crazy, serious missions together. You know what I mean? So, I think that there can be catalytic experiences later in life, but it's just more rare. Right. Point number six, I would just say it's tough when it's clear there's not an equal exchange of value between the friends. Now, I know that this is gonna sound, that line sounds very transactional, but let's be real, and let's just be honest. Friends should add to each other's life, and it can be in different ways. It's not only like, oh, she has this job, she hooks me up with this product, like, I don't know, men's skincare, because she works for a skincare brand, and then I hook her up with this. Like, there has to be some type of value exchange where you can actually name it out. Like, I was talking to one of our other friends, and I was like, oh, you have a platonic friend, like, what do you do for her, and what does she do for you as friends? And you're like, oh, well, I listen to her vent, and I give her perspective, I'm a good listener. And then, in return, she helps throws, like, parties, and she's very social, and I get to go to those parties. So, there is some type of exchange. Oh, yeah, you're talking about Fred. Yeah, Fred right here. Yeah, we're talking about Fred behind the camera right here. We're talking, discussing one of his platonic relationships. Yeah, yeah, I was saying Fred, but just because people can't see Fred, so I just said a friend off camera. But, yeah, Fred's over there. Yeah, I think that it is true. Would you agree with me, guys, that, like, and, like, don't get mad at me, guys. Men and women typically live different lives. The structure of life is pretty different. So, theoretically, when people live a different structure of life, they have, I guess, like... Different values and perspectives. Yeah, different values, different perspectives. And there's two things, right? So, you could say, one, that doesn't align, so that makes it difficult for us to be friends. But to your point about Fred, Andrew, they offer something different that they can give to each other to create the friendship. Right, right, right. So, there just has to be some type of, I guess, exchange. It's kind of like a lot of people are like, oh, friends with, like, their business partner or something. I don't know. You just have to be getting something out of it, okay? And you have to be able to name it in your mind, actually. You have to verbally be able to say what you get from them. Yeah, and we're not talking about friends with benefits, guys. We're talking about friendship, the benefits of friendship. Right, right. Moving on to number seven, guys. It's also really difficult for men and women to have platonic friends. And I think that there's a reason why this discussion is always going so viral, and there's all these MOSs about it. Because a lot of people, somehow they don't have an open dialogue or honesty in their relationship. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, obviously, a friendship is like any relationship, right? There's boundaries, there's commitments. If one person is always trying to see the other person when they're in town, but the other person doesn't put in effort, are you really friends? There's a lot of friend zone relationships, to be honest. Exactly. The guy is going to be hitting up the girl to hang out, and the girl's like, yeah, I will if I'm free. And also, like, can you... I got to say this, though. One thing that I think is a true platonic relationship is if, like, let's say, for example, you're friends with this girl, and you guys are like four out of five or three out of five tier friends, and then she gets in a relationship, and it goes down to one out of five, nobody is sad about it. Because some people were saying, I knew this one guy who was like, yeah, man, I like this girl, and then she friend zoned me, and then I just was her friend, and I was like, okay, I'll just accept it. I'll be her friend. And then she got a boyfriend, and then I almost dropped off the map, and it's almost like I got broke up with twice. Oh, man. Oh, man, that's tough. Yeah, I mean, and I think that that's why if you're truly good friends, if you're truly at least a three out of five level friend or higher, you gotta almost be able to say, like, hey, you almost gotta have that talk, like, hey, you know, I'm sorry, I'm dating Rob, and I just can't hang out as much. And that's fine. And if you accept that as a guy, and you're like, okay, that's cool, that doesn't bother me, I get it, because she only has so much time in the world. Because you do that with your guy friends. If your guy friend gets into a relationship with a girl, you have to understand that they're not gonna be kicking it with the guys Exactly. There's many scenarios like that for both parties, you know, for a guy or a girl that you cannot hang out or talk to a lot with the opposite sex friend. Yeah, but I think that Everybody's like just got a time schedule that they gotta divvy up, right? Yeah, and I think as long as you're clear about that, like, hey, bro, you know, I gotta spend time with Sarah, you know, it's Saturday, so sorry, I can't come out to this thing. Anyways, guys, the last point that we're gonna get to before we get into our overall takeaways is, and this is a big one, because this is what a lot of the debate online was about. It's just tough. If you rely on that female for advice about other women, like you should not go into a friendship expecting that you are going to crack the code of like, I guess, dating women by just being friends with a woman. And also, I think there's also a sense that maybe like, not all the time, but like the advice that you get from women is not always the most, I guess, effective advice. That's what a lot of people are saying. We gotta talk about this. I would say this. If you're still in the phase where you're like going out and you're maybe trying to meet a lot of women and you're trying to date a lot and figure it out, I definitely think that the advice that your platonic girlfriend gives you may not be fully applicable, right? Because they themselves don't go out and I guess like, they never lived that situation. But I do think if you're in a long-term committed relationship with your girlfriend and you have a platonic friend, she can like maybe coach you through some of the things that your significant other is feeling that you might not be in tune with. But in terms of like, going out to like the club, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it does depend on what you're talking about. So like, if you have a platonic girlfriend and you're out dating a lot and that's like your goal, that's what you want out of life right now, and then that female friend cannot support you in that or cannot add any perspective, like just understand that and just understand why. What do you guys think about girls always being like, I'm the best wing woman. I am such a big good wing woman for my friends. I find that when women say that, I would say nine out of 10 times, they just making that up. I've definitely heard success stories and I do know some women who are really good wing women for their friends, but it's not common. It is not common. And depending on what world you work in, like let's be honest, because if you're in like nightlife or like she's a bartender or a bottle girl or she knows a bunch of other girls that are very social like that, that's probably more how it works. Where they at though, man? Yeah, definitely wing woman in terms of approaching like a random girl in public, probably not, but I've definitely seen it like you said through networks. Yeah. I think the best way is that a woman is like, hey, I have a friend that wants to meet you or you should meet, like sometimes that's worked out, like matchmaking. That's more matchmaking than wing womaning. You know what I mean? There's a difference between those two and I think we have to be clear. When people say wing woman, it's like they can help you get, you know, laid with that other person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like not like, because like a lot of girls can introduce you to like their female friends, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll go somewhere. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's nuanced. A lot of people, like you said, you know, there's disagreement on terminology. Generally, your responsibility as a guy is like you got to more know what you're looking for out of life. But anyways, let's talk about our takeaways, guys. Hopefully that list was helpful. David, what is your overall takeaway about this whole debate? You know, it's been on TV. Men and women can't be friends. And it's crazy how trendy it is because not only have gender differences always existed, right? Stand-up comedy in the 70s and 80s was primarily about the differences between men and women. And it seems like it's like 40 years later and I don't know if it's, it's probably, to be honest, due to changing gender roles in society and a lot of macro movements that didn't exist 10 years ago. It just feels like why is this topic so trendy right now? Because there's so many, there's entire channels that are dedicated to asking these questions that weren't in a book like 50, 60 years ago. I think it's because a lot of people who watch videos and look for advice on the internet, they want the yes or no question. They want the yes or no answer, right? They're just like, oh, make it easy for me. Oh, men and women can't be friends. Good, cool. I just don't have to go. So that's why they watch like Fresh and Fit and that's what they would say, right? Yeah, I'll just never think about having a female friend. Now, obviously down, but I think that's why our conversation is important because we're just, we're explaining to you why it's tough and the things that you probably need to get over about yourself and her in your guys' situation in order for you guys to actually be good friends. But I also think, again, I stand by, I think it's tough to be best friends. It is tough. If that bond is not forged in fire over years and years. I absolutely think, long story short, like my major takeaway is that people do need female energy in their life and they need women that are really respectable and have a high position and whether it's your mother, whether it's your cousin, whether it's your sister, whether it's like a, you know what I mean, auntie, like somebody is very, very, very important to have that. But in terms of like the situations that a lot of guys, I guess majority of the times find themselves in and this is obviously not all, but like, you know, type of lopsided situations, those are probably not ideal. I think it's not impossible for, you know, a male and female to be friends or best friends or like, you know, like you said, you know, the levels between one, two, three, four or five, but it's just very difficult just like we talked about to have a four or five, a four out of five or five out of five, you know, male, female, best friend or friend because, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of things that go into every scenario and environment and it's just, it's complicated. Listen, to be best friends with someone is still a relationship. It's still a plant you have to constantly water. You still have to ask yourself like, hey, how does this person respond when I hit them up to hang out? And if that person is kind of like avoiding you or just being like, yo, I got other things to do, you're probably not five out of five friends. You're not that good of a friend. You know what I'm saying? So I think you just have to understand what you're getting out of the relationship, friendship, because relationship is, they're all, they're all similar. So I say, you have to understand what you're getting out of it and what you want and your expectations and then, you know, I think moving forward from that, you probably can be some level of friends, but anyways, guys. We're just encouraging the dialogue. I think the more healthy discussion there is about this is going to be good because it's crazy right now. City boys versus city girls. They turn it into a whole meme to a TV show to a cultural movement. You would not believe it. You know what I don't like to see? I don't like to see a video like this sharing the nuance and actually being helpful, not get as many views as some clip of some guy and girl being like, no, you can't be friends. Oh, no, I used to friends on this person because people like that kind of content. The bombastic lopsided. Yeah. Maybe if we had like a couple hot chicks in this video talking about this too, maybe we'd get more views too. Well, guess what? We're just three intelligent guys. All right. So, hopefully, that conversation was helpful to you all, but thank you so much for watching. Let us know in the comments down below what you think. Can men and women be friends and at what level? Let's be honest. There are different levels of friendship. I think that is one of our main points. And also, let us know why are these topics trending for like the next decade? Maybe until we figure it out or not. Let us know. Until next time, we're the Hot Paw Boys. We out. Peace.