Ukraine: The greatest stain on America's foreign policy? | The News Agents

Trump is frustrated and irritated and annoyed because he believes that the country he is able to pressure, i.e. the smaller country, does not give in to him. When you're on Putin's side, I bet Putin is a pussycat. Trump can't compute, he can't understand that in his mind Russia's bigger, America's bigger, therefore you little Ukraine should just do what we say. I say this kind of cautiously but i do think that this is the one of the greatest stains on america and its history of foreign entanglement the news agents podcast is brought to you by hsbc uk opening up a world of opportunity this is a global production ukraine has lost so many of its men And Russia, too. But Russia is a massive country. Russia has millions of people. 150 million people. Does that war end before you leave office? It should end soon. I think they actually both would like to see it end. But I think I find Zelensky to be more difficult to deal with than Putin. I find Zelensky to be more difficult. Could that have anything to do with the fact that Donald Trump wants essentially for Zelensky to surrender, for Ukraine to give over land that Russia hasn't even conquered yet and Zelensky funnily enough doesn't think that's a particularly alluring prospect and so keep saying no to the terms on which Donald Trump would like Zelensky to accept a peace deal with Putin I mean when you're on Putin's side I bet Putin is a pussycat to deal with and when you're giving Putin everything he wants as Donald Trump seems to be doing given his behavior of the last week i bet putin is the easiest the nicest unkindest loveliest person to deal with well we have yet more uh evidence if any were needed don't we john that you know putin has played trump like a fiddle yeah for the last two years and for the four years before that when trump was president before um look i mean trump clearly believes trump has a sort of electoral prize obviously because with the midterms he thinks that russian oil is some sort of potentially sort of philip to him and to the republicans uh for the midterm elections but again and we've talked about on the show many times over the last two years since Trump came back you can you can hear it in in Trump's voice again now Trump is frustrated and irritated and annoyed because he believes that the country he is able to pressure i.e. the smaller country does not give in to him and to Putin because they in his head are stronger than are they're both stronger than Ukraine than the weak country and Trump can't compute he can't understand that in his mind Russia's bigger America's bigger therefore you little Ukraine should just do what we say which is a you know a deeply kind of um realist attitude to international relations a deeply cynical one it is you know the poor must suffer what they must it is always Trump's sort of analytical framework and what he doesn't spend a moment to it seems to to think about is that being easier to deal with i.e. Putin is not the same as being more willing to make peace the Ukrainians would love to make peace tomorrow all the Russians have to do is stop fighting i mean at the very level might even leaving the disputed land if they could get to an agreement on a ceasefire to simply pause where things are at the moment that would at least be a start but it's not something that Putin wants to give. And it's not something we can even see that Trump is especially asking Putin for. So as you say, John, it is not especially surprising that Trump finds Zelensky harder to deal with because Trump cannot understand that Zelensky simply doesn't submit to him. I say this kind of cautiously, but I do think that this is one of the greatest stains on America and its history of foreign entanglements that, far from standing up for the underdog or fighting communism, which it tried to do in Vietnam, albeit absolutely cack-handedly and awfully, and losing, this is about America siding with the aggressor, siding with the autocrat, siding with the kleptocrat. I mean, it is just incredible that a country that wanted freedom and that wanted democracy and that wanted to be firmly into the West's orbit is finding itself being treated as an enemy by the United States of America. And I find it, as a piece of American foreign policy, incomprehensible that Donald Trump... There is something bizarre about Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, which we've talked about before, but it really feels to me like, you know, that song in the Jungle Book, I Want to Be Like You. I think King Louis, Donald Trump wants to be the guy who's got the secrets of everything and just being king of his own jungle isn't enough, he looks at Vladimir Putin, thinks he's got everything, I'd like to be an autocrat like that, I'd like to have control over my country like that, I'd like to have the longevity that you have, I'd like to be able to control the industry and the firms and have people paying me off in their billions, that would be my idea of heaven and he hasn't got it, well I And the remarkable thing, John, isn't it, is this week is that Russia has made precisely zero concessions in exchange for Trump's decision to lift sanctions. Yeah. Like none. None. As far as we know, Trump didn't even ask for any. Right. The White House hasn't said that he'd ask for any. And on top of that, at least you could say, well, if it's had some effect on on diesel prices in the US, been no effect at the pump whatsoever. Average U.S. diesel price, $6.32 a gallon on Thursday compared to $6.29 a week earlier. So all he's achieved is given Vladimir Putin a multi-billion dollar bonus. Yes, and also a clear signal that the Americans are not actually that interested in his stopping the fighting, fundamentally. I mean, Trump promised everyone will remember to end this war within 24 hours. then it was by Easter, then it was a year then it was you know it was just yet another fantastical you know fragment of fiction in Trump's head um but what Trump has basically done is is actually inflame a war right, is actually intensify basically a war that he promised to end because he's basically given a very firm signal to the Russians that in exchange for some pretty paltry transactional politics he's not interested in exerting any pressure on the aggressor and that's been a theme that's gone on throughout the war look there are people who say and i think you know we should listen to this i think you know you and i both very much firmly of the view that you know Ukraine needs to win this war there is obviously a perfectly legitimate critique to say this war has gone on for four years for four years it's longer than the First World War it's been extraordinarily bloody on both sides Ukraine has defied all the expectations and even the expectations of Trump a year ago him and Vance basically saying you're losing if anything Ukraine has been on the offensive but we kind of know look there's no end in sight and it isn't clear that the current strategy you know this could go on for another two years or three years or who knows so it's probably legitimate to maybe say right do we need to adjust the strategy here or ask some tough questions about what the future might look like but that's not what Trump is doing Trump is just basically insisting the Ukrainians acquiesce to him for American national economic interest whilst paying no attention whatsoever to clear Ukrainian economic and political and security interests which obviously is just absurd the thing that kind of puzzles amazes bewilders me is that you look at Trump he is a proud man he wants to be seen as a winner and he's being treated as an absolute schmuck by Putin who just walks all over him who humiliates Donald Trump. Donald Trump says there's going to be an energy ceasefire and Russia goes and pummels the ---- out of Ukrainian power plants and leaves, you know, hundreds of thousands of people sitting in dark, unheated rooms because of it. And again and again, Putin is just laughing at Donald Trump and Donald Trump, like some pathetic lapdog, says, oh, I'm going to come back for some more because I really love you, Vladimir. It makes no sense at all. But, you know, look it's not about any longer Donald Trump finding a way to pathway to peace which was a noble ambition and i think he's sincere when he talks about the thousands of lives being lost and how awful it is but he has come down on Russia's side now and that is a judgment that he's made and that is a judgment he will be judged by do you know what i love you Vladimir in Russian is, Trump? Well, I look forward to you explaining to it. I love you, Vladimir. Okay. That's good, wasn't it? For any Russian listeners, would you please mark Lewis Goodall's strangulation? I love you. Just do it one more time. I love you, Vladimir. Who needs Duolingo when you've got Lewis Goodall? We'll be back next week. We'll see you then. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. The News Agents podcast is brought to you by HSBC UK opening up a world of opportunity this has been a global production