How to make money taking baby photos - podcast with the AMAZING Matt & Jessica Cramer..

these photographers made $22,000 in a single month photographing babies and they're going to show you how you can do the same thing They've been voted as the top photographers for baby photography in the city of Los Angeles and I want to welcome Matt and Jessica Kramer to the podcast Thank you It's great to be here So you have photographed over 2500 babies You have a flourishing newborn baby photography business and you've made an incredible reputation for yourself in Los Angeles and way beyond Can you just tell me how on earth did you start this business like you two weren't hatched from the egg as newborn baby photographers How did you do it did you have careers before that is correct We uh were not hatched Um yeah so I came from kind of the television industry I worked in television in multiple areas And so around 2009 I had uh there was a little bit of a recession back then if you remember And I had lost my job And so I had just remembered uh talking to Jess like what am I going to do i don't want to go back to this I don't want to do that And she says you love photography You just need to figure it out with photography So I just started picking up my camera again and shooting you know various subjects Um put a website out with a couple of uh family photos that I had done And so um that's kind of how it started And uh Jess at the time was working her corporate job Yeah So I was in apparel licensing very corporate job traveling the world Um but you know very businessoriented a lot of budgeting and buying and merchandising Um and then you know kind of when Cole was born Yes Our son Um he really was our first newborn Right Yeah So my son so I had lost my job I think it was in December of 2008 and but it was a godsend right cuz I didn't really want to be doing that job And so and then my son was born in the beginning of 2009 And all I remember was thinking "Oh man I've got to photograph him." And so I put him on my kitchen island I put some hot lights up and just a kind of a black fabric and I photographed him And that become a our baby announcement And so then I kind of remembered looking at Jess going "You think we can do this?" At that point in time was it intimidating at all when you were thinking "Okay I'm a hobbyist photographer and we want to take that jump into being professional paid photographers." Was that an intimidating or a scary thought for you at that time yes quite very much so um because I didn't really set out to become a newborn photographer and honestly I couldn't do it without my beautiful wife here But um I just remember thinking I have a newborn Um I'd reached out to a number of wedding photographers and then I was like I guess I'm the type of guy I don't really want to work on the weekends Um I wanted the time off I kind of wanted a normal structured life like during the week Um and so I was like newborn or I was like um wedding photographer I don't know about that And then I was like oh I really want to be a wildlife and landscape photographer but All right I like hearing that Awesome I want to be in my Sprinter van traveling the country but that wasn't really possible uh with a baby Yeah And so it was like then we kind of put on our business hat and we're like well what are people going to be paying for what are people going to what's always going to be around so you got weddings and you have babies And so we said let's just try and focus on babies So that's kind of how it evolved in the beginning Then it also really afforded us the time to uh be there for our child you know so we could pick him up from school and and drop him off Flexible lifestyle for sure Yeah Yeah So at the very start you were making the transition from hobbyist photographer into professional photographer Did you find any of that process intimidating like you were unsure about how you were going to master camera settings or finding customers I mean was that a real challenge at that time 100% You know I I always fashioned myself as being a decent photographer You know I wouldn't couldn't wasn't being paid I couldn't say I was a professional photographer but I do remember just kind of going how are we going to do this i mean we I got to make money I got to make a living And so and I guess maybe all photographers think this way or artists or or whatnot is you have a picture in your mind of what you want to create and now how are you going to create it and in 2009 2010 2011 there weren't the video tutorials that there are right now There were some people that had already done very well and um been successful in newborn photography And so really the only option was to do a mentoring uh session or to to do a class with them but those were expensive as well And so we were kind of like trial and error kind of doing things Yeah Um and so there was a lot of nervous tension you know going into it but at the same time we had each other to kind of lean on Totally I it's you know it's always you know nerve-wracking or imposttor syndrome when you first start out on a new business endeavor And you know am I good enough am I do I know myself enough and you know I don't know if I we talk through but you know Matt's the full photographer He does all the shooting and then I do all of the newborn props and posing and soothing and handling and all of the beautiful wraps that are in all of our in our work So we knew we made a really good team but each of us had to obviously get comfortable and hone in on our specific roles And you know just doing that takes takes a little time And like Matt said we were able to find an amazing newborn photography mentor Amy of Do Drops Photography She's incredible And we loved her style And cuz after you know a handful of sessions and I know maybe a couple of months we were doing it a little longer we were like okay we need to find a really great newborn mentor and that she can really kind of hone in either our workflow or you know are we maximizing our time efficiently do we need a better flow and honestly when we met with her when she she came here to our home studio she was more like just gave us the confidence that we were doing it right and that we actually were on the right path to having you know successful sessions and happy clients And so that was really a turning point So Amy came into your life you brought her in and she was like a mentor and a coach for you And that was kind of a turning point for you to help improve your self-confidence and give you some extra skills Absolutely Oh yeah So in the beginning we were using both strobe and natural light And so I have this home studio where I have some very large windows and I was literally hanging um like huge diffusion sheets 12 by 12 to block these big windows because it wasn't north facing lights I'd get that kind of afternoon sun crossing across the light and I'm like "Oh this is it's this constantly changing light and when it was right it was beautiful." And so then I would you know switch to some studio light and maybe my modifiers weren't large enough and so my light was a little harsher than I wanted So there was just like some various things And so from the beginning to what we do now it's changed dramatically And then when Amy came in but then Amy came in and it just kind of simplified the process Yes Um it really helped to streamline a session And even little things like you know there you know in newborn photography there's a handful of bare baby poses that you normally do at the beginning of the session And you when you're first starting out you want to do everything that you see right you're inspired by this photographer who does these poses and this photographer that you know does these wraps and there's all these different you know variety And I think when you first start out you want to do everything and you want to overd deliver for your client and get all the poses in but then when you kind of like look take a look back step back and you know we worked with Amy our mentor and it was a one day full day mentoring oneonone just the two Matt and I and her You really she was like you don't need to do every single pose in every single session like you know get your your favorite poses the ones you're most comfortable with the ones that you like photographing and go with that and create a flow that works for you And when you get into that rhythm it just it creates so much more confidence and you know compared to when you start where you're just like am I doing this right you know am I am I delivering it up and you know what I mean yeah So I think that a lot of people who are starting out they have this sense of overwhelm because they look at what is possible They look at all the great photos online and they see all these different varieties of poses and settings and lighting and they think that they need to be doing it all So you're saying that you kind of at the start narrowed it right down so you were doing just kind of a focused type of photo shoot with focused uh specific uh poses It did take a little bit of time because I think we were both like the old give the old college try overachievers and like you know because I would with every session I'd be like oh this will look cool I'll just do this back lit one by the window and then I'll do this one studio light and then I'll do hands pose and with all black and and so I do everything my mind would just be racing with wanting to do everything and sometimes there were six seven hour sessions and I you know you're just wiped at the end of it and I think very quickly the lab was not sustainable we would not last yeah to Matt's point you know we'd do some we do studio lights and then we would do we'd open the would is do some natural light and then I was like we don't need to do that you need to narrow down to like I said the poses that you are comfortable with that you have perfected the wraps that I had perfected you know there's a twist knot wrap for one look and more of a a rounded you know um circular wrap for another look you know and then and with you you know we just back to studio we switched to all studio lighting studio lighting you know and so um and then you get really good about Okay what flows best let's start with the bare baby poses because they're more sleepy in the beginning of the session And then from there let's go to parent shots because the parents you know we don't want them fading towards the end of the session Let's get them more fresh when they're um you know soon after they arrive Soon after they arrive and and more you know allure as they can be with a newborn but it you know then after that we go into our prop shot So that is the flow that works that kind of made its way into our life and it it works now Yeah Give us an idea now What has the business evolved into now like what does the business look like what do you specialize in and where do your clients come from how far and wide did they come from how how big has this become for you so this business has grown into more than anything we could have ever imagined it You know I get choked up because I think about when we first started this how our main goal was to be able to be more present in our son's life and to be able to have a flexible schedule to go on vacation when we want to or you know take off when we want to pick our son up from school like you said So um this is you know and and building a reputation in such a large market as Los Angeles just turned into something so much bigger than I think we both ever thought it would turn into I would say you know we specialize specifically and you know our story is that we're a husband and wife newborn photography team Um we specialize in newborns for sure Um then we do babies and we do one-year sessions So that's pretty much our niche And um I also work on SEO and it's a big passion of mine on getting you know photography websites ranked So that was something that I worked on right from the start Um but really I always tell people when you niche down into something that you are really good at and you really want to focus on And honestly the types of sessions that make you happy and that you want to do try not to be something for everyone you know there's people that like a branding photographer a wedding photographer a family photographer you know and then all the other categories But for us we found I think because you know we make such a good team I'm really passionate about babies and and you know keeping babies comfortable and soothing them and making them look really beautiful for the camera and then that photographs them beautifully So we've built this reputation of having this just beautifully lit you know photography style for newborns that young couples you know new and expecting parents can't wait to hire us for which is awesome Yeah Let's talk about that for a second When when you do provide these photos for your clients what kind of an impact do the photos have in their lives like what's the feedback that you get how important are these photos to your paying customers these are moments in time that can never be duplicated replicated I mean once you kind of get into this 3-W weekek plus area the newborn sleepiness and the ability to kind of curl them up into these poses it's it's fading quickly And so I think parents realize that or some parents realize it when their baby's born some parents realize it a week after they're born Like it it just sort of hits them Um so sometimes we have the availability to get people in last minute It just sort of depends on our schedule But all of the feedback that we get is just incredible from how people are overwhelmed with the photos And you know I guess what I like to hear is you know we have certain packages that have a certain number of images that are included in the packages and of course they have the ability to purchase more images but then you know when people like I just can't decide and so I need them all I need them all And so and there's a price for that But um they they have the ability to purchase additional photos And I always want people to get everything that they love I mean that to me that is the most important thing not only that they love the photos but I want people to have everything that they that they love and and want to cherish forever I read on your website uh that you were talking about how important these photos are for your customers and and there's a quote here that when your kids are really young the days are long but the years are short and that these are fleeting moments for parents And another quote that uh about photographs that I got off your website photographs we create for our clients become pieces of their heritage their family's history and parents can look back at these images and be taken right back to that same moment in time when their baby was so tiny So are these like vitally important pieces of art that lends to the family's heritage and history that you are creating for them oh absolutely I mean we have uh people from all nationalities all over the world that come here Um and so they'll say "Hey can we incorporate this element from our heritage whether it's a Chinese it's a cultural thing it could be Korean it could be well we had like a lot of Year of the Dragon you know year of the dragon Um but you know we don't incorporate a lot of outside props but when sometimes certain things are extremely important to a client we'll make an exception just to cuz we know how important it is to them and how important is to the grandparents of that baby And so and we know that they're going to be looked at years from now So like we have a son who's 16 and we're constantly looking back at old photos and videos And so when you're a new parent you're not looking back at photos of your child because they're just born But we know that in 5 10 15 years they're going to be looking at these photos and just very appreciative that they have them Especially when it's be when it's newborn if you're a parent you've just had a baby a mom and dad you know you're sleepdeprived you're overwhelmed you're emotional hormones are you know adjusting for mom still And honestly like it is a very real possibility that they don't really remember that much from that time frame let alone like you know their baby's details the lips the you know their ears and their little hands and feet like even you know we have a a you know a photo that's highly requested with dad's hands you know cupping their their newborn baby and they'll it will be so hard for them to remember how little their baby was And so yeah these photos are like just a a freezing moment in time that is a very emotional moment for parents right and we help them remember it Yeah that's beautiful So since these are such valuable products really that you are creating you obviously at this stage in your business can charge potentially a a very good dollar value uh that's going to be helping you on the business side Can you tell me when you first started you know those very first photo shoots how much did you charge then and how much are you charging now oh what did we charge away first i think so When we first started um first we did model calls We did a few model calls which just basically means that you're throwing it out there We'll photograph your baby for free Yeah we did those for sure and uh we'll provide them with a handful of images so that way we can build up our portfolio But I think in the beginning you know we we had to ask ourself what is the minimum that we're willing to work I mean there's two of us Uh it takes some time It's our full time job We knew that we might be putting in extra hours right on the front end during the shoot and the back end But during the shoot what's the minimum knowing all these numbers that we're willing to work i think we started at like 500 bucks and that was for 4.95 4.95 for all the images and then the all the images that I had you know called it down to the gallery and said "Okay I shot three or 400 and I've got it down to 60." And so then I prove that and I go "Here's your 60 images." Yes And it just became and then it became that's a lot of editing It was a lot Yeah But also as our SEO and our our rankings on Google started to rise and our inquiries are flooding in Yeah It's like anything the demand goes up you know so does and we were Yes the price right so we're so busy we were like okay right So after a little while we sat down and we said what is the minimum price that we want to you know you for pick up your camera for and you know commit to your full day's work and then I I remember vividly we jumped to 8.95 I remember that And it was like okay so we jumped the price and then we lowered the the number to 30 files Yeah So we went $8.95 to 35 Yes I remember that And so it was just kind of this evolving price structure on what are we going to charge So now I think the minimum to get in is about 16 or uh well we have three sessions So we've also honed down our pricing and our structuring with them So we've got an entry level um session which is a mini swaddle newborn and that is only shots of the baby in swaddled setups in multiple props and that is only eight digital files and it is um you our entry level pricing And so from there we have then our middle tier which is 15 files and then our top tier which is uh 20 files and that includes family Yeah And the average spend is about 2,000 It's reasonable Very reasonable considering what you're getting The product that you're creating is incredible And it's a a lifelong keepsake for for you and your family U$ 2,000 is it sounds like even a low price for actually what you are providing I appreciate you saying that I might raise my price You probably should Um because it it adds to that exclusivity that that your business provides something that's very special that others cannot Yeah I mean I think if you if we were to look at other photographers in the market I I think that we are on the higher end of the price point for for the packages themselves I would say a large chunk of our clients end up doing what we call partial or full gallery buyout which adds a lot more uh volume and a lot more more revenue more revenue So that's where you're actually providing prints not just the digital files both Right Both So we're in LA right so we're not in a small market where a 30 mile radius you can get there in 30 minutes or under You know it's you could be 10 miles from my home studio and it could take you an hour and a half to get here So early on we realized we had to be more of a digital file business Now even like inerson sales which is big which is big in this industry where people come back and there is like this sales pressure to you know you'll see the the prints on the wall and uh and here buy this one in the moment which ones they want to buy I just knew that people are not going to come from Marina del Rey or from Manhattan Beach Manhattan Beach I mean that's an hour hour and a half That's an hour drive without traffic Yeah So it it's just it wasn't feasible So we had to go to a digital file structure Now I do provide prints and all kinds of and albums but really it's more of a pushing digital files but our our main increase revenue comes from like for example a session that has a 20 their package is including 20 files then they want to buy 60 So then we obviously charge for the additional 40 files and or digital photos Um and then we also offer albums and farm frames and hanging canvases and metal prints and things like that But I would say the majority of clients and our extra additional income comes from buying additional files above what's included in their packages So most of your clients really the product they receive are just the digital files And then your upsell to try and increase your average order value is is by offering them more digital files more digital files and products and and of the products I would say albums and grandparent brag books are the biggest albums and grandparent brag books What what is a grandparent brag book yeah Oh so we have a main album that is of extremely high quality and then you know through any of the large printers we'll we'll be able to make a smaller album that uh the price point for us and just the overall quality is just a touch below the photographic paper on the main album So we offer these lower price point albums as a keepsake or a giftable from the parents of the the baby to the grandparents Yes So that way they can share the love of the session with them Right And do you actually advertise all of these packages on your website we do not have pricing on our website That's something that we don't have Um I think that might be what our like average is How are you selling then are you selling over the phone or you send an email package how how is that done so Tim I gotta be honest with you I'm a great salesman and I have sold in person and I have made people go from not wanting to spend anything to dropping this is years and years and years ago to dropping 4 500 1,000 bucks However when it comes to me in my own uh like home studio and trying to sell I have more of a soft sell approach I am just more like I'm here to provide a service I'm here to provide prints for you I I'm not going to put the hard sell on anyone I just try to let the images speak for themselves The the first point of selling is our initial inquiry email that goes out right we get all over our inquiries.com that come and whether it's through Yelp or Google or Instagram or wherever they're coming from and I have a very indepth and thorough initial inquiry response email that is very clear on the packages we offer the pricing you know of each package if they we offer additional files and add-ons Um and that if and I attach a pricing like a pricing guide PDF to the email as well that they can review So really that email sells it That that's that's where they get all the information I'm extremely detail oriented and no one really ever has questions They'll just reply okay I'm ready to book and this is the package I want and here's my address You know let's generate our contract and invoice and move from there Right now I'm on your website right now We're taking a look at some photos and these are cake smash photos Uh this is for one-year-olds Tell me about these photo shoots because they look pretty fun But maybe maybe as the photographer they're not quite so fun as the as this baby makes a mess Uh well it just sort of depends So does Smash people love them but we have to set up very honest and upfront and transparent expectations managing expectations that they are not always they do not always go happy smiles and you know you know quickly there's there can be a lot of fussing and crying some babies want nothing to do with the cake they can't stand the frosting on their hands um so it it really is 50/50 but like this little girl right here that was a great she came in as a newborn and um we had a beautiful session the family's amazing at the end of every newborn session we obviously say like "Hey come back for you know the six to seven month old time frame or for the one-year cake smash." So they decided to come back for the one-year cake smash She said she really wanted to kind of do more of a a yellow in sunflower theme I think And so and that little girl she loved her cake and we got some great shots Yeah Right Yeah It's so Some love the cake and others don't Yeah Once a baby gets to one years old there some of that stranger danger element starts to creep in and although they were here a year ago um or maybe even five or 6 months ago you know they're they're obviously not remembering us or anything So it's a really a team effort It's not just me and Jess Sometimes it's me Jess and the mom or me Jess and the dad or the grandmother or or we're using a phone and we're getting um uh we're FaceTiming uh grandma you know and because that's what the baby's responding to So it's a team effort to try and get responses right and so um it can be a lot of work I mean sometimes we say we're just basically jumping monkeys uh or clowns trying to garner these expressions Yeah it must be quite a challenge to get all the expressions Um one thing that I really like about the notion of the cake smash as we think from a business model where you know every ideal business that has reoccurring revenue is the ideal business with with some kind of reoccurring revenue that goes on and on And when you think of newborn baby photography you would kind of think it's one and done but with the cake smash you're getting that opportunity to have the customer come back Are there more opportunities to keep that same customer coming back over time well yeah because we skipped a little category between newborn and one-year cake spash If you check our website it has the baby section and that's where we cover what we call a sitter session And that's for babies that are anywhere between six and eight months when they're just starting to sit up on their own independently And that's that's one of our Yeah There you go So So that's a that's probably one of our more popular you know sessions after newborn right over cake smash Yes We love it Yeah So when a client is here and we mentioned that we have two other sessions after the newborn For me personally the the sitter session is the best session Yeah because I kind of have this running joke with I like they're sitting house plants but that give you expression so they're not quite they're not quite crawling yet they're um and you can set them there that stranger danger hasn't really set in and you can just make weird noises and be goofy and get them to laugh and so that is kind of you know cuz they're not running off the set you know basically or crawling up for the most part but um so that's kind of my favorite one to photograph And um so that's so that you know after newborn we definitely have our you know sitter session and our cakes bass session which are the two um reoccurring revenue What if you were to kind of take a guess what percentage of your newborn clients go for the grand slam and they eventually come back for all three photo shoots i would say like maybe 20 to 25% might do all three All three Yeah And I would say 60 to 65% do at least one At least one additional one Yeah Okay That's awesome I almost hesitate to ask this but have you had any celebrities yeah we've had we get athletes and celebrities and many Yeah it's I don't really Yeah I don't really think about it too much I actually just doesn't really I have it on my calendar when we're shooting but I don't really even look So like I'll I'll shoot and then I edit and then I deliver And so Jess is handling all the upfront communication And so sometimes she won't even tell me and then I don't look at my calendar close enough to see like a name or anything And sometimes it's in the wife's name So if it's the husband's a celebrity I don't know That happens a lot actually Then they come in recognize you right had this one football player come in and I was like "Man this guy's big you know and uh and I said and he had like a diamond encrusted necklace with a huge football on it and I was like I was like I'm thinking college football Like my brain is so into I need to get the baby photograph All I'm thinking about is how am I going to photograph the baby and have a little bit of dialogue with the parents to kind of make them feel at ease But I noticed this massive you know diamond football Yeah And I'm like I'm like "Do you play ball or something?" You know he's like "Yeah." And I'm thinking college you know would you be or I don't know college you'd be too young but uh and he was like a major huge football I'm like "Oh my god you're so and so." And uh so it was kind of fun uh for that And then you basketball players you know I've got a 7 foot 3 inch basketball player you know ducking into my So it's fun a lot just being in LA we get a lot of entertainment you know uh people as well I'm pretty yeah that's cool music industry as well but it it lends me to uh something I wanted to mention is for me and I think for Jess cuz Jess has the baby and I'm kind of talking with the parents as Jess takes the baby and starts to you know um swaddle them up and everything and part of my enjoyment and why I love this job of course providing nice photos for baby or for parents uh is essential but I love meeting people I meet new people all the time from all different walks of life Um different careers different careers And it's just getting to know people's story to me is probably the most uh fulfilling part of this in addition to providing nice photos cuz I like to hear people say "Oh you know we uh well I like to hear people tell me how you know this is their rainbow baby They work or they work so hard this was their last shot at IVF and this one worked and you know and then we can go into more depth on you know their background and and just and where they're from and I just like to hear people's story and and connect with them that way Yeah that's awesome So we are in a time right now where the commonly held belief is that it's practically impossible to make money as a photographer or make money with your camera You know stock photography used to be a big thing back in the film age where you could make a real living by taking stock photos and then that was completely crushed And now you've got everyone with a cell phone calling themselves a photographer and as sh as such it's like a race to the bottom on pricing where uh paid photography is concerned So with all of that said have you been able to make a good living as professional photographers absolutely Absolutely I It's It can be done Absolutely Yeah So we you know we Well like how many years ago 14 years ago 14 years ago 14 years ago We you know made a push for this and it is our sole income Both of us are devoted to this full-time Um so you know there's a lot of photographers out there that do portrait photography or any genre of photography that it's maybe more of a side hustle or part-time but we make very clear not only on our website but to our clients up front that this is our full-time business And um we have been able to live very comfortably in Los Angeles We own our own home and we go on vacations and we generally have a very comfortable life Yeah it kind of wants me to talk about two points One is our our website is just newborn and baby up to one year So we're not trying to be a jack of all trades So I think a lot of photographers kind of really do a disservice to them I mean like create another website if you're want to be a landscape photographer and then an architectural photographer Just have two separate websites Maybe connect them through social media somehow But when your client is looking for you they're looking for that person not one that does maybe a little bit of everything And and two all of our clients are very well educated And so I think that because we're in LA it's a little bit more expensive to live here than other parts of the country Um it's just their understanding that they can't do it is very clear right and in the style that they're attracted to in the style that they want I see what they want and they go "Yeah I I can't replicate this or they they instantly know." I think just the amount of clients and the amount of inquiries that we have still coming in and have you know over 14 years now that it is no signs of slowing down for us Of course you have some months that maybe are a little slower but we also have historically high months that are you know January and and October seem to be crazy busy you know over the top so many babies being born But yeah you know back to your original question absolutely you can make a wonderful life and a very comfortable income as a professional photographer and our niche Um that is you know it's something that we're super proud of and we're able to continue doing and it's no signs of slowing down either but it's not easy but it's a hard Yeah it's hard work I mean there's a lot of work that goes in before and after Yep Yeah Absolutely So when we talk about getting customers you have already mentioned that you use search engine traffic to drive traffic to your website where c potential customers fill out a contact form and make an inquiry Uh do you aside from just search engine optimization do you use any paid traffic we do not We've never paid for Google ads and we never have had any sort of paid advertising The most I've ever done this falls into my realm um is pay I think an extra $25 a month to Yelp just to have an expanded portfolio but that's it So we devote basically zero dollars to marketing I think I ran a Facebook ad one time for like $25 Wow That's awesome there don't get me wrong there's definitely experts out there that can absolutely especially for beginning photographers that maybe don't have you know Google ranking or a Yelp um you know profile built up or reviews on Google business profile There's definitely specialists that can help photographers you know with paid ads whether it's Google ads or you know Facebook ads social Instagram ads that could definitely help We just have never had to do that Right So let's talk about uh equipment really briefly here We won't get too much into it One of the things that intrigued me a little bit is that on your website you have an article that uh talks about what type of gear to use for photography And you talk about the 50 mm kind of the portrait lens f1.2 or f1.4 Now when you are shooting at f1.2 do you are you really shooting at f1.2 because the depth of field is like not even half an inch Yeah Yeah I I never shoot at 1.2 I see photographers that shoot at you know 28 and I I guess I've never really found the benefit Um of course when I was shooting with a 5D Mark 3 um and now I'm to an R5 and so mirrorless is obviously the way to go Um but I would get so many missed uh you know their back focus um shots or just it would just misfocus and I'm an overshooter anyway So I was like shooting sometimes five six seven 800 shots just to make sure I nailed it right cuz you know I'm not zooming in for every shot after I shoot it And so I I I kind of um I'm usually more like in this 35 to to five range Um and sometimes I'll even drop down to a 35 mm Um it gives me a little bit more latitude uh with that And so I'm not I'm not as concerned about that depth of field being at 12 or 14 hours Oh you might have put it in Uh it's just I'm sure some people do but I'm so close to the subject that to shoot that shallow would just you know not really I don't really see the benefit Right So if someone was starting out and you had to give them one recommendation for a lens and I don't mean the brand of the lens but just the focal length and and uh how fast the lens is like the f-stop What would be your one and done here's the one lens you absolutely must have and it'll probably do everything for you Probably the 50 Probably the 50 And just like in a in a 14 or 18 Um because you're not you know you don't need to have a lens that fast Uh especially if you're shooting studio Um so I would just go with the 50 and then you know you can add on to a 35 later if you wanted to Um but the 50 will do everything Okay And what about retouching do you use Lightroom Classic for your retouching and kind of how much retouching do you do so yeah So I use Lightroom I use Photoshop and I retouch some of my own images And I also have a retoucher So it really depends on the volume that I have or that I'm backlogged So I have a retoucher who she knows the style that I like You know we've gone over it many times And so you know if I have three sessions in a week and you know let's just say every all the orders come in and it's everyone wants additional photos like my ability to and our our style has probably grown faster than my ability to retouch fast So I just can't do it from a time uh standpoint So I have to outsource some of it And so obviously if it's not the way I want it I say "Hey I need this redone." But um now with some of the AI tools uh depending on the baby and depending on the skin or the skin tone I can do it myself you know extremely fast faster than I could before So there's just kind of a balance between what I'm going to outsource and what I'm going to do inhouse Um and how many files that they bought for that session So if you had a full gallery buyout and they purchased all 100 employee images that's going to take me way too much time to do it myself It's better for me to just pay my retoucher to do it Yeah Yeah And here's another question about your your sessions from the time your client walks in the door until they walk out the door roughly on average How long is that time so on average in general all our sessions start and we only shoot on a weekday So Monday through Friday 10:30 right so it's a great time Parents arrive usually right at 10:30 and then we spend a little bit of time chitchatting getting to know each other I walk them through like all of our um you know safety and sanitary precautions that we take for newborns and just kind of show them around a little bit and then I usually get started shooting by 11 104 11 or so and then um depending on the session right we mentioned we have three sessions a more of a condensed you know entry level session and then a middle one and one that um includes family as well each of them have a certain amount of time assigned so our our mini swaddle session And I think we put an hour and a half 60 to 90 minutes 60 to 90 minutes Yeah So you know we start shooting at 11:00 Then you know we're for that session we're aiming for them to be out the door by 12:30 Um yesterday we had a baby that didn't sleep very well So for a mini session and they were here definitely longer than that which is fine We only book one a day But um but then our our you know middle and top tier packages I would say anywhere from two and a half to three hours and you know starting at 10:30 that's like finishing by 1:32 something like that Yeah there are times where it goes long I mean from a personal standpoint of how what I want to give to my client like every single time we go into a session Um it's not like you're punching a clock and and going "Oh okay You know your time's up or or anything like that." Yeah My job and I get so passionate about it our job is to deliver to the client So I want to wow them I want them to be so excited I want them to have a difficult uh choice you know really I want them to go I don't I can't decide I'm going to get more or I'm going to you know I love them so much I want them all So my job is to make their job difficult and and have a good variety So sometimes when we have a more challenging baby that's just not sleeping or there could be coli or any number of reasons Um I'm not really going to go oh you know look at my watch and go time's up We're going to we're going to keep pushing through until we can get the baby to settle a little bit more So yesterday should have been a 90minute session and it ended up I mean a little bit longer A little bit long a little bit longer but it was all good I mean they're great returning clients and you know we're we're happy to do it Yeah And we always say you know sometimes parents are like "Oh you know thank you so much for shooting you know going over." And we're like we shoot until we have a great variety to present as their proof gallery right so we want to feel comfortable And oftentimes during the session you know maybe towards the end we like okay let's do a quick review Okay we did you know this prop and the cream and then we did the green prop and then we did you know the the neutral setup and this bear baby pose and parents So we kind of like mentally and he Matt will kind of flash go you know roll through your camera Okay we got this Okay that's good That's good Okay Yeah Okay one more All right we we got we got a nice selection Make sure I have details covered Make sure I have all my wide shots Um you know anything that they specifically requested you know because we do ask them for uh what what kind of images that they want And so then I'll have to review and go do we get the hand shot do we get the shot with the teddy bear or whatever it might be and so um so we just kind of make sure we check off all the boxes on those Okay So what would be your advice to someone who is listening and watching this interview and uh let's just say that um let's just let's paint the picture Let's just say it's a a new mom who has a baby herself and she wants to create her own baby photography business What would be your advice for her assuming that she has good babysitting services from grandma yeah exactly So I would say probably first and foremost is you know start to hone in on your style what you like to do I mean like our style is different than our friend you know over on the other side of town She has a completely different style and she's a very good photographer But hone hone in on the style that you want Don't go too crazy on buying I mean I'm telling you these people go crazy buying props I'm gonna buy this prop this prop this that newborn And when you're just starting out you don't even know if you're going to be able to do it Like it might use the prop effectively Well use the prop but you don't know if you're going to be able to really become a newborn photographer because it might take you 10 sessions before you realize that it's not for you Um but I would say just keep it simple right the old adage kiss keep it simple stupid Just don't overdo it Keep it as simple as possible Um just start with that 50 like I was mentioning earlier and just a maybe a few props a few wraps and just basics Yes basics And I will touch on that especially if there's any newborn photographers or baby photographers listening that are starting out It's very easy to get caught up in the prop buying and the accessories and the hats and the headbands and the wraps because you know you want to you want to have variety um you know in your in your work But you will soon find that after you you know purchase all these different accessories and props you will only use a handful every single session and those are the ones that you get good at and you keep using over and over again So you don't need to buy tons of props and accessories Just buy a handful of things and get good at using those That would be my biggest advice from my posing side of it And because we have 500 headbands for girls 30 bucks 40 bucks each I don't need you don't need all the props Okay got it Uh last question about lighting So you mentioned that you use strobes Is there uh if you were starting out could you get away with using like a constant video light with a soft box on it or do you need a strobe uh I guess you could get away with it I don't know that it puts out enough light I don't have a lot of experience with um continuous lighting uh for stills Um so I've just become a stro a strobe guy And so that's kind of where I would kind of lean someone to And you know there's some companies out there I mean I shoot Profoto uh equipment but I would see there's a company called I think was it Pulsey Buff or something like this A lot of newborn control A lot big but big well huge I mean they have like the lighting kits and and whatnot but just a large modifier right the larger the light source the closer to the subject the softer the light That's the other thing too is see a lot of work Um and I'm like okay you know it's it's you know I don't want to disparrage anyone but it's like you got to have that nice soft light Babies are delicate you know little human beings and and a nice soft wrapping light to create that shadow is to me extremely important And so some people have smaller modifiers or it's just the light is just way too harsh So I would say really got to get that light that lighting tone down Don't be and don't be afraid to move your light Yes Right So I could have the same light and the same situation a 100 times But sometimes with the baby if the baby's head is a certain way I got to move the light or I got to move the basket or I got to do something So you cannot be afraid to move and move the light uh you know if it the baby's a little sensitive but two to three inches can make a big difference Yes Um in moving a light Okay So let's end off with with this one question Did you have something Jess no I'm good But I just say you know I don't shoot so you know but I am such a big fan of Matt's work in his eye and the way he mastered lighting for especially for for our newborns and that's I think just a glaring um you know signature of of our of our work Well I thinking I I would have to say this Sometimes we'll ask parents "How did you find us?" Right you know Instagram and then what my biggest compliment is is cuz I'm a man doing well I'm I'm a photographer but I'm photographing babies and it's kind of more female driven right um but what'll happen is so I have my we have our style which we're probably not going to deviate from because I don't want it to be too over the top I want it to be a little bit more subtle um classic and classic And so we'll have clients that come in and the wife will say I showed them these three newborn photographers You were one of them and showed them to my husband and the husband always picks me or you know that's feedback I get he picked you and it's because it's they just knew right away that our style was what they were looking was resonating with the the husband especially whether it's a boy or a girl No no cheesy you know props or themes It's just like very beautifully lit classic work So that's why they choose us and they know right away Yeah that's so good to hear So let's end off with addressing that husband So if let's just say that uh you're talking to a young couple they've just had a baby It's 1 week old and mom is trying to convince dad that they need they need to spend the money on a newborn photo shoot but he's saying money is too tight right now I really don't feel that we can justify this expense My cell phone is good enough anyway What's your advice to dad who is kind of putting the brakes on for the photo shoot you want to answer that no Well you always say you know um what do I say at the end of the sessions when you were like honestly like we'd all we don't think twice about going out to dinner you know spending the money on here in LA you know we drop a couple hundred bucks on a sushi dinner right but like when it comes to when it comes to your baby and um wanting to document and never forget these these special time in their lives and in your lives that you know think about it when you're comparing it to like do you want to devote any of your dollars to that versus you know getting a Starbucks every day You know of course it's more expensive but the the theory is there right yeah It's just kind of where are your priorities i mean obviously not in the room when the husband and wife are making a decision but uh I kind of use this analogy a little bit when it comes to maybe purchasing additional photos So like I love a sushi dinner we'll go out and my son now eats like an adult So it cost me a lot of money and so I have to ask myself I'm going to forego something else if I'm going to have that sushi dinner And it's kind of the same with photos right you have to make the choice like are you going to invest in photos with a reputable photographer or are you going to spend your money somewhere else and so I think there's also something to be said and I was just talking to another photographer about this last night is that as parents um it's so important to realize the importance of of your children seeing photos of themselves and seeing how loved they are from the beginning right yeah So making that upfront commitment of showing your kids or having these beautiful photos for your children to see and displaying them in your home and on the on the walls and they walk by it It just it really it builds such a beautiful like family love and confidence that like I am an important part of this family and I'm being displayed all over this house My parents love me so much you know yeah You're showing your child for the duration of their lifetime that they have been loved from the very very start So we will close it on that I love your photos I am so impressed by the quality of them Like as soon as I saw your website with the photos on it it was like "Wow I need to interview Matt and Jessica because your photos are just so incredible." So thank you so much for being a guest on the show And if anyone has any questions they can visit your website at mattcramerphotography.com Thanks to both of you so much Thank you very much for having us Thank you so much Really appreciate it