EP 154 - Cinematographer Salvatore Totino's Emotional Journey on Oscar Nominated - 'Cinderella Man'

The scene in the boxing office where he goes and asks for money, I actually cried while we were filming that scene. You really, really felt, you know, Jim Braddock, you know, it's such, you know, a prideful man. It's such a depressing moment in his life and a desperate moment in his life. And the way Russell acted in that scene made you feel like you weren't on a location and that you weren't having lights and movie cameras. And, you know, I just felt like I was in the boxing commission's office there. And I felt, you know, wow, there's a man who's so desperate to feed his kids. How are you? I'm doing great. And you? Yeah, yeah, good, good. I actually taught a masterclass with the AC yesterday. Awesome. I was exhausted at the end of the night. How long was it? It was actually harder than being on a shoot day. It was like, you know, from nine to five. That is long. Teaching is an art itself. Yeah, I have a renewed respect now for all my teachers throughout the years. Yeah, no, that's good. That's awesome. So, you know, just to passing on all the knowledge and towards the next generation is amazing. Yeah, yeah. It's nice to inspire the next generation. I'm also on the industry council at an inner city high school in downtown Los Angeles called Moore Boyle. George Clooney and Grant Hesloff helped set up a film department in a high school, an inner city high school, to try to introduce kids into the film industry. Because, you know, it's so hard to get exposure to it. And so it's nice. It's me and a lot of other, you know, on the ground professionals getting involved in school and trying to inspire these kids and make introductions to them and for them. And it's fun. It's fun sort of seeing, you know, kids going, oh, wow, I actually, you know, I have this dream about that, but I can actually obtain it. And that's pretty amazing that you could do that. And, you know, it's also kind of interesting with them is that I, you know, I relate to them and they relate to me because I came from an immigrant background. My parents immigrated to the United States. My first language was an Italian dialect. I grew up in an immigrant community. And here I am. You know, I had learning disabilities in school, always had a little difficulty and all that. And here I am there in front of them talking about, you know, my journey and how I followed a dream. And it's possible. So it's kind of nice to see the kids light up like that and realize, oh, wow, I could do this with my life. Yeah, it certainly helps. And, you know, it's amazing to see. Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of your childhood, but just hearing from you, you know, you just mentioned to come to where you are. I mean, for me, all the work that you have done is as incredible as it is. But I think one thing that really resonated with me, which was really recent and I emailed you about it, was the video for Sony Burano that you shot with Ben Affleck in the car. I don't know. What was it about it that it just kind of hit me so much? I have no idea why, but it was just so interesting because maybe because you were in front of the camera and it was like a BTS. I don't know. But it was just the fact that you're sitting in the car driving around and like, oh, OK, you know, this is really cool. And I know your background. I know your films. But it just hit me at a different level. Which brings me to what we're going to talk about today, Cinderella Man. I saw it when it came out. Didn't understand much of it as I understood it now. And being a family man, being a father, being a husband, and all those little struggles that you go through, man, did it hit home. What an incredible piece of film. And just done so well from lighting to performances to editing. And Russell Crowe looked like the skinniest I've ever seen him. And, you know, thank you. I just literally just finished watching it. It's also an interesting topic, too, because I really relate to it. Coming from an immigrant family and a struggle to sort of make a better life and how things were tight growing up and how tight knit our family was and how important family is and how hard my parents worked to instill family values and keep the family together. So Cinderella Man resonates to me in many different ways. You know, I've heard stories of my family that, you know, my parents were in Italy during World War II. In a small town in southern Italy, they had no food. And how they got by and how they struggled and there was no money. And, you know, they sort of worked to sort of keep themselves alive and got themselves to America and changed their lives. And Cinderella Man sort of really relates to me in that way as well. Because, you know, it's Jim Braddock's struggle to keep his family and to, you know, come out of poverty and depression at the time. So it's kind of a little parallel there. Yeah, no. So that's, you know, that's another reason why the film resonates so much for me and is one of my, you know, I've said this I think the last time is that Cinderella Man and Frost Nixon are my two favorite films. Because there's such a personal part of yourself that's really in them or relates to them. And, you know, Cinderella Man is very special in that way. We're about to do a remix, a new color remix of it. Oh. Yeah. So a lot of the studios are taking old films and older films and they're sort of updating them. I had done that for Changing Lanes. We did a 6K transfer. So, you know, we're about to do that with Cinderella Man as well for Universal. That's amazing. Is that supposed to come out later this year or you don't know yet? I don't know if they're going to re-release it. They won't re-release it in the theaters, I don't think. But I think, you know, it might be a big push on streamers. I'm not sure. I have to actually ask Ron that question. It is. It is 20 years. It's 20 years. I can't believe it's 20 years. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That is kind of crazy because I remember watching it in theaters. I remember watching it in theaters. You know, we shot that in Toronto in your hometown. Yeah. And I saw it. So I don't know how much you explored Toronto at the time where the Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens was, which is College and Yonge. If you go up north on Yonge, just before Yonge and Bloor, there used to be a movie theater there called Uptown. It was probably the biggest movie theater in Canada. It had like three screens, two in the basement and one in the office. Probably had like 2,000, 2,500 people. Like it was huge. And I remember watching it there. Obviously, all of that stuff has completely been changed now in the last 20 years. Yeah, of course. But was it, aside from Maple Leaf Gardens, what else? I felt a lot of like residential area and stuff. It felt to me it was Toronto area. But you tell me, I mean, was it more than that? Just the Maple Leaf Gardens or was it more, or was it just that? No, it was the Maple Leaf Gardens. The basement apartment was a set. Paul Giamatti's apartment was a set. And the relief office was a set. So if you think about it, there's basically four sets in the film. It's the three that I just mentioned and the Maple Leaf Centre for Madison Square Garden and the other boxing venues. We shot the street where he kind of comes out of in the morning to go to the docks and he comes out of the sort of yard and somebody's sort of sleeping in a car and he walks down the street. I think that was Queen Street South. Okay. So we sort of took over two blocks and Wynne Thomas, amazing art production designer, designed New York, I mean, New Jersey, Bergen, 1930s, on the streets there. And the butcher shop, they returned the salami and that's a real location. The docks are a location. We did go to Hamilton, I think, for the shipping and unloading of the ship, working on the docks, but the main gate area of the docks was that location. The boxing commission office was a location. Oh, the boxing commissioner's office was a set. I think that was a set, yes. Okay. But we really incorporated a lot. The back of their apartment outside the courtyard area, that was, I don't know if that was off of Queen Street South. Again, I can't quite remember. It was 20 years ago. Yeah, Queen Street is probably the right place because even now, certain parts of Queen Street still have that old feel, you know, from the 80s or 70s or even 60s. But you can even make those, you know, you can make a street from the 70s and 60s to make it look like 1930s because there was not that much construction and stuff between that time period. But yeah, it makes sense. And I think one of the streets that I recognize, I thought it was like a Hyde Park area. I'm not sure if you went there, which is near Queen Street, like the residential area where they're standing outside of a house when things are a little bit better. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. So that I recognize. It was Hyde Park. Right, right, right. It was Hyde Park. Now you remember. It reminded me, yeah. One of the things I loved about, obviously, you know, as I said, about the story and everything was the, in terms of cinematography, was the lighting. You know, there was a lot of, like, shadows and dark tones and, like, you know, less minimal lighting depending on, obviously, the scene and everything. How did you, what was the conversation that you and Ron had in terms of making sure to get the right look for the characters in the story in this film? It was based on realism. You know, how did it feel back then? And how can we portray that without making it, you know, too dark? And, you know, we did a lot of research in regards to the type of lighting that people lit their homes with and or not. The boxing matches, what, a few of the boxing matches, I used lights from the 1930s, these two-case lights. Oh, yeah. We found, my gaffer, Jay Fortune, who was out in New York, we found these lights and we used them. It was really, you know, it was really important to try to keep that historical value and bring it to film and use some of the technology that was used then. The interior of that apartment, I lit it mostly with practicals and some very little lighting, and they used these sort of batten strips. So we sort of took a piece of wood and we put sockets on them. And then mushroom light bulbs that were actually touching each other, so it kind of created like a soft light and it sort of hid them in places. When they lost electricity and they just had them lit by the candlelight, they just used one of those little strips that's like accentuated. And Ron's like, sounds too dark. Is it too dark? You know, because you have video taps attached to film cameras. It's not like digital cameras where you can actually see what the image is. So a director really has to rely on a cinematographer to really understand the chemistry. You know, can you hold on one second? I got to close this door. Yeah, yeah, no problem. I realized my office door was open and somebody walked in to see my wife. So, you know, directors really have to rely on the cinematographer's understanding of the chemistry of film. And when you say something's dark, you better be really sure that there's an exposure there and that it's not too dark. And, you know, that came with experience and testing at the time. So it was fun. It was very fun to sort of, you know, push those boundaries and make it really feel a little bit more Depression-era without over-stylizing it. You know, I love the Peaky Blinders series. Have you seen it? I've seen five, six episodes, yeah. So beautifully lit. Yeah. You know, and it is from the Depression-era time, even before that, actually, 1920s, Birmingham, England. And, you know, the lighting is a little bit more up from that, even though there wasn't that much lighting back then. You know, faces are really lit nice. The lighting is just beautiful, stunning. You know, I commend the cinematographers on Peaky. I think this is brilliant. Cinderella Man has much more of a grit to it. And it was intentional not to get too stylized with it because subconsciously we wanted the audience to really feel that weight of the Depression, the weight of being hungry, the weight of not having money, the weight of surviving, you know, and sort of making it a little bit more down and dingy in that sense. I think subconsciously helped to take the audience on that journey. Yeah. I think for me, there's a scene with Paul Giamatti when he comes and offers Jim, Russell Crowe's character, the $150. And you know how he says, Jim says, Russell Crowe says that for $150 they'll even fight your grandma, right? And then they have this little laughter. And then all of a sudden you see Russell's character just literally his facial expression changes from laugh to tears and he gives them a hug. That I think speaks a lot of volume to audiences. It did to me because, you know, sometimes we all have been through certain aspects in our life with things that are challenging. It's just part of life. And to be able to get that conveyed through cinema and even the coverage of that, you know, the blocking and all that was just, yeah, it was really, really cool. And I do think if Cinderella Man gets re-released in theaters, I think there's an audience for it considering what's going on in the United States and the world right now with people really living a tough life, you know, with money and everything. I agree with you. I hope Universal looks at it that way. Never know. I'm going to have a conversation with Ron about it and see if there's any plans for a re-release. It's a good push. You know, you talk about Russell and he's an incredible actor. He puts so much into that character, to Jim Braddock. It is extremely difficult to train and to keep a boxing schedule and to act as well. He was training every day like a professional boxer. You know, we had Angelo Dundee, Muhammad Ali's trainer, as a technical advisor. Dundee, Angelo, was also in the movie. You see him in Jim's corner all the time, which is, I mean, like it's sort of amazing to have that boxing history. And Renee Zellweger, you know, all the characters, all the actors, really, really dug extremely deep to bring out the real life story. And that makes the photography even look better to me. You know? It's a whole collaborative environment in that way. Every aspect of it, really, from the acting to the directing to the production design to the lighting, just really, it was so harmonious and brought the whole film together and I think really made the audience feel that journey. It most certainly did. And, again, you know, not to take away from Ron's work or Russell's work or your work or the editing work or whatever, but at the crux of it, I think there's certain scenes that just connect to audiences, right? Like where he makes a promise with his son, like, you know, you better not steal and I promise to keep my mind at a bargain. You know, when he walks out on his wife because she gave the kids away because they couldn't survive in the cold. Like all those little things, they're just very small scenes, but they're so powerful scenes. And then once you have that scene, then they have to be executed by the performances which are directed by the director and then it's shot by you and edited by someone else and so on and so forth. And obviously, you know, the hundreds of 500, 400 crew members, whatever you guys had. So it says a lot. And, you know, certain films, you can tell in the span of first few minutes, five minutes, that are you going to be hooked on to it? Yeah. With this, I did. Like I'm watching, I don't know if there's a Netflix series called The Perfect Couple just came out. Yeah, I saw it. Yeah. You know, my wife is really hooked on to it and I'm okay. She's like, why are you not hooked on? Like, I don't know. I don't really relate to these people's problems. Like I'm not, it's not really me. Like I don't get it. Like I understand it's entertainment and everything, but I will not remember it 20 years from now. I will remember Cinderella Man now because I, you know, watching it now. So it's just about those timeless things and how they're executed. And I love Cinderella Man. I'm so glad that I saw it this morning because I wanted to have it fresh in my mind while I was talking to you. But yeah, just an incredible film. Certainly up on my list now. Like, you know, it probably wasn't before, but now it is. Oh, thank you. That makes me very happy. You know, it was not only the lighting, but it's also the camera work. And that I really wanted the audience to feel what Jim Braddock was feeling. And Russell, I mean, Ron and I had a lot of conversations about it beforehand. And even before we started prep on the movie here in Los Angeles, I was like, look, I'm getting in the ring with the boxers. And Ron's like, how are you going to do that and not get hit or hurt the actors? And the actors are going to get hurt because the camera's going to be there. And I said, well, let's do a test. And we went to a boxing gym in the valley. We organized a test. Production organizers test. And we had a choreographer, a boxing choreographer, a stunt choreographer. And we just set up a little scenario between the two boxers. And I got in the ring with a small video camera. And I showed Ron how I can move around. You know, I understood boxing. And especially because you're making a movie, it's not like you're in a boxing ring with real boxers because you're moving in different, when you're choreographing it, you're moving in certain directions. It's like a dance. Of course. You know two steps, you're on this side. Four steps, you're on this side. You're going to turn around here. So I really learned and understood what the boxing matches weren't. And we decided where and how we were going to place that camera. And I got in the ring all the time with an ARRI 35 with Cooke lenses and film camera. And I was in with the boxers. Not once did any of the boxers hit us or did we hit the boxer or have any accidents. That's amazing. It was really wonderful that way. And I'm so glad you brought that up because that was something I was going to talk about later on. But the whole choreography, it's like a dance sequence. And I know no matter how many times you prepare for a scene or a bunch of shots like that because even if you prepare like you're going to move this way and that way, there's always those natural instincts that come over and sometimes you go off script in terms of movement. But to be able to synchronize that as a camera operator, cameraman, cinematographer with that move, it's not an easy thing to do in making sure that you're trying to capture the emotion but also making sure that you don't get hit or the camera equipment doesn't get hit or they don't get hurt. So, yeah, and that really immerses you in. I mean, Cinderella Man is kind of like how Rocky was but in a different way. Yeah. And you really brought that in, like the whole ring sequence. Imagine just shooting it outside of the ring. Nobody would care. Well, yes, because you feel like you're watching a boxing match on television, you know, and that was what was so important is to really bring you into the ring and have you feel what the boxers are feeling. And there were certain times that Jim Braddock was having different emotional feelings within the fight, and I used different camera techniques or different cameras and lenses to sort of help portray that. And by bringing the camera in the ring and using those different cameras, it's really, you know, there. There's one moment where I even, I slightly take the lens off the camera mount and push it back in, and the editor just uses that last moment of it coming in and kind of makes the frame sort of jiggle a little, and, you know, you realize that Jim Braddock's head's a little rattled at that moment because he'd gotten hit. So, you know, visually we helped to tell what happened to the character with a little sort of, you know, Ron's like, what are you doing? You're taking the lens off the camera? What? How's it going to look? I'm like, I think it's going to be good. Let's try it, Ron. Let's see how it goes, you know? And he's like, oh, here we go. I like that. That's great. Let's do that again. I love when Ron gets really excited. It's, you know, it's a great collaborative relationship, and when he gets excited, you know, oh, okay, I just did something really good, and I feel good about it, and it made him feel good about it, you know, and then you see it on the big screen, and you're like, wow, that's great. That worked out fine. Yeah, I can totally imagine that. Can you remember a scene, I mean, you mentioned earlier that, you know, it's like your story, immigrant story and all that. Do you remember a scene when you were filming it, you know, obviously you are trying to make sure everything is in focus, the frame is right, everything is in sync, but something that really hit you emotionally that you related to in some capacity, and it, you know, almost took you out of that zone? There was one moment when Jim Braddock one morning is going to the docks, and we did a steadicam shot, and I'll never forget, we shot off a 65mm, and we're really close to him walking down the street, and the emotion in his eyes started to weigh on me, and then that kind of buttoned, it didn't button at that time, the scene, but just the emotion did with, sorry about the phone. Okay. With the scene in the boxing office where he goes and asks for money, I actually cried while we were filming that scene. You really, really felt, you know, Jim Braddock, you know, just, you know, it's such, you know, a prideful man, it's such a depressing moment in his life, and a desperate moment in his life, and the way Russell was acted in that scene made you feel like you weren't on a location and that you weren't having lights and movie cameras, and, you know, I just felt like I was in that, the boxing commission's office there, and felt, you know, wow, there's a man who's so desperate to feed his kids, and, you know, being a father at the time, my kids were very young, and I just, you know, you kind of relate to it, and I started crying, and I cried as we were filming the scene. You know, talking about crying, I did not, after the premiere of Cinderella Man, I could not watch that film for like 10 years, and the first time I put that film on, I started to cry from the first frame all the way to the end, the first time, I mean, now I can kind of sit through and watch it, because of that whole emotional journey that in making that film and relating to that film, and, you know, when you start to watch the film, like if we sat down together and watched the film together, I could tell you everything that happened in that scene, what that scene, what that day was like, what was going on, I just, you know, when I watch the movie, I remember like it was yesterday that we were filming that scene, and so it's really hard, it's really hard to watch, because it, the film is so special to me, that that weight on it just makes it so emotional. So, yeah, that was heavy, that was a very heavy scene, and when, you know, it's like with Frost Nixon, and Nixon, Frank Langella, making you think you're with Nixon, it's very special when you're physically there and you're being transported to, you know, when you're physically on set and you're being transported to some other place, even though it's an alternate reality that makes it feel like a reality with the real people. It doesn't happen, it doesn't happen often, it's kind of a very rare experience, I think. People, you know, you have, the cinematographer has, while you're working, you know, on a project. You know, many of my colleagues, very rarely has anybody ever mentioned having these kind of experiences. So when you do, you know, it's very special. And when you're hearing a cinematographer talk about it, you realize, you know, you can relate to them because you know how special it is, and, you know, seeing their joy and excitement as well, it's nice. No, I completely agree, and you know, it's sort of what you just said about being immersed into that moment. I've been in those places many times, but there's one thing that I always, I will probably never forget, is I was directing my second feature documentary, it was a narrative documentary, and we're following this protagonist named Ahmed, whose, the basic outline of the plot is that he collides with Afghanistan because the Taliban put him on hit list, and he leaves his pregnant wife and his kids behind without saying goodbye, and he ends up in Europe's first refugee camp. Like, that's the basic premise. And I was trying to talk to him about his, what is he feeling, and all that stuff. You know, we were doing some secret filming, but off the location we were secretly filming sometimes, I would go different places. And I was trying to get something, get him to be extremely vulnerable. Not in a sense that I'm looking for some entertainment, but just let him be who he is. And it wasn't working. And then one day, we went in the morning to the beach, just randomly, and I said, you know what, let me just bring my camera, we're not really planning to do anything, we're just going to go for a swim. And we didn't end up going on a swim, and he just turned around and he started talking to me, and I had to, you know, with my DP way to start the camera on. And he lost himself about feeling guilty of leaving his wife. And that moment, I did not know what to do. Do I keep this guy keep going, or do I, you know what I mean? It was just one of those things, it hits you, and that's a similar feeling. But what you did in that scene, you created this atmosphere of, you know, wider shots, and longer, you feel that there's everybody sitting around staring at this guy, like, who is this guy asking for money? And there's pride being destroyed. And he feels so lonely in that shot. And I felt it too. But again, if you had done close-ups, I probably don't think that would have worked. You just created that environment with those shots. You know, I'm not going to take full credit for that. I mean, that's Ron Howard. That's Ron really, you know, working his shot list out, and how he wants that scene to feel, and portray that feel. You know, I was just there as the first mate to help bring that ship along, with a few suggestions here and there, which was interesting. Well, it's a collaborative effort, but at the same time, I know from experience that sometimes a DP would come up with an idea, sometimes a director would come up with an idea, but you don't keep track of those things, because it's a collaborative effort. No, you don't. You know, another emotional scene is when he first goes to the relief office to get money. You know, which, from what we understand from his family, that was extremely, extremely difficult for him to do. And there was a whole story that happened afterwards that I'll tell you about in a second that is not in the film, nor was it filmed, but something that happened in reality. But to shoot that scene, I really drew on this painter named George Tooker. And George Tooker did, like, this cubist type of painting of depression, depressed people. And there's, like, one, like, utilitarian painting in the governmental office where there were glass windows with the holes in them and people through it. And I said to Ron, let's film this like how this painter portrayed the feelings of his characters that he's painted. And we sort of took that into the relief office. And if you look at a George Tooker painting and look at the relief office, you go, okay, that makes sense. I understand that now. Because we wanted to bring that weight in there too. And then we sort of changed it up when he brought the money back, when he repaid the relief office. And in reality, in reality, Jim Braddock went and got money from the relief office. Jim Braddock had a fight, won all that money, went back to the relief office and gave back the money to the penny that they gave him. On that day, there was the mayor's race happening during that time period. And on that day, it happened to be the challenger to the incumbent mayor at the relief office and sees Jim Braddock there. Does not know Jim Braddock was returning money to the relief office. And he went on this rant. And he was doing extremely well in the polls to beat the incumbent mayor. And he went on a rant about how here's this boxer who won all this money last night and is here taking money from the relief office. And how, yes. The relief office that night, because newspapers, they would have the daily news and evening news and morning newspaper. That night, they printed a rebuttal with the return receipt of Jim Braddock returning the money to the relief office. And that candidate wound up losing the mayoral race. Wow. I know, you go, wow. What's so amazing is that we do a film and we're painstakingly trying to be extremely accurate about somebody's life, down to the penny that he borrows and to the penny that he returns. And then later on, you happen to read something about it and you find out the whole backstory. And it's something like this. And it's like, wow. It's pretty amazing. That is one crazy story and that deserves a film on its own. I know, right? Isn't that unbelievable? Wow. You know, the other great thing is that Jim Braddock really helped to lift the spirits of all, not just him and his family, but his whole community. Bergen, New Jersey, he just kind of changed people's lives. Because people felt that they, too, could have a chance of changing their lives somehow. And it was just very inspiring at the time. And when you read about it, there's a lot of details about how it inspired so many people's lives. When does a boxer inspire a whole community's life and give them hope? Well, it's kind of what you... I'm not going to talk about it in detail because I want to save this up for another episode. The film Unstoppable, about Anthony Robles. That's sort of the way you kind of wrap that film out, which is what I really like and I don't want to give it away, is the same thing. How a community is affected by that. How the next set of people who would want to do something similar or something different but to be inspired. And that's a great messaging. Because it makes a difference. It only takes one. Someone like Steven Spielberg or someone like Ron Howard or someone like yourself. The percentage of people looking up to other people is probably different. But for one person, you could be the god of cinematographer or the god of directing. And it makes a huge impact. It makes a big difference. It does. It really does. And that's why I like being involved with that high school. Or Bell High School. To inspire young people. People hope and letting them know the ability that they could change their lives or follow a dream and make it a reality. I think not to get into politics, but we are sort of having a rough time here in the United States. And I think it's time that people really inspire other people and help people to better themselves and move on and be better citizens in society. And I think we do that in film on a whole different level. And it's just nice when somebody comes up to you and says, hey, I saw that movie and it made me feel like this or changed my life. We started the conversation how you really related to it. And inside, I'm smiling as you're telling me that. Because I was just like, wow, I touched you. You're 3,000 miles away and what our work has done has touched you. And it's great. It's a nice feeling. Well, it's not just that it touched me or many others. It touched me over time. It's been 20 years and it's still timeless. That's what's so great about it. And it will be relatable in about 100 years, too. Oh, great. I hope so. Because it's about people. And I find that nowadays there's a lot of movies that are coming out. Again, I understand you have to highlight politics and all that stuff. The stuff that I've done mainly has been about social and political stuff. But I think more movies like Unstoppable, Cinderella Man, Minority Report, stuff like that needs to be made more because we're so much polarized, not in the United States, only in Canada as well. It's just that everybody has these political views. Okay, that's amazing. But honestly, if you had two people who had so extreme opposing views and they didn't talk about those views and they talked about their family, you'll find so much in common and different. Those movies are missing and I need those movies to come out again because I think everybody's craving for it. I think they are. And once one film comes out and hopefully Unstoppable will be that movie, then if it does really well, then studios will start to think about, oh, let's bring more of that back to cinema. Cinema, it's interesting because it's like a rollercoaster. It's always up and down. There's incredible ups and then it shifts and it's down. You think about design. Design's like that, too. We had beautifully designed cars at some point and then from the 70s into the 80s they got really ugly. And then it started to change again. I'm not relating film to cars, but I'm just sort of using it as a metaphor. Fashion, fashion like that, too. Sometimes it's really incredible and then there's other times you're like, after you've gone through a phase, you're like, how the hell did people wear that? That's like that in cinema, too. It is about complicity in the sense that people become complacent. So when you make a new invention or a new film or a new fashion, you put your heart and soul into it. But after three, four, five, six years, it's like, okay, you know what? I don't feel that anymore. So then you're trying to find a new way. Then you're making a buck. Then when the buck starts going down, then you have to reinvent yourself. And I think that's the circle of life. Just to sort of wrap it up with Cinderella, we talked about challenging shots from an emotional standpoint. You talked about shooting in the boxing ring and we talked about lighting. Anything else that you can, one element of the entire production that you can remember where it was like, how are we going to do this? What was interesting, well, how are we going to do this? The boxing was a big challenge in that sense. But what happened was, when we were in prep, Russell had an injury. So we wound up having to basically shut most of the production down for seven weeks for him to rehab that injury before we started filming. This was all before we started filming. And we had the apartment set built already on our stage. And our offices happened to be, this studio we were filming in had offices above the stages. So Ron and I continued the prep during that seven weeks. We'd have storyboard meetings and figure out the boxing and stuff. And then when we had a little time, I used to go and sit on that set. And I was already dressed. It was so depressing in its way. And I kind of thought, wow, what is it going to feel like? How can I make the audience feel like what it's like to be here? So the more I thought about it, the more I came up with a rule, that that camera would never break the walls. It always had to be in the apartment. The lens can never go outside that wall. So that forced me to be on certain lenses. It forced me to have limited angles at times. And we designed the set for walls to move, the ceiling to come off, to do an overhead. And I realized, you know, that is going to take us out of the reality of it. So there was only the front door to go in and out of to come onto the stage. And it got to a point where the crews like Sal, we can't get equipment in and out fast enough for you, because there's no place on the set to stage equipment, on the set itself, on the stage there was. So I allowed them, there's a little closet in the back, and I allowed them to take the wall off the closet so they could use that as an entry and exit point onto the set. And I kept that lens inside that set for all the scenes. And if you really look at that set and break it down, knowing it consciously now, what I did subconsciously to the audience was I put them in there. And they feel emotionally like what it was like for Jim Braddock and his wife. And so that was, you know, it was very heavily on that role. It's like, I'm not taking the wall off. I'm not going to take the wall off. It was once or twice where I was like, can we get a wide shot back in? I'm like, that lens has to stay on the set. And I'll be like, this is the widest I can give you. And Ron's like, okay, great, no problem, get it. Yeah, that feel that I got of being in Jim's room with him happened because I could even figure out, like the way, you know, your team, I should say, you guys did that entire apartment was, the way you guys did the entire apartment was I knew where what was. I knew where the kid's bed was. I knew where the refrigerator was. I knew where the door was, you know. And you wanted to show, like you said, I think that was a great choice by you because to be able to not go on a wider because then you're giving them more space to live in and that's not going to hit the audience the same way as it's like, you know, medium to tight space as you did probably on 50 or 35. But yeah, that's amazing. That's really good to know. I think in there the only lenses we wound up using is 25, 27, 28? No, no, 27. There's no 28. I was using Cook S4, so it might have been, I don't know if I had the 35 at the time, 32 or 40, 50, 65, and maybe once I went on 100, but that was it. Just stayed in that sort of range there. Just a lot wider into the mid to the mid-size there. Great choice. I'm so glad you're talking in this much detail because people who are not even in the film business or just average movie goers, they need to understand that even selection of lens makes a huge difference in terms of what you're trying to convey for your characters. It's amazing. I loved his apartment scenes because, again, it goes back to the relatability thing because we all have homes, we all have kitchens, we all have beds that we sleep in and we eat in dining-wise and everything. Listen, we can go on and on. I love Cinderella Man. Even though I saw it today, I'm making sure that I sit down with my family this weekend and we watch it. Oh, thank you. Because kids need to understand too that life is not as simple as they think it is. It's a constant reminder for us too when we go a little bit off the side trying to be ungrateful about what we have that we're far better than millions if not billions of people. Yes, very true. Fantastic. Anything you want to add at the end before we wrap up? Other than, you know, it's just a very special movie to me and I feel that, like you do, I want to see more films like this. I hope we do. Amazing. I look forward to seeing how well Unstoppable does. It's going to be in the box office for two weeks in December and then it'll be on streaming on Amazon. The studio is really excited about it. A big push behind publicity for it. I keep getting emails every day, an interview here or there for it. I'm excited. I'm excited and hopefully it's going to change some people's lives. It's, again, not often that cinema does and when it does it's very special. I'm hoping it's going to have that effect. I think it will. TIF normally, ever since American Beauty was launched at TIF, it has become a setting ground for the Oscars. The film itself is very good too, not just because it premiered at TIF. I feel that it's going to make an impact, not just in terms of people's lives but also, obviously, awards and everything which obviously will make an impact on people's lives because it's going to get more publicity. It's a great story. I didn't know about the story. I was blown away by everybody's performances and the way you shot it, which, again, we can chat about on the next episode. I totally love that movie. Watching Cinderella Man and that, Unstoppable, in a span of a week by the same DP means special. They were both great movies. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I always love talking to you. Likewise. We'll be in touch then. Alright. Have a good day. You too. Take care.