EP 128 - Cinematographer Salvatore Totino on Frost/Nixon Magic

Frank Langella insisted on being called Mr. President. You couldn't call him Frank, you couldn't call him Mr. Langella, and he did not talk to anybody. I did not get to know Frank personally until after we wrapped. He's the nicest guy you've ever met, but he would walk on set, we'd all be on set waiting, he'd walk on set and he walked like Nixon, he looked like Nixon, he sounded like Nixon, and when he walked on set, he took the air out of the room, everybody just stopped talking. And when you're behind the camera, the hair on your neck would just stand up because you're like, I'm here with the President. I just rewatched Frost, Nixon, just like literally finished watching like 10 minutes ago, and I loved it even more now because when it came out, I think the political angle probably wasn't that something that I understood the way I probably understand it now. So relevant now, you got a point there. But itself, the film in a technical and a performance standpoint, it's just so beautifully done. You know, you don't even feel like it's basically two protagonists and it doesn't feel like anything that's dragging in any way. So truly a wonderful film and still holds to this day. Thank you. That's fantastic. Tell me, how did you get on board on this film? Was it because of the previous work with Ron Howard? Yes, yes. I had done, actually, I met Ron was going to do the Alamo, he was prepping the Alamo. And I interviewed for it and started to prep it. And then Ron, for some reasons, couldn't do the film and I backed out with him. And we sort of parted ways and then about eight months later, he's like, hey, I got this film called The Missing, are you interested in working on it? It's like, yeah, great. And I loved working on The Missing. It was great. It's just Ron's energy is just amazing to work with, as well as his experience. So from The Missing, we went on to do Cinderella Man, which is another one of my favorite films. And then Cinderella Man, we did Da Vinci Code. And then in between Da Vinci Code and Angels and Demons, we did Force Nixon and then went on to do Angels and Demons after. I've seen all of those films, except The Missing. I think The Missing, I remember the poster, it's Cate Blanchett, right? Yeah, Cate Blanchett and Tommy Lee Jones. What was hard about The Missing was that, you know, it was a dark story. And we kept coming up with ideas to push it into a dark, you know, area. And the studio's like, look, we need PG-13, we need a PG-13. So we kind of had to dial things back. And in the end, it wound up getting an R rating. And so it kind of, we didn't quite push it to where we could have pushed it. But you know, it was the politics at the time and the rating system and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And well, Frost Nixon was kind of like a docu-style, in a way, the way you guys did the interviews of the actual actors playing to be the characters and reflecting back on something. How did that sort of transpired? Well, you know, it's interesting you said that, because when we were prepping, you know, I had gotten the original interview tapes. And I started to look at it. I looked at it for about five minutes. I turned it off. I said, oh, my God, this is horrible. I can't, you know, we can't do this. And Ron's like, what are we going to do? How are we going to make this interesting? And I just looked at him. I was like, Ron, we made this movie already. He's like, what do you mean? I said, it's Cinderella Man. It's two opponents. They're training to fight, to box together. And I think that that's the approach that we need to take. We need to sort of bring that energy to the interviews as well. And, you know, I made a big push with Ron and the production designer. The interior house was a set that was built. And I was like, we need to bring the outside world in. It was the other thing, you know, it's like we need light sometimes. We need to be reminded of what's outside and how the world changes. And it's not just this closed-in, you know, stale interview to sort of bring it to a crescendo. So before the interviews and after the interviews, we would open the blinds. And the production designer made a really nice backyard of this patio. You know, he had a little bit of the front with vegetation and all that. And we tied that into a location of a house that we shot in the valley in Calabasas from Marlick Bay. And I think that sort of worked really well. You know, and I think, you know, doing those little techniques and those little kind of things just add other layers, you know, kind of brings a little depth and subconsciously brings the audience to, like, realize how we're not watching a film, but this is something that's real that's taking place at the time. Yeah, and one of the things that I started using in the films that I do is especially, you know, the idea of showing cameras in your film, especially if it's something to do of a nature of a story that demands that. When you show like the way you guys showed monitors and cameras and everything, it actually subconsciously registers something in the audience brain, whether it's this is of much importance, even if they know the story is important, right? It just does something. And I think it's such a cool tool to have. And I do it all the time. Obviously, the story demands it. If it's an event going on media circle, you want to show that it's an event that media is hovering around and makes it look even more grand and big. And it's another level of reality to it. You know, there's that one shot talking about those old TV cameras with the monitor, where you see the monitor and focus and Nixon and focus in the background. I did that by using a split diopter. I was going to ask you that. Yeah, a diopter is basically a magnet like a magnifier that you put in front of a lens to help you kind of get close focus. But a split diopter, you know, so diopters round split diopters cut perfectly optically down the center. So one half of it's clear and the other half is magnified. So I was able to pick the size diopter to get the president focus in the background, monitor and focus in the foreground. And you kind of hide the edge of the diopter along the camera. I mean, if you look really carefully, you could see it. And it's interesting because I have seen that used in other films in the past. There was one film in particular where, oh, it was the original Hoffa with Jack Nicholson and Danny DeVito. Right. And there's a scene in there where, you know, he's on stage behind the curtain. And I think Danny DeVito is and Hoffa's on stage and he had them both in focus. And I just remember seeing that going, you know, I got to remember that. There's one day I'm going to need to use that. And that was that was the time I used it. I always had back then when we were filming, I always had a big filter kit, a lot of different types of filters. And I always had not only diopters, but I had split diopters with me because you just never know in a moment where something might come up that you're like, oh, this is a great idea to use this tool right here. 100 percent. One thing that I really found interesting about the film, I mean, most of the film is the interview, right? Not all, but most of it. And how do you make that engaging and interesting from a visual standpoint? Of course, you have to have a great script, you know, great dialogue. You have to have great performances. But to keep the audience hooked visually, I thought I thought that was really well done because you don't feel for one second that, you know, this is getting too long. Was there a specific approach that you wanted to take in terms of the amount of different overheads, close ups, dollies behind them? And was that something that you were always sort of had that in mind that we need to get as much coverage as possible? Yes. You know, and like Cinderella Man, Ron and I sort of broke down each of the interviews like we did in Cinderella Man, where we broke down each fight and we approached each fight a little differently. And so that's what we did there with each of the interviews. We didn't continuously shoot them the same way to sort of help build that tension and bring it to a crescendo where the president finally admits guilt. And we did that with each and every one where I think maybe the first one, if I remember correctly, you know, it's been... God, how long has it been? 17 years. I gotta say, it's one of my favorite films I've shot. Why is that? Just about what I'm about to say. But, you know, like that, I think the first interview we shot, we sort of shot a little bit more mundane and a little more on the boring side to sort of start to bring that audience up. And I think it's, you know, it's one of my favorite films because we put so much thought into every little detail of every shot. You know, even in the beginning when the gurney's being reeled down the hospital floor, you know, we're looking at doing a shot of the gurney and it's like, wow, let's just do a shot of this wheel. And we rigged the camera down low and just that wheel sort of moving like that just added this little subconscious tension. It's like something's off here. You know, what's going on? It's like a little imbalanced. And it was like down to that little detail, down to that little wheel on the gurney. Every aspect of this film, we approached that way. You know, Ron wanted Frost, David Frost, I'm talking in character's name, Michael Sheen, David Frost. And a lot of it during the film, like what also made it special, Frank Langella insisted on being called Mr. President. You couldn't call him Frank, you couldn't call Mr. Langella. And he did not talk to anybody. I did not get to know Frank personally until after we wrapped. Nicest guy you've ever met. But he would walk on set. We'd all be on set waiting. He'd walk on set and he walked like Nixon. He looked like Nixon. He sounded like Nixon. And when he walked on set, he took the air out of the room. Everybody just stopped talking. And when you were behind the camera, the hair on your neck would just stand up because you're like, I'm here with the president. I'm not here with an actor playing the president. It felt that real. So getting back to David Frost, we wanted to do a shot of him driving up to the house and sort of bringing in the neighborhood and environment. And Ron's like, I want to see all the reporters outside the house as he comes up. And then the president's motorcade drives in. I was like, well, why don't we, let's try to do a one-er. And Ron does not like one-ers. And I understand why. Like, you know, I push it often and I think Scorsese gets away with it in an amazing way. And a few other people since then have done really well with it. But when you're in a one-er, you're sort of locked in time-wise in that scene. And if you don't have cutaways, it might affect the whole length of your film or how you time different scenes editorially. So Ron likes those options. So I really pushed hard. And then I was like, look, I got this idea for this shot. I could give you a cutaway here and here, but let's try it and see how it works. He's like, all right, I'll try it. And what we did was we had David Frost driving the car. I had Sam Rockwell in the back seat behind David, Oliver Platt and Matthew McFadyen on the curb around the corner, another camera operator and another focus puller without a camera waiting next to the actors. I stripped down an Arri LT. I just had a little monitor on it. We had the cable going out onto the roof with the battery pack on the roof. The door was tied open. I had a camera assistant in the back seat behind me and I was in the front seat with the camera body. I'm filming David. I'm looking, there's a guy on a bicycle. I'm looking out the window. We turn the corner. We see all the news media and everything. As we pull up to the curb, somebody takes the camera battery off. I slide and lean back. I slide the camera out. The other operator takes the camera, the focus puller in the back, hands a remote focus out to the focus puller on the curb. The camera operator takes it and gets up with Michael Sheen. As Michael Sheen comes out and you see Sam Rockwell there and then Matthew McFadyen and Oliver Platt come around the car. As they're about to cross, the president's motorcade goes past. They look at it. We go to the curb and we come in and just as the president's motorcade stops, the door opens. The president gets out. We're over David Frost's shoulder right at the hello, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We did wind up cutting to a cutaway of a high like Secret Service camera angle of all this. But, you know, so planning that was just it was really a lot of fun. And Ron was like, let's try it. Let's see how it works. Let me see how I can make it work editorially as long as I have some options. And, you know, he did cut away one time, but it was so much fun. And like just doing that kind of detail and the teamwork in that. It's not just me and my camera team and the grip department, but it's also the actors and working and communicating with the actors. And while an actor's free driving the car, the car's not being towed. You know, there's a stunt person on a bicycle. You know, there's a lot of variables taking place and the camera car and this whole thing that needs to happen at the curb and all that. I think maybe we did four or five takes. Almost every take was perfect. And it was it was so much fun. And so, you know, you say, why is it one of my favorite films? It's like not only is it a great film to watch and what it means to people and how it looks, but making that film was really sort of special and fun. It's one of those days you go to work where every day you go to work like I am so lucky and what I did. I'm so happy today. I'm happy, you know, what I do for a living. And it didn't matter about, you know, making money or anything. It's just like I'm having fun at work. And that is a great day at work when it happens. You know, we're always in a lot of hard situations, you know, different types of films you do. Like, you know, Any Given Sunday was my first movie. And it's like how we were going to make the football look different and, you know, how we're going to do that. And Oliver Stone and the whole sort of Miami party environment that was, you know, behind the camera, that chaos that ensued or, you know, doing Everest where, you know, I went to the Himalayas and we went up the mountains and we shot in the Dolomites and I got frost, not frost, but I got nerve damage in my toes and my fingertips. To this day, I'm still dealing with it. You know, it's like every film you do, there's always some sort of challenge to it and fun or, you know, difficult, difficulty to it. The Frost Nixon and Cinderella Man were probably the every day. I never thought, what am I doing? Where Frost Nixon, I mean, not Frost Nixon, where Everest a couple of times was like, I want to feel my toes again. Why am I here? You know, it's a big difference. You know, it's so interesting the way you just talked about all this. And one key thing that you said was, you know, it's not, obviously, everybody has to get paid, but it was not about that money. It was just about that being able to do this because it was fun. And it's almost like, you know, when you're a child, you do things for fun, not worrying about what the consequences will be or you're going to get paid for it or not. It's just something you enjoy going to the park. And that's what's so amazing about creating stories and what we do is just enjoying going to work. Yeah, it's going to have a lot of challenges. There's going to be tempers. There's going to be this and that. But in hindsight, you know, when you look at it, everything, when it comes together and you watch it on the screen, like, oh, my God, you know, you remember how we created this? Like what we went through to do that? Like it was so much fun or it was so much challenging. But that's awesome. I really appreciate your enthusiasm for sharing something that was 17, 18 years ago. It's really cool to hear that. Nice. You know, there's also like a shot in particular we shot on the balcony of the Beverly Hills Hotel. Are you talking about the ending? I can't remember exactly where it was in the scene, but it was there. Sweet. And the camera starts outside and goes inside. OK, yes, yes, yes. And it starts outside a location in Beverly Hills and it's inside on set. Really? On stage. Yeah. And, you know, we choreographed that and did a little sort of camera technique, a little just sort of wipe. No visual effects. I mean, there was a little visual effects in the background to clean up some old buildings and stuff, newer buildings that weren't there at the time, at the location. But, you know, there were things, you know, we thought about all that, all that detail. Ron's big thing when doing Forrest Nixon was the drunken phone call. And he insisted, he's like, I want this live. I want this live because it's going to add so much to it. So we had two sets. The interior, we actually shot. I'm sorry, I'm jumping all over the place because I'm so excited. No, no, it's lovely. It's lovely. I keep coming up, you know. We shot a lot, two days. We shot some scenes at Nixon's real house. Ah. Yes. Which is really, I forgot to bring this up, was really interesting. I'll get back to the drunken phone call. But what was really interesting about it was the owner that owned Nixon's house was an old time friend of Nixon. And he bought the house from Nixon. Beautiful, beautiful, right there, you know, overlooking the ocean. It's just stunning. And it was very reticent for any filmmakers because everybody portrayed Nixon in a not nice light, you know. Yeah. And he was open to hearing what we wanted to do. And Juan spoke to him and sent him the script. And he's like, I'll let you shoot here. So we got to shoot at Nixon's house, which is pretty incredible. So then we built the interior on stage. And we had two stages next to each other, where one stage had Nixon's interior. The other stage had the interior of the Beverly Hills Hotel Suite. Beverly Hills. Or David Frost. Not Beverly Hills Hotel, Beverly Hilton Hotel. There's a difference, yeah. So the Beverly Hilton. And we connected a live telephone line. The sound, Peter Devlin, incredible sound mixer, figured out how to mix the sound on both stages at the same time. And the phone actually rang. And I had two cameras. And I happened to be operating one camera on the Frank Langella set, the president's set. And I had operators on the other set. And this is film. So it's not like monitors and digital camera and stuff. So I had to, you know, jump back and forth, make sure all my exposures were right. I was happy with the look everywhere. Talk to my camera operators about those angles that, you know, I wanted to make sure they got and make sure they looked right. And then I worked with Frank Langella and Ron on one set. All that was happening, the phone call was live. Every single time that phone rang, the hair would just stand up on my neck. I was like, you know, and we were scheduled to film that all day long. And we were doing all the shots and everything. And Frank was just unbelievable. Then we finished midday. We finished by lunch, the whole scene. So we wound up pulling work up from following days, which allowed us to finish making that film two days early. We were scheduled for 40 days. We finished it in 38 days. I shot more film on Frost-Nixon in 38 days than I did in 86 days on Da Vinci Code. We shot a million, a thousand feet of film on Frost-Nixon. That is incredible. And it's so cool that Ron decided to do that scene with a call actually taking place. I didn't think about that, but it felt so damn real. When you see phone conversations in movies, you can tell that there's nobody on the other side. Even if you believe it, you can tell. It drives me crazy every time I do a movie. Especially in this day and age, when they're all on cell phones. I know the actor's not working today, but I bet you if you ask the other actor, hey, between two and three o'clock, would you mind just getting on the cell phone and just reading the lines with the other actor, because we're going to film him on the other side? It's like, oh, no, we can't ask him to do that, because then technically it's a work day for them. The only schedule is so many days, or whatever the politics are. At that point, it's like, let's drop that and let's bring the fun back into it. I think any time it's real, you feel it, just like you said. You said you could tell when nobody's on the other end. And it's not just even that stuff, the phone call, the scene that you're talking about, you getting out of the car, the camera operator, the focus puller and all that. Nowadays, you would have all those cranes with a car sitting on a truck or something, or those LED screens. It's great and everything, technology is awesome. But again, that fun, everything has become so strict. You have to do this this way, you have to do that way. Filmmaking is supposed to be about fun, creating stories, emotional stories or funny stories. But it's great to hear that, because I'm really excited talking to you about all this stuff, because it's making me light up as well. It's awesome. That's great. I think, you bring it up today, I think you could really tell the difference when you see LED screens for process work on screen. And there's a big push for it. And there's all this technology in there, constantly new companies coming out, bringing us cinematographers in, showing us their technology. And it's still not right. And I think it's about being disciplined, knowing what you want to do, planning ahead. It is difficult to shoot on a real location, but it adds a lot to it. But if you're disciplined and you have your game plan in place, you can be very efficient with it. We did four takes of that driving sequence, then we went on to continue shooting other scenes. You know, I mean, it's just, you know, that's the way Ron is. Ron's somebody, he's 10 years older than me. He's got the energy of somebody 20 years younger. And like, every day Ron comes to work, it's like his first day ever coming to work. He comes to work, he's so prepared. He's got a script, he's got his notes, he's got a shot list. He's got his little anxiety going, you know, we drive into work together. And you could just tell like, you know, they usually pick me up first. And he'll be waiting in the corner, no matter how early you get there. You say, we're going to pick you up at seven, and you drive up at 10 to seven, he's outside waiting. If I come 27, he'll be outside. And he's like, hey, did you get any sleep today? Well, yeah, I got up a little early. I was working on the shot list, and I changed this thing. And I, Ron, Ron, you just got on the call. Let's get a cup of coffee on the way to work. And it's just, it's so invigorating to work with a leader, a director, a very creative person that sort of brings that energy, that confidence, and their direction from the very first second of the day. It's just, again, you know, you feel very lucky to... Yeah. To... Sorry, go on. You feel lucky to work with them and happy. It's nice. You know, one of the things that you talked about technology and locations in my book, and that my book is not, it's just my book, right? I, if I'm watching something, or if I want to do something, if I want to make a film, or if I'm telling a story, three things are, which is something that studios I feel are forgetting nowadays, because they're trying to save money. The biggest thing with any film is story, right? How good the story is, the script. How good the characters are, number two, and the location. I think those three things are so pivotal, and now we're slowly shifting away from all that. And you can see that. That's one of the reasons, among many other reasons, because they're streaming, tickets are expensive, people are not getting into movies. I mean, movies like that used to come in the early 2000s, or 90s, or 80s. I don't remember, like, I was talking about this to John Seald, cinematographer of English Patient, and you know. John Seald, wow. Yeah, he's awesome. A lovely guy, too. But I was telling the same thing. It's like, I don't, if somebody asked me, what movies are you looking forward to this summer or winter, I probably will name two or three. Because there's, you know, that excitement thing is gone. Like, those good stories are not there anymore. At least for me. I don't know, maybe I'm just, you know, too old school. But those times were great. Frost, Nixon, Cinderella Man, you know, even Da Vinci Code, and The Insider, with Russell Crowe, and Michael Mann. And I mean, I can go on and on and on. Amazing stuff. I think you're right. Because what happens today is too much relying on the technology and not committing. You know, for, you're going to build an office set, and there's a city outside the window. And I did this on the movie Changing Lanes. Today, like, we'll put up a green screen out there. Like, why? Why don't we just get a trans light? And then you have no real vision, or you can have little visual effects by putting some blinking lights in a helicopter or something going by. Well, we don't know what we want to put out there. It's like, well, let's talk about and let's decide what to put out there. On Changing Lanes, we had 360 feet of what's called a door trans, which you have to front light it for day, and you backlight it for night. And then what the only visual effects they added on a door trans is basically a big transparency photograph for people that don't know. So it looks very real. And then we just added like a helicopter going by and at night, a couple of blinking city lights like that. But there's no big visual effects. It wasn't tens of thousands, $100,000 in the visual effects. Yeah. It's all done in camera, and we did tests. You know, I was very concerned with the front lighting of the door trans and all the spill and how we were going to deal with the spill light at the time and also making, giving it a little bit of softness. And my gaffer, Jay Fortune, and I came up with this plan to front light it. And in between the set, the lights and the door trans, we put a net, a white mesh net just to make the door trans a little soft. And we did tests, and we tested that. And then at night, we dropped the net so that the city felt a little crisper. It was a big undertaking from the company that made the trans light. And so, you know, it was great to be able to test it because there was a couple of panels that were a little bit more magenta. And they came in and they did these washes over it and clear it, you know, made it really nice and smooth. And you look at that film and you think you're the 30-story skyscraper in New York City. It's all done in camera. And today, there's, I think there's a lot of studio executives that haven't had this sort of on-the-ground experience, have not come up through some of the older times like that and don't quite understand what it's like or how to achieve that and get that kind of look. Or they're just too afraid to make a commitment or won't make a commitment to what it should be outside. And there's times, look, it doesn't work every time, but the majority of the time, it works, and it works really well. Yeah, that's so true. And by the way, Changing Lanes is one of my favorite movies. We will talk about that some other time. But I just want to point that out. It's a great film. Probably one of Ben Affleck's best, you know, as an actor. Going back to Frost-Nixon, I really liked the ending scene. And I was glad, you know, because when the president, Nixon, played by Frank, he admits to his wrongdoing, right? And he says that in my book, it's not wrong, but in everybody else's books, it's wrong. I'm aware of that. And you see the reaction on David Frost's face. Like, he felt pain for Nixon. Like, he felt for him. And then there was a really great scene in the end, the closure scene where they meet on the balcony of the hotel, or I think his house. Oh, his house. His house, right. And then he brings him the shoes, right? I think the coolest thing about that scene for me was he never opens the box. You never see the shoes. You guys did show them earlier in the film, like, you know, when he was trying to get him distracted. It's just a little thing. I don't know if I look into things too much. I just thought it was really cool that you guys didn't show the shoes, because it was not about the shoes. It was about them two just, you know, seeing each other off in a positive way. You're not looking into things. You're exactly correct. And that's the conversation that Ron had. That's what he wanted. And that's exactly how he wanted you to feel. And it's wonderful. Like, I could cry right now of happiness hearing you say something like that and knowing while we were making the film and the director wanted that portrayed, and you say that that's how you felt. It's like winning the championship match. It's just, it's just, you know, I wish I could feel like this on every film. It's just unbelievable. I'm glad to hear that. I love that, you know, because even that, like, what are those shoes? They're Italian. They're pretty effeminate. I mean, nowadays, everybody wears them, right? You know, it was also like, you know, Nixon taking a dig at him. Yeah. And it's the way, you know, and it's very much what's happening in the political environment today. Yeah. You know, and it's, I mean, it's kind of sad. Not much has changed if you think about it, but it's only gotten worse. However, you know, all this little details, little details, it's written in script. Everything was thought out. You know, the writer wrote the script, Peter Morgan. Every word is thought out, every motion, and he worked with Ron. There was a script, and then they kind of worked on it together. And, you know, as a filmmaker, you think about, you know, I wasn't in the room with Ron and the writer, but when you read the script and you see the film, you realize, like, what work they put into it. Like, they thought about those words and how they were going to come across visually and what they meant and how it would take the audience on a journey and where in that story that journey should be, you know, whether it was a peak or a valley or, you know, a desolate road or, you know, a busy highway at that moment. It was really thought through. And, you know, putting a film together like Frost-Nixon is not sort of done in a haphazardly way. A lot of work, a lot of forethought and effort really goes into it and communication and teamwork. That's what's really nice about working with Ron. He creates this environment, this collaborative environment. It's a team. And, you know, you could constantly throw ideas out at Ron, and some of them stick and some of them don't. And he'll just say, no, I don't like that idea. And this is why I'd rather do this. And, you know, you try to push back and he'll push back again, which is really, it's, again, another happy day at work. It's not just the work on set and filming, but it's also that communication and that collaborative with your general, so to speak, you know, with the creative leader. It's his film. You know, we're here to help him tell his journey. He's the captain of the ship and I'm the first mate. And, you know, there's a couple of times I think maybe this is, you know, I want to take it on this sort of scenic view, the boat, and I'll make that suggestion to the captain. And sometimes it works and sometimes he's got his own scenic point. And it's just wonderful. It's a wonderful collaboration. And it's, again, very happy to and very lucky to be in that situation. Yeah, Ron, I mean, Ron Howard's work, at least, you know, it goes back as early as with Tom Hanks and Splash. But for me, for me, the film that really started my journey, knowing who Ron Howard was, was Willow, you know, and then following so many other films, amazing films that he's done. And he's still at it. Right. And now his daughter is in films and it's incredible to see that. And you could tell, again, you and I have been saying this over and over again. You can tell when you watch a film, if people had fun making it, it shows clearly from performance to lighting, to editing, everything you can tell. And you can also tell if nobody has, you know, there's a movie called Red Planet. I'm sure you've heard the story. Now that I hear the story, Anthony Hoffman asked me to film the movie. You were part of that. I was not part of it. I was asked to film it, but I couldn't. I had a conflict. Because how they had like Tom Sizemore and Val Kilmer, they didn't like each other at all. And they shot them separately and, you know, different times and all that. And you could see, you could see there was something there that I learned about afterwards. So it's again, going back to that team effort and collaborative, it shows, it just clearly shows. Just kind of wrapping things up, in terms of you as a human being learning about Nixon or Frost-Nixon interview, how much were you aware of it? And if not, how much research or preparation you did? I was a kid when it happened. I remember the day Nixon resigned. My father took me to work with him and he brought the television from home to his shop so his customers could see, you know, the president resigning. I was nine years old, I think 10 years old at the time. No idea of politics. So I did not even know about the interviews between David Frost and Richard Nixon. So when I got the script, I read the script. I was like, wow, this is fascinating. And like I said earlier, you know, I started to watch the interviews and I was like, stop. I don't want this to, you know, my point of view. And then, you know, you went online, you started doing some research, started reading about it. As an adult, you know, I was 30, no, I was 44 years old at the time. So I kind of had to re-educate myself. I'm not re-educated, but just educate myself on sort of that political time because I was too young to be aware of it. Right. You know, I think what's interesting and what's happening in the world is that some of history gets being rewritten or forgotten about, and we keep making the same mistakes. And I think that it's so important that all of this be taught in school, people get educated so that we can grow as a civilization, as opposed to kind of stepping back in the same doo-doo that we keep stepping over. It's like you walk out of your house, you make a latch, you start walking down the street in New York and, boop, you step in dog poop. And the next day you come out and you do the same thing. And you like didn't learn or like see that there was dog poop there because you forgot. It was, you were told that it wasn't there. And, you know, that's. Yeah, it is. That's why we need to make films like this. I couldn't agree with you more. It's like George Clooney in Eyes of March. You know, it's a really amazing movie. One of the things that I really appreciated in this film, and part of it is probably because that's the kind of film when I make films, I try to tell, you know, there's always a protagonist and there's an antagonist or antagonist with an S at the end. It's important to show the antagonist in a humanistic way, no matter how crazy he or she or they are. And I always strive for that. You know, you have to have an objective standpoint no matter where your feelings lay. I really appreciated that in this, you know, with especially in the end, the phone call and then the the closure and everything, you know. Yeah, you can argue that he made a lot of mistakes intentionally, unintentionally, whatever that was. But at the end of the day, him petting the dog, you know, in the in the last scene. Just just human humanizes him. And I think that when you humanize even antagonists, you dislike them and like them at the same time, if that makes any sense. And I thought that was really cool. I really, really appreciated that. And it's not because I have any particular political views. It's just because you always want to understand the dark side of human beings that they are doing the other day. Yeah, you do. And there are people that love them. And you're like, how could they love them? Because you've always seen sort of what you understand as the dark side of somebody. But yeah, everybody's got a human side. And I think that's important that you do bring that out. And it was done really well in Forrest Nixon. It really was. Yeah, you know, it was I've never said this before, but it just feels like a perfect film as close to perfect as you can get. And there's only a few films in life that feel like that, you know, for me. No, it's up there for me, too. And one of the reasons is not because it's a political film, but because it's a story of two individuals. And that's what's so amazing about it. It has nothing to do with politics, even though it does. Yeah, it's two opponents getting ready to battle. It's right like that, you know, just, you know, you look at boxers. Is that vacuum? You hear that sound? No, I don't hear anything. Okay. My neighbor, he's constantly vacuuming. He's OCD and he vacuums every little detail of everything all the time, you know. Anyway, I can just I can hear it. Where was I? What was I saying? You were talking about two opponents. Oh, yeah, because if you look at and you, you know, see, there are boxing opponents, sports athletes that are opponents, and they're friends off court, out of the ring. You know, there's some humanity to them in that way. It's not just all, you know, blood and guts and evil, just destroying, you know, it's it's, you know, part of it's a job they do, you know, even though it's, you know, you're an athlete, it is it's your job, you know? Yeah, and they're happy doing it. And they they're happy when they're playing and beating their friends or losing to their friends and their friends afterwards. And, you know, it's it's kind of nice. And I think we need to remember that, too. There was a moment there where, you know, the gloves came off and there was a moment of friendship between Frost and Nixon at that end there. It's nice. And just to to to kind of close it off, it's it's in real world nowadays, whether it's in the celebratory world or political world or even like, you know, average individuals, that camaraderie, you know, like if you're having a competition with somebody, it's it's not there as much as it used to be. I mean, the only time I see it is in sports, like in tennis and football or, for example, I watch a lot of cricket, which, you know, you have teams that are going at each other, but off field, they're practicing in next to each other. They're chatting, they're giving gifts to each other, you know, and that's so important to have nowadays because you have a professional relationship and then you have a personal as George Costanza says is the world should not collide. So you got to keep them separate. But, you know, I think I think that competitive nature with athletes and it's more of a competitiveness with yourself. Yes. It's like, yeah, you're going to you're going to, you know, you have your opponent, but really you want to be a better version of yourself. It's like, you know, your adversary is more yourself than your opponent. You're playing on the field. 100 percent. Yeah. 100 percent. Even when you're going for a job interview or anything like it's always you trying to pull out your doubts and trying to make them into confidence and trying to push yourself and anything else. Right. Amazing. Awesome. So much, man. I appreciate your time. We got to talk about Cinderella Man at some point. I would love to do it. Just another, you know, moment of happiness in an amazing way where, you know, I drew on other inspirational aspects. A lot of that film was inspired by a painter named George Tucker. And it's time period. I would love to do that again. And other of your films, if you're up for it, I really, really enjoy talking to you and your storytelling. I've got a film coming out this fall. That William Goldenberg first screenwriter. No, he's an editor. Five time Academy Award nominee, one time winner. William Goldenberg. OK, what's the film called? It's called at the moment it's called Unstoppable. And it's about Anthony Robles, who is a one legged wrestler who won the college national championship in 2011. You know, it's a story of, you know, overcoming disability, overcoming adversity at home. And, you know, Anthony's incredible person. You meet him today and he's just so inspiring to be around. Holds a few Guinness Book of World Records. He was born without a leg and without part of a hip. And, you know, I was told he couldn't do things. And he just walks in the room and makes you feel like anything in life you want to do, you can do. So, yeah, so Billy was his first time directing. I'm just looking at the cast. So there's Jennifer Lopez, Don Cheadle, right? Yeah. Bobby Cannavale, Gerald Jerome. That's amazing. I'm excited to see that. And I love those kind of stories, too. So I'd love to chat about that, too. You got another film on the wrist to talk about. Yeah, it'll be out this fall. Is it on theaters or platforms? Well, I think it'll be out in the theaters. They're talking about for a couple of weeks and on Amazon as well. Awesome. We color timed it for a theatrical release as well as an HDR release. That's awesome. Is the trailer out yet? I haven't seen it. No, not yet. No. The trailer probably will hit sometime September. OK, so it's one of those visual effects to be done. And the film's done. It's finished into editing. Billy's on, too. He's back with his editing hat on. He's doing Paul Greengrass' current film. I love Paul Greengrass, too. Are you shooting anything coming up? Anything scheduled that you can talk about? No, just some commercials at the moment. I'm sort of looking for the right story. The work environment's a little slow at the moment because of this potential strike. They just want the contract to be completed and signed and delivered before they start pouring more money into productions. It seems like they have a tentative deal with the film technicians, IATSE. It's still negotiating with the teamsters, which is interesting. OK, well, I'm sure things will pick up. Even in the world that I am in, in documentaries and everything, it's just slow. Everywhere it's slow. The economy's kind of... But it'll pick up, I'm sure. I'm sure it'll pick up. Yeah, people need to see things. Yes, we need to make great stories. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Thank you. Have a good day. You, too. Bye-bye.