Russell Brand - the fallout

Facing years in jail, as yet unknown, sentencing on Monday, financial ruin and a convicted rapist. That is now the true story of Russell Brand after a career which I said he amassed millions. Fraser Knight, LBC's reporter, has followed the case at Southwark Crown Court, joins me in the studio. Fraser, morning, what have you got? Nick, good morning. From, in his words, a staggering level of fame and a marriage to pop star Katy Perry, to the back of a prison van and his first night in a cell. Russell Brand was found guilty yesterday of raping a young fan and sexually assaulting three other women. Between 2004 and 2009, jurors agreed that Russell Brand used his fame to prey on women. The 21-year-old he raped, he'd picked out of the crowd at one of his gigs in West London. And what began as consensual sex turned to rape. As she said no, she'd had enough, she told him that he'd treated her like an animal. But Brand, throughout this trial, claimed that the victims had made up their stories. Even in police interviews, he was trying to be the one who was in charge, reading a pre-prepared statement, something that's usually done by a solicitor. As I've repeatedly stated publicly and written about extensively, I led a very promiscuous life in the past, which I've spent years openly denouncing. I've never engaged in non-consensual sexual activity. Brand sexually assaulted a woman in 2004 within seconds of meeting her at a bar in Soho. He grabbed a member of staff at a radio studio and kissed her as he passed her in the corridor. And in 2009, he lay his head on the groin of a woman, demanding a massage. David Roberts from the Crown Prosecution Service told me Brand's celebrity status didn't stop them pursuing him. It doesn't make a difference whether You're a Hollywood actor or just anyone else on the street who's committed these offences. We prosecute them and investigate them the same way. Consent has to be freely given and can be withdrawn at any point. And that's been something which is very apparent through this case. Police are now investigating two further allegations of rape, including against a 16-year-old girl. And Nick, after the verdicts were read out yesterday, Brand's defence lawyer unleashed a wave of anger towards one of the journalists who helped bring his offending to light. Rosamund Irwin from the Sunday Times was calm as Ian Winter swore at her. Mark Williams-Thomas is the journalist who exposed Jimmy Savile. Now, two years ago, Russell Brand posted on social media, the world is never going to be the same after November 5th. He was referring to the US presidential election, but yesterday, Nick, another November 5th, was certainly a day where his world is never going to be the same. He'll be sentenced on Monday. Fraser Knight reporting for LBC. And so what happens now? Let's bring to the conversation Dr Emma Cunningham, who's Senior Lecturer in Criminology at the University of East London. And I think, Doctor, we probably need to pay some tribute to the work done by the Met here because some of these cases go back decades, so they've done some painstaking work. That's fair to say, isn't it, Doctor? Good morning. Absolutely. Morning, Nick. And I think we need to also pay tribute to those victim survivors who've stood there in the court in such a huge case, knowing that they would have been under incredible public scrutiny this whole time. And they've still come forward to challenge Brand and his offending. His application for bail was, I think, understandably rejected. He's in a jail somewhere in... Somewhere in London until he returns on Monday for sentencing. Doctor, how will the judge work out the sentencing? What do you sense we might be looking at? So I think he's already said, hasn't he, that Brand should expect a substantial custodial sentence. And what he'll be looking at is the sentencing guidelines for each of those offences. But obviously he'll also have to take into account the harm. And the impact of those criminal offences on those victim survivors, as well as any mitigation that might come forward in relation to Brand. What do the guidelines tell him? Can you work us through what they say for rape and for sexual assault? So, yeah, for sexual assault, it's a maximum of 10 years. And there are three offences that he's been found guilty of there. And for rape, it could be up to 19 years. Thank And so he will have to work out the harm that has been done, as well as the ongoing impact that those victim survivors have. How much does his continued denials influence the sentence the judge will hand down? you. Yeah, I think they just illustrate again the kind of ego and the entitled misogynistic man that he has been, this predator who's offended and used his power, used his fame. Lastly, I read in one of the newspapers one legal commentator suggesting it's a sentence that's going to be in its teens, i.e. 13, 14, 15 years or whatever. Where would you be on that, Doctor? I would agree with that and I think it has to send a message out not only about perpetrators like this but also about the culture that has enabled a perpetrator like this within the media yet again to undertake these criminal offences. Grateful as ever for your time. Thank you. Emma Cunningham, Doctor and Senior Lecturer in Criminology at the University of East London. Some of you will remember that he interviewed Ed Miliband. We're going back sometime to the 2015 general election. We'll play you a bit of that in just a moment. So Miliband cozied up to him. Andy Burnham's cozied up to him. A tweet some years ago, depressing to see media mission to discredit someone who stops playing their game and uses celebrity to help others. Keep going, Russell Brand. What don't the left get that they buy into all of this? I mentioned Ed Miliband. This is the 2015 general election campaign. Speaking with Russell Brand. I think people want, you know, kind of a sense that the country's running a different way, that it's run for them again. I think the fundamental problem with this country is that people think it's run for somebody else and that somebody else is probably somebody right at the top of society. They've got the access, the influence, the power, and it's not run for them. And that's what we've got to change. That is exactly it. That is exactly it. What we need to feel, normal people, is that there is the will in ...in politicians, that they're getting into politics not because of cronyism, not because of careerism, but because they want to represent ordinary people in the face of powerful elites. Now, I need to tell you, Mr Miliband has subsequently apologised for this. But even by then, even by then, he'd written that book about having sex in Radio 2's disabled toilets. His routine was talking about how he would have anyone whose age range was 16 to death. So, why are the left... Always ready to preach, but so dumb, so tin-eared. Miliband, this was five years after he boasted about having sex in the disabled toilet. What was the man who thought he'd be Prime Minister doing, cosying up to him? Jane, good morning. Oh yeah, good morning. I'm a bit nervous. Oh, please don't be nervous. Just having a chat. Tell me what you want to say. So I just wanted to talk about it from the children's point of view, really, because I wasn't a victim of... I'm talking from my mother, right? So there's no rape in that scenario, but there was lots of sex. And me and my sister were exposed to, because of her husband and blah, blah, blah. Growing up in that sort of environment, and I'm just thinking about Russell Brand's children. Sorry, did you mean you witnessed your mother having sex with another man? I'm not quite... Yes, yes. You actually had to watch her having sex with another man? Well, no, not watch, but it's just that we weren't considered... It didn't matter if we were there or not kind of thing, you know? Oh, good Lord. What would happen would happen. And... And this man wasn't your father? No. Right. OK. And I think growing up as a teenager, young adult, now I'm nearly 50, it's always given me intimacy issues that I regard sex as quite a dirty thing, not a pleasurable thing, so it sort of tarnishes. What sort of age were you when you witnessed this man with your mother? Probably anything between the ages like 13 and 17. And your sister was older or younger than you? Younger. And what did you used to say? When the two of you were just together, how did you react to that? Well, it sort of put a massive barrier between us because I couldn't really... We did discuss it, but I'd get angry because obviously being a teenager and a hothead. Yeah. And I don't know, it was sort of brushed under the carpet And we just didn't. If I'd discussed it, then it'd cause a big family row. So I just kept it quiet, and then you suppress it. Oh, terrible. Did you ever talk... Is Mum still with us, your mother? No. Did you ever have, as you became a grown woman, did you ever have a conversation and say, Mum, I mean, just what on earth? Why? Not really. I think as we got older, our relationship did come back together, and I think she was aware of... Um, what had happened, but I don't, I don't think she really appreciated it for, for what it was. I don't know. Did she stay with the bloke? No, not for, well, not, not after when I was about 17. That was, that was that. Yeah. And you, have you had a marriage or partnerships or whatever? Yes, I have. I've got a husband and I've got children. It's just, you know, I'm quite envious of people that sort of say about, you know. I don't want to be crude on there, but, you know, I just find it difficult. So people who have really active sex lives, you're not able to engage in the same level, is what you're saying? Exactly, yeah. And I'm envious of them because I've got this huge barrier. And I've had counselling and stuff for it, but I just can't get it out of my head. How awful. You poor woman. There's nothing I can say except to give you my sympathy, obviously, on a human level. I've got enormous sympathy on that. Jane, thank you for being really brave to talk about that. Lee Purvis is a journalist and broadcaster. When did you first meet Russell Brand, and what do you recall from that meeting? Good morning. Good morning. So I first met Russell Brand in 2005. He was hosting a television programme on a channel called E4 and I was a contributor on that programme at the time. I was working for a tabloid newspaper as a showbiz columnist and it was nervous. You know, I was nervous. The whole thing was uncomfortable. Staff around me who worked on the production didn't look particularly at ease. Everything from, you know, a green room. We talk about a green We're in a green room, don't we, when you go on? It's where the wine or the coffee or the biscuits are. Exactly, exactly that. However, there was an air of tension. And actually, I remember sitting quite close to Russell Brand and just feeling very, very frightened. Just uncomfortable, yeah. In what way uncomfortable, Lee? Just nervous. He was extremely clever. He appeared to be very unpredictable, which I'd heard about before going on the programme and participating. You know, working in tabloid circles as well, Well, there was an element of... Rumour, you know, a lot of the female journalists didn't particularly want to interview him on a one-on-one basis purely because we'd heard that, you know, we knew he could be unpredictable in terms of being one minute ramping up the flirting and the next cutting you down with, you know, some very clever. academic style language and he was a born performer and that was very evident within his acts and obviously the content we've just played you know his shows I went to absolutely shocking elements which quite frankly today we would not tolerate. What was it about those times that the noughties as I think they're called what was it about the noughties where this I have to say Lee and I mean I lived through it as well but this wasn't just permitted it was almost indulged wasn't it? Absolutely. And I was just about to say, actually, some of the content at that time in the Ladette era, when I was booming showbiz parties left, right and centre, you know, it was a Ladette culture. And that doesn't make any of this acceptable at all. However. If you look back at footage from some of those shows, for example, that Russell Brand did and the content, you know, it wasn't just the men sitting in the audience. This isn't about gender bashing here, by the way. You know, a lot of the women were applauding this and almost indulging, as you say. And it was like the more that people laughed, the more Russell gave. And it was like a vicious cycle. As a woman. Do you develop a sort of sixth sense around a bloke and you think, I don't quite know what it is, but he's either creepy or he's not the sort of guy I'd take home to mum? Absolutely. So I can tell you, in all honesty, working for a tabloid, I have met some very exuberant characters over the time. Okay. And I don't know if I've been lucky. I don't know if it is because I have a good instinct or I like to think I have. Sometimes that hasn't always been the case. But in this case, yes. And you know, nothing illegal, should I say, has ever happened However, I have got, you know, that Spidey tingle sensation going on a bit. Instincts kicking in perhaps and I have been very fortunate in my career so far to avoid anybody being inappropriate towards me or taking myself away from that situation. Did Russell Brand come on to you in any way shape or form Lee? No, I don't think he liked me, basically. So the times I did meet him and, you know, I'd go to his shows, I'd go up afterwards. And as soon as he'd see that I was a journalist, he didn't like it. And he went on air and named me for stories that I'd written with my colleagues about him, calling him, what was it, the Brandmeister, the big, big haired pixie leaping across the nightclub floor looking for his next. snog, you know, in those tabloid words. He actually really didn't like myself or my female colleagues and I feel now, looking back, it might have even been a bit of intimidation that he felt, ironically. Lastly, how did he do it? How did he hide in plain sight for so long, do you think, Lee? So what I will say to you is he, when I did see him out and about, he was never by himself, okay? He always had a number of people around him. Like a driver or security or something like that? Yeah, an entourage, essentially. And obviously, you know, when he went off to be a big Hollywood name in America, he had an even bigger entourage. Thank And, you know, that's not necessarily saying that those people around him knew exactly what was going on. Somebody close to him knew what was going on. He also had an incredibly strong publicity team, OK? you Threatening legal action was like a regular thing against journalists. very So I can only imagine that his closest friends, perhaps some of whom may have known what was going on, much. and obviously he himself knew what was going on. Lee, thanks for your time. Lee Purvis, journalist and broadcaster, taking us back to the noughties, as they're called. 2005 is when Lee first met. Russell Brand. Now, to the other aspect, his wife, his loyal wife, Laura, They have three children. I'm not going to name the children. They're 10 and under. One of them celebrating their 10th birthday two days ago and then seeing Daddy go off, certainly for jail. So how do you stand by your man? Dr. Marion Trent is a clinical psychologist and hosts the Psychology Actually podcast. And that's the question, doctor. How does someone stand by their man? Good morning. Hi, thanks for inviting me. Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think in answer to it, it's maybe trying to reconcile the person that she has known as her husband, as her lover, as her, you know, the father of her three children, as you say. I'm maybe trying to reconcile that with the stories she's heard in court, and it might well be that it feels almost like a different person. As she heard the verdict, and only she can answer this, I'm sure she believed in his denial of the story. How much will that crack now, hearing the jury's verdict and the judges' decisions? I think what happens with being found guilty, being convicted, is that that becomes a documented legal fact, doesn't it? We're now able to say Russell Brand has been convicted of rape and three sexual assaults. We're legally allowed to say that because that's true. And sort of knowing that legal truth can feel a bit wobbly. I would expect grief, disbelief, shock, and also trying to hold the fort for her children and the people around her. It's not going to be an easy time at all. I'm a mother of two children. I've got a 10-year-old myself and a 13-year-old. Really not easy. And trying to have these conversations with children, trying to help them feel safe. But trying to help them understand what's going to be happening. And, of course, they are likely to still want to maintain a relationship with their father. So she's always going to be in his life, no matter what she decides. And it's interesting, she was the only person to give evidence on his behalf. No one else, or as the prosecuting barrister said, no one else will touch you with a barge pole. She was the only one, Doctor. I mean, that's... Speaks to the volume of their relationship, perhaps. But also, as it's been alluded to in the press and by your previous guest, he's a charismatic man. He's incredibly intelligent. Thank you. We don't know what the nature of their relationship is. We hope it's always been consensual. We hope it's always been, you know, safe. I really hope that for her and for her children and her family. I don't know her. I can't speak for her. No. Lastly, on the subject of the children. How do you tell three children, ten and below, that dad is a rapist? I don't know that you necessarily use that word. Why do you say dad has gone away for X years? Yeah, well, you talk about prison, you talk about the concept of prison, and that sometimes people do things in earlier stages of their life that means that they still have to have consequences. And I'd probably do it like I would with, you know, talking about consequences. If you are, if you hit your brother. There are consequences for that, you know. We have to think about how we're going to cope with that. And I would try and do an age-appropriate understanding of consequences around what's happened to their daddy. All right, Doctor, I will leave it there. Thank you. Aaron Trent, clinical psychologist. You host the Psychology Actually podcast. If you've been a victim of sexual abuse such as this... Or maybe your dad was convicted of crimes such as this. What has the impact been on your life, particularly, I would imagine, if you're a woman and you've been a victim? Of course, men take calls. Of course, we shall. But what has the impact been, and does it ever go away? His wife, Laura, is a relatively young woman. The children, of course, are children, kids. What is the impact for the rest of your life? Jason's in Marylebone. The point you want to make, Jason, Thank you for hanging on the line. Good morning. Good morning. I mean, first of all, most importantly, I don't think there's anybody, There isn't anybody to blame for what Russell Brand's been convicted of other than Russell Brand. Yes. As in the rape charges. But what I will say is that he was continuously allowed to push boundaries Wherever he worked. And those boundaries that he was pushing were making a lot of people a lot of money within, I guess, within broadcasting. And that's why he's allowed to get away with it. And it's kind of sickening. That's the society that we live in, that you're allowed to do that because you're getting the figures, you're bringing in figures. And we haven't really learned anything from the Jimmy Savile days, have we really? So what do we need to learn now? We need to learn now that, you know something, it's just not acceptable to really talk about women as if they're an object. I don't believe half the stuff that was coming out of his mouth in his book and some of the things he was talking about within disabled toilets and stuff like that. I think so much of it was just because he knew that he was pushing the boundaries that people wanted to make him as popular as what he has been. What fuelled that lad culture back in the noughties? Us, really. Us, the viewers, we found it funny. We thought it was hilarious, didn't we, really, that people would talk to be as disgusting as he could be and get away with it, and we just thought it was hilarious. You look at all the sitcoms and some of the stuff that we used to watch in the 70s and the 80s with racism and the way they talk about women. It was obviously fuelled by us, the public. And yet, even at his worst, Benny Hill never went as far as Russell Brand, did he? No, of course, because he was slightly cleverer than that. But Russell Brand, he thinks he's far more intelligent than what he actually is. He's just quite an arrogant man, really. And now I think he's hiding behind religion, which I think, I just don't think he's going to win any fans for that. But trust me, when he was on that prison bus yesterday, on the way to prison, his whole life was flashing past him. He knows exactly what he's done. I think he does. I've been racking my brains. One of the few people in the industry... I don't think I've ever been in... I know I've never met him. I don't think I've ever actually seen him in the flesh. I don't think I've ever been at an awards ceremony. I've never, ever seen the bloke. But he did, as you say, Jason, there did seem to be an extraordinary streak of arrogance when he went into Southwark Crown Court each morning. Jason, thank you. Elizabeth is now 42, but at the age of nine, she witnessed her father get involved in an attempted murder for which he was subsequently jailed. Thank you so much for holding on the line, a conversation like of which I don't think I've ever had before in my life. How many years did your dad get? He only got four years, sir, four years. And do you mind me asking the circumstances? Was the person known to him? How did he try to murder him? If anything's distressing, just tell me and I'll stop. Yeah, so basically it was an affair and my dad, he basically lost the plot and he attacked my mum's new partner. Oh, so they had split? Well, they, well, it's all a bit of a grey area, really, but it, yeah, it's a crime of passion, the QC said back, I've got the newspaper articles I got on the other day from my auntie, and it was basically, the judge was totally for my dad back in 1993, which was probably quite wrong, really. But the trouble is, is that people don't realise, like it was all in the press and everything, they don't realise the psychological damage that this does to the children. Now, these women are victims of Russell Brand. However, these children are the collateral damage of their father's actions. Now, we all have choices in life and people make these choices and it's the path that goes down. But the children's brains are not developed. They are seeing trauma, even if they didn't see their dad doing it. They are going to feel that trauma for the rest of their lives. Well, they're going to see their mother distraught, aren't they? There's no way you can cover that up. Yeah, yeah, totally. And, you know, their life has changed now. They are going to become adults quicker than they should have done. And it's worse for them than it was for me. So the simple fact that it's not just, you know, a little community knew about us, but the whole bloody world's going to, sorry, excuse me, the whole world is going to know about it. And these kids need help. There was no help for us. There were five of us. None of us got help. Can you put into words what the impact was watching your father go to jail for trying to murder your mum's new boyfriend? I would say that I went from a child that felt like Christmas was amazing and being on my dad's shoulders was the most beautiful thing in the world to a child that just couldn't focus anymore, a child that ended up having to look at herself and think, what's it all about? And, you know, did I do something wrong? Oh, my goodness. You didn't really think... My dad, I love my dad. My dad's dead now. My dad ended up committing suicide. All right. He had a lot of mental health issues, but I never stopped loving him, even though he was a good person that did bad things. Oh, my goodness. How long ago did you lose Dad? Dad died about six weeks ago, and he died in prison. Oh. Goodness me. Do you mind my asking what he went to jail for this time? So I won't go into detail exactly, but he had mental health problems and he'd already lost all of his family. He lost his wife. He was a genius. He was an aircraft engineer and he was amazing, so clever. And he just basically ended up at the age of 70 in a cell in Wandsworth, an absolutely horrific prison. And he got no help, and I got the phone call. I hadn't seen him for 15 years. I got the phone call, and I always thought I would never feel the pain because I wasn't around my dad that much. And I went to see him in my 20s because I wanted to know why, and I was the only one of all the siblings, and I got backlash for it. So backlash from your siblings? Yeah. Yeah, right, okay. However, when I found out what my dad had done, because my auntie Kimmy had called me, My heart, it was... Horrific. The pain was unbelievable but he did have choices and so did my mum and they made them choices and we were children and I just want all the children out there to know that it's not their fault what happened. They are children. What's your relationship like with your mother Elizabeth? It's okay. All of us, I think it messed us all up. None of us really. We're not normal. We were never normal from that day. You know, we don't do normal family things, blitzed in and out throughout the years. Right. And have you been able to get a partner or a marriage or husband or wife or whatever it might be? So I was married for 18 years and we had two beautiful children and we get on really well now. Oh, OK, great. But we just didn't fit. We met when I was a teenager and we spent a lot of our youth together and now I'm with a beautiful man who is amazing and we have a blended family and it works. I'm so pleased. Oh, thank God for that. You needed a bit of a break, didn't you? You learn. You learn. What Russell Brand's children are going to learn is what's right and what's wrong. Now, all five of us children are amazing humans. We're all educated. We've done so well because we knew what was wrong at such an early age. We don't all turn into perpetrators because of what we've seen or what we've been around. We all have choices. Unless we have severe mental health like my dad, nobody helped my dad. I won't forget this call. Thank you so much for hanging on the line. Best wishes to you, to your bloke, to your blended family. Well, to everyone, of course, your siblings as well, although a bit strained with them, I understand. Elizabeth, thank you. My goodness, what a powerful call.