'Truth and justice': Russell Brand guilty of rape

Russell Brand. Exhibitionist. Conspiracy theorist. Left-wing firebrand. Right-wing firebrand. Born-again Christian. Rapist. The phrase being trotted out everywhere now is that he was hiding in plain sight. But was he really hiding? No. He was teasing the rest of the world with the truth. I'm just a sort of a bloke from Essex, from a single-parent family that's a pretty comprehensive show-off. Yeah. So that's not, you know, I suppose if there's anything being protected, it's that. Oh, and also I raped someone once. I'm sorry. In the end, it's the laughter that gets me. Other comedians joked about his, well, they called it promiscuity, which sounds almost respectable these days. But one of them, Katherine Ryan, called Russell Brand out to his face. And she carried on talking about somebody she couldn't then name. Here's an example. I spoke about my experience with someone whom I was not abused by, but I believe very strongly, open secret in our industry, as someone who... ...is predatory. And no one's ever cared. Everybody's always spoken about it. People know, or people allegedly feel that they know. And no one's ever cared. So I thought, well, if I talk about it now, I didn't say his name. I thought no one's going to care. As a culture, we have an unsavoury history of giving a free pass to so-called bad boys, laughing at their innuendos, enjoying the thrill of the not-quite-explicitly-said. A permissive culture for rape and sexual assault was rife in rock music, rife in television, rife in comedy. Russell Brand was brought down by dogged, well-trained, relentless journalists and the exceedingly brave women who took him to court. Well done them. But who or what made Russell Brand? Not in the end his chaotic parenting, not even by itself his narcissism. No, It was our culture, us, all of us who laughed along and looked away. We put him on a pedestal, and to our shame we tittered at his volcanic self-regard. Laughter he took as permission to do anything he wanted. Has the wider culture learned anything from this? I don't think so. Let's begin tonight with a roundup of what we have learned with LBC's reporter, Fraser Knight, who's been in court throughout the trial. Fraser. Well, Andrew, I keep coming back to something Russell Brand said on his way into court last week. Today is a day for truth and justice. This is what that looks like. He left the court building today in the back of a prison van and tonight is spending his first night in a cell after being found guilty. ...of raping a young fan at his home in 2009, she was just 21 years old at the time, and sexually assaulting three others between 2004 and 2009. Of course, as you say, he was very open about his promiscuity, he joked about rough sex, he had a mission to sleep with 5,000 women, but the golden question, as the judge put it during this trial, was all about consent. And what started as consensual sex with The judge has said that Russell Brand now faces a lengthy custodial sentence. He was standing in the dock today. Closed his eyes briefly as he heard he'd been found guilty of rape. And his wife, Laura, sitting in the public gallery, seemed to be hunched over as I think she realised what was going on. The fact that her husband would not be coming home tonight. He is due to be sentenced on Monday. And that lengthy rape sentence, I mean, there's a maximum of life that comes with rape. Likely to be, though, somewhere between four and 13 years. All right. Have we learned any more about allegations today? Yes. So police and prosecutors have said, you know, while speaking to me throughout this trial, you know, there is nobody above the law. It doesn't matter how famous you are, whether you're a Hollywood A-lister or someone on the streets, they will always go after you. And today, the Metropolitan Police has confirmed that there has been more information that's come forward during this trial. They are looking at allegations of two... further rapes, including one of them, a 16-year-old girl. Now, of course, the investigation is still ongoing into that, but there is a possibility of further charges coming for Russell Brand. And I gather there was a bit of a confrontation involving the defence lawyer for Russell Brand and Sunday Times journalist Rosamund Irwin, who is behind the investigation. Yeah, you know, throughout the trial, there's been a lot of concerning questions about the approach. of Russell Brand's defence lawyer, Ian Winter, KC. Some of his lines of questioning have been described as being outdated. There was a lot of what people would describe as victim-blaming in there, him questioning why didn't these women kick and scream, why didn't they report it to police at the time. And after the verdicts were delivered, the court had finished. Walking out of the courtroom, Ian Winter, KC, approached the Sunday Times journalist, Rosamund Irwin, who was behind the... 2023 investigation and he almost launched this anger at her saying I hope you're pleased with yourself to which she responded I'm pleased justice has been done. Ian Winters said back to her it wasn't you messed it up in much stronger language than that. Fraser, thank you very, very much for all of that. Now, Kate Smirthwaite is a comedian who called out Russell Brand years ago and said the allegations against him were nowhere near scratching the surface of the wider problems in the industry, and she joins me now in the studio. Kate, thanks very much indeed for coming in. Thanks for having me. First of all, you've said this was very widely known in the industry. When did you first realise what kind of character Russell Brand is, or when do you first remember? Conversations about. Oh, that's a great question. And the answer is I absolutely cannot tell you, Andrew, because I'm in about six or seven different WhatsApp groups for women in comedy in which we share stories about. Is this person a safe person to work with? Have you had a problem with this person? I had a bad experience. But was this just one awkward encounter? Oh, no. I also had a bad experience. And we advise each other about which shows are a good place to go and which ones aren't. And, yeah. Yeah, and so just to pick one individual name and say when did you first hear about that name, the answer is I absolutely cannot remember, but it certainly is a name that came up over and over and over again, and I know a large number of people who had had problems with him of varying degrees of severity. Can you think back to that moment when Catherine Ryan called him out to his face on live television? Because nothing seems to have followed from that. It's very weird. No, she said it to him, you know, you're a predator, you're a sexual predator. Lots of people heard it, lots of people were in the audience, and then, again, it all went quiet. Yeah, and I've done the same, actually. You know, I've been at events and on shows, and I've said about incidents that have happened, sometimes where I can't say who and sometimes where I can say who, and we've named people, and I've spoken to promoters and said, here's a list of people who I think are such a significant problem that you shouldn't be putting them on. But ultimately... Like, we don't live in a culture that takes these things very seriously. There are lots of individuals who will say, oh, we would take it seriously. And indeed, there are lots of people who do take it seriously. But even that is kind of asking too much, because if you're a guy who runs a comedy club, you don't have the facilities to run a courtroom, appoint 12 jurors and assess the evidence. You've kind of got to go on, well, some people said it was all right. You want the ticket money, you want the bums on seats. You imply very strongly there that Russell Brand is not the only one. How many prominent comedians do you think are behaving in a similar kind of way or have done? I mean, I was, you know, I spoke to the researchers for Dispatches when the program came out, and I know lots of other women in comedy who did as well. And I suspect between us, we named a couple of hundred people in comedy, not all high profile comedians, but promoters, low profile comedians, people who are connected to the industry, agents, bookers, photographers, and of course, lots and lots of other comedians at all levels. There were probably only a small number of others. Who were of a high level of fame. There are a couple of really big names that I think we're all waiting to see if that becomes a story. But there are also lots of people who aren't famous enough to justify a big, you know, dispatches program or an expose in the mainstream newspapers. And I think that's a real shame because, of course, their victims are going to have a much longer struggle to get any justice. I felt very afraid as we sat through the trial. The idea that we were waiting to see whether the amount of evidence that would justify a BBC documentary would be enough to get a conviction. And so I felt very relieved today to discover that, yes, it was. And do you think it makes a real difference to women working in the industry what happened today? To be perfectly honest with you, no. I think that, of course, there are places who will step up a little bit and will be a little bit more keen and careful to say, talk to us. We want to make sure that predators don't come to our venues. But there's the other side of the spectrum as well. I've heard comedians already defending him. They've been comedians defending Louis C.K. for a long time, and it galvanises that end of the opinion spectrum as well. And also, it's such a tiny drop in such a big and difficult ocean. Final question. Is there something specific about comedy? I mean, I mentioned that it was very rife in the world of rock music for a long time and in television we all know about Jimmy Savile and the rest of it. But is there something about the sort of narcissism and the egoism of male comics which makes it rife in that industry? I mean, speaking as a comedian myself, Does comedy attract narcissists? I mean, of course it does. You know, you get to stand on stage and everybody claps. We would expect there to be a particularly high level of problems in a sense. But we would also—it's difficult because you're working every night with a different group of people. You don't have the chance to check who they're all going to be in advance. There's no human resources you can turn to. I think— You're travelling late at night. There's a lot of drunk people around. There's a lot of alcohol often involved. There are reasons why it's high risk. But I also think you can work in an office with the Human Resources Department and if they don't care and don't do the right job, actually, then you can still be as at risk in any industry across the UK. Kate Smirthwaite, thank you very much indeed for coming in. Thanks for having me. Now, I mentioned earlier the important role that journalists had played in exposing Brand. Someone who knows and has wielded that power very well is Mark Williams-Thomas, an investigative journalist who exposed Jimmy Savile. Mark, thanks very much for coming on the show. When you hear about the abuse that the Sunday Times journalists have had in court today and you think of how long these investigations take, just talk us through the importance of big newspapers prepared to fund big investigations. Andrew, what is, of course, is vital. Had ITV not got back, got behind me when we exposed Savile, we were probably in a position where he wouldn't have been finally exposed. So it's really important. And as you know, journalism has shied away. particularly in recent years, because it's costly around investigative journalism. So what it means is that those people that should be taken on, and in fact, Channel 4 dispatches, you know, and the exec producer on dispatches, she's a very, very progressive person. And I think had it not have been her in position, we probably certainly wouldn't have had that brand documentary. And the Bradbrook documentary was the starting of it, really. As a result of that, I had a number of people contact me and say, look, this isn't just... isolated in terms of what's been shown on the program. This is a man that's now developed further. And in fact, he was using his status, certainly around his drug addiction, his kind of guru status in religion to kind of nestle new victims. And this is a man who was a predator. And I think there is a considerable more amount of victims out there. But it's incredibly difficult. You know, I've been very, very outspoken today in terms of Ian Wynne the KC, not only in terms of his outdated approach, but his arrogance. I mean, for a KC to go up to an investigative reporter afterwards and say that, it just undermines really his quality as a KC. You know, there's no professionalism there. But actually great on her. She gave a great response back. But I think what we have to say and what I'd be saying to... As program editors to broadcasters, be strong, be confident, because actually, if you put your confidence in the investigative reporters and they do it right, it makes a massive difference and it helps. And Mark, another aspect of this, I was listening to the Catherine Ryan clips from a few years back, the comedian, and she made the point that this is someone who we now know who it was. He was very, very heavily lawyered up. It was a terrifying thing to take him on. In terms of journalists, how aware are you of somebody like Russell Brand having a massive group of very, very well-paid, very funded and very aggressive lawyers at their shoulders? Well, that's why they get away with it. You know, that's why Savile got away with it so long. He challenged the police. The police did an interview, and he said, basically, you know, I'm very litigious, and I will take you on. And he did take on an awful lot of people. And then you get to other status people. I mean, I've been outspoken about a number of people. You know, for example, Mohammed Al-Fayed. I did a lot of work behind the scenes to try and get the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute him. They wouldn't. And then, of course, he dies. And now they subsequently say, you know, he was offending to a large scale. It's really difficult. to take these people on whilst they're still alive. Savile would never have been broadcast whilst he was still alive. So, you know, I take my hat off to the journalists involved in the Channel 4 Dispatches. I think they did a brilliant job. We need to be confident. We need to be strong. You need to have the skills to do it. I think that's another really important thing. And you have to be robust because these individuals will lawyer up. And obviously, we're not talking about it specifically, but we have a current case that's ongoing where, of course, they've gone to court to silence the journalist in terms of covering that. So we're in a position today where actually lawyers will challenge the journalists. And what we have to do as broadcasters, as journalists, is challenge that back.