Gretchen Whitmer says it's not 'paranoia' to fear Trump using homeland security in elections ｜ NPR

I think it's a very serious and scary moment in this country. I appreciate those who are raising their voices. I worry about the safety of people who are just out there trying to do the right thing and protest. What I think is an abuse of power is what it adds up to. We know that tariffs have increased costs on the average American consumer. They've cost Americans jobs. It's not a zero-sum game where I only win if you lose. Everyone can get ahead. And that's got to be our mindset. I think America is ready for a woman president. Just for whatever reason, we have not had a woman president yet. I think we will at some point in the near future. Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer has been talked of as a vice presidential candidate and presidential candidate. She's not currently running for anything, but came here to the Detroit Auto Show to talk about the effects of President Trump's tariffs. Afterward, we sat down to talk about the Trump administration, the state of the country, and the state of her party. Governor Whitmer, thanks for welcoming us here. Thank you. I'm glad you're here. It's amazing to be at this auto show, and I want to talk about cars, the auto industry, and tariffs in a moment. I want to begin with something else. As we're talking, as we're recording this, there have been a number of news developments relating to the Department of Justice, the U.S. Department of Justice. I've got a list here. U.S. officials said that immigration agents have what they called federal immunity as they conduct their duties in places like Minnesota. We learned of an investigation of the Federal Reserve. We learned of an investigation in which a journalist's house was raided and their devices were taken. And Senator Elissa Slotkin of Michigan said she is under investigation for something. What does that all add up to? I think an abuse of power. I think that's pretty clear. That's the through line there. And I think it's a very serious and scary moment in this country. I appreciate. Those who are raising their voices, I worry about the safety of people who are just out there trying to do the right thing and protest or do their jobs and cast their votes. But I think it's an abuse of power is what it adds up to. Has it gotten to the point where you would have difficulty working with or collaborating with this president, which is something you've tried to do? Well, listen, I have worked with people I don't agree with. My whole political career. This is not new. I work with people that I disagree with 99% of the things on. my oath is to the people of Michigan. And at the end of the day, that's my North Star. So if there's an opportunity for me to do something for the people of Michigan, I'm always going to take that opportunity. But it never means I'm going to not live my values and be the kind of leader that I think we deserve. We should just note we're at an auto show. That might have been somebody who disagrees with you peeling out in the car. There are test runs going on around us and everything else. Are you concerned about democracy itself? I am. I absolutely am. And that's one of the reasons of many that I think the most important thing that Democratic leaders can do right now is to lead with integrity, to fight back where we must, and to make sure that we're recruiting a great group of... Democratic leaders to put on the ballot in 2026 so that we can be ready for 2028 which I want to talk about. Can you deal with this president if he makes an agreement? Does he keep it? Well, you know what, I worked really hard to get a secure new fighter mission at Selfridge Air National Guard Base in Macomb County. It is about $850 million of economic activity to my state. It was very much an unsure thing if we could get that done. The president came here and announced it. But until those planes get here on the ground, I'm going to keep working at it, make sure that it happens. You said in a speech that we were just watching before this interview the tariffs, the president's tariffs, Have taken a terrible toll. Impressive alliteration. How much damage have they done really, though, to the auto industry? Well, you look at what's going on here. We've had nine months of... contraction when it comes to manufacturing in this country you know if the goal is to onshore jobs and to bring investment to the United States that's something i think we can all say we want but this capricious tariff policy that's ever changing has absolutely shifted costs onto people meant that businesses aren't making investments And has certainly made doing business in this country a lot harder, and that's what we're seeing. Why do you think it is that the United Auto Workers is not on the same page with you on that? They support the tariffs, have opposed the North American Free Trade Agreement and its successor agreement for a long time. You know, the United Auto Workers are a big, diverse group of people. And some of the leadership says that they like tariffs, but right now we are seeing a contraction of U.S. manufacturing. job losses and ultimately their rank and file members have got to be able to afford to take care of their families and know that they got a job to show up to. And that's very much at risk right now. So do you think you're going to persuade them to change their mind? I'm not working to persuade them to change their mind. I'm doing what I know to be the right thing to do for the Michigan economy, for the United States economy. And that means Fighting to make sure that as they go in to renegotiate the USMCA, they keep the parts that make sense, they improve on the parts that don't, but we can't scuttle it and we can't have a capricious set of rules depending on one person's mood from day to day. We've got to have a real strategy. Mary Barra, the head of General Motors, gave an interview to CBS the other day in which she acknowledged that the tariffs... had cost her company billions of dollars because of course cars are made constantly with parts going back and forth across the border to Canada and the border to Mexico. Cost them billions of dollars and yet she said the administration had worked with them to minimize the damage and that they had in fact been able to bring some production back to the United States. Does that imply that the tariffs are to some extent working as the president wanted them to, bringing jobs back? I'm not going to put words in Mary's Mary's mouth. She does a phenomenal job at General Motors, but she's got a hard job to do, and she's got to figure out how to work with this administration, which we're all trying to do. At the end of the day, though, we know that tariffs have increased costs on the average American consumer. They've cost Americans jobs. They've made America a less competitive country as a whole, and you can see what the toll is that it's been on manufacturing. Meanwhile, China continues to put their foot on the gas, and I think that's why It's such a concerning moment for us here in Michigan, you know, in particular, but for us as a nation. Oh, I want to ask about China, but why do you think it is that tariffs have not yet crashed the economy, as some people feared they would? Well, nine months of contraction in manufacturing is a big problem. That's a big, I think, indicator of what happens. We're the canary in the coal mine, if you will. When America catches a cold, Michigan gets the flu. We feel it harder and we feel it earlier, and I'm telling you. It's taken a toll. Why do you think it is that this industry that we're surrounded by is retreating on EVs, electric vehicles, which seemed to be the future a short time ago? Well, we had policies that supported the transition, and now we don't. These are companies that have to make decades-long investments. They were making them, and then all of a sudden a change in Washington, D.C. has forced them to re-evaluate. Meanwhile, China's moving ahead on EVs and batteries. They have upended the whole European market. They want to do that here in the United States. We can't let that happen. And so I don't care what kind of car you drive. I want it to be made here in Michigan. I want it to be made in the United States. We've got to compete. We've got to move forward on all of those fronts, not one or the other. You're right that the president has pushed back on subsidies, tax credits, and other supports for EVs. But it seems that even when Joe Biden was president, Ford could not make an F-150 EV pickup truck at a cost that people were willing to pay. It was too expensive for people, and even at that, they were losing money on the truck. Meanwhile, the Chinese can sell a car for a few thousand dollars, a decent electric car for a few thousand dollars. It sounds like something is fundamentally not working there beyond this or that federal policy. There are a lot of pieces that go into it, Steve. But one of them is that the Chinese government is underwriting all of those vehicles. You know, that's what they have done in Europe is the government funds. They can sell at a loss, they eat up the market, and then they will jack up prices. That's exactly what they want to do here as well. And so it is, we do not have a fair level playing ground. And that's why our international policies matter, but they've got to be smart. We can't penalize our allies, our partners like Canada and Mexico, and make it easier for the Chinese. They're already operating in an unlevel playing field, and they are out. to gut the American market. The U.S. has effectively kept Chinese cars out of this market. Do you think that should continue? Absolutely. I mean, they're already operating on an unlevel playing field. We've got to do a lot of things to make the United States more competitive and to move faster. That includes getting rid of these capricious tariffs. But there's a lot more work that we need to do here to shore up, not just this industry, but manufacturing generally. The President has said he wants foreign direct investment in the United States, more of it. Would you welcome Chinese investment in Michigan if you had that opportunity? I think it depends on what the company is and what the product is and whether or not we've got something that we can make in lieu of Chinese cooperation. Governor, I want people to know, if they don't, you're not currently running for anything. That's right. And that's going, is it going to stay the same, by the way? You know, right now, you know, as I enter this last 11 and a half months of governor, I know that the best thing I can do is stay focused on and show people that when Democratic governors lead. We make their lives better, and that's why my focus is going to stay on Michigan, but also I'm the vice chair of the Democratic Governors Association. We've got 36 races this year, 24 incumbent governors represent more than 60% of the nation. Your governor matters more than ever right now, and so those two things are going to take up all my focus through the end of this year. You're going to try to accelerate like that car, I would imagine. Since you're not running, you can give advice, and it's almost your job to give advice to people running in 26 and 28 perhaps as well. So I have some questions about the direction of the Democratic Party. What does your party need to change in order to win Michigan next time? You know, I won Michigan twice handily. I am proud and grateful for this opportunity, but I think it's because I stayed focused on the fundamentals, you know, the dinner table issues, helping people find an affordable place to live, a good paying job, a school that prepares their kids, and roads that don't tear up their vehicle. It's critical. This is how people keep money in their pockets. This is how Michiganders can get ahead. I don't think Michigan is unique in that. I think every person in this country wants and expects government to make their lives better. And so that's been our formula here in Michigan. I think that that can be replicated everywhere successfully. Have National Democrats done something that have pushed voters away? I don't think there's one thing here or there, but when you're not really in it with the people that you want to serve, seeing their lives every day, understanding what is possible in terms of, you know, giving retirees relief by not taxing their pensions, like, which is something that we did in my first term here. That's the stuff that really matters. And that's the stuff that That voters want and need to see from their elected officials. There are a lot of people who voted for Trump not because they love him, but because they wanted drastic change. Do you have anything to say, do Democrats have anything to say to people who want drastic change in the way the country has been run? I think drastic change might be an oversimplification. I think that people want leaders who understand them and care about them. You know, I've met a lot of Michiganders who voted both for me and Donald Trump twice. I don't understand everything that makes that voter tick, but when I talk to them, they tell me, I think you're the one that understands what I'm going through. You're the one that's talking about the issues that matter to me. So that's why I always say, focus on the fundamentals. A leader has got to know how to solve problems, get things done. And make sure that people's lives are better. We interviewed Pete Buttigieg as part of this series, and one of the things that he said was that Democrats made a mistake by defending the status quo too much. By defending institutions, which sounds like a good thing, but they're institutions that weren't fundamentally working for people. That a lot of federal agencies, for example, were not really delivering things that the public understood. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I mean, you've never heard someone say, hey, let me, I'm the status quo. I wouldn't vote for that. I think that, you know, people are frustrated. Their costs keep going up. It's harder and harder to get ahead. Their kids aren't finding jobs. I mean, this is the fundamentals for people, and we've got to make it. We've always got to be looking to improve, to get stronger, to get more competitive, to help more people get where they want to be headed. And I think that is something that's been a gap. But I was thinking about your story specifically because, if I'm not mistaken, both of your parents at one time or another were in government. Yes. They both served in opposite parties, if I'm not mistaken. And, of course, you spent a long time in government. How do you think it is that people have come to feel so disconnected from their government? Probably a lot of things that play into it, but as we're seeing right now, who your leaders are matter more than ever. Who your governor is plays an outsized role in whether or not you've got a stable statewide economy in which to make an investment or which you can get a degree or a skill set that gets you in a good paying job. And so, And so I do think that what we've seen in Michigan, we had the highest youth voter turnout in my re-election. In the country, people understood that what we were doing really mattered at the state level and so I do think that in a non-presidential year, this is a moment where we can connect what governors are doing, what people, what people's lives, how they're impacted by what happens at the state level. Democrats did really badly with men in 2024. And then in your State of the State speech in early 2025, about a year ago, you warned about a generation of men falling behind their fathers and their grandfathers. What were you saying? And is anything better now? Well, you know, I was addressing a need, right? When I said that, some people kind of pushed back and said, oh, are you abandoning your, your, you know? Plans to help women get ahead. I said, no, of course not. I'm recognizing that there's a unique vulnerability here, though. When we look at the efforts that we undertook to make college or skill sets more affordable, women were signing up two-to-one to men. When we announced opportunities that bring down the cost of a first home payment, women were signing up two-to-one for men. We were not reaching men. So did we design a bunch of programs for men alone? No. But we do more outreach to make sure that we are meeting men where they are so they understand what's available to them too. Because we want an opportunity for every person, not some, not this group, not that group, but so that every person has that chance to get ahead, to get the job they want, to get the home, an affordable home that we all need. There's a whole conversation about the demoralization of men, about men feeling left out, not seeing a way forward. There are different flavors. I mean, there's kind of a sociological approach to it. There's also a very intensely political and even radical version of that. Is society doing something to men? You know, I don't know all of the different pressures. I've been studying it. I'm listening to probably a lot of the same podcasts that you are to understand what can we do? How do we bridge this gap? It is real. And I think that's the first step. And the second is really reaching out and listening and making sure that every part of our society can take advantage of of opportunities that are available and we create ones where there Or maybe we need to. One of the arguments made, of course, is that Democrats have somehow tried to be too inclusive. Tilted the playing field the wrong way. Do you see anything to that claim? No, I don't think so. You know, when you say, let's save the rainforest, it doesn't mean you say, I hate all the other forests, right? It's recognizing a unique vulnerability. I think that's smart. I think that that's what we have to do when it comes to all of our policies. Democrats are a big tent. We want everyone to be successful. It's not picking and choosing. It's not a zero-sum game where I only win if you lose. Everyone can get ahead. And that's got to be our mindset. And that's why I'm a Democrat. Sometimes maybe our message is too obtuse for people. And we have to really have those interactions where people feel like, yeah, you matter too. What do you mean too obtuse for people? Well, we make everything so general that sometimes people can't see themselves in it. I think that that's a pitfall. What would you do about that? You know, my favorite thing to do, you know, I wrote a whole book about listening to people. You know, you're not learning if you're not listening. And people will tell you what they need. They will be very direct with you. You know, we saw an autoworker very direct the other day with the President of the United States. Oh, this is the person who yelled at the President about Jeffrey Epstein. I'm making a joke. Yeah, go on. I'm saying if you engage with people, they will tell you what they need. And that's why when I talk about fixing the damn roads, Steve, it's not just about a smoother drive. It's about the person who doesn't have to take money out of their savings or their rent or their child care budget to fix the... the rim on their their wheel you know this is about the personal economy and the ability to get ahead and I think that's what it what I mean when I say that every person's got a story every person matters and my job as governor is not just to make sure that all the people that voted for me for me can get ahead is to make sure that all the people in Michigan can. Why did you just draw that distinction right now, that you were only for your voters? What do you mean by that? Well, when you ask, are Democrats only talking to one group or another? I don't just talk to Democrats. You know, I think that when I took an oath of office, it's to serve the people of Michigan, not just the people who voted, not just the people who voted for me. Okay. My favorite thing is to have a conversation with someone who didn't. And learn from them. Does that make you different from the president? I think there are a lot of things that make me different from the president. I didn't. One of your fellow Democrats was on a stage not too long ago, Michelle Obama, and was asked about a woman as president. And she said, we're not ready. And then speaking to the audience, effectively to the American electorate, said, you are not ready. You are lying if you say that you are ready. Do you think she was right about that? Well, first, I love Michelle Obama, so the last thing I want to do is disagree with her. But, I think America is ready for a woman president. The question comes down to a choice between two people. And what we saw in this last election, while Kamala Harris didn't beat President Trump, We saw women get elected across the country. We saw, just recently, Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Sherrill got elected. We saw Alyssa Slotkin get elected to the U.S. Senate here in Michigan. We saw women win up and down the ballot in hard, important states to win. So I do think that there's an appetite. I just, for whatever reason, we have not had a woman president yet. I think we will at some point in the near future. Michelle Obama's evidence was the last election. I think if we were to spin out that thought, it would be that in her view, the other candidate was so obviously unfit for the office, and still he managed to win, that maybe voting for a woman was just too much for some people. You know, I think that there were a lot of things that came into play, and I don't know that it can be. It can be whittled down to one characteristic or another, or one event or another, or a timeline or not, or lack of a primary. I don't know. You don't think it was just that Kamala Harris was a woman? I don't think it was just gender, no. I've been thinking about the way that each president, in addition to their specific policies, ends up presenting a different vision of America and changing American politics. Obama. There was the famous book, Game Change, changed American politics. Trump clearly has changed American politics. What do you see that the next president would need to do? Where do you think politics are going next? What do you think will change next? I don't know. I think 2026 is going to give us a lot of insight. I saw what happened and worked closely with the Spaunburger campaign and the Sheryl campaign and the DGA. Yeah. But I think that this year is going to be very telling in terms of what trajectory that we're on. And so I think it remains to be seen. Part of it has to do with technology. Obama took advantage of the Internet in a particular way and found a new group of voters. Trump took advantage of the Internet in a particular way, found new voters, and also dominated the conversation in a way that no president ever had, it seems to me. Now the technology is changing again, artificial intelligence and everything else. You must be thinking about that. Yeah, that's why I say I think what happens in this next 12 months is going to be very telling and give us a lot of insight into the trajectory. How are you thinking that through, and what do you think will be new or influential in this midterm election now? I don't know that I can predict it. I want to come back to this location where we are. We're surrounded by cars, we're surrounded by an auto show. It is also a giant multi-purpose convention center where ballots were counted in the 2020 election and people who believe the false claim that the election was stolen were pounding on the glass and trying to interfere in different ways with the count. And that raises questions for me about the next couple of elections. Do you believe the federal government will allow free and fair elections in 2026 and 2028? Well we're going to work hard to make sure that Michigan's ready and we take every election seriously. We know that there will be efforts to To compromise the election or to dissuade people from showing up, to scare people away, to threaten people, we cannot let that stand. And so we are going to be prepared and we are going to also, as we did in elections past, work with other states that are anticipating a lot of the You know, nefarious efforts that we are here and use best practices and move forward. But I'm concerned about it. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't. What do you assume the president's approach is? He's talked about redistricting, gerrymandering. But do you assume that the president will be doing more to interfere from your point of view with the results? I think it would be... We It's a mistake to assume that they're not going to. So I don't know precisely what it is that they might come up with, but we've got smart, sophisticated, savvy people around the tabletop that we will continue to get prepared. Some people spin out theories and they will say, well, DHS is everywhere, Homeland Security people are everywhere, and they might be used in some way. I don't think it's paranoia to have that concern. Why do you think Michigan has been spared compared to some other states? Minnesota, California, which have had National Guard on the streets and everything else that we've seen. You know what, first I'll just say I appreciate the work that my colleagues in Illinois and California and of course Minnesota are doing. They are under extreme stress and I stand in solidarity with them. I will also say that my our approach in Michigan is to try to keep the temperature down to keep open lines of communication and that's what we're going to continue to do and hopefully we'll continue to be successful but I know in these moments there's a lot of unpredictability and so we are on we're on high alert. Do you have some you said other than just being prepared do you have a task force do you have a group of people who are studying this do How are you prepared? There are important reasons that I'm not going into a whole lot more detail on that, Steve. I think, you know, I'll just leave it at this. We've got some brilliant folks who are working on this, and we will be prepared. Governors are talking? Democratic governors are talking about this? Yes. I want to ask one other thing about this, because I'm remembering that in 2020, The president very specifically tried to bend the electoral votes coming out of Michigan, asked for help from Michigan Republicans in the legislature, and ultimately didn't get it. Michigan Republicans refused to go along. Do you have confidence that the other party in this state would stand with the results once again the next couple of times? I know that there are good people in the Republican Party that would. I don't know if the whole party leadership would. I don't know what to anticipate coming out of the Oval Office. I'm going into next year going into the election well that's why I'm really glad that right now we got a Democratic governor that's going to be overseeing a lot of it going into this election and it's why I'm going to work so hard to make sure that we have a Democratic governor elected this fall as well. Well that's an interesting question if you don't have a Democratic governor obviously you'd have a Republican in 2028 would that add to the risk in your view? I think that that would make my concern level higher yeah. Depending on who it is. Governor, thanks so much. I enjoyed talking with you. Thanks, Steve. You too. Really appreciate it.