Supreme Court Rejects TN Government's Plea! Caste Controversy Erupts Again After Apex Decision

Let's talk about the Supreme Court ruling on caste, conversion and quota. In a setback for the Tamil Nadu government, the Apex Court has upheld the Madras High Court's order striking down the state's move to grant backward class status to people converting to Islam solely on the basis of their previous caste status. So, the Supreme Court observed that conversion to Islam does not automatically make a person a member of a notified backward class Muslim community and it held that social backwardness associated with the person's former caste cannot by itself form the legal basis for reservation benefits under a different notified community the case actually stems from a 2024 Tamil Nadu government order that sought to allow eligible converts to claim backward class Muslim status So the state had challenged the High Court's decision to quash that order, which the Supreme Court has now left undisturbed. We have guests joining us this evening for a better understanding of what this means, because this is, of course, one of the most contentious and widely debated issues. Joining us on the broadcast today is Ashwini Dubey, advocate on record of the Supreme Court, and Rajashekharan, a lawyer. Thank you. Good evening. I want to first, of course, put on record the fact that this does not mean that anyone from another religion is not eligible for any reservation. But I'll begin by asking Mr. Rajasekharan, does religious conversion change a person's entitlement to backward classes reservation? Or do you think that the caste disadvantage continues even after conversion? Good evening. Actually, Pratibha, we have to understand this case at the grassroot level. The caste, the only solution for all this problem, I'm keeping aside the Honorable Supreme Court's order. I would say the hierarchy, the hierarchy system of caste, which is being followed in India especially, and Tamil Nadu has seen the worst when it comes to caste of course other states also but Tamil Nadu has faced a lot of caste discrimination okay so that is the sole reason main reason for people to convert to Islam or to Christianity because of the caste discrimination and the untouchability being followed by the so-called upper caste. So, we have to address the root of it. Then, superficially say this, we have to obey the order. The problem is not with the people. The problem is with the system. The caste system which is existing in 2024. Of course, it was there for several hundred years before. Now, nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. But everybody wants to go by the order of the Honourable Madras High Court, which I strongly want to disagree with that order. But you know any reservation operates through eligibility conditions. So all the order says is that you don't automatically get that, isn't it? Let me bring in Mr. Dubey as well into the conversation because you know there are so many discussions around it over the conversion and the fact that the reservation still continues. even after you convert what was the issue with it and why do you think this Supreme Court order is so significant. Yeah, thank you very much for having me here. Supreme Court where honorable high court while hearing the plea of one Mr. Samir Ahmad who converted from Hindu religion to Islam in 2015 and the gazette notification was issued for the same in 2016 and Samir also married his wife as per the Islamic rites and customs had two children now he applied for the community certificate certifying his belonging to the Muslim Labbai community the application was rejected by Tehsildar against whom the plea was filed saying as per the GO issued by the municipal corporation BCNC and BC and MT department he could he cannot get the benefit the OBC reservation for the reasons because he has already converted to the religion where there is no caste system exists. Now if we see Article 16 sub article 4 Article 16 sub clause 4 which says that no statutory benefit protection reservation or other entitlement the enjoyment of which is dependent on a particular social order. Social order is here in the Hindu community itself where the SC, ST, OBC the horizontal and vertical both reservations are given keeping in with the criteria. He said merely on the basis of antecedent membership means the previously you were OBC getting the benefit, converted to another religion, religion which does not talk about the caste social order. You cannot get it. Against which he came to the Supreme Court. Honorable Supreme Court very candidly, not the first judgment. You remember the Hyderabad case. In Hyderabad, somebody converted to Christianity. The Supreme Court says you have already converted to Christianity. You cannot get the benefit of the social caste. Number two, you have converted to the Christianity. You cannot get the benefit of the SC/ST law. So, the person who converts from the Hindu social order to a non-Hindu social order cannot claim affirmative action under Article 16 sub Article 4 of the Constitution, merely on the basis of social backwardness associated with the pre-conversion status. He wants to get the benefit, he should come back to the original religion, Hinduism, so he will get the benefit obviously, where is it? Okay, I get the point that you are making. I want to ask Mr. Rajasekharan because you know a lot of times the reason cited for any conversion is the caste discrimination you also spoke about it so it's the same logic that applies when you say that discrimination is there in a particular religion say in Hinduism when you are converting for that very reason does that make it uh the person's right for that reservation to continue even after they convert uh with due respect to the honorable supreme court's today's order uh uh with regard to the high court order uh i would say uh how can you change if you if you claim if you claim to be born in one particular caste how can you get out of the caste what is the mechanism but that's the question for the eligibility as well when you say that you belong to one particular uh no i'll tell you i'll tell you i'm just i'm just talking about the existing what is the grassroot ground situation happening throughout the country. Example forget Tamil Nadu, let's go to some other state where the SC/ST or the Jat or the other caste people convert to Islam or Christianity and a Jat will be a JAT. I got your point. Can we simplify it more for our viewers as well, Mr. Dubey, very quickly, because we're running out of time. I take the point that you're taking. My question is, is quota based on a person's present identity or the historical disadvantages? Say a person converts now, their economic background still remains the same. Their family members may be going through the same or their family members have for generations gone through a certain discrimination. How has the Supreme Court viewed this? The Supreme Court has defined the constitution, constitution, order. A person who professes a religion other than Hinduism, Sikhism or Buddhism cannot be deemed to a member of a community which is getting the benefit, like conversion to a non-Hindu social order. Word is very clear, social order, social order does not exist in any other religion. Social order is Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra, so that by itself confirm membership of any particular backward caste community. So if he wants to enjoy, he should come back. That's the basic thing I can say. As a lawyer, as a constitutional person who knows little bit, I mean a student of law, going in another religion, when the country took, there was in Muslim community and Christianity, there is no caste, so how can you get the benefit? That's the only thing. Rajshekhar Bhai is very candidly has said it, but one thing, make it, leave the reservation, make India as oneness, leave the religion, make everyone Indian. When the reason cited for the conversion is a caste discrimination, then how can you Can you claim that reservation after you convert? That's at the base of the question. We could have discussed a lot more because this is, of course, one of the most contentious and widely debated issues. But now the issue has been settled in the top court. The Supreme Court has now settled it. Unfortunately, that's all we have time for in this edition of The Bulletin. I'm thanking our guests for joining us on the broadcast. Viewers, thank you for joining us this evening. Good night.