Scaling a Successful DTC & Trades Business in a Competitive Market With Ian Leslie of Industry West

Hey guys, we're here for episode nine of the e-commerce opportunity. And I have the fortunate pleasure of being here with Ian. How are you, my friend? Good, man. Good to meet. Good. Uh, good to be here, dude. I'm pumped for you to be here. You actually were referred to me by someone on Twitter and I feel like I know you, even though this is our first conversation. So I'm excited to learn about you, man, the Twitters, the Twitter, the Twitter. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, dude, I'm pumped. And I actually knew of the company that you run marketing. Yeah. So I'll let you kind of do an intro. Do you mind sharing kind of what you're working on right now? Yeah, sure, man. So, uh, my name is Ian. Uh, I am CMO of industry West, uh, find us at industry west.com. We also have a sister brand in favor, uh, in favor of, um, in favor of.com. Basically industry West is a 10 year old e-commerce furniture company. Um, and we do B2B and direct to consumer. And, uh, when I always like to explain, uh, when I say B2B, we don't do wholesale. Um, we are, um, we work with, you know, whether it's a mom and pop coffee shop, pizzeria, burger joint, everything from that to, um, internal or external procurement or like a Facebook HQ, Airbnb, Uber, we've done a food court, Yankee stadium. We've done a restaurant at Lambo, uh, Atlanta Hartsfield, like LaGuardia we're, we're everywhere. Uh, but then more so over the past year, especially much more on the consumer side, uh, direct to consumer, you know, obviously with COVID and everything. Uh, and then favor is our sister brand and, um, a lot of smaller home decor items or AOV, uh, different kind of, uh, target there today. Actually we had a product drop on, um, or, or plug on the Drew Barrymore TV show this morning, which is really cool. Um, and, uh, yeah. And, and, and I'm CMO. So sort of kind of, uh, trying to direct all that. Love that, man. I appreciate that. So question without giving like revenue numbers, like what percent of revenue came from B2B versus B2C, let's say before the pandemic. And now what's the mix now of revenue? Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's the easiest way to kind of talk those numbers through is e-com verse rep. Um, because I mean, generally our e-com, our e-com transactions are our consumer side while rep transactions are, um, our, our trade side. Um, now, like, we do have trade accounts through the website, but, uh, trade orders won't always take advantage of them and they'll just check out as consumers. So it's kind of a little bit difficult to drive apples to apples, orange to orange numbers. But so, but that being said prior to COVID or prior to, you know, 2020, uh, we were probably about 30%, uh, consumer side, um, 70% of the trade, uh, this year, uh, we're probably about 55% consumer side. Um, so it's definitely seen significant growth on that end. Um, and I think it's good. I mean, I think it's, it's really allowed us to make an awareness play into the consumer side. And, and if, you know, when we get on the back end of, of this insanity, I mean, we have hopefully two really strong channels. Amazing. And for you personally, like what were you doing before this? And did you join industry rest as like a marketing director and working with the early? Yeah, no. Uh, so I actually know the company company's 10 years old and I know the company since its inception, uh, Jordan and Anne England are their founders. Um, they are high school sweethearts, um, married, uh, and Jordan and I were actually working a previous gig together years ago. Um, actually he was in real estate. I was a jack of all marketing guy. Uh, and we were working in economic development for this small town in South Carolina. Uh, and he went off and founded industry West. And I mean, it's an amazing story. Like basically they wanted dining chairs for their house instead of like going online to buy them. He went online to find a manufacturer. And then, um, and that's just Jordan. I mean, that's just his, you know, entrepreneurial nature. And, um, he kind of, he brought him in, he liked them. He's like, I'm going to get a few more selling them. So I'm on eBay and he did and it worked. And, um, I mean, it went from that and like five skews out of his like shed in the back of his palace to, you know, 5,500 skews where we are now. Uh, but anyway, he, he went and did that. I went on to, um, lead, uh, uh, lead gen to man gen for, um, uh, an arts university down here in the South, Savannah college art and design where I led all interactive, um, and digital marketing with a goal of, uh, getting high school students to raise their hand and say, yes, we want to attend and learn more about your university. And then five, five years later, uh, we, we had stayed friends, but he kind of reached out to me and was like, you know, this is really ramping up and I need some marketing help. So I, I actually started as like kind of a, um, fractional CMO to them on a, on a con on a contract basis. Um, and after a year, uh, was full time. And, uh, and so I've, I've in total, I've been with the company now five and a half years. Um, but the first year that was on a contract basis, but, but CMO the whole time generally. Awesome. No, I appreciate that. So like, as a CMO of a fast growing company with, you know, a B2B division, a B2C division, obviously shifting a lot of gears to direct consumer, like what is like an average day or what does an average week look like for you? Like, what are you doing? What channels are you overseeing? Like we talked through some of that. Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that's obviously important. I mean, I think, um, I think my mornings are pretty standard or at least the first hour, hour and a half is really kind of diving into the numbers from the previous day. So it's, you know, what were e-commerce sales, what were overall sales, what were estimates, sales orders, et cetera. What was our media spend, you know, ROAS for the day, what channels, um, looked up, looked down, you know, uh, what products looked up, both down. Like, I, I, I see every single web order that comes through. So I, I like just this morning, I was like, Hey, I, I, or last night I was like, Hey, this product has definitely dropped the last couple of days. Why? And, uh, I asked our ad team and they're like, well, spend's been the same. Clicks have been the same. I was like, well, do we have stock? So I was like, Oh, no, we're actually out of stock. We should probably turn those ads off. So, um, no wonder they're not selling. So, um, so I mean, that's really the first hour, hour, hour and a half or so. And then, I mean, after that, you know, it's, it's pretty, um, it's pretty variable, you know, it depends on, um, are we doing calls with media or we're doing any kind of now virtual test sides, whether with the publisher, um, you know, reaching out, uh, regularly with our digital media buy team, which is outsourced, um, don't handle as much of like the dev conversations anymore as we, we now have an e-commerce director who's been with us for about a year. But, um, I've been doing a lot of work with the sales team as well to see, um, as that technology does fall under me and seeing like what's on their plate and, and what they're hearing from customers. And, um, yeah, man, it's, it's, it's a lot. Yeah, I'm sure that makes sense. So in terms of like the business that you guys are running, obviously you guys operate in a very competitive space. What are you think some of the things that have allowed you guys to be successful, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago, and now, like what are the things that have contributed to that? Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's a great question because I think it's a conversation I've had a lot lately, especially on, on Twitter, um, is, you know, could this company happen today? Like if we had started it today. And I don't think the answer is yes. Like I think it's, it's pretty resounding. No. Like, I think back then Jordan had a vision of like, first of all, he's got a great aesthetic vision. Like, and that's really, I hate the term, but that's our, our secret sauce is like, he knows the product that's going to hit. I think the second bit was like, Jordan had a vision for, there really was no one then who was like, if I'm opening a burger joint in Pittsburgh and I need 75 bar stools, like I have to go through all these bells and whistles and hoops to like, kind of get a quote or steal with a rep or whatever. And Jordan was like, I know these bar stools, like people like these bar stools, I'm seeing them everywhere. Like I'm going to bring a hundred, 200, 300 of them in and I'm going to sell them. And like he did. And like, and I think the fact that we carry inventory, um, was a big kind of, uh, opportunity for us, um, that we, we have some great product photography. We spend a lot of money on product photography. Our photographer is amazing. So I mean, I think that's a differentiator for us and something that, I mean, almost to the point where like people think some of our drop shadows are like fake because they're so well done. Um, and, um, so, I mean, I think that's been a huge differentiator for us. And that was like the first, you know, two to five years was that, you know, having the inventory word them out amazing customer service. I mean, I think now the last, you know, three or four years has been, um, really us trying to be as much ahead of the trends as possible. I feel like Jordan again, does a great job of sourcing and working with different factories and manufacturers and designers. And, um, and I think when we're able to be first to market or very close to first to market, um, we really hit like, so for instance, um, Kane and Rattan has been like a really trending kind of look lately. And we were very early in, in getting those to market. And I mean, it's just been an amazing kind of product launch for us and product line. So I'm going to think that's really benefited us and, um, and just our bootstrap strap nature. I mean, we are a bootstrap company, and I think everything we do is like just very fit. And, um, we don't have the cash runway that a lot of venture capital kind of back companies have. And I think it, it, it restricts us to an extent, but it also forces us to just be very strategic and deliberate with every decision. I love that. No, I appreciate that insight. Uh, one question I actually just thought of. So most of the people who haven't on the show have brands for one year, three years, five years, right. You guys have 10 years. How do you guys think about like customers growing with the company, right? Like other customers from 10 years ago and still buy to today. And how do you think about retaining customers over the next one, three, five, 10 years? Yeah. I mean, I think it has, you have to look at that, you know, via the segment. I mean, I think, yeah, we have trade customers like Gensler's and, um, these, these amazing interior design firms that yeah, have been customers for 10 years. And I think, you know, they're going to keep coming back based on the customer service and based on us basically meeting their, their demands and, and, and meeting their expectations. And so they have chairs, they like, they have sofas, they like, you know, they know us. It's like, Hey, you need a quote. We get the quotes in them fast. Do you have the inventory? Yes. They go good. We know we can count on industry less, um, for the residential side. I mean, I think it's all about introducing new product and, and just being front of mind and being on, on, on trend. Um, I mean, I think I did a personalization chat yesterday and a lot of, you know, a lot of personalization kind of software trying to sell you on like, well, people bought this sofa and they're going to want the matching chair and the matching table. And that's not how people shop with their homes anymore. Like they want. And so like they may buy the sofa from you or the bed from you, but that doesn't mean they want the exact matching nightstand. Right. But maybe there's something they'll like down the line that you'll, you'll have something new that they will want for their living room or their want for their, you know, the kitchen. Um, so I mean, I think it's a little bit different how furniture works. Um, and I think just us, you know, I think our ability to keep customers coming back is is the new product and the new designs and the new styles and the, and the trends. That's awesome. I completely agree. So moving on to like a couple of marketing questions, like what are channels that you guys are leveraging that obviously people know of like a Facebook and Instagram and are there any channels, whether it be like house or something else that's like industry specific that you're leveraging like on the marketing side? Yeah. So I mean, yeah, we, we do all the basics. I mean, we've actually divested from Google a little bit, but, um, we're quite a bit over the last couple of years, but yeah, we're very, you know, obviously on social Facebook, Instagram, um, Pinterest, we use credio for retargeting. We're kind of trying to start getting into a little bit more email advertising through live intent. Um, we're working with the reversion on our affiliate, um, kind of campaigns. Um, I think something that's been a boon for us is some white label marketing through social. So using some publisher platforms or properties to, uh, push our content out there and our creative through their, through their properties, but optimizing against the pixel on our own site has worked well. Um, so, I mean, I think that's, that's, that's really the long and the short of it. Like we don't, there's really, we talked to house for a bit, but that really never kind of panned out. Um, but I think we're always looking for different channels and, and we're going to start actually start listing some items on Amazon. Um, but, uh, I think right now, I mean, I don't, I hate to say like, I don't think we're doing anything like particularly like totally out of the box. I just think we do, we do some things really well. Yeah. And I think that's honestly a great answer because I think people are always looking for like the next growth hack and the next channel is going to unlock all this crazy things. And I think that the reality is right. That doing a lot of things consistently well and getting better at it, you know, day over day, week over week is actually the, that's the secret, right? And you have to be patient and you guys are 10 years overnight success, right? So I respect and appreciate that answer. Yeah. Um, in terms of like the team, like how big is the team company wide and how big is like your, your internal marketing team? Yeah. So, I mean, we are with, we are, we do employ our own warehouse team. So with that, we're about 40 people. Um, that, but that again includes the warehouse team, which is, you know, a fair amount of our team. Um, we're, we're, we're pretty lean for, um, you know, the company, the size we are, and I don't, we'll be reporting revenue network. We were working with, uh, an article, a writer to talk, that's going to include our revenue numbers, but not something we put out there currently. Uh, but I mean, for the size of the company are, we're very lean. I mean, we really focus on that bootstrap nature. So, I mean, for our side, like we have an e-commerce director, we have, um, graphic designer, two graphic designers, uh, in-house photographer. And then, and we have a few people are some of one person right now handling kind of web content in terms of uploading product, et cetera. Um, and then, um, and then a lot of it is subbed out. So like we do have a systems integrator that we work with on the, on the dev side for backend dev. Um, we are media buy is handled. We outsource our media by, we outsource a lot of our PR. Um, so I mean, it's a, it's a, we're more in-house than we used to be, but we're still, you know, we outsource a good deal. That makes sense. How do you guys make the decision on like which roles to keep internal and which roles to kind of leverage outside? And then at what point do you bring the external ones internal? Yeah, I think that's a great question. I mean, I think it's something we talked about a lot and I think a lot of it is the complexity of the position. I mean, I think developers especially like Magento developers and, you know, is that something we can hire for, is it going to be easy to hire for, is it something we can, um, keep up? Like, do we want to run our own magenta or internal dev shop? I mean, that's not easy, you know? Um, and then like you have, uh, like our media buy team, like it would it be more cost efficient to have one or two people in house? Like certainly, but that's, it's, it's a, it's a scary thing to consider because I mean, you don't want to have turnover there. And so, and you, and then when you're dealing with an agency, you're dealing with, you know, um, obviously we have a point of contact, but there's like just such a vast pool of knowledge within that agency, uh, that you're not necessarily seeing directly, but you know, is being contributed to, to your, your company. So, um, I mean, I think it's a hard decision. I think, I think cost efficiencies are the primary determination of when to bring something in house, but you obviously have to balance that cost efficiency. One with the complexity of the position, how easy it is going to be to fill it, how easy it is to refill it once there is a lapse. And then, um, yeah, I mean, I think that's really it. So, I mean, I think the ones that we struggle with the most in consideration of, of bringing in house are the developer positions and then the media by positions. Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing that in terms of like, tools that you're using and you can take this in any direction, either tools that you use personally to organize your own schedule and be more efficient or effective, um, and or tools that the team is using to organize internal external vendors. Um, what tools are you guys using? That's been helpful to whatever it might be. Yeah. I mean, of course, like we use Slack and like, you know, we have shared spaces with our, our external vendors on Slack. Um, I mean Asana, um, I mean, I think I don't, again, I don't think we're doing anything particularly crazy. I think just, uh, just optimizing some of the best practices out there. Like I said, Slack, Asana, um, I mean, that's really eight, you know, shared docs and stuff. I mean, uh, yeah, nothing, nothing too, too out of the box. Cool. That's, that's fair. I appreciate that. Um, two, two more questions for you. So the question right now is, I mentioned this I think right before, like people that are listening to this fall into three categories, right? They're brands, agencies, and freelancers for you personally. Like if you were to start a business today or if you were to recommend someone starting a business today, which of the three paths do you think you'd go down? Do you think you'd start a brand? Do you think you'd start an agency or you think you'd go freelance? Huh? That's a good question. Um, man, I don't know. They all have their gosh, it's, it's hard. Um, I think they all have their pros and their cons to be honest. Um, I mean, I think the agency side is really interesting because you get to touch so many different brands. I think that's always seemingly attractive. Um, uh, but then again, brand is, is your baby. Um, and, uh, I, I was freelance for a bit and this stressful, I mean, you know, that is very stressful and like where the next check's going to come from and then having to deal with your own, uh, benefits and everything, especially when you have a young family. Um, and I think that's, I think that's tough. I mean, I think it's, you know, I don't think it's, um, I guess you asked me the question, but I think it's really dependent on the individual, right? Like what, what appetite for risk do you have? And, and, and are you someone who just wants to dedicate yourself to one brand or do you want to be touching different brands? Um, so, I mean, I think, uh, I think I could see myself fitting in all of them. Um, though I'm, I'm, I think I'm good. I'll stay away from freelance for a little bit for now. Yeah. I think that's a fair answer. I think they're, they're all a grind. And it's really like, which one resonates with you? Which one are you going to wake up every day and be stoked about? And which one are you really good at? Right. Um, and I can add different careers, right? Obviously you've been a CMO of established business. Um, right. You might be doing something different than someone starting out, starting out might be better to go freelance because it's, it's cheap, right? $0 to go start. Right. So I think that makes sense. Yeah, for sure. Sure. And then the last question I have for you, and then really appreciate you being here and your answers and your time. Um, how do you personally learn new things and are there any resources that you recommend for e-commerce, you know, knowledge either on the free or paid side that you get value from? Yeah. I mean, I think we joked before we got on here, but like, we, we had kind of known each other via Twitter, but I mean, I think, you know, Twitter and marketing Twitter and DTC Twitter is like huge value following the likes of web and, uh, uh, Christina and just like, there's some great follows out there that are just offer amazing value add, uh, and what they're providing. Um, and I mean, I think that's really it is just like kind of finding these, these learning from people bookmarking, um, reading these articles. Uh, there's some decent newsletters out there. Obviously I probably don't, not subscribe to enough of them, but, um, but I think, uh, yeah, I think for me, like how to, I think one of the things that have allowed me to succeed is, um, not thinking I need to know how everything works, but at least knowing that something is possible, like, and then really realize like connecting with who can help me figure it out. Like, I don't know, like, it's like, I know, I know this is possible because I've seen a donor. I know it's possible because like, it just should be possible and then like, who do I connect with or how do I figure out how to do it? As opposed to like me thinking, I need to know everything because it's just not possible to know everything, obviously. Um, so I'm going to think that's like, uh, again, and then like, knowing, you know, knowing what you don't know, but then knowing how to reach out to those who can help you. Um, but yeah, I think Twitter is a huge resource and I think is, there's really like my go-to for just like what's, what's trending and what I need to know at any given point. Yeah. And again, I think what I really heard is being resourceful, right? Being open-minded, being willing to learn and being willing to ask and say, I don't know. Um, so yeah, sure. Sure. And thank you for, for being here. I really appreciate your time. Um, for anyone that wants to connect with you, anyone that wants to come work for you, anyone that wants to work with you, whatever it might be best place for someone to connect with you. Yeah. So of course, um, for our companies, of course, industrywest.com in favor of.com and then me personally, the best way to meet to find me is on Twitter. Uh, I am, I are Leslie. So I R L E S L I E. Uh, and yeah, you can follow me there and all my hot takes are not so hot takes. Amazing. I'll drop your links and thank you so much for your time. Yeah. Perfect, man. All right. Thanks boss.