Producer Ken Scott's Amazing Life and Beatles Stories Part 2

And they'll stand at the back of the room, something will happen, and they'll side with the lead guitarist when he wants more guitar. So suddenly it's that new person and the guitarist against the vocalist who wants his. You have to learn when to not say anything or when you are gonna say something, how to put it very politically so that you're not, you're pouring water on the fire as opposed to oil. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've learned about creativity over the years? You've worked with some of the most creative people on the planet, and you've been there when it happens. Again, we all just get to look at or hear, more often here, the final result. And so it's us, and we can't imagine the process that went behind it unless we've actually been in a recording studio and seen the process. But for most people, they don't get that luxury. They don't get to see how the sausage is made. Can you kind of take us behind the scenes and from all your experience, if you had to distill what you've learned about the creative process, what it really looks like when it's happening as opposed to the final version? It can be the most boring thing in the world, and it can be the most exciting thing in the world. The Beatles, a lot of the older, the reason that Jeff Emerick or I will put on the Beatles sessions, as young, we were younger than the Beatles. Jeff had been an engineer for six months before he started working with them. As I said, I'd never done anything before working with them. And I've forgotten where I was going with that. Oh yeah, okay. So one of the things with the Beatles was the hours. The older engineers were used to the sessions being 10 to one in the morning, 2.30 to 5.30 in the afternoon, 7.00 to 10.00 in the evening. And they liked that. They were family oriented. They still got home to see their kids and all that kind of thing. Whereas the two young guys, Jeff and I, we had no family. We lapped it up. We didn't mind working those hours. And I keep on forgetting where I'm heading with this question. Well, the question is, again, from within, seeing it happen, tell me what you learned about what the creative process really looks like. Right, so with them, it could get very boring. On the White Album, we'd spend three days just trying to get a rhythm track of the same song. And that would drive, that was another reason the older engineers didn't want to work with them, because, hey, we're not going to work until five o'clock in the morning, especially if we just keep on doing the same thing time and time and time again. We didn't mind it quite as much. It could get boring. But for me personally, I knew what it was going to finish up like. I knew how brilliant they were. It didn't matter how boring it was, it would turn out brilliantly in the end, which it always did. Well, yeah, luckily I didn't have to work on Revolution No. 9, but Jeff got that one. But yeah, it can be instantaneous. It can take a long time. Oh, I'm sorry. I was there in France with Elton when he came up with Rocket Man. The way we were working, Bernie Topian, the lyricist, would go up every evening to his room at eight, nine o'clock and he'd come back down the next morning for breakfast with everyone with a stack of papers and he'd hand them to Elton. Elton would go through them whilst he's eating breakfast and he's, yeah, yeah, I like that one. No, no, oh, that one might be good. And he, this one particular morning, he gets this one that's called Rocket Man, picks it up, goes over to the piano, and within five minutes he's written a whole song. It can be that instantaneous. It's, I seem to remember Paul telling stories about yesterday, how he had that in his mind for ages and was it scrambled eggs or fried eggs or something to do with eggs, not yesterday. Scrambled eggs, yeah, fits the scanning of it. Until finally he got it. Now that one sort of got dragged out. So there is no, the one thing that I have learned, for me, the way I work as a producer, I learned very much from Sir George Martin and from a gentleman called Gus Dudgeon that produced Elton amongst others. And it's very much that talent, artists are put into the studio to create and you have to allow them the freedom to create, always knowing that you can go to them and say, look, it's not working quite well here. Let's go back a bit and take it from where it was working and see if we can get it better. And for the longest time, I didn't understand what George Martin was doing. It didn't seem to be doing anything. I was very much, the thought process for me was very much, he's the fifth Beatle, what are they talking about? He's not doing anything. And it wasn't until I, really until I got into production myself, I realized how much I'd learned from him and you have to allow them the freedom to create. I was on a panel once with another one of the exec, the people on the panel was an advertising executive and someone, this was at a university, and someone asked about putting ads together, TV ads and the music and all of that. And he said, oh, I just take these people, put them together in a room and tell them, you have 12 hours, you've got to get it done. And then it came to me and I said, I've never heard such bullshit in my life. If you want talent to create, you have to allow it just to do it. And the audience erupted. It's, you can't rein it in. It either happens or it doesn't. So I've got one last question. I mean, I could ask Beatles questions all day long, not gonna bore everyone with that. One last question, similar to what have you learned about creativity? What, and you kind of alluded to a lot of this in your last answer. What have you learned about leadership from having been in the studio from the very beginning when you were just, when you were a cutter and that sort of thing, all the way up to actually producing monumental albums where you are the person that people are looking to. And you're working with incredibly bright, incredibly creative people. That's a challenge for any leader, not just in an artistic field, but any leader faces that. How do you lead a creative, brilliant team and know when to dive in, when to step back? What have you learned about that? Diving in and stepping back is purely gut reaction for me. I've always, I believe in an inner voice. It comes under many different names. For me, I prefer to call it an inner voice. This occurred, I'll take you back a bit to my interview with EMI. My favorite band at the time was the Beatles. Now this was about four weeks before they went to the States. So at this particular time, they were the biggest band in England, Europe and Australia. They hadn't broken the States yet. And one of the questions was, what is your favorite band? Now, automatically I would have said the Beatles, but that inner voice told me, don't say the Beatles, say something else. So I said the Dave Clark Five. And they looked at each other and said, why the Dave Clark Five? And once again, that inner voice told me what to say. Now I know I didn't put it in quite these words, but it was along the line of, well, the addition of the sax and the keyboards gives them a totally different sound from the typical two guitar, bass and drums band. The two guys interviewed me, looked at each other and grinned. I'd given them exactly what they wanted. They wanted someone that was interested in sound, not someone that was interested in the artists, the stars that would come in. Even musically, it was, I specified sound and that's what got me that job. And it was that inner voice that did it. That inner voice has been a part of my career the entire time when I've followed it, it's never let me down. And it's very much like that in the studio when we're doing something, if that inner voice, when I'm listening for it, if that inner voice says it's not there yet, let's do something else, you just very gently. A lot of the time I've been told, a lot of the time the artist doesn't even know that I'm controlling what's going on, it's so subtle. The band that I was managing, Missing Persons, it was interesting because typically once they became successful, they ditched everyone around them. They thought they'd done it all themselves and then immediately, boom, they died a death. But the breakup was not very pleasant between us when it happened. But eventually we got back together again and all friends and the leader of the band, Terry Bozio, the drummer, he said, he had no idea what I did and what I brought to the whole project. He said, leaving me was the worst decision they've ever made and he did not know. And it's that thing of being able to guide without being, you're gonna do it this way or forget it, you gently guide and almost make it that they think is their idea. That's great. Does that answer your question? Yeah, yeah, very much so. I love the idea of almost invisible leadership. There, but they don't feel led, but you are leading. And you are aiding what they are doing. That's what George was with the Beatles. It was in the very beginning, he would tell them to slow down a song or speed it up. I think you probably know all about the early recordings and how he guided those, but very soon after he wasn't, he didn't need to guide them. He let them go until something would go slightly off and then he just gradually get them back. And when there was something missing from it, he would, why don't we try something here that just, it's gently guiding and aiding in the finished product. But for that to work, whether it's George Martin or Jeff Emmerich or yourself or any of them, there has to be a trust and the trust has to go both ways. Yes. I have to trust you, you have to trust the guys or whoever you're working with. If that trust isn't there and that trust can't be dictated, that's gotta be earned. I mean, you have to earn that from having been around them long enough that all of a sudden you would make a suggestion when you finally got to that position that they could trust that, oh, Ken's okay. He knows what he's talking about. And you have to trust the artist to be able to come up with the goods. I mean, the trust has to go both ways in order for the whole thing to work, doesn't it? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think that's the whole thing with my working with Bowie. I'd done two albums with him just as the engineer. And when it came time for him to sort of put up or shut up, he had his own ideas about what he wanted his music to be like. Space Oddity, his one success in the very beginning was very much him. If you listen to the demo of the song, it's almost identical to the final recording. But then when he went in to do the album for Space Oddity and then the next one, Man Who Solved the World, it wasn't so much him. He would come in, sing the songs, and then go. He'd write the songs, sing them, and then basically go. The one in charge was Tony Pisconti. And the two albums failed. So David reached that point where he had his ideas. He knew what he wanted to do. And so it was find someone that could work with him like that and aid him in getting what he was after. And he knew I'd worked with George. He knew I'd worked with Gus. And we'd worked together just as engineer and artist. And he knew he could trust me. And we both went in there. A lot of trepidation to start with because neither of us had produced before. And so it's go in there and see if it works. And it did. And that's Hunky Dory, which eventually became very successful. So yeah, we trusted each other. I finally trusted him that he could actually become a huge act. And he trusted me that I could become a good producer. Well, he had the good sense to bring in some guitarist whose name escapes me now for the song Heroes, which worked out pretty well also. Sorry, if I could just jump in there for a second. One of the things that I would say for both Bowie and The Beatles was their courage. That whole thing of making the same record time and time and time again, because that's what management and all that, they never did. They made records for themselves. And it was to hell with anyone sort of what anyone else would think. And David was brilliant in putting together teams that would give him what he wanted without him having to direct them. It was amazing. The last thing that I worked on with him was something that originally was for Diamond Dogs. It didn't work out. But whilst we were working on it, David kept on saying, I want more American. I want more American. I want Philadelphia. And so he then finally, he couldn't get it in England with an English engineer and English session musicians. So he finally went to the States and suddenly he gets all this American sounding music. Then he wanted something a little more out there. So he goes to Berlin and that certain person that you were talking about, and I think he would agree that the way David tended to work was he would play the song for the musician and then just let them play what they felt should be played. I was talking with the engineer that recorded his last album, the last two albums actually. And even when he was at the end, he was exactly the same. He put together teams that worked for what he wanted just by playing them the song and letting them do what they do best. That's brilliant. I'm gonna toss it back to the other RIP now, RIP system. Okay. And thank you so much for the book. Thank you for a lifetime of brilliant music. It's been the soundtrack of my life and certainly many of the people here and the inspiration for a lot of the career here. Hey, I just put the icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't have done it without the artists in the studio or the audience that would spend the money to buy the records because without them, none of us could have done what we do. So they are the most important people as far as I'm concerned. Fair point, I think we can all relate to that. All right, RIP Patricia. Okay, thank you, thank you, Bill. And let's open it up to our audience. I see, okay, marvelous Mark. Mark Camp, who is a performer in Las Vegas, that his programs are about the decisions that the rock stars make. Anyway, your question for our guest, Mark. Thank you, Patricia. Kenneth, I have a question and then I have an idea to kick off your speaking career. First question is, when it comes to what's going on inside of the studio and what we always have called the creative juices are flowing or we have that moment, how much are based on the brilliant minds that you worked with, how much drugs and alcohol or substance were in the mix versus the people that were in their sober, clear mind and really focused? Did uncontrolled substances have a huge part in the creativity or the ideas that came out during the recordings? I've walked out every time someone has used drugs in the studio. I've been told that by people that, oh, well, we must have been using all of this kind of thing and other acts that I've worked with. And the last time I ever worked with John Lennon, it was on a track for the Imagine album. It was at his home studio in Ascot. And the afternoon we did a track for Yoko. That went as smoothly as it could do for Yoko. And then the evening we were doing a song, I Don't Wanna Be A Soldier Mama, I Don't Wanna Go To War. And John showed it to the musicians and they worked out the arrangement. Said, okay, it's time to start recording. Pull out the white stuff, cut it up. Okay, let's go do it. They go out there to play and it wasn't very good. They come in, hear it, oh, I know what that needs. Okay, let's go do it. And after about three or four times of that happening, I just finally said, sorry, guys, I've got to leave, I've got an early morning session. I'll see you. I walked out and that was the last time I ever saw John. So yeah, it may help in writing. That I can't say, because most of the time I haven't been there in the writing situation, only in France with Elton. And that was very clear headed from him. And once again, with David, it was later. I know when trouble started for him and exactly who started it. But there was nothing other than caffeine, nicotine and a couple of beers for Ronno for those sessions. So I don't think it helps at all. Well, I admire your courage and discipline in that area because I'm sure it could lead to conflict and fighting and everything else. Yeah. Can I tell you one other story to do with it? Absolutely. The one time that I did allow it, I did stay there for the whole thing. I was recording an album by a band called The Tubes, a San Francisco based band that were brilliant. They were so ahead of their time. They should have happened when MTV started, but they were a bit before that. So there was one track and they had various singers. A couple of the guitarists would sing, then they had a front man that would sing. This particular song was one of the guitarists, Bill Spooner, his singing. And we were talking about what it should be. And we determined, and I can't remember which way around it was, we determined that the chorus should be smooth and the verses should be a little ragged vocally. So he said, don't worry, I know exactly how to do that. We'll go for the choruses first. Okay. He said, give me five minutes. He leaves the studio, comes back five minutes later with a fifth of jack. He says, okay, let's start. By the time we'd done all the choruses, he'd downed that entire bottle of jack. Then it comes to the verses that had to be a little rougher. He said, hang on, give me five minutes. He goes out, comes back, white powder, goes out there and his voice starts to get a little raspy. And by the time we'd finished getting the verses, there wasn't much left in that bag. I didn't mind working with that because we got exactly what was required performance-wise, the whole thing, sound-wise. If it had started to go off, I would have brought it to a halt there. But he did tell me upfront, by the end, you are going to be in complete control because I won't know what I'm doing. So that's the only time I've really accepted it. Marvelous, Mark, you have a suggestion for Ken? Yeah, you know, they always tell us to try to find our niche audience. And based on your very interesting and funny testicle story, I'm thinking maybe you should have your management or your marketing team start targeting urologists. And then after they read your introduction, your walk-up music can be AC Deasy's Big Balls. Okay. Thank you. All right, good. Now, Brian Walter and then Steve Ball. All right, again, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom and your history with us. It's just fascinating. My pleasure. So, I mean, it's clear from what you shared that you have this remarkable ability to, what I'll say, lead from the board in ways that maybe they don't even know that you're leading from the board. What is one of your most favorite interventions that you did, whether they knew it or not, that you felt, ah, that really helped? They'll never know, but it really did. Well, one thing that came from me very early on, and, but I don't know if they realized where it came from when it happened, but this was The Beatles, and it's a track called Your Blues. And what transpired was we were doing a vocal for one of George's tracks, which finished up not being used on the album because George just couldn't get the feeling that he was after from the vocal. We tried various things, strange ways of recording the vocal to see if we could get him into the mood. And after doing one of these, we were listening back in the control room and John was by the side of me. Now, just to explain very quickly, number two control room these days is much bigger than it used to be. And what they did, they knocked down a wall because there was a very small, bigger than a closet, but not, but still very small room next door, which just used to house a four track machine. And so I, John was by the side of me and I just turned to him and I said, the way you guys are going, you're going to want to record in there next, and pointed to this very small room. And John just looked at me and looked away and I thought, okay, it's not as funny as I thought it might be. Two days later, he comes in and says, we're going to record a new song. It's called your blues. And we're going to do it in there and point it into the room. And we had to then set up the entire band in that room and cut it live, including the live vocal. If the drums, the bass, the two guitars, the vocal, if one of the guitarists had swung around too fast, it would have knocked one of the other players heads off. It was that crushed, but it finished up working quite well. And I don't know if John ever said where he got the idea of doing it, but yeah, that was from me. Well, we know, so. Yeah. Good. Thank you. Steve Ball. Ken, I have a quick question and then maybe a suggestion for how you may increase your connectivity with people who are doing well with speaking. But first, is there a question that you wish we would ask you or a question that has a reliable, hit it out of the park response that we haven't asked you yet? Not that I can think of. No, no one's come up with the Eric Clapton story question. So no. No, I can't. Jeez, I've had so many questions over the years. Now, sorry, I can't come up with one. No worries. And let me mention one other idea. I belong to a group of fairly accomplished humans who regularly host 20-minute speaking sessions, and it might be useful to go do a 20-minute speech for them targeted at meeting the other people who are already successfully doing what you wish to do, which is find a global audience and multiply your presence across audiences who will love your stories, the clean ones and the dirty ones. Now, is this in America? Because of course, our guest lives in England. It's international. And I'd already mentioned this to David Singleton over the weekend. There's a few people on this call who would probably benefit from some interaction with these people because what I find is sharing a little bit about who you are means you get to meet, interact with, and learn from other people who are doing things that you can also learn to do. And I think Anthony was a guest for a couple of weeks, but I'll connect through Patricia, Ken, and see if I can get you connected for a 20-minute speech for this group. That'd be great. Thank you. All right, good. Any other questions? Oh, Paul, is there anything in the chat that you see that I'm not looking at? There is just general chat information. Bill, Brian Walter came on and asked this question live. And then Susan Rowan said other markets would be for the pool story, paramedic associations and pool industry expo. Yeah, good, good. Just Rowan, so you know, before you came in, everyone was asked, you didn't invite any women. And I said, one. So thanks for coming.