Are The UCI Ruining Mountain Biking？ ｜ The Global Mountain Bike Show ep.7

I actually split my testicle in half at a World Cup in Vail, Colorado. Let's move on then to a few- Genting-Rissveds kind of lost a bit of control and went outside the tapes. No. Well, I mean, she didn't, did she? He literally jumped off a mountain with a carpet. The trouble is, you don't want the UCI rules to be the talking point. Enduro e-mountain biking is simply non-existent. In terms of the demise of enduro, the destinations, the lack of destinations, the lack of new destinations has been the biggest killer. On today's Global Mountain Bike Show, due to the recent spate of injuries, we're going to be asking the question, is mountain biking safe? And are the UCI actually ruining the sport of mountain biking through inconsistencies and over-complicated rules? And folks, the big one, are e-mountain bikes taking over the sport of enduro? Come on, Steve. Come on. Folks, lots of injuries around the world in the last few months. Evie Richards at the World Cup Cross-Country took a bang to the head. Yes. Pretty serious injury, that. Lots of other mountain bikers, Tani Seagraves had injuries. Loic Bruni's out. Loic Bruni's out with more of a minor injury, a wrist injury. But then we can look at some of the bigger, bigger injuries, such as Adolf Silva in Rampage last year. And Emilio Hansen, don't forget, as well, took a massive one. So I guess the question is, you know, is mountain biking safe? Is it becoming more dangerous? I guess the first question we need to ask is actually, what are we measuring? Are we measuring injuries or are we talking about deaths? Because there's lots of other sports out there, which I'm guessing are going to be more dangerous than the mountain biking. Right, Reg? Definitely. I think if you are talking about deaths, then you probably put mountain biking very low on the list. But if you're, you know, we're going to compare it to, say, mountaineering, well, then, you know, mountaineering is far more dangerous in that sense. You know, going up Everest or any of the 8,000 meter peaks that are out there, they have a zone called the death zone, which says it all really, right? Now, I can't remember the exact stats off the top of my head, but the, you know, the chances of dying once you get above that, because the human body literally can't function properly, is massive. I think the mortality rate is 12% when you get into those high mountain zones. Pretty high, right? What is this? The death zone. The death zone says it all. I mean, wingsuiting, to me, oh my. I mean, it's insane, though. How good would that be, though? How good would what be? Wingsuiting, that would be unbelievable. Did you see those guys jumping off with carpets to the day? They literally jumped off a mountain with carpets. Yeah, but I mean, if you look at sort of wingsuit, base jumping, mountaineering, you know, the Isle of Man TT race. Look at that that's just happened. I know that's a bit of a curveball. Yeah. Well, let's get away from the curveballs. Let's talk about some actual data. I've got some facts here of cycling versus other sports, and this is against most mainstream sports. Cycling tops the list in the US with over 859,000 ER-treated injuries across 2023 to 2024, giving it a danger zone well ahead of basketball and football. I'm guessing this is American football because basketball comes second with 718,000 injuries in the same period. But is this, okay, let's clarify, is this mountain biking or is this cycling as a whole? So this is cycling as a whole. I'm assuming you obviously mentioned that those are ER-induced injuries. No, injuries that you need to go to ER for. I don't think I worded that quite right. But, you know, I would argue that maybe basketball, there's lots of sprains, lots of damaged fingers, busted pinkies, who knows what's going on. Whereas mountain biking, the severity could be far higher with some broken collarbones, concussions, big bumps, bruises, scrapes, cuts, and so on. But then again, Ferg, you mentioned previously about cars, the proximity to cars. I'm really surprised. I mean, again, you mentioned before that the injury rate was higher in mountain biking to road cycling. And I find that super shocking because for me, I've always considered mountain biking safer in a way because it's only me who I'm having to worry about largely most of the time. It's like you and your bike and static obstacles. Whereas when you're on a road, you've got yourself, you've got any kind of drainage bumps or things that might be on the road. And then you've also got other road users. You've got horses, you've got pedestrians, you've got cars. I mean, the number of- Other cyclists. Other cyclists, yeah. The number of times I've heard of friends. I mean, you said yourself, you've been knocked off of- Yeah, yeah, I've been hit by a car. Really? Twice, yeah. Wow. So for me, that is so much more dangerous. I consider that more dangerous. And I guess this is where we're saying it is like, is mountain biking getting more dangerous? And are the injuries getting that way? I guess it is all a case of working out how we're calculating that. Yeah, I think we can come on to maybe some head injuries a bit later because I think it's something they've definitely tackled in American football and also in rugby recently. Kind of collisions and impacts are a big part of the assessment of rugby players at the moment. Let's go into your question, Ferg, which was, what's the difference between road cycling and mountain biking? So whilst mountain bike injuries are similar or slightly higher than road cycling, injuries tend to be more severe with mountain biking than road cycling. However, most recreational riders can probably cycle many years without serious injury. We'll come on to that a bit later. Now, there's a big difference, okay, between cross-country and downhill. I want to give you some data here. Because this is where the numbers diverge massively. Cross-country, just 0.4 riders injured per 100 hours. Relatively low risk. Downhill racing, 4.3 riders injured per 100 hours. That's 10 times higher than cross-country. Which is why it's way cooler. I mean, the disparity between what each kind of rider is doing, I think, is quite high. So if you take downhill, for example, and we'll just use the World Cups because they're a clear division as to what each kind of rider is doing. We'll look at huge jumps, huge drops, much higher average speeds, albeit the race length or distance, time, whatever you want to call it, is far shorter for downhillers. The opportunity, I would say, for injury is far higher in downhill racing compared to that of cross-country. Would you agree with that, Ferg? I would agree on that. The thing that I would also argue though with downhill is that most of the riders, and again, most riders are wearing more protection and better protection. So as much as they are traveling at higher speeds, the quality of the protection they're wearing is designed for those higher speeds. Whereas a lot of cross-country racers, I mean, racers, riders, no knee pads, a tiny little half-shell helmet. But I fully understand that within that data, the vast majority of mountain bikers aren't wearing full faces day to day. They are wearing trail lids similar to that and maybe some knee pads as well. Let's come back to the protection a bit later because obviously protection has improved over the years. A couple of things we've seen in the past 12, 18 months, we've seen terrible injury of Adolf Silva in Rampage pushing the envelope. We've seen Matt Jones try to attempt a canyon gap in North Wales. That's death zone stuff, right? Yes, that's all by choice as well. Not that I'm downplaying those injuries or potential for injury. That again leads down to, well, mountain biking is as dangerous as you decide to make it, right? Now, we all probably have taken, well, we definitely all have in this room, way too riskier lines or jumps or tried things that we knew were on our limit. That's what those guys are doing. They're just doing a much higher level than us at the moment. Now, funny you should say that, Rich, because I've got some more data here, right? More data. Skill level actually matters because they find, this is from Springer, expert riders actually injured more often, 17.9 per 1,000 hours, compared to professional riders, which are 13.4 per 1,000 hours. This is likely because pros have more refined technique and risk management. I bet you the severity of the pro riders' injuries or crashes is way higher than that of the experts though, if we were to delve into that data, Stephen. I actually went to Fabien Barel's house about a decade ago. We talked about this whole business of calculated risk. There comes a zone on a track where you actually have to take, maybe a root garden or a rock section. You've just got to roll the dice, right? 100%. I think when you're at the pinnacle of your, again, we're using racing. When you're at the pinnacle of racing, yes, there is a dice roll moment because that is the differentiating factor between those races. They're all incredibly highly skilled. Nowadays, incredibly highly trained. Also, the bikes are all insanely capable. We see less of the differences there and it is more about that calculated risk, how far they can push the envelope outside of their own skill level. Again, like you say, that is a bit of a dice roll but also a calculation. I think where the expert riders were seeing, like you said, more crashes in expert riders. I remember personally when I was an expert. Actually, let's go into some personal perspectives on this, shall we? Very quickly. When I was an expert, I had all of the confidence that I was good at riding a bike but none of the experience. I mean, it is the most dangerous time. Most of my big injuries have come from that point in time in my career because I was trying to get to that elite level of riding. I saw what the elite level riders were doing but I didn't understand it. Can you give us an example of an injury you've had? Yes, a pretty huge one. When I was 21, I hit a tree. A long time ago. Yes, I know. It feels ages so long ago. I hit a tree and my shoulder went underneath my chest and ended up right here in the center of my chest and was there for six hours, resulting in, obviously, a subluxation of my shoulder but also severing of the nerves in the back of my shoulder. The thing there, Ferg, is you got away with that. If you look at South Wales rider Tom Wheeler, maybe a similar injury, he's now not got a use of one arm. We've had many discussions, him and I, about this. We had really similar injuries, similar impacts. I had a neck brace on. Now, I still don't really know what the neck brace did. It didn't break my collarbone, which I think was something that a lot of people did. That's what the early ones did. Whether it was enough that it glanced it away from some of the more vital nerves, I don't know but I think it was just a lucky thing. On the right side of the luck, he got on the wrong side. Obviously, it's left him paralyzed whereas I was able to get back on my bike and ride. Good luck and bad luck. Rich, what about you? Ribs, broken ribs are the most annoying thing. Unbelievably painful and frustrating. I just come up well short on this big jump, took a stem to the chest and it broke a load of ribs. That was the problem. That was my own error of like, it was actually during a four-cross race way back in the day. Committed, didn't have the speed, come up very short. I guess one for me is, I actually split my testicle in half at a World Cup in Vail, Colorado. Let's move on then to a few- Wait, we can't not. Oh my goodness. I was actually in FHM magazine next to lots of models on the following pages. The half ball edition. Yes, exactly. Folks, let's wrap this up by talking about a few things. Downhill is maybe riskier. Riding beyond your skill level, do you think there's increased peer pressure for kids these days to- Massively. Do you think so? Yes. Social media now, I think it's more visible than ever. I'm sure many of us have felt that pressure. We see someone do something cool. We see one of our friends do something cool. I think now again, there's lots of groups of younger riders watching their friends. On one hand, that's great for progression. You see how amazing some of these younger riders are now. I think social media has played a big part in people taking unnecessary risks. Maybe again, before they've got the experience to necessarily understand it. Rich, what about enduro? Riding unfamiliar terrain, do you think that's increased the amount of injuries? No, I would say it's not because that's been how it has been for a long, long time. Enduro racing, you generally get a sighting, we'll call it one practice run, one race run. That's the format. Most riders and most people who do it are very familiar with that. I would say at a grassroots level, you generally get more practice and it's shorter, more chilled stuff anyway. No, I don't think that's really played a part. I heard recently there's, what did you say about learn something? Is it at trail centers or bike parks? Pre-ride, re-ride, free ride, which is a great mantra, isn't it actually? I saw it, I was in Whistler the other day and I was going up on the lift and it literally had massive signs underneath. Pre-ride, re-ride, free run. It's essentially do a sighting run, then do a bit of a proper run and then you feel free to give it the beans kind of thing. I think we've all been guilty of giving it full send on the first lap. So folks, to wrap up, I think it's well-recognized that there's possibly less serious injuries to recreational mountain bikers than you get at pro-level races. I think the bottom line is that things have got better, the bikes have got better, the safety equipment's got better. It's as dangerous as you make it. What you said there, Rich, I think is fantastic advice for anybody going to ride at a local trail center or bike park. Folks, it doesn't really matter what we think. Do you think that mountain biking is safe? Please do let us know in the comments down below, along with any experience you've had, both minor or serious. Rich, I think that was a great advice which you left us with there. Pre-ride, re-ride, free ride. Overcomplication and inconsistencies in the rules. Is the UCI spoiling World Cup racing with their tactics? We've got some very accomplished presenters over on GCN, no more so than Si Richardson. Si, how many world championships have you ridden in on cross-country? Cross-country? Oh, here we go. I mean, you've done it in 2001. Two, three, four, five. I went home just before the start. It wasn't very well. So how many is that? Four. And then 2007, so five. And folks, this is off the back of Daniel Lloyd recently. Tell us about his World Cup championships exploits. Si, on the weekend out in Lugang, a few controversies. First of all, Genting Risk Feds kind of lost a bit of control and went outside the tapes. No. Well, I mean, she didn't, did she? For anyone that didn't see it, so it was at the start, wasn't it? So they were all grouped together. It was big. It was wide. It was like a wide, grassy track. And Sevilla Blanc was on the outside. She was in the lead. And then as I see it, Risk Feds basically accelerated, was carrying way more speed, and so was overtaking Blanc just as they came into the corner. Now, Blanc took her line as she would without seeing that Risk Feds was already there. And you can see on that close-up shot that they had in the footage that their handlebars pretty much connected at the point. Yeah, but only just. So you know that Blanc would have either seen or coming or should have seen it coming. Now, I'm not saying it's Blanc's fault, but I also don't think it's Risk Feds' fault. I think it was just one of those racing incidents that happened from time to time. Are there parallels here with road cycling? Is it like an etiquette which plays out in road cycling as well? Well, I mean, just like mountain biking, you're not really allowed to barge into people. But I think when it comes to the rules, like UCI rules, this is a racing incident. And so it's down to the commissars, like the referees, to make a call, isn't it? So I guess if there are parallels in road racing, it would be in sprint finishes. And so again, you're not allowed to do various different things. You're not allowed to deviate from your line. You're certainly not allowed to barge into people. But they do appreciate that sometimes people will touch elbows, touch shoulders. Yeah, exactly. Rubbing is racing. And so if someone goes down, inevitably, they would be penalized. But I think mountain biking, cross-country mountain biking, is different. We've seen battles in the past with, is it Nino and Flückinger? They were like- Yeah, and Absalon as well back in the day. Do you think then, did Jenny get the benefit of the doubt because she was taken off her line and therefore went outside the tape, outside the marker? So they thought, well, we'll allow her to come back without rejoining the race. Do you think that was the- Well, so the tape, the course marking is another thing, isn't it? So the rule states that you have to rejoin the race at the point where you leave the course. But she didn't, right? She didn't, no. But I feel like- She also gained an advantage from it. That's the other part to the argument, is that she came in second and left first. Well, I mean- Well, she did. There's no deny that she was second into the turn, first out of the turn. What's your take on this, Rich? Well, I think that it was a poor decision from Jenny. I think there should be a penalization there because she did leave the track. I do think there was enough room inside Sevilla to have passed without fully T-boning her. And I think the biggest problem here is that later on in the race, this is where the disparity and the rule kind of questioning comes up, is that Mathesizaro, same race later on, and it's the fact that Mathesizaro is leading a train of three riders. He pulls into the tech feed zone, pit lane, whatever you want to call it, goes into it leading, comes out of it still leading. Now, he's DQ'd after the race because it's deemed an unfair advantage. If you go into the pit lane and don't take a bottle, a drink, or need some kind of mechanical assistance, you have to stay on the racetrack, which he did not. So, he left the markers, essentially. He seems to go the long way round, though. Yeah, he didn't gain an advantage. He didn't gain a position. They're going so slow that didn't seem to make any difference. Right, so, you know, has he come into the corner too fast, couldn't make the tight right and therefore gone in the pit lane? I don't know the full ins and outs. Here's one for you, folks. I actually think this controversy has made it quite interesting. Like, you know, it's a great talking point, Sante. I mean- Well, the trouble is you don't want the UCI rules to be the talking point, right? So, I think in the Azzaro case, it's really unfortunate and it's a blooming harsh decision. Like, I really feel for the guy. I think from the UCI standpoint, they've got this rule that I think must be relatively new because pit lanes is a new thing in cross-country, certainly since my day. But then there are parallels to cyclocross, right, where you have pit lanes. And in cyclocross, everyone knows that if you go into the pit lane, you have to either change a bike or the very least stop and then get going again. And if you don't, they will DQ anyone who does it. So, I think now this rule's been brought into mountain biking and so all Azzaro needed to do was to take a bottle or something from his pit crew and then it would have been absolutely fine. So, that is an absolute mistake on his part. He's broken a rule and the unfortunate thing for him is that he was obviously having the race of his life. Thank God he didn't win because it was looking like he was going to for most of the race. Yeah, that would have been worse. Totally. But he kind of is the fool guy. Now everyone knows that you do not go into a pit lane and not do anything. Like, that is the rules. So, with the Jenny argument then, here's my thing is riders are so aware of the rules and what they can and cannot do. The previous round in the downhill, Jackson Goldstone hit a jump, got blown off course outside the markers, instantly knew he was DQ'd. Like, you could hear he literally shouted on camera. You could hear him bitterly disappointed. So, Jenny would have gone inside those markers knowing she shouldn't go inside markers but just plowed on anyway. Yeah, I mean, I think cross-country and downhill are very different in this regard. They're the rules of the rules. You just said that. Well, I know but like in Jenny's instance, like I said, it was a racing incident, right? And I think what you need is the commissars to be able to say like, okay, you know, that was a racing incident. There was a coming together. Blunk came off worse. Risfords got bounced off the course for like, you know, what? Three or four meters? Like, to your point, she had an advantage. But yeah, I mean, if she hadn't gone off the course, she wouldn't have been any... Like, there was no advantage to her going off the course. The advantage was that she stayed upright and Blunk didn't. Do you know what I mean? So, I think like whilst it looks like it's an inconsistency, I actually think the commissar should probably be praised for saving one of the two races because otherwise, you know. Yeah, I think that was the right call. Wow. Interesting, folks. Let us know what you think about those two controversial events in the weekend. Just going back to the Jackson Goldstone one, Rich, that was pretty severe, right? The fact that he got blown off track by a couple of inches, but he was outside the marker. Yeah. Do you think there should be maybe a little bit of... The leniency there. It happened on the weekend with Ace Vermette. He kind of went over that double, got blown off the hill pretty much, right? Yeah, I mean, actually, on Jackson's case, he got DQ'd in both of his Q1 and Q2 for being outside the markers. But, you know, the guy knew it. He owned up to it. On the first time, he actually went off course, ran back up round and rejoined. Obviously, his time was so slow that he didn't make it through. So, should Jenny have just looped around and gone back in? Well, like I said, though, they're different sports, right? You're talking three minutes versus an hour, right? What's the winning margin in a World Cup downhill? Less than half a second. Exactly. Jenny won by a minute, you know? Like, it's not the same thing at all. Like, if, you know, in cross-country... Do you know what? One of my most frustrating moments in World Cup cross-country was in Madrid World Cup, right? 2005. 2005, 2006. And I was actually, finally, I was gridded quite high up. I think I was, like, top 20, top 30. And then, literally, about 50, 60 riders cut the course ahead of me. So, I went from, like, 30th position to, like, 80th. Honestly, obviously, I was so annoyed. You know, that's the kind of thing in cross-country where, when you cut the tapes, it's a DQ. Unfortunately, for those guys, there was safety in numbers. So, they didn't get DQed. That was just the race. But, do you know what I mean? What Jenny did, like, that's the kind of thing that can happen. Yeah. And I just don't think that it can be used as, like, the Goldstone wrist fits thing. It's just not a comparison. You can make it, I think. And one final item about the UCI. I heard about a female rider being DQed because her bike was 20 grams. And what's... Yeah. Well, so, in road racing, there's a minimum weight rule that applies. So, your bike has to weigh more than 6.8 kilos. Now, Darren and I were talking about this in GCN show a couple of weeks back. We thought that was a bit harsh in part because, you know, the weighing scales that weigh the bikes are not accurate to... So, it might not have been calibrated then. Exactly, yeah. But, we had some really, really interesting comments under the GCN show that week. And a lot of people pointing out that, actually, the team was at fault because you know, as a team, that if your bike weighs close to the weight limit, you should probably add a little bit more, right? Because, you know, what you don't want is... The weight is before the race, I presume? And they weigh it after. I mean, it's like they get a chance to weigh it after as well. So, that's where she fell foul. So, she won the race, then they re-weighed her bike, and they were like, oh no, it's too light. Or they didn't weigh it before, they just weighed it after, and it was too light, so they DQ'd her. You could have just added some stickers to the bike, right? Well, this is it. So, everyone pointed out that, actually, it was the team's fault because they gave her a bike that was, you know, too light, essentially. And I got to say that, actually, that is valid. So, it's a brutal, really harsh decision. But that's a case of rules are rules. That is a rule that is a rule, and they clearly thought that, you know, yeah, it's enough. But... Yeah. Si, thanks so much for coming in and sharing your cross-country mountain bike knowledge. Well, thanks. Any time. What was that again? Seven World Championships? Now, five we counted, didn't we? Five you competed in, seven in total. That's pretty good going. Well, yeah, kind of, yeah, yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, I was really slow in all of them. You know, I was there. But mountain biking's where your heart is, right, Si? It is, mate. Well, I mean, I like all of them, but when, yeah, when my local trails are running well, like 100%, that's the bike that I ride all the time. Rich, I'm sure you'll agree that it'd be great to get Si on the Global Mountain Bike Show again, right? Definitely, we'll have to pick his brains on a few other subjects we've got coming up. Any time, chance, any time. Thank you. Gents, has the sport of enduro been hijacked by e-mountain bikes? Now, enduro began, or the French invented enduro back in the 2000s, some amazing events all over France. It was adopted by the Italians with the Super Enduro Series, which attracted hundreds, maybe thousands of entries. Enduro World Series became a thing in 2013, and then it became a World Cup event in 2022. Thoughts on that comment? Has enduro, I guess we're thinking- All you want us to say, Steve, sitting in there in your little EMBN corner, you just want us to agree. Big chat, that's what it is. Anyway. Two things actually before we start, is that I think we need to identify the things between being a recreational activity and a sport. Because at the minute, enduro as a sport exists in terms of competition. Enduro e-mountain biking is simply non-existent. I think we need to set those parameters to begin with. But enduro style riding is. Is that what we're discussing? There's two different ways of looking at it, isn't there? Personally, I think, yes, you could argue from a race perspective, e-bikes have not contributed to enduro doing as well as it potentially could be. If you were to look on a domestic point of view, I think racing is as pretty big as ever, but everywhere you go now, there's a normal bike category and an e-bike category. Ferg, talk to us about the demise of enduro has been much spoken about over the last few years on a sport, on a competitive level. Talk us through that. On a competitive level, I think when the EWS first formed, it was a really, really high participation level sport. Anyone could enter. I think that was the bit that was so popular, was the fact that you could go up, your average Joe, your Sunday warrior, could go and race against Sam Hill, race the same tracks and everything like that. It was so cool. I had loads of people locally to us who would book. It was like a holiday. They'd book a whole holiday and go riding with their mates, and then they'd all line up in a massive train. Like a bucket list event. Exactly, and they'd just go and race it, and then they'd get back and they'd be like, oh my God, Sam Hill smoked us by like 50 minutes. The thing is, right, it was amazing. The first ever EWS at Punt Rattler, it was on a beach, tick. You had Greg Monasti, Pete Nicovulios, Fabian Barel, Dan Atherton, Jared Graves, all these mountain bike legends from a male perspective, just came and raced that, and any rider could ride it. It was amazing, right? I think that that is, before we get too carried away with ourselves, I think destinations, in terms of the demise of Enduro, the destinations, the lack of destinations, the lack of new destinations, has been the biggest killer. Really? That's on a much more recent note though, right? Yeah, so when we first started, unbelievable, like you were saying, the most stunning destinations, you and I raced in Madeira, we raced everywhere around the world. Chile, Columbia, New Zealand, Madeira. I was talking to Alex Rankin last week, you shared a car ride with him to some, Columbia or somewhere like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God, yeah. But like, it was everyone's together, right? It was cool. It's like a big family traveling circus. Whereas then, I think the EDR came in, and I don't want to speak ill of three-letter organizations, but I think that they tried to make the sport more elite, which I completely understand. I think Corona before that though. Corona, yeah, Corona didn't help with the old nose-jabbers, I certainly didn't enjoy that. You and I both did some rounds with the nose-jabbers, it wasn't much fun. Were you nose-jabbers, were you? Yeah, we had to do that, but I think that they brought in the e-bike category at the same time, I think that was a similar sort of time. 2022, I raced it in 2022. They brought in the e-bike category. One of the hardest things I've ever done on two wheels, Ferg. I'm sure you'll agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't do that later. My heart rate would get way higher than on an e-bike for sure. 10,000 calories. I believe you. 8,000 zone 5. Anyway, that says more about your fitness than the category, but anyway, we'll move swiftly on. On that racing note, because I've likewise done an, it would have been an EWS at the time, e-bike one at Tweed Valley. The logistics of it, I think, are what's quite off-putting. You need multiple batteries, maybe infrastructure wasn't quite there to be able to do it. You did have differences to it in terms of power stages. It was really good from a spectator's point of view, but it was just quite hard to do it. It's not a participation event. I think that was the thing. How many people own an e-bike, which especially at the time, e-bikes were super expensive, then had the ability and could afford to buy three spare batteries? That brings that cost and makes it- Let's try. I think we need to be careful. We separate recreation from sports. For sure. To answer the question, has EMTB led to the demise of enduro racing? I'm not sure it has done. If we move on to EMTB as a sporting event, from a personal level, it opens up so many different levels to riding. I think technical uphill riding, adventure, orienteering, trials- E-bikers can have orienteering, if I'm honest. Yes, but for the trials, there's so many levels that an e-mounted bike can operate at. I do actually disagree. I think in terms of physicality, an EMTB race can be as physical as a mountain bike race. Can you believe he's saying this, Rich? I can see his eyes looking over at me going, is this actually happening? Again, I haven't done one. I'm not saying they're as tough, but they're not easy. When you've got the likes of Nico Vouilloz, Jared Graves, and Fabio Umbrella, the top of Hill saying, this is too hard, this race is harder than a mountain bike event, I think I rest my case. However, folks, racing is a niche thing. I think what we're trying to identify here is, has e-mountain biking taken over enduro as a kind of idea? I'd be inclined, unfortunately, to agree with you with that, because I think when I go to local trails, go to local trail centers, it's hard not to acknowledge just the sheer size of groups of e-bikers now and the dwindling numbers of enduro. They're still out there. There's definitely still a lot of people riding conventional bikes. As I'll adopt a bit of James Pickering here, it is real mountain biking, and it is just mountain biking. I really enjoy it. I will always enjoy. I know you said it's the purest form of suffering, but I will always enjoy the feeling of having done a huge ride and earned every single ounce of my terms. I do need to qualify that before you go as accusing me. I think a couple of things is that it's reflected in the sales and shops, local shops, 70% of sales are now e-mountain bikes. I have gone through the suffering on many multi-day enduro events, such as Andes Pacifico, as Trans-Provence. I've done that on a mountain bike, so I do have that experience, but I think the suffering on an e-mountain bike can be of a similar level, just different, really. Sorry, Richie. No, it's cool. I was just thinking away there whilst you guys were chatting. I think basically what it is, what it boils down to, if we're going to look at it from just a participation for your everyday rider, is its accessibility. E-bikes are more accessible than ever before. Affordability, well, they've come down in price, really. What you can get, I recently took delivery of that white Kado S, four grand, spot on enduro bike out of the box. The development in e-bikes, no longer are they ugly, horrible things with batteries just bolted to them that don't really last, or can't update and break all the time. They're really pretty flipping good now, right? Yeah, I rode that new Econo. Yeah, that's the thing, is e-bikes are really good and really affordable now, so why would a lot of people in their mind, why would I buy a normal bike? I know you mentioned about timing as well. I think that enduro would be one of those things where you go out for six hours, and I think the reality is that we had that luxury as you know, and people in the industry, we had more time, but for a lot of people, they're time poor, and an e-bike is a solution to allow them to still do a sport they love, but on a short amount of time. So in my mind, yes, I think e-bikes have contributed to the death of enduro a little bit, but that's not a bad thing. And I guess you recognize that e-mountain bikes has brought in a new type of mountain biker, right? Who's enjoying the countryside and just enduro to them is on many different levels, right? Yeah, so are we all in agreement? It has contributed to it. Folks, let's put your thoughts. Have e-mountain bikes led, or have e-mountain bikes actually taken over enduro? It's probably a better question. And what about the sport of enduro? Where does the future of that lie, both globally and on a local level? Folks, been good fun this week. Yeah, cheers, mate. Looking forward to seeing you folks next week.