Potter Nic Collins in conversation with Mike Goldmark | Goldmark.TV

Nick, how are you? I'm good, Mike. And yourself? Good to see you. And you. How has this affected you? Well, it was difficult for the last two firings planned because, of course, John and Andy and Sim, my usual firing crew, who have been around with me for years now, they couldn't get here. So between myself and Sabina and our student, Tash, and there's a local lady who came and helped. So it was all a bit kind of very hectic. But other than that, really, you know, we've just got on to what we do here. How many do you normally use to, or how many normally help you to fire? Well, I have three regulars and usually a student. So there'd be four of us plus myself, five of us. And how long does that go on for? Well, it's four-day firing. So each person does a four-hour shift. And then they have, well, I'd like to say eight hours or 12 hours off, but that's not the case. Because there's always wood to move and things to do. So as soon as they get up from the sleeping, then I'm badgering them to be doing other work. Has it never occurred to you that there must be an easier way to make a living? Yeah, but it's not kind of anything that would remotely interest me. It's kind of the battle with a wood-fired kiln and that uncertainty, you know, you can find a way. And how do you say it? It's kind of like the only thing I've been watching a series called Australian Gold Diggers, you know, and they do all the work, all the research into geology and everywhere. And they know there's gold there. But, you know, you can go there and search and not find anything. Then the next moment you find a huge nugget. But wood-firing kind of holds that excitement to me. You know, I can do all the work, all the research and understanding and experience over years. And because everything is so vast in wood-firing, you can only be pointed in a direction. And whether you're rewarded or you have to handle yet another failure, you know, then that's kind of the drive for me, I think. Whereas an electric kiln or a gas-fired kiln, something that is so predictable just wouldn't hold my attention, Mike. I would have been bored with it many years ago. Sure. I think that's a lovely way of looking at it. Nick, you're in your early 60s. So, for us, one of the young ones, because the average age of most of the potters that we work with is considerably more. Can we talk about the very young Nick Collins? Okay, the very young Nick Collins. You, as a kid, what sort of way you grew up and what sort of family it was? Well, my mum, very much a working-class family. I was brought up in a council house in a small village just outside of Stratford-on-Avon. And yeah, mum worked on the land and I have fond memories, childhood memories, of kind of going to work with mum, you know, and meeting the other kids and we'd all explore around the farms and strawberry fields and it was pretty good for a youngster at that time. So, what sort of age were you then? Probably about 10, 11. Yeah, me and my mates used to go off into the woods and stuff and explore and just get into mischief as young boys do. My dad worked in a factory. Yeah, he worked hard all his life and, you know, he did what dads do and I miss them both. They're both dead now and greatly miss them. But I do have three siblings, two older sisters and an older brother who still live in the area. But we don't see a lot of the family now and, you know, I'm down here in Devon and I love it, Mike, down here. So, it was an outdoor life then, wasn't it? Outdoor life, very much so. So, you learnt to feel comfortable in the countryside and in the woods and the fields? Yes, very much so, yes. And, you know, we used to earn pocket money with fruit pick. We'd go fruit picking and things like that in the summer and as lads, you know, we never went without. It was a great life, yeah. I don't know why I've not really realised that you were a Midlands chap. Really? You thought I was always from Devon? I don't know. You haven't got the accent, but I don't know. Maybe I didn't think about it. So, what was schooling like? Well, I went to secondary school, which was absolutely rubbish. And I was rubbish at school. I didn't want to be there. They didn't want me there. I was kind of a bad boy in with the bad boys and doing things that you shouldn't do. Were you proper bad or just gently bad? Gently bad, I think. Yeah, I wasn't proper bad at all. No, but I kind of liked to push things to the edge even then, I guess. So, it was always kind of on the edge of things. No, not bad, bad. Just kind of doing what boys do. Were you a fighting man? A fighting lad? Not really. Occasionally, you know, I kind of got into situations where you had to, but no, not really. Generally, you'd get out of things like that or things kind of came to nothing. So, no, not that bad. No, I just used to be chasing all the girls all the time and being out all night worrying my mother and looking back on it. Yeah. That sort of school in those days, those sort of secondary moderns, was it called a secondary modern? Just secondary, yeah. Did they have lots of craft things there, woodwork and metalwork? Was that part of the curriculum? Actually, it was, yeah. The school I went to, we were very lucky in that we had metalwork classes, woodwork, art. In fact, I used to really enjoy the art class and I think that's about the only I think they were called CSE. I got a grade one in that. Did you? Yeah, I did indeed. Yeah. Yeah. And I really kind of loved my art. It was probably one of the only classes I really excelled at. And was that because you had some sort of affinity towards it or that you happened to meet an inspiring teacher? I think I just had that bit of affinity, you know, it was kind of natural for me to to do that kind of thing. Yeah. I'm not saying the teacher was particularly good, but it was one of those classes that I looked forward to going to. So did you look forward to leaving? Very much so. Very much so, yes. So how long were you at school for? Was that? Till I was 16. Right. Yeah. And then I left school and my first job I was as a welder. I trained as a welder and then did various jobs welding up dumper truck buckets. And then I was welding up tandem bicycles for a couple of years and then I found a job building silos. So we travelled, the three of us, in a transit van with all our tools and we travelled up and down the country building silos on farms or in factories, you know, like Potato. I remember doing one in Holland for McCain's chip factory. And yeah, that was a good time too. And was this still based in the Midlands in those days? Well, yes, but with the silos, of course, we were travelling all over the place. And what sort of age have we got you to now? That would be late teens. Right. Yeah, kind of 18, 19. And did you do lots more things before you started to pot? Very much. Yes, I did. Yeah. Actually, after these, building the silos, I was laid off and then I went back to college at Stratford and did A-level art. Did you? I did. Yeah. I got very much into painting. I mean, for a chap who hadn't liked education, why did you do that? So my girlfriend at the time was working in the theatre, Stratford Theatre. Right. And I basically had nothing else to do. And I just looked at the local college of higher education and got talking to the art teacher. And then did A-level arts at Stratford and he got me a grade A in A-level arts. Was it easy to get back into, to get taken back in to do that? Did you just have to apply or? Well, yes, I just applied. I went for an interview and got straight in. Wow. Yeah. And you're, and how old are you now? Still under 20? Yeah, just coming up to 20. Right. So how long was that? Was that a year or two years? That was just one year, two years, two years. Yeah, two years. So suddenly you do A-level art. Was that all practical stuff or did you have to write as well? That was all practical. Yeah. A lot of watercolours. The teacher was a guy called David John Crockett. And he was very good. I'm tempted to ask what sort of hat he used to wear. Yeah. No, I think he signed his pictures David John rather than the Crockett bit. I think his parents had a sense of humour. And were you doing that just because you enjoyed it or did you somehow think you might earn a living doing it or did none of that go through your mind at the time? I purely did it because I was enjoying it. Yeah. And then after that, I really at that time wanted to do painting and nothing but paint. And it was purely, my girlfriend then had got an interview at Sheffield Uni and we were driving up the A38 and we saw Derby College of Education. And I knew they'd got a ceramic course there. So I called in there and that was it then. I just got straight in on the college course and did HND Studio Ceramics at Derby. That's extraordinary. And this is on the strength of one exam that you'd taken. Yes, but not only that. At that time, there was a brief time where me and the same girlfriend, we used to travel around the free festivals. There were lots of free festivals at that time. And to make a living, I started making clay pipes for smoking hash. Seriously? That's wonderful. So that was my introduction into ceramics. Tell me about those festivals. I bought my first bag of clay from, do you know the potter Barbara Cass? She used to be in Stratford-on-Avon. So she sold me my first bag of clay. We used to travel around in a little Volkswagen caravanette selling these clay chylums for smoking hash. Did you copy someone else's or did you work out how to make the thing? How did that happen? Well, at that time, I no longer smoked hash, but at that time I was. And so I was well used to what they look like and what they should do. But the ceramic side of it, I knew nothing. I knew that clay had to be fired. So I built this kiln and I remember sitting there all day feeding wood into this thing and then the next day I broke this kiln down and these chylums were still like covered in soot. They were still clay. So then I decided to look at a book on kiln building. And that was the start of my ceramics career. Did you find a book on kiln building for hash pipes? Actually, the kiln I built was very, very similar to a Roman kiln. Was it? Yeah, you know, just with a firebox in and then the little dome. Yeah, it would have worked if I'd have stoked it a bit longer. And where did you do that? In your garden at home? My parents' back garden, yeah. And they were well pleased? Well, I told them I was making props for kiln shelves. So then you went around the festivals with a big sign saying hash pipes for sale? Well, we used to go around and into people's tents and campfires and sit down and have a smoke with them and sell them our chylums. And that enabled us to make a living for a couple of summers. Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. And then, of course, I got the clay bug then. So then it was down to looking at pots and started me on where I am now. And from there, you get to tell me about Derby, getting into college. Getting into Derby, I remember walking in there and seeing there were about 12 students working at the wheels, throwing pots. And it was such a nice atmosphere there. And the lecturer, Keith Maskell, he was such a nice man. And as soon as I walked in there, I knew, right, this is what I want to do. This is where I want to go. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. And I found Derby. It was such a practical course. The first assignment we had as first year students was to build a kiln. You know, it was a wonderful experience. And it was at the time when there seemed to be plenty of money thrown at the arts in the courses. So, you know, you could use as much as everything that you needed or wanted. So when you when you went there for your interview and they asked you why you wanted to do it, did you have to have certain qualifications or was the only qualification that you had plenty of pocket money by making hash piles? Well, actually, I was stone broke. All potters are stone broke. No, it was, I think, just the enthusiasm, you know, and the passion that I was showing. Yes. Yeah. And I think being slightly older, you know, a lot of those who come all through the education system, you know, I'd been out in the world and done other things like welding and on the building and things like that. Which all of those jobs at the time, you know, I worked as a welding building labourer, but that enabled me to work with a bricklayer, with an electrician and with a plumber. And all those skills have come in very useful over the years. You know, just hanging around those those trades and you pick up a certain amount of things. And also the confidence, you know, a lot of these jobs, many people think they're out of their scope, they can't do them. Yes. I mean, I'm all for this. I mean, for me, that's what I call a real education. And I love the idea that someone took you because of your enthusiasm. Yep. Yeah. And looking back, you know, I see why I'm doing now because of those things. Yes. You know, that's the nature of who I am. That's what I do. And has earning money always been completely secondary to you? Indeed. Yes. Yes. Very much so. It's been the passion to do what you wanted to do and then the hope that somehow there was enough going to come in to let you do the next thing. Life has been funny, Mike, you know, when often when you're kind of really down, you've got bills coming in and then you'll sell a pot or something. It's always been like that. There's always something kind of at the last moment, just before you're about to throw in the towel, you know, something happens. And ceramics hasn't supplied us with a great deal of money, but it has supplied us with a really good deal on life. You know, Sabina and I both live in a very nice place here now. But when we first came here, there was no electric, there was no roof on the property. It was a derelict mess, you know. And nobody in their right mind would have touched it. But now just on pots, you know, we sell a couple of pots and we do a bit of building. And over the years, we've got quite a nice place here now. And we both sit back, have a beer outside in the summer and look back and say, is this really ours? How the hell did this happen? And that's not through worrying too much about money, but just kind of getting on and doing what we do. Sure. It's absolutely fascinating, Nick. Tell us more about the journey from the finish of college to Devon, where you finally settled. Was it a three-year course? Two years. Two years. Well, after that, being a young man, I met another lady at Derby. I then went after college, worked briefly in Germany and Italy in potteries there. How did that happen? Just for an advert, there was a pottery in southern Italy looking for students. And me and my friend drove down. I had a little mini pickup and we both drove down to southern Italy in this mini pickup. And with the tailgate down, folded down, we could both just about sleep in this thing. So that was quite an adventure. Did you have the odd pipe to sell on the way? No, I'd given up smoking by that point. And then I came back up and worked for potter in northern Germany, Martin McWilliam, who was a wood firer. And then came back and I'd split up with my old girlfriend and teamed up with Moira. And her parents had a shop in Tynmouth on the coast down here. And again, I got no work. And then I was looking for a workshop. I really had no plans on setting up pottery. It just kind of all fell into place. And a workshop I saw upon Dartmoor, and it belonged to the Duchy of Cornwall. And along with that, I rented a cottage and a workshop from the Duchy at Powder Mills upon Dartmoor. Did you ever meet the man? I didn't, no. But he has bought one of my pots. After I left Powder Mills, I'd sold all the stock to the now owner. And about three months after I left, of course, Prince Charles came down. And apparently, he came by helicopter and got his man to measure this pot to see if it would sit in the spare seat in the helicopter. And yeah, that one's in Highgrove, I believe. That's wonderful. Yeah. So you haven't put the notice up saying by appointment? I did get two Christmas cards off the man. Yeah, we used to get a Christmas card every year. So how long were you at Powder Mills for? I was there for 12 years. Right, so actually quite a chunk of period. Yeah, yeah, a big chunk of my life. And that was probably, oh, I worked hard. I was just 30 then, and I'd got so much energy and so much drive and just knew what I wanted to do. Nothing else mattered. And Powder Mills served a purpose that was in 1988, I started there. And at that time, brightly coloured earthenware was very fashionable. And brown pots were, forget it, you know. And if it wasn't for the fact there's only two roads going across Dartmoor, and I was off the beaten track, and tourists would come down, and they felt embarrassed, so they had to buy a pot to get away. It kind of kept me going, because I just wouldn't have stood a chance anywhere else. But that was not thought about, that just happened. You know, and that was, Powder Mills was a wonderful place, but very, very wild. And in the end, Moira and I began to have problems. And my work was kind of outgrowing the market there. We, at that time, become very kind of into the woodfire process and what the woodfiring could give me. But I was finding that I was making work that was completely foreign to the tourists coming in. You know, I still made mugs and jugs, but with all the dribbly ash, and the things that go on with woodfiring, it was becoming, people can be quite rude to customers when they don't understand what it is you're doing. Yes. And I could write a book on those things. Were you, at that time, influenced by other potters? Or do you think you've really been ploughing your own furrow? There were one or two other potters whose work I really liked, like Chester Neely in Australia, Owen Rye, I think people like that, who were kind of working the fire. Patrick Sargent was another one. So there was a small group of people kind of exploring the woodfiring. But you weren't in the leech tradition? I love traditional pots, so I was very much influenced by that. And I still am, you know, I love traditional forms. But there's also an added element of the woodfiring. Something kind of takes over when you're a woodfirer, and it takes you into other places. And that's where I was going. And once you've gone there, you can't turn back. You know, I still find woodfire, that's why I do it. It's fascinating. There's no end to it. It doesn't matter how many lifetimes on this earth you'll have, you'll never find the ultimate woodfired pot. And you know, I don't want to, you know, it's that fight and that kind of exploration that is the drive. And the moment if you found that ultimate pot, then you know, that would be the end. And I don't want to come to the end. I wonder whether that's a difference between you and numbers of the other potters who use that woodfired process in order to achieve something which they already have in mind, which is part of what's often called the sort of the leech hammered tradition. And you who are using the process to continue to explore where it's going to take you. Which is why your pots do look, I mean, I don't think they look like anybody else's. To me, they don't really seem to be in a particular tradition. You seem to be, I mean, you know, other than if you take a mug, it's a mug. But you know what I mean? You do seem to be exploring in a way that is, I think, seldom seen. Yeah, I remember after firing once at one of the shows somewhere, I was firing a kiln and the results weren't very good. And one potter, an established potter came up to me and said, you know your trouble? I said, what's that? He said, you're experimenting too much. And, you know, I think I'd rather experiment and have learned from a kiln load of bad pots and to move on that way. I think pushing things to the limit is what I enjoy, that kind of barrier between excellence and a disaster. You know, it's a very touch and go situation. And I kind of like to push things. And that's the drive for me personally in my work. And can you always tell whether you've got something which is wonderful or is in a way a sort of disaster? Because if you're experimenting, sometimes it takes time to be able to stand back and say, wow, that really works. Or no, actually, that was a blind alley and it didn't work. Exercising that critical faculty is not always that easy, is it? No, it's not. No. And with most wood firers, when they open up a kiln and see the results, usually it's the unexpected. It's not a failure. It's not what you were expecting. And it takes a while then. I need to just leave the pots and then come back in a couple of weeks time. And I'll be walking past and they're out in the yard all lined up how they came out the kiln. And every day I walk past. And you don't mean to look, but out of the corner of your eye you can see something. And eventually you begin to see, well, that's not so bad. And you pick it up and then, well, actually, I really like that bit. But it takes me two weeks before I can come to terms and see them for what they are. But I need to have that initial expectation, that vision when I'm packing the kiln. It starts when I'm making the pots and packing the kiln. There's always a vision of how that pot's going to look. And that builds up into your head. And of course, it looks nothing like that when you unpack the kiln. I'm very disappointed because it's totally different to the vision I had for that particular work. But then after a while, when you begin to see what they actually are, and that's the road, that's the learning process for me. I sort of half hope that we as the shopkeeper can assist that critical faculty process because we see so much and we are one removed. And sometimes we can say we think those are fantastic and maybe that area hasn't worked quite so well. I hope that we can add a little bit towards that. Indeed you do, yes. But it is wonderful to be watching and a great privilege for us to have been part of your journey because I've shown you three or four times now. And I think the pots just get better and better Well, having my work with you and your gallery and the wonderful staff you have there, you know, they work very hard and both promoting ceramics and you're all very knowledgeable of the process. And it's very kind of unusual to have a gallery who kind of works like this. When I was back to 1988, when I first started, I remember taking some pots to a gallery, I won't name it. And I had trouble getting there in my little mini pickup because of snow and off Dartmoor. And this lady had me unpack my pots on the floor behind the desk and she waited till I unpacked everything. And I said, Oh, no, I don't think we can sell that here. Thank you very much. And walked off. And, you know, my experience with you and your staff is completely the opposite. And it's very encouraging to work with you. And it gives me that inspiration. I want to produce the best I can. Yes. I like to think that our passion for shopkeeping and our passion for pots matches the passion of you great makers. I think that's really important. And it's why we put so much into it. And now, of course, your pots find homes all over the world. It's really extraordinary the way in which that works. So how long have you been where you are now? We moved here in 2000. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love it here, Mike, the little village, with five minutes walk up into town. And we have this little bit of ground here where I can, we can indulge ourselves in firing wood fired kilns. And it's quite a beautiful spot to be. And Dartmoor, you know, what better place to live? Yes. It kind of goes with me, my pots. You know, we have a very nice life and love it. I wouldn't want to do anything else or be anywhere else. That's absolutely fantastic. Well, the current show, and I think, I think we showed a walk around. Yes, I think on Friday, they're just prompting me because I'm getting old and I forget these things. On Friday, we showed a walk around of the exhibition. Because despite the fact that we can't trade normally, the show is laid out as though we were going to be able to. And you provided us with 300 and something pots. Terrific show. And I have to tell you that something like, I think nearly 100 have already found homes. Great. And the quality of what you've done is marvellous. I know whether we can see this. Yeah. Have you seen this yet? I haven't. I've seen that photograph, but I haven't seen the catalogue yet. Well, I'm not quite certain how Jay did it. Because he only had, I think, three days to go out and photograph all that he's done with Roger then to design this catalogue. Looks great. Absolutely, absolutely super. I think that's been, it's been lovely chatting. I enjoyed having that chat, actually. Good. And we have, you're hardly going to believe this, but we've now been talking for something like 40 minutes. Crikey. And I found that absolutely fascinating. Yep. Good. We're going to sell lots of these pots. They're going to find lots of new homes. Let's hope so. And I'm looking forward to seeing you in person again soon. Yep. Me too, Mike. Nick, many thanks indeed. Cheers, mate. Bye. Take care. Bye-bye.