Building Productive Relationships As A Career Strategy

Welcome, everyone. I am Kelly Sherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy here. We're glad to have you joining us for our Careers in Coffee conversation. So today's session is called Building Productive Relationships as a Career Strategy. We'll be discussing how communication, trust, and conflict navigation shape day-to-day work and long-term career success in higher education. We'll also explore how professionals can handle workplace challenges, repair any missteps, and strengthen their professional reputation through more intentional relationship building. So strong professional relationships, as we know, play a vital role in career growth. So we're excited to learn more about how higher ed professionals can build, maintain, and sustain productive working relationships across their teams and campus communities. So before I get into introducing our guests and we get into our conversation, I just want to go over a few housekeeping issues, some quick notes here. So if you have a question for our guest, please use the Q&A option to type in your question. Now our Assistant Director, Althea Jackson, will moderate the questions and she'll join us for the last 10-15 minutes of our webinar to ask Dan those questions. And then exciting news, when the session wraps up, we'll do a random drawing for a coffee gift card. So stay tuned for that and we'll send that after the session. So if you don't have an actual question for the guest, but you need to contact someone here at Higher Ed Jobs, you can leave, or if you want to share a comment or connect with someone watching, you can share a comment or connect with peers through the chat box. So in addition to Leah, we have some other Higher Ed Jobs team members that are behind the scenes and they'll help if needed. And then one last reminder, today's session is being recorded and it will be available soon on the Higher Ed Jobs YouTube channel. So with all of those notes out of the way, let's get into our conversation. So our guest today is Daniel B. Griffith. Dan, thanks so much for joining us today. Glad to be here. Yeah, looking forward to it. So Dan is a mediator, educator, lawyer, HR leader, and writer with more than 30 years of experience in conflict resolution across Higher Ed and other sectors. He specializes in mediation, negotiation, communication, and dialogue facilitation, and is the author of the new book, Everyday Mediator, Seven Practices for Navigating Conflict, and also a co-author of the Conflict Survival Kit and Supervisor's Survival Kit. He teaches mediation and dispute resolution courses at the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law and the IU O'Neill School of Public and Environmental Affairs, and currently serves as president of the Indiana Association of Mediators. And one of my favorite roles for you, Dan, is you're a long-time contributor to Higher Ed Jobs. So welcome again. Thank you for joining us. We're delighted to have you here. Thanks. Do we have time for questions now? It's a long, long bio. I know. I appreciate it. We just do a few things. So I had to list all those. So as we mentioned in your bio, Dan, you've spent decades mediating workplace and interpersonal conflicts. So for the Higher Ed professionals listening today, how can they think of navigating these productive relationships, not just as a soft skill or something extra or nice to have, but truly a core career strategy? Yeah. So, well, I guess I'll start. So among the things I do is I teach undergrads with the IU O'Neill School of Public and Environmental Affairs, teach courses in negotiation and alternative dispute resolution. And I just think about what I tell my students as a starting point. Since it's negotiation, I just say, you know, from day one, you're negotiators, you know, that it's not something that you should take lightly. It's something you develop, you're doing already. But this course that I teach is for you to get fortified and better and more confident in seeing how negotiation. So that's among the skills, obviously, conflict resolution, good listening, all these other things are so-called soft skills. But it really is your everyday life, your everyday work, whatever. You know, since you mentioned the book, thank you for that. I think about mediation skills, it's leadership skills, because practically in everyday situations, we have to do this, particularly for a manager or leader or another role. So I think too often we say soft skills, it's seen as something supplementing what we do when really the so-called soft skills are the actual work we do. So it's partly mindset is the big thing here is simply you're a negotiator, you're a mediator, you're a leader, you're a whatever it is. You have that, you do it, it's everyday, it's prominent in your work and treat it that way. And that's the starting point to move from this whole soft skill idea versus it being everything you do. I love that. And thank you for pointing out that we shouldn't just look at as supplemental or extra or like, oh, you know, soft skills, but it truly is critical, as you're saying, every day in the workplace. And I highly recommend people when they're, you know, maybe in a job interview to bring this up as well of how critical of a skill it is. So I know we've mentioned the book a little bit. So I want to ask you a little bit more about that. So in your book, you describe conflict as a natural part of life. It's a natural part of work and our relationships. So, you know, we're all at work, we deal with different personalities, different perspectives, different leadership styles. So how can some of the practices that you discussed in your book help our professionals approach conflict more constructively? Yeah. So the book itself is based on training I've done for years for professionals, HR, equity leaders, managers, you name it. In higher ed, I've done other sectors as well. So the practical approach is really helping to look at teams, look at relationships to be the person that's present for others to manage that. But within that, the book is, I think, helpful because it talks about good listening skills. And I think the broader question is being adaptable, being flexible, being in the moment. I mean, I think a lot is simply that we're successful when we see our role, when we step in and take that role, not in a way of saying, hey, I'm whoever, I'm here to help kind of thing, but more in the way of naturally you're the go-to person, the person seen as someone to be helpful in a lot of ways. Again, the book itself is about mediation skills and conflict resolution. So there's that, but the broader perspective here is how you take the role to support others in a lot of context. Yeah, thank you for that. I know we're talking about, like you said, supporting the bigger idea of building relationships and supporting others. So I want to kind of piggyback on some things that you were just saying there. So as we know, all of us on campus, we are often in our little bubble sometimes. We're in our department. We try not to be siloed on campus, but it happens. But we do, we have to work with different colleges, different leaders, different departments. So we're working in shared governance sometimes and obviously are forced, not in a bad way, I don't mean forced like you have to, but like collaborating with, again, like we were saying, different personalities and different styles. So what are some ways professionals can navigate some of these differences? Because like I said, we're in our bubble and we might be comfortable with our core department, but maybe we do have to deal with a different personality over in the other part of the campus. So what are some tips that you have for professionals? Well, so there's a lot there, of course, but that's part of it. But I think one thing is you use the word collaboration and the need to collaborate across differences, so across to another unit or what have you. So the starting point is, I guess, recognizing that, well, defining what collaboration is, I guess, is a starting point. When I think of a situation way back in the work I did, we worked for a unit and there was sort of a larger unit we sort of had to work with and they had more control and more power, let's say. And the message implicitly coming back to us is that we were not collaborators. And what we learned over time was it's based on because we weren't doing it their way. That's bottom line. And it was actually sent in some very dysfunctional ways, that message. So I might start there to think about we need to collaborate, but what is the benefit for them? What's the benefit for us? How do we first define the need we have of each other? How do we have that conversation? So I think those are some of the things there. So obviously, underlying that that mindset of collaboration is about, I need to not just present my view, not present my need and expect compliance. I need to, yes, express my need, but at the same time, understand that there's a mutuality here and how can I understand your need? How can we talk that through? How can we commit to a way that's mutually beneficial and also the larger goal? Of course, in a university setting or any employment setting, it shouldn't just be our needs and what we want to do in our unit, nor yours in our unit, but the broader goal is how we're supporting the institution in some way. So defining those things are going to be important. If you start there, that idea of what collaboration is, that clearly what you're intending to do, what the need is, confirming with others that we share goals or identifying what it is, I think it just leads from there to understand why I've got to be a good listener, good negotiator to look at effectively to meet each of our needs, a good problem solver and working together on that. So there's a lot there. I'm sure there's another question I have that would respond to this, but also recognizing that we're open to their viewpoint or what we're doing that may be affecting it and correcting it along the way. So there's a lot there. I absolutely love your idea of defining those shared goals, because I think that's a key issue, because like you're saying, we all have our perspectives and our views and I want this and you should do this. And if you don't, then you're wrong. And then we're at a stalemate of where are we going to go from here? So I think that's critical to whatever, it's getting in a room together, if it's having a Zoom, however the mode is. So when I say mindset, and since I'm going back to even negotiation being a big part of what I teach and those sort of things, even the last thing you were saying there is sometimes the viewpoint of what negotiating is, what a negotiator does is this aggressive adversarial, all for me kind of thing, my needs and how we posture ourselves to do that. There's all kinds of messages around that. So just to be clear, when I say negotiating is among the skills, it is really what we call interest-based negotiation, the process of I want to express to you, here's what I need, here's the concerns I have. At the same time, I want to understand what your needs are. And some of that message is also recognizing the best way for our needs to be met, your needs to be met, or my needs to be met is for meeting your needs as well, and that kind of conversation. So it's really a crucial skill to add to that. Well, thank you for adding that on. As you're talking there, I was wondering, do you think one of the biggest challenges is sometimes that people forget to see or be open-minded about other people's perspective? Is that when this conflict or this not being able to build a relationship is because you forget that the other person has a perspective too? Yes. Bottom line, I think that I guess for anyone listening, just understanding when you've had conflict and what it is, and now there's good conflict. In other words, we shouldn't run from conflict, see it as an opportunity for better outcomes, but we have to treat it in the right way. We have to manage it effectively. But that's the problem with conflict resolution issues is that we often don't. I mean, we start with this perception that it's going to be hard. We talk ourselves out of it, or we say we have to overcome because we perceive the other side being adversarial themselves or just likely at odds. We haven't talked, we haven't communicated, we haven't listened to each other, but we're assuming that somehow there's not compatible needs. That's generally not to correct, but we have that stance accordingly. We expect resistance back, and that's where things sort of fall apart. That's how we got in conflict in the first place. My needs aren't being met, bottom line. I'm not thinking about yours, don't care about yours, and that's where things start sort of unraveling from the beginning. If we don't address it and get to some better ways to talk about it, it escalates, and we get even more entrenched. So absolutely, this idea of mindset, not collaborating, not looking across and who we're talking about, the human behind the conflict, that really sets us up for problems to really effectively manage the conflict. I love the fact that you brought up the distinction between the definition of conflict. There can be good functional conflict, and there's obviously bad dysfunctional conflict. If we're approaching the conversation, the relationship building, the conflict is like, this could be a fantastic brainstorming session where we come out with better ideas, and kind of like you were saying, it's a win for me, but then also, oh, I'm meeting your needs and it's a win for them. That's fantastic. I love the point that you said, getting to know the person. It's not just, you don't have to go in being close-minded and this is going to be a fight or adversarial type of approach. That's really important to take a step back and say, maybe we can work on this together to build a relationship to get what we both want, but then also, like you're saying, for the ultimate goal of helping the institution, the students, the community. Real quickly, I guess, when you know you have to address something with someone in a conflict, and I'm just going to go back even when I, so in my class, even with my students, I do do a lot of role plays and practices. I say over and over, it's like, you don't have to jump right in and start negotiating and make demands. Spend some time listening and understanding each other. Of course, they don't do that. They're not listening to even me, imagine, but the idea is simply that you can have conversation to address the situation. You could take the time to say, hey, there's an issue we need to talk about. It's important. I know we don't have a full agreement on this. Can we sit down? Maybe it doesn't have to be across the formal table at work versus a coffee or whatever it is, and just say, hey, how's it going? Some chit-chat along the way. Understand, and when you finally get into it, say, Kelly, I'd like to understand what your concerns are. We've been at odds with this, and I want a workable solution, but I want to spend time listening to you. I think I have some things to learn here. I would say, too, a key skill, and I'm going to tie into the seven habits of highly effective people in the best books around, the seek, first understand, then be understood. If I think that you're struggling with understanding me, and you're not maybe inclined to be as collaborative as I am, first of all, I know you are, you yourself, but as an example, that I say, well, Kelly, I really understand where you're coming from, your perspective. I really want to feel that not only that I understand what your concerns are, but I want you to feel that I understand what your perspectives are. Typically, if you're not as inclined as I might be in that whole seek, first understand, then be understood, what is so important is that if I'm modeling that, and at the end of the conversation, at that end of things, that you're feeling that, oh, Dan's trying to understand me, and I may still disagree with me, but he's trying to understand me, then I say, well, then you mind me sharing my concerns, and you may already be picking up, oh, what can I afford Dan in that opportunity as I was just afforded? I just love that whole process of thinking, seeking, first understand, then be understood in terms of that, the model of coming to understanding what the conflict is before we try to solve it. Yeah. I love that. Great, great advice. And yeah, great, great, great book too. So I know we've kind of, I know you've talked about some tips surrounding this, but I'll go into this question in a way, and actually we got a similar question in advance from one of our attendees, but it has to deal with trust. And I'm just wondering, you know, obviously you've coached and to, you know, facilitate workshops over the years, what specific communication habits, you know, besides what you just mentioned there about, you know, trying to listen first, but what communication habits tend to build trust and your professional reputation over time? I mean, obviously it can't happen overnight, especially if you somehow break trust, it definitely can't like be repaired overnight, but what are some, you know, techniques you have for that? Well, again, I think a lot of what I shared covers that, but I think it's consistency in that. It's the idea that, you know, you demonstrate the same kind of character, reputation, credibility along the way, you demonstrate that you're a trustworthy person just by your actions and, you know, following through, your words are consistent with your actions, you say you'll do what you'll do, and you do as you said you would. You, doesn't mean you won't make mistakes, doesn't mean you won't forget, doesn't mean you won't at times step over a line, but it's also recognizing that it may have happened. So, you know, whether it's an apology, whether it's a matter of, hey, you know what, had a bad day, you know, when you leave the relationship in kind of a vacuum, you know, that, you know, you just assume something about, you know, oh, I said this, I did that, and they'll be okay, they won't misunderstand me, and you don't see, sort of get a sense that, well, maybe I need to get back and correct a misunderstanding or make sure they understood or whatever it is. So, you're doing those sort of things to always make sure you're consistent with what you intend or that you acknowledge when maybe you've not, you've sort of stepped out of it and just want to come back to addressing in a different fashion. So, whatever that is, you know, the, you know, good positive communication skills, good collaborative mindsets, so on top of that is consistently trying to do that and reinforcing it where you can. I love your advice about being consistent. I think that's so important. I mean, obviously, we often, you know, talk about here at Higher Edge Apps, you know, being authentic and, you know, you don't want to, like you were saying, say one thing and then not do it, and you don't want to do it, like be a different person around different people or different groups, you know, like you So, being authentic, being consistent is great. You kind of touched on, like, where I was going next, and, you know, we were saying that, you know, before that, you know, conflicts and misunderstandings happen all the time. I mean, sometimes they could be intentional, sometimes, oftentimes they're very, like, oh, I didn't mean to say that, I didn't mean to do that, or like you were saying, like, I had a bad day and I took it out on them. So, if we do make a mistake or, you know, we do make a misstep, you know, I think you were saying, like, don't just, like, assume that, oh, they'll get over it. Do you have other, you know, building on what you were just saying, like, do you have other ideas that people can do to kind of repair that relationship and credibility so they know that maybe I just didn't have a bad day? Yeah. So, a couple of things. First of all, I think if you have developed a good relationship and it is just a bad day, then it's just a bad day, you know, and that, you know, we've established trust to say that's not consistent for Dan's behavior. And again, I might see that then come back to you. So, there's that level of trust that, you know, you fortify the trust when you do have a bad day, you're just not into it, you're just, whatever it is that's maybe a little off-putting or whatever, that can take care of a lot just by that. But I do think it's a matter of, again, I guess repeating, but the consistent approach to this. And I think it's a matter that, you know, when you have that level of trust up front, then you're good to go and just have to check in. When trust is violated, that's where you need to recognize it's maybe not just the words and coming back, it's also the time and to prove it over time. You know, I guess I've had situations where inadvertently, I hope, where I said or did something where I then perceived I had lost some trust with somebody. And I dwelled on that a lot. But typically when it was a work relationship, someone I had to continue working with, I recall a situation where I just had to sit down and I misperceived a and the person I was working with corrected me in that misperception and I felt badly. And I processed it a little bit, but also an understanding of moving forward. So it wasn't overnight that somehow I had improved that relationship. But it was by consistently doing, as I said, what I'm doing or continuing in that relationship, establishing over time that I'm working hard to not just the relationship, but the work I'm doing, that I am trustworthy. And it felt not too long after that, whatever that worry was I had, whatever the situation was, went by the wayside, it was forgotten. So I think it's that kind of relationship repair that we need to focus on and think about and recognize it's not just going to be words, just saying something, of course, that's important, but also what we demonstrate beyond that. Yeah, those are some thoughts. Thanks. So I want to move in a little bit a different direction and take out conflict for a little bit, take out mistakes or missteps. And think about a person on campus, maybe they're new to their role, they're new to higher ed, maybe they're not, they've been there for a while. We get these types of questions a lot from our audience regarding how do I kind of move up and navigate, move up into a different role or navigate across campus? How do I build relationships with someone who might be obviously above me in terms of their role? Sometimes people are getting nervous, so they have the idea that like, oh, I can't talk to them because I might say the wrong thing. Give some practical advice of building relationships with people who, like if you see the president in the elevator, like he or she is just a person, but sometimes it's like, it's intimidating. So do you have ideas of how to build those relationships on campus? Well, I guess, so first of all, with the president person in charge, I myself have not always felt comfortable, honestly, in the university where I worked for years, retired now. But I think at times it's like it felt awkward because I didn't interact with them at all. But I think fundamentally, even those situations, there is a human being there for the most part, maybe exception, but the human being that I'm working with or that's in charge, someone that it's just another person. So it's easier said than done. So there's that. You don't have to overthink that conversation to just say hello. Sometimes they'll ask you a question. Sometimes they'll engage with you because of course that's sometimes their role. There's that level. But obviously I think in the day-to-day, it's not always the top of the chart that we're engaging with, but just others. When I heard some of your question, I think it's particularly if you're thinking about, how do I do this to get my next opportunity? How do I do this to be considered for whatever comes next? And I have observed, I feel sometimes people burn out quickly, or the people who burn out quickly are those who quickly seem they need to position themselves. They need to assert themselves. They need to communicate in some way, maybe not in words so much, but hey, here I am, you need to consider me for what's next, whatever that is. And I just think that's not a good way of doing it. Going back to even the prior conversation we've had is simply, what are you demonstrating? What are you showing? What are you doing? If you don't have a collaboration, well, there's the opportunity to potentially look across to some future opportunities because you like the work they're doing, whoever they are across the campus, whatever. Well, you don't just go, hey, where's the next job? Of course, we all have jobs posted and we can look at hiring jobs for that. But it's more like two things maybe. One comes to mind is like we do externally, networking. The idea is like, hey, I'm interested in the work you're doing. I'd like to learn more. Could we have coffee? Could I meet? I'm just curious about the work you do, some things I'm thinking about. So not looking for a job in hand, but that conversation. And I think these are things that probably higher jobs folks know all about in terms of just how to do this. Well, there's no difference than institutionally. The other thing is when you have the opportunity to work with a department or with somebody or do something different, well, then do the work. Then do that first. Do engage in whatever you need to meet the needs with whoever you're working with and demonstrate that and show that versus talking about what you've done. The more you're seeing that, the more that might come to pass that you'll be considered for those. So I don't know if that's answering all your questions, but I think that's the idea is simply going back to relationship building. It's simply if you're all about sort of me, all about what I can do to advance myself and keep pushing and I'm not moving fast enough and those sort of things, I'm not sure. There's exceptions. I'm not sure that's what wins the day for being considered for whatever that next opportunity is. I agree. That's really well said. And I like the idea of, like you said, networking even on campus and finding out what others do and authentically being yourself and complimenting them on something maybe that you know that they've done on campus. Reaching out to someone for advice. I think as humans, we all kind of like to be like, oh, wow, they think I know something. It's a compliment to have someone reach out to be like, you're saying you want to sit down and have coffee. I was wondering if we could talk about X, Y, Z, but not with that. Like you're saying like that, it's about me. I want to try to get that next job or kind of move. So learning and being authentic, but then also trusting the process of taking authentic steps. Right. I don't know. I think higher ed gets the reputation of moving a little slower than other sectors. So I think add a good dose of patience with some of that. I think sometimes, particularly those newer to higher ed come in and have expectations of moving more quickly. And I don't think that's realistic in many higher ed positions. I'm not sure it's realistic in corporate, frankly, but certainly not in higher ed. So I think partly that is that too. And I think also when you think about it is what does movement mean? What does advancement mean? Is there not meaningful next steps in your current position or ways to think that through that just position you better for the next opportunity versus being too impatient or ready to move on? We all like to move on. We all feel sometimes I've been in this too long or whatever. So I mean, there's some additional thoughts come to mind. So thank you for that. So I want to move over to a question about some maybe dispelling some myths or misconceptions. Are there anything that are there any misconceptions or myths that you wanted to share regarding relationship building in higher ed? I think I mean, partly what I answered before is how you have the conversation, what's needed there. Maybe one thought going back to the comment about the president in the elevator, that kind of thing. Maybe there's misconceptions about power. First of all, power is real, but misperceptions about position, maybe that's a better word, is somehow that people aren't approachable. Or again, our audience I'm sure has a mix of those in faculty roles, some in staff roles, and a perception that somehow certain people in certain positions are holier than thou, that kind of thing. Or tenure and there is positions and they don't have time. So I mean, I think there are people like that, let's be clear. But I think that may be exceptions because what I found is, again, I was in a staff role, although I have taught for years in an adjunct faculty role, but I found that faculty are human too and that they're willing to talk and there's good conversations. I had friendships there and those sort of things. So I don't know if that might be a misperception, but it's simply don't overthink the position. Don't overthink the title or somehow a certain level of tenure that they're in and somehow they're unapproachable. That may be particularly early on as you're joining in a position. And typically, since we do talk a lot and more so in other sectors, I think, in terms of doctor so-and-so and how we title people and all that. And that's also, I think, an issue. Frankly, it's simply when we introduce one another and there's formal settings and things like that, of course, we want to appropriately title each other, not just doctor, by the way, but if someone doesn't have that, then Mr. or Mrs. or whatever, that's important too. Sometimes that's overlooked, I'll be honest. But underneath that is the idea that, hey, this is Fred, this is June, this is whatever, and we can talk at that level because that's the relation we can establish and no one thinks twice about it. So don't overthink that position. Don't overthink that somehow that's this unapproachable sort of thing. So I had another thought, but it escaped me, but that kind of idea as a one is simply that there's a lot of good people out there, friendly people, helpful people, approachable people. I think that's the norm in higher ed. I think that we can feel comfortable when we need to talk to someone. And I would include even the president or the higher level if you want to talk to them because maybe you have an idea, maybe you would like input. It's not like we'll get on our calendar immediately, but probably not talk to them directly to say, hey, can we meet, but just say with a purposeful mindset to say, I want to learn something and I want to offer something and have an idea what that is. And there's no reason that in the right context, you couldn't have that connection if it's important to you. So I wouldn't use that connection by saying, and by the way, do you have a job for me? So let's go back to my conversation. I respect the right levels of engagement in that regard. But yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love I love the advice about like, you know, not not overthinking it and like kind of obviously respecting the title, using it when it's necessary and appropriate. But but but yeah, at the end of the day, again, we keep saying this, we're we're all humans, we're people. And, you know, trying to to, you know, approach people with with how you would want to be treated is kind of, you know, a good mindset. So yeah. And I know I when I when I was on campus, you know, sometimes, you know, faculty didn't want to talk to admin and admin like we're like, but we can all be friends. We really can. We're all there for the same, you know, shared purpose at the end of the day. So like you said, there's some fantastic and most most most people are fantastic, fantastic and, you know, lovely to interact with. Well, I'll add to that. I mean, I guess, you know, so I want to maybe the other comment I came to mind was the idea that, again, if you're newer to higher ed, the perception that, you know, whether it's a matter of pay or some other things like I'm just not getting what I what I would incorporate or in some other area, you're also not getting the headaches in your in many terms, you're getting more security, job security, more consistency, those sort of things. And I think the other thing in my experience is among them, that hanging around in higher ed, let's just say that sticking to it and purposely looking for opportunity may surprise you into some other things that may happen for you, some other opportunities. Again, it depends on role, but for myself, I was able to negotiate full time work and then teach on the side. That's just my example. But the point is, is we can assume there's not opportunity and even that somehow not financially viable financial viability when it's just not true, whether you're going to make, you know, oodles of money compared to some other positions, maybe not, but there's a lot of value. And I think a lot of people do stick around higher ed, it's relationships, it's connection, it's it's creativity in certain places that are offered, whereas maybe you don't see that in some other sectors. So there's a lot of people I've known who stuck around for those things and see value and also make a good living. So, yeah. Well, thank you for adding that on. So I just wanted to Dan, you mentioned the word power earlier, and I just wanted to make a little comment here before we get into the Q&A section. And, you know, remiss not to mention that we understand that that not every relationship is like fantastic and easy to navigate. And there is definitely toxic relationships. There's power struggles, there's bullying. And I know you've written on those topics before for us, and we've linked those in the in the resource section for people to look at. So check those out from Dan, because I know we could we could probably have a whole entire another, you know, webinar on these toxic and sometimes unhealthy relationships. So I just want to acknowledge that I want to say that we completely understand that this is a real thing. We're not dismissing it. So but yeah, check out Dan's articles, Dan, I don't know, I mean, if you want to say something quick, you're welcome to before Q&A, but I just wanted to like, make sure people knew that we we understand that happens. Well, briefly, I mean, you know, even going back to, you know, the title of my book, Everyday Mediator, Seven Practices for Navigating Conflict. So navigating. So I think that's the main thing is I by no means to minimize the difficulties people are going through. But it is sort of a, there's a lot of things around that. And yes, there's, there's politics, there's care in which how you approach it. But I do believe, you know, there's ways to navigate that situation to get support you need the conversation you have to at least start problem solving. I'm not saying overnight will be addressed. I'm not saying that there's not things that are going to be very difficult to overcome. But I do feel that, well, let's just say responsible organizations, and I know that that itself could be an issue is, you know, just keep navigate, keep having those conversations, find the ways to work around to, to start addressing concerns. Some organizations have an ombuds, as an example, whatever it is, I do believe there's solutions out there in long term. If not, if it's really a dysfunctional organization, broadly stated, we need to also recognize that and find our way and find the right exit strategy. So I'll leave it at that. But I know we've minimized those issues as well, as you navigate your work situation. So, yeah, well, thank you for adding that on. And like I said, if people are interested, please check out Dan's article. And obviously, Dan, I mean, I know this is not a commercial for your book by any means, like, like, make sure that, you know, if you can take a chance, take a take a look at, you know, Dan's book to see if there's topics and, you know, tactics that can apply to your workplace. So. So now I think we're going to switch over to our Q&A. So Leah has been gathering some, some questions from our live audience. And we also had a couple questions from people before. So, Leah, what do you have for us? Thank you, Kelly. We've got several listener questions. So we'll see what we can get through before the end here. So Dan, I'll start right away with this one. We've talked a lot about how we as professionals can build healthy relationships, navigate workplace dynamics, and approach our careers with confidence. Someone is asking about how we can help students do that as well. Yeah. So, so again, I, I'm fortunate to teach students. So, again, so years of work, working with staff, but at the same time doing adjunct teaching, I can, even though I retired full time, I continue to teach at IU as an adjunct. So, so, so I'll go back to my teaching undergrads. And I teach graduate level too, but particularly undergrads to think about it is simply going back to my earlier comments is simply reinforce that the skills you're learning are practical skills, things that you can build on, things that you innately do, but we're just giving some more structure to that. So the more you make them realize that these skills and this development is important and why it matters and why it's not just, again, for a class environment, not just to get a grade, but to, to translate to career, to the future. So, I mean, I think that the more we can, it's not just negotiating other skills of what we do, but the more we have opportunities to share those skills and develop those skills and students and maybe modeling ourselves, depending on what kind of role we're talking about in terms of supporting students, the more we're helping them see what success can be and how they can achieve it. You know, maybe it's the right models of that. So when I think negotiation, I've heard, you heard me talk about earlier, it's not about an adversarial approach, but a collaborative approach. Maybe the other thing is I, again, I don't know the basis of the question where it may be coming from, but of course the other thing is where we are employing students in our offices. So, you know, that's the best opportunity to develop students and also support their academic achievement because they're in the work and then they're also learning. Well, show them the ropes of the work, show them why it matters. I mean, again, I think one thing is students have misconception perhaps about what day-to-day work is and just that it can be a grind, but it's also going to be enlightening and learning and those sort of things. So what can we do just day-to-day to show here's the work, being transparent, not hiding things from them in terms of, you know, how to get the work done, maybe going back even to expecting students to make mistakes and that being okay, particularly if you're one of your employees to simply say, well, here's what we can do differently. Here's what you can learn from it versus something more negative. So those are some things that come to mind. I'm sure after the call, some other things may come to mind, but there's some initial thoughts. That was great. Thank you, Dan. Moving on to our next question. This listener is asking, how do you create authentic, productive relationships that don't seem transactional? I think we all feel that from time to time. So you can shed some light on that. Well, if you're, you know, I think of this, you know, we don't use this term too much anymore, but it used to be in supervisor training. We used the word of like producing widgets that, you know, the idea of the job is making widgets, whatever a widget is. And so, so if we treat the job that it, all it is, is about whatever those widgets are. And whereas, you know, here's my job, here's what I do and working with someone that on the same team, here's what I expect them to do. You, you meet that need and I'll get that done. And we don't otherwise deal with it. That's transactional. That's just, you know, if that's how we see the job. Now there's a lot here, by the way, obviously it's what we see, but of course, if leadership creates an environment, that's, that in itself is a problem. But again, I, I, when I think about moving to transactions and more transformational, it could be as simple as how we treat thing, treat each other in the morning. Good morning. How we say common courtesies. Thank you. How we just take a few minutes to talk about how their day was, if they're open to it, talk about how the evening was or what they did over the weekend. And, and from a leadership perspective, it's not just here, do this, but here, do this. And here's why that matters. Oh, and by the way, I have another opportunity for you to do, which is beyond just this work, but I want to encourage you to, to, to think about this other project. You're the right person for it. Let me know. I can help you. So again, all the conversations we need to have about the work, why it matters about how we work as a team moves it to less transactional work. By the way, even if some of our work in and of itself is transactional, some, some of us have to do a lot of forms and, you know, always on the computer or things like that, that's very transactional work. It doesn't mean it has to be a transactional workplace, I guess. I love that, Dan. I think, you know, really getting to know the people that you're working with and treating them like a person first, as opposed to just a colleague. That's, that's great. So our next question is, as leaders, we often talk about the importance of productive relationships, but culture is shaped by what leaders model. What are some practical ways leaders can intentionally model healthy conflict resolution and relationship building so that it becomes part of the team culture rather than just an individual skill? So in all the work I've done, I mean, one reason I'm, I kept, kept employed, I guess, is because many leaders didn't have the right mindset skills or what have you. And so they'd come to me to help work this out. Of course, I see conflict resolution in terms of helping me, helping solve those issues, whether it's mediation or other kinds of conflict resolution processes. It's not just resolving today's problem. It's what we can learn from resolving today's problem for the future. So, so among the things that I see leaders, the deficits, I suppose, is not wanting to engage conflict, not wanting to avoid it. Again, it's a significant leadership skill is to manage conflict, but a lot of them avoid it. So if they come to me, I'm going to say, okay, I'll work, help you. We'll do some coaching. We get to fortify you with some skills, whatever, but you in the future will need to think about how you approach this. So that's one, is that, I think the other thing is, is how we look at team, how we send the message that, by the way, we should say, we have conflict in this team. Say it to the people we're hiring. We have conflict in this team. That doesn't mean it's a negative. It's simply, but we manage conflict in a way that we can talk it through. We maintain respect. I insist on it. It's something that I try to model for the team, something I see us do in team meetings all the time. When I say we have conflict, it's because we embrace that as a matter of looking at strong disagreements, allowing strong disagreements, talking it through thoroughly, and then moving to finding solutions that hopefully encompass the best of all of us. So again, this idea of that team leader and all that. A final comment there is to recognize is, when I think perhaps some people think about conflict and unmanaged conflict, they may think in terms of what people are shouting at each other and strenuous argumentation. Of course, that happens. What I think we're more in danger of is not raising conflict at all, is suppressing it. You could look in a team meeting where it's like, no one speaks up. No one argues. No one has a voice. There you have a leadership problem that needs to flip that switch and say, we need to bring it up and we need to create the right environment so people can bring it up. Again, that's a lot on the shoulders of the leader, but it's also what they need to think about, how they need to develop themselves. Of course, another deficit is leaders come into those roles without leadership training. So finding that training so they can come back and handle conflict and many other things more effectively. Thanks, Dan. I think this topic is resonating with people because we've gotten a couple of questions now related to leaders. So I might throw a couple of these in quick. We have a question about, do you have suggestions for a leader that doesn't want employee feedback? I know that's probably a big one. I do. Interesting. So it's not uncommon. Well, again, going back to my previous comment, it's simply, what is a leader? What are you hired to do? And so if I could talk to that leader, it'd be, I'm not sure anyone likes feedback, but it is part of what we all expect. And honestly, in a work environment, we're the leader, we're the supervisor, we're the manager. And if we're expected to give feedback and we're doing that feedback, then is it not fair to receive feedback in return? I mean, in all fairness though, I would say it's also how we look at feedback, how we handle feedback. So I might wonder about this leader in terms of some maybe legitimate reasons why they're hesitant because of experience. I mean, I can imagine leaders having their own experience of negative feedback and therefore they're reluctant even to give feedback to others other than the most positive and not finding a way to appropriately bring up less positive information while still being supportive. So there's a lot of modeling they haven't received. So I may be a little bit empathetic to that situation if they're understanding what the purpose of feedback is, what those experiences are. And I guess the question is whether or not that leader can go to the appropriate source. Maybe it's a professional development, organization development, and whatever human resources department within the school, whatever it is, to be able to freely talk about, here's some things I'm going through and I don't need a more effective leader, I just need some guidance. And I'm not sure we're handling how we evaluate things appropriately. I can't fairly evaluate when I'm feeling as I do in the culture we have. How can we change that? So I'm going to be a little empathetic as well as asking that leader to really think about the need to get feedback and to be accepting of it. Can I just build on that a little bit? And this might be a hard question to answer, but maybe a leader doesn't recognize they need guidance. So for those team members that are like, I can't, I don't feel comfortable talking to him or her, I can't bring anything up, or and this could probably be a whole other webinar, but I know you mentioned the ombudsman person on campus. Are there immediate channels, I guess, they could, an employee could go, do they talk to HR? I don't want to say just run and quit, but I'm sure some people are feeling like, ah, stop, because they might love their job and love the community, but just have a hard time communicating with their boss. So in terms of what an employee can do is, I think we need to have, HR is one, but not just ombuds or other units that we have on campus. So helping employees be successful, I'm thinking even could be employee assistance, other avenues. But the mindset is like, I'm not trying to navigate the situation, I've got a boss who's not open, I need to talk to him, and I need to find a way to do it without getting myself in trouble. So it's those kinds of conversations. So I would say one though is recognizing that if there's a problem we're having, we need to confront the person with whom we're having that problem. But I think we don't think about how to do that effectively. So I'm not going to excuse that employee who needs to mention to their supervisor that, hey, I need feedback, or here's what I'm seeing. But I will say that there's an appropriate approach to do that. Hopefully there's good coaching that someone could get to do that. Again, throwing out book titles, but one I use a lot or talk about a lot is called Crucial Conversations, tools for talking when stakes are high, but the models of confronting in a way that minimizes that defensiveness. So the bottom line is if we all need to develop the skills to approach the troubles we're having with somebody else, but we can do it in a way that doesn't have to be overly negative, that can manage defensiveness, and can make it a professional conversation versus a venting session or a shutdown kind of thing where we're not getting anywhere. There's skills to learn, not overnight, but there's ways to approach these things. Thank you, Dan. That book was called Crucial Conversations? Crucial Conversations, tools for talking when stakes are high. That's a great resource. So it's just an excellent book in terms of those kinds of conversations. To confront a concern you have with someone in a professional manner and minimize their defensiveness. So it's that model, yeah. Yeah, I think do we have time or do we have one more question? Yeah, we can do one more quick. And I'm sorry, this is probably another big one, Dan, so I apologize in advance. How do you build trust when it has been eroded in the organization? Any quick tips for that? Quick tips, yeah, good. Solve the world's problems in one minute, go. So well, as a starting point, recognize you can't rebuild trust over time. I don't know how that question might be phrased or what we're looking at. We're looking broadly at the institution or we're looking at the pockets in which we work. So we can't maybe change. I think about that kind of issue, maybe because of the work I've done a lot. Unfortunately, some of the work I do is working with units within a school or a larger institution versus the institution itself. And so it's that coping. It's that pocket of what could be pocket of good productivity, good cooperation, good spirits in a world around us that's not so positive. So obviously, at the more micro level, rebuilding trust may be a little bit easier than the whole system. So obviously, if you're that supervisor, person in charge, you violated that trust and recognize that that's a longer haul to overcome. But maybe you're a new person coming in and you have a chance to change the dynamic and change the relationships and understand what's gone on before. So if you're that new supervisor, that new manager coming in, even if it's a dysfunctional team, let's say, part is because of where they've been through. They're not going to trust you automatically, but obviously, how you talk with them, communicate with them, work with them, creating a new environment. And I would say that can happen even in those pockets, even if the overall world that you serve within may be of all kinds of dysfunctional things going on. So those are some initial thoughts. Well, thanks, Dan. Yes, thanks, Dan. Thanks, Leah, for jumping in with our questions. And thank you to all the people that are attending today and their questions and the questions in advance. So I really enjoyed our conversation today, Dan. I hope all of our listeners and viewers have learned something today. And then those watching in the future will also take away some great things. So again, we appreciate it. And thank you, everyone, for joining. And we look forward to seeing everyone, hopefully, at our next Careers in Coffee conversation. So enjoy the rest of your day, everyone, and take care. Thanks again, Dan. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Really enjoyed the conversation. And just one last note, there's a link to Dan's book if anyone's interested in checking that out. So take care, everyone. Okay. Bye-bye.