John Skelton murder prelim: Retired FBI agent testifies

For the purposes of the record, may I have you give me your first and last name? My name is Kelly Liberty. Okay, and can you spell that for the record? Sure, Kelly with a Y, Liberty, L-I-B as in Lloyd, E-R-T-I. Do you sound like you swear to kill him? I do. You may inquire. Thank you, Your Honor. Ms. Liberty, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. We're here on the John Skelton matter, and I understand you had a significant role in that, is that correct? I did. So before we get into that, tell us a little bit about where you were employed at in 2010, and we'll get into your background a little bit after that, okay? Sure. In 2010, I was a special agent with the FBI working out of the Cleveland division in Ohio. And tell us about your educational background, your training background, prior to 2010. Sure. So I have a Bachelor of Science degree in journalism from Ohio University, and I attended the FBI Academy in 1995. I was assigned to Cleveland in 1996, and spent my entire career there. While I was in Cleveland, I received training as a crisis negotiator, and as a member of the FBI's Child Abduct and Rapid Deployment team. And for purposes of our discussion here, that's often referred to by its acronym, which is? CARD, yes. C-A-R-D, C-A-R-D? C-A-R-D, CARD, right. How long were you with the FBI for? 23, a little over 23 years. And when did you leave the FBI? In March of 2019, I retired. And what has been your continued professional experience since that time? When I retired, I worked for a child advocacy center for three years for Lorain and Huron Counties here in Ohio. So I conducted forensic interviews of children and adolescents, and sometimes young adults, for approximately three years. After that, I went back into investigative work and do investigations now for schools and educational facilities. I also consult for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and I teach for Fox Valley, teaching child abduction investigations. Now, prior to 2010, you had a background, a training experience in the area of forensic interviewing. Is that correct? I did. Tell us about that and specifically how you came to be one of the interviewers in this situation. So I received forensic interview training from the FBI. It was a two-week course conducted by the FBI to get certified because I was on the C.A.R.D. team, and so many of our cases involved interviewing children, interviewing siblings, you know, when children go missing, interviewing friends, kids in the neighborhood. So I received that training in 2010, and then I also, I certified through the state of Ohio as well, through the state's program. In 2010, as a member of the C.A.R.D. team, when we deployed, we deployed as a team, and everyone gets assigned different roles. In this particular matter, my team leader assigned me to conduct the interview with Mr. Skelton. Your Honor, at this time and for the purpose of the exam, we would move to have her admitted as an expert in the area of forensic interviewing. Your Honor, the people did give me an extensive CV. I will stipulate for preliminary exam purposes, but just go through my notes, Judge. I just want the record to reflect. I may do a Dober hearing, should this matter be balanced over. Thank you. So do you recall the first day that you became involved in this? The first day I became involved in this was the, it was right after Thanksgiving. In 2010, we received a deployment notice from the headquarters, and as part of the team, when you receive that, you respond, and go home, pack up your bags, and hit the road. So I believe that was on Saturday, the 27th, we were activated, and we all arrived there at different points that evening. And you interviewed, discussed this matter with Mr. Skelton on November 28th and November 29th. Is that correct? That is correct. Now, in advance of that interview with him, what preparation did you do? How did you become involved in the situation, become aware of what was going on? Well, we reported to the command post on Saturday. We were briefed by the case agent. We were briefed by the SAC, the Special Agent-in-Charge, the SAC, of what had happened, what had gone on. We were briefed on any interviews that had been done, everything that had taken place up until this time. So we were caught up on everything that had happened to that point and into the next day. So during those interviews on the 28th and 29th, or at least the 28th, the decision was made to have Pastor Donna Galloway and John's friend, Mark Pilbeam, available at the hospital. Is that correct? Yes. And why was that? I believe Mark was a very good friend of John's, and Pastor Donna was his pastor. And from what we had been told, John was very church-going, he was religious, he attended church, and this was somebody who had influence and somebody that he respected their opinion. So you were fully updated, you were aware of the divorce, the child custody situation, the Joanne Taylor allegations, all of those things, correct? Yes. And in advance of talking or discussing this with Mr. Skelton, were you also involved with what's called your BAU group? Right, that's Behavioral Analysis Unit, or as some people refer to it from popular media, the profilers. So our Behavioral Analysis Unit usually sends two people to deploy with CART, and those folks were onsite as well. So you had conversations with them, discussions with them as well as how to approach this? Yes. And that would have all occurred on November 27th or the morning of November 28th? That was ongoing. Okay. So on November 28th, at some point in time, a decision is made to go in and attempt to talk to him, is that correct? Yes. Tell us what happens. Well, on the 28th, the first interview that was done with Special Agent Mike Glennon and Pastor Donna, I was not part of that interview, but I was able to listen to it. And then I talked with Mr. Skelton later that day. And what came from that interview? Tell us how that proceeded and what happened. I'm gonna check my notes if that's okay with you. Absolutely. Thank you, thank you. So one of the first things when I went in, you know, Mr. Skelton had already been speaking with Donna and with Special Agent Glennon. When I went in and introduced myself, one of the things that we wanted to do right off the bat was let Mr. Skelton know that the evidence we had collected, everything that we had found so far, pointed to the fact that there was no Joanne, that Joanne Taylor was made up, that we were aware all of the evidence connected to his computer, that there was no Joanne. There had been a lot of time spent talking about Joanne, and we wanted to put an end to that because we wanted to find the boy. And fixating on Joanne when we knew it was fictional was not getting us closer to the boys. So that was one of the first things that we did. When he was confronted with that information, did he push back? No, no. He said he was confused, but he did not push back on it. What happened? Most of that interview- Go ahead, go ahead. Finish up, go ahead. Oh, you had asked me to tell you what had happened in that interview. Most of that interview was about Tanya, his ex-wife, or soon-to-be ex-wife. He, anytime we brought up the boys, there was no conversation, but there was a lot of conversation about Tanya wanting everything. He didn't want her to have any of the memories, how she hurt him, and that the courts don't forgive accidents. That was his phrasing? Yes. So, let me back up just a second. Where is this interview occurring at? I'm sorry? Where is this interview occurring at? Where are you at? Oh, the interview was at the hospital. Okay, what- Mr. Skelton was- Hospital in Toledo. And were you in his hospital room, or what type of room were you in while this was going on? Yes, we were in his hospital room with him. Okay. All right, what happens next? We continued talking. He just started telling us that he didn't remember what happened. At some point in time, did he outline what he said had happened on Thanksgiving, on Thursday? He did. There were several different versions, though. In the version that he told us about, consult notes, he said that on Thanksgiving, he was playing with his boys. He got them into their pajamas, and at some point after 9 p.m., they were in their pajamas. One was playing a video game, and one was working on a puzzle. He was able to describe exactly who wore what pajamas, and what they looked like. He said Drew was dressed in brown pajama pants with an orange stripe on the side. He said Tanner was dressed in camouflaged pants and a Scooby-Doo t-shirt, and Alexander was dressed in black pants. And then he told us that at some point, he wrapped them all in blankets, gave them each a stuffed animal, placed them in his van, made sure that their seatbelts were buckled. And then it stopped at that point. And then he said he could not remember what happened next. And the next memory that he had was the following morning, going to his aunt's house. So he specifically used the word his van. He had, yeah, in prior conversations, he had talked about Joanne came over, and Joanne had a van, and when we told him there was no other van, and witnesses had told us there was no other van, it's only his van, and his comments were that he put them in his van. Did he explain to you how he wound up in the hospital? How he wound up what? In the hospital. In the hospital, yes. He said it was a botched suicide attempt, that he was going to hang himself, but when he changed his mind and he was trying to get off of the banister, he fell and ended up breaking his ankle. At some point in time, did you make him aware that you had information about his vehicle being away from the home in the early morning hours of the 26th? Yes, we did. And what was his response? He told us he did not remember leaving his home, and we said, you know, witnesses said the van left. It was Black Friday, people were out shopping early, and we had cell phone information that showed that his phone left the house around 4.30 in the morning, and it did not return to the house until approximately 6.46 a.m., and our cell phone record showed that he had traveled about 20 miles southwest of Marenci. And did he say he didn't remember leaving, but if he did, what did he say? No, he said he did not remember leaving. Okay, did he indicate that if he had gone somewhere, this is where he would have gone? He talked about different places that had importance to him, and the first place that he talked about was an old schoolhouse in Cockle, Ohio that held significance to him because it was close to Tanya's sister's home, and he had been there delivering, what is it, tomatoes? And the boys really liked to go there. There was a park close by, so this was an area that held special significance. What else did he tell you about that schoolhouse? He said it was possible that the boys could be there. He described it as a two-story brick building with a chain link fence around it. He said it was deserted but open. And he said that we should go to the schoolhouse and look for the boys. And I remember points of orientation. We have two pictures, 71 and 72, which again have been stipulated too, and I want to get those to you so you have a point of reference when Ms. Liberty's talking. Seen and reviewed as stipulated, Judge. So was there further discussion about that possibility that the children might be there? He said we should go there to look for them. What happens next? We did send a team out. This was in the evening at this point, so we did send a team out there to search that entire area. The team responded. They went, they searched. I did leave John's room for a time and they drove out that way to see if there was anything. By the time I arrived, they were done searching. They didn't find anything, and I returned right back to the hospital and Donna and I let John know that we didn't find anything there. So you actually went out to the schoolhouse? I did. It was late, it was dark, and I didn't participate in the search because it was over at that point, but I wanted to be there in case they didn't find anything. So we're still talking about November 28th at this point, correct? Yes. All right. When you returned to the hospital, and you told them that nothing, told Mr. Skelton that nothing was found there, what happens next? He did not seem very surprised. After that, it was about 10 o'clock at night, I believe, when we returned, and he did not stay long. We let him know that, so we let him get some rest, and we'd be back to talk to him tomorrow. Was there anything else that stood out in the November 28th discussions to you that you haven't mentioned so far? One of the things that stood out to me in the November 28th was when Pastor Donna brought up the boys, she used present tense. They're good boys. They enjoy doing things like, you know, running around and having fun. But when Jack mentioned that he spoke in past tense, he said, you know, oh, his son did like doing that. He loved church. They had special shoes. Everything was past tense. But he really didn't speak a lot about the boys. It was more about Tanya and how Tanya hurt him and wanted to get back together with Tanya. Whenever the boys were brought up, there was emotion there, but he really didn't talk about them a lot. So there was significant questioning to you by Mr. Skelton about Tanya? There was a lot of conversation about Tanya and how, you know, she would never hug him again. She would never kiss him again. You know, she'd never want to be with him again. And throughout much of this time, you indicated he was very emotional? I'm sorry? He was emotional during these discussions? Very, yes. He was very emotional the whole time. There was, you know, a lot of crying, a lot of confusion because he was saying he did not remember certain things. So it was emotional. Did he, on his own volition, bring up the boys? No. That was always brought up by you. Is that correct? That is correct. On his own volition, did he bring up the questions, the concerns about his relationship with Tanya? Yes. At any point in time on November 28th, during your discussions with him, did Mr. Skelton ever indicate that he was concerned about Tanya abusing the boys? Whether it be physically, sexually, anything at all like that? No, that was actually never part of our conversation at all. And he never volunteered it or offered it in any way, is that correct? No. That is correct. Well, that is correct, correct, yes. Would he look you in the eye when he talked to you? No, he was in a hospital bed, and a lot of times he was looking down. Sometimes he looked at me, sometimes he looked at Donna. It wasn't a conversation where we maintained eye contact the whole time. Earlier in your testimony, you mentioned that he seemed to remember things, but not specifically anything about the boys and where they had gone to, where they were. Is that accurate, what I said? Yes. Okay, can you explain that in a little more detail for us? Mr. Skelton had a great deal of detail about Thanksgiving Day and what happened on Thanksgiving Day and he had phone calls with Tanya, he had the boys, he made them dinner, he was able to tell us everything he cooked for dinner. They had ice cream for dessert, the boys played outside for a little bit. He was able to tell us what they were doing that evening, the video games, the puzzle, the pajamas, and then nothing. And then his memory stops and did not pick back up until the next morning when he said he recalled being in his aunt's house. So he had it to the point where he said he then placed them in his van, and the discussion about what they were wearing and the stuffed animal and things like that. Did he mention whether or not he put them, where he put them in the van, did he put them in booster seats, did he just put them in the back? Where did he put them? I believe he did mention a booster seat, especially for the younger one. But my recollection is that he put them in the van and made sure they had seat belts on. Okay, so this, after the trip back from the schoolhouse, this conversation wrapped up around 10 p.m. on the 28th, is that right? Approximately. So now we're moving to the 28th, and you have further discussions with Mr. Skelton, is that correct? 29th, I'm sorry, did I say? On the 29th, yes. 29th? Yes, so on the 29th, Special Agent Glennon and I went in in the morning, and we continued our conversations. Was Donna Galloway on site on the 29th? I don't recall. Okay. I don't know if she was not. I would guess that she was, but I don't know for sure. All right. So what time did you start on the 29th, if you recall? About 10.30 in the morning. And this was yourself and Special Agent Mike Glennon? Yes. He's also part of this team that you're referring to, correct? No, Mike was an agent out of the Detroit office. How was he chosen to participate? By his supervisor, the SAC, in charge of the Detroit division. Okay. All right, so what happens in the morning of the 29th? Mike and I went in to see Mr. Skelton, and the first thing that happened when we walked into the room is that Mr. Skelton told us that he had a dream that really scared him, and it was very, very real to him. Tell us about what he said. He said that he was standing on Route 15 in Holiday City, Ohio. He was across the street from a nice hotel where he and Tanya had stayed in the past. That hotel had a hot tub in the room, and he had very good memories of the time he had spent there with her. Across the street from this nice hotel was a motel. He could not recall the names of either place. He said the motel had a gravel lot beside it and a dumpster. By the dumpster was a light pole, and on the other side was a mom-and-pop type restaurant. Behind the dumpster was grass, and further, he'd never been back by those houses, but they were back behind these buildings. He said in his dream it was like having tunnel vision, that he saw his van pull up, parked beside the dumpster. He said he saw Joanne Taylor get out of the car, but then it became him. He then drew a picture of this location to help. With my help, I was sitting with him, and he drew a picture to show us where all these things were. So the picture depicted a motel with a light on, because he specifically described a light shining down onto a child's bike. It was underneath the light. He showed where the van was, the dumpster beside the van. He depicted the dumpster as having a split top, or just two separate tops to pull up, and then the restaurant, and then he kept telling us he had a bad feeling about this, that this might be where the boys were, and we asked him to show us where we should look, and he drew an X on the dumpster, and another X behind the dumpster. And when we said, where should we search first, he pointed to the dumpster. Your Honor, I apologize. Just, I don't have any issue with the witness refreshing her recollection, but I believe she read directly from her entire police report, which went way beyond the scope of the question. I don't think that's appropriate. I only notice when I start seeing her put her head down, I'm like, is she reading the whole report? For the purposes of the preliminary examination, if in fact you're referring back to your report with a refresh record, you must give notice of that. And rather than read from that report, though it may not seem particularly distinguishable, should be then speaking to what was repressed in your recollection. Thank you. Okay. So backing up just a minute, the drawing that you're referring to, we have admitted into evidence as I believe exhibit 69 and 70. The court has that. You've seen that, you're aware of that, those documents, correct? Yes. Now, did you watch Mr. Skelton make that drawing? Yes, we sat together and did it together. The actual, the writing on that drawing, the handwriting is mine, the sketches are his. And did he direct you to, did he have trouble writing words at this point in time? Yeah, he, I remember asking him if he was left-handed, I believe his left hand was injured, so that's why I wrote out some of the words. So he drew the actual spot where the dumpster is or where the motel was or any of the other things that are on that drawing, correct? Yes. And then did he instruct you where to write the word dumpster, motel, things of that nature? Yes. And the spots where the Xs are located on that drawing, who put those Xs there? Mr. Skelton did. Right above the X on that drawing is the word dumpster, is that correct? Correct. And that shows like at the top of that dumpster area, the split or the two areas that you could lift up, one side or the other side, correct? Correct. Okay, now he drew that dumpster? Yes. And the only thing that you added to that was the word dumpster? Yes. And above that where the X is marked, the X is marked in the lower portion of the dumpster area, right, on the drawing? Yes. And there's another X above that, off the dumpster itself? Correct. Tell us about that. That X is behind the dumpster. That indicates to look behind the dumpster. And there's a word there, is that grass? Grass, yes. And then to the left of that, well to the left of that, not that far, but to the left side of the page is the restaurant, is that what it says there? Restaurant. And you wrote restaurant there? Yes, I did. And to the right of the dumpster, what is that? The van, Mr. Skelton's van. So he drew that van there? Yes. And you put the word van on top of that portion of the drawing? I did. Okay, and then to the right of that, what is to the right of that? That would be the motel. And then there's a word that says light because he described the light shining down onto a bike. Okay, so the motel is worded up on the left corner of that portion of the drawing. The light is in the middle of the motel area. And the bike, is that bike, B-I-K-E, is that correct, in the lower right corner? Correct. And again, refresh our memories, why was that significant to Mr. Skelton? It was something he had mentioned that he saw in his dream, is that on the motel there was a light shining down and there was a bicycle it was shining on. That's what he saw in his dream and that's what we were drawing out. Okay, moving back to the discussion, I think where you left off with Mr. Amadeo's objection, everything, whether you read it there or are adopting it as your testimony today, is that correct? Correct. And after that portion of it, what was his physical reaction, if any, when he was outlining the story about Joanne and that he became himself and the boys going into the dumpster, what was his physical reaction at this stage of it? His physical reaction at which stage, I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Sure, when he said in his dream, when he saw Joanne get out of the vehicle, did his become a physical reaction, an emotional reaction of some nature at that point in time? He was very emotional. He kept telling us, go get them, go get them. I have, he kept telling us, I have a bad feeling. He told us at one point, there's not nothing there. He said it was a premonition. He also told us, Tanya's gonna hate me. She's never gonna kiss me again. And kept like physically saying, go get them, go get them, go get them. While we were talking to him, there were teams out starting this search. Okay, so backing up to what you just said, at one point you said, there's not nothing there. You used like a double negative? Yes, there's not nothing there. At some point during this process, did he begin to hyperventilate? He was crying. He was crying very heavily. He said the dream scared him a lot. He was very afraid that he had done something bad. And yeah, there was a lot of it is him talking between breaths while he's crying. So at some point in time, did he actually physically touch you to get you to go get his boys out of the dumpster? I don't recall if he physically touched me. He was very adamant to me, go, go, go, go get them, go get them, go get them. Ms. Lippert, let me ask you to refer to your 302 report if you have that handy for the purposes of freshening your memory. On the third page of that document, my third page anyway, there's a discussion midway down there. Which paragraph? Would have been the third paragraph from the bottom. Starts out, Skelton offered to. Oh, yes, thank you. So he did tell us that he was about 95% sure that the boys were going to be there. And in my notes, it did reflect that he did physically touch me as to encourage me to go search, incorrect. So did he go on to talk about what he was gonna be viewed as when you found the boys? He was very afraid of being viewed as a titled killer and a monster. He used those words to you? He did. So in this discussion that you're having with him, this is under 129, correct? Yes, so yes or no for us, okay. Yes. He'd been in the hospital since the 26th, correct? Since Friday. Okay. So if those boys had been placed in that dumpster by him, they would have had to have happened prior to him going into the hospital. Yes. Go check the speculation there. That's eliminating third parties, if the story's even true. The question was, if he had been in the hospital since Friday, the 26th, that means that if he put the boys in the dumpster, it had to be before that. It's not the way I heard it, but I apologize if that's what was said. That's what I heard. I thought it was an almost exact quote, Your Honor. So you can answer that question. Yes, yes. All right, so there's an initial search that goes on at that dumpster, correct? Yes. That evening or that night, right? As, actually it was happening as we were talking with Mr. Skelton. Was this still during the day then, daytime? Yes. All right. And people are communicating back to you and Mike Glennon about what's going on out there? They were. And at some point in time, they give you information that indicates what is going on at this dumpster? They had found nothing. They found nothing in their search during the daytime hours of November 29th? Correct. When you and Special Agent Glennon received this information, what did you do next? We told Mr. Skelton. What exactly did you say to him, if you recall? He was, Mr. Skelton was still very adamant about us going out there, and we told him, you know, we do have people out there, they're out there now, and they're not finding anything. There's nothing in the dumpster. What happens next? He became very, very emotional, very distraught. He said, did you look everywhere? And we said, yes, we did. And he said, if the garbage is gone, find out where it went. And he was crying. There was a lot of crying. He was very distraught. And those two things, you know, if the garbage is gone, find out where it went, were his, the biggest statements after finding out that, you know, we were telling him nothing was there. How much longer after this does the interview go on for? Probably another half hour. And what is discussed during this period of time? I'm gonna look at my notes, if that's okay? Yes, you can refresh your memory, but don't read them. Thank you, no, I won't. He said that he had done everything for Tamiria, and he would still let her hurt him if she wanted to. And then he said, it's over. The kids are what tied us together, and now it's over. We asked him about that, what that meant. And he just said, you know, it's over, it's over. The kids are what kept them together. He did not remember being there, but he felt it, because again, he was describing, you know, what he told us was a dream. He was afraid of finding out that he hurt his kids, and he was afraid of going to jail. So in the meantime, while this was going on, were other agents working with the goal to find out where the garbage had been taken to? Yes. And is there anything else notable that you recall from this interview with Mr. Skelton on November 29th? It was a very emotional interview. It was very disturbing. What I remember the most is that, even though we were talking about finding these boys, it seemed that the concerns were still focused on Tanya, and then focused on how people would perceive Mr. Skelton. Whereas, you know, our focus was, where are the boys? We want to find these boys. If there's a chance we can find them, and help them, that's what we want to do. But his focus was not on that. How did the interview come to an end? At the very end, Mr. Skelton said, that's when he was talking about being afraid of going to jail, that people would think he was a monster, and he wanted to talk to an attorney. And the interview terminated at that point in time? It terminated right then. Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honor. Good morning. Were these videos recorded? The audio was recorded. No video, correct? Correct. Okay, how come there was no video? I don't believe we had video equipment at our disposal. That would be a decision, or a question you would have to ask a special agent in Detroit. There was a special agent in charge of the Detroit office at that time. I'm sorry, let me just clarify that. You were working for the FBI, correct? Correct. And you're telling me the FBI did not have video equipment in 2010 for an interview? Objection, that's not what she said. I have to try this for clarification. Well, it's kind of the old law school example. When did you stop being your wife? No matter how she cuts or slices it, she can't answer it correctly. So the question is, you want to know, are you telling me the FBI didn't have equipment? She did not say that. What she said was that would have been something that would have been, they didn't have any available at that time, and if they needed that equipment, it would have been coming from the agent that was assigned out of the Detroit office, but she did not have any available to her at that time. I appreciate that this is cross-examination, but I would further indicate that trying to keep the record as tidy as possible would be helpful. Understood, Your Honor. What was the first day you became involved in the investigation? I'm sorry, what was the first day and when? What was the first day you became involved in this investigation? The first day was the day that the card team was deployed, and that was on Saturday the 27th. Okay, and what does it mean to be activated? So we have, at that time, we had six different teams. I was on the North Central team for this part of the United States. So when a child went missing in our part of the country, our supervisor at headquarters would send out an activation notice that would be an email to everybody on the team saying we have a case, here's where it is, I am activating the team, start making your travel arrangements. So it would be an email instructing you to make your travel arrangements, get ready and leave and go. And did you interview him on November 28th and November 29th of 2010? Yes. Okay, and did you testify that you were briefed on what happened prior to the interview? Yes. Who briefed you? It would have been several different people. When the card team arrived in Detroit, we were briefed by the case agent at the time, the special agent in charge of the office was there, I believe there were some local officers, whoever had participated in the investigation up until that point. And what did they explain to you in this briefing? They explained that there had been a previous custody issue, that Mr. Skelton had the boys on Thanksgiving, he was supposed to return them to Tanya on Friday. They were not returned, which is what prompted the investigation. And then all of the investigation that they did up until that point about what had happened on Thanksgiving. And were there any civilians involved in the briefing or was it all government agents? In the briefing? Yes. I believe it was all agents. Was no individuals? I'm sorry? No individuals outside of law enforcement that gave you any information in your briefing? I do not recall if Pastor Donna was part of the briefing or if I met her afterwards. Let's swap Pastor Donna for a minute. Is she the one who told you that John was churchgoing? No, I believe that came up in our briefing. How did you get that information? What was the source that John was churchgoing? From one of the agents or police officers who had been initially assigned to work the case. What were you told about the divorce? We were told about John taking the boys to Florida previously, that it was very contentious at the time that Mr. Skelton had shared information with his boys about their mom, that she didn't appreciate about her past, and that there was a lot of fighting, but that Mr. Skelton still wanted to get back together, but Tammy Skelton did not. In any of the briefing that you were provided, did anybody ever say that John physically assaulted his children, ever? I did not hear that, no. What were you told about this Joanne Taylor? I'm sorry? What were you told about Joanne Taylor? You mentioned her on direct examination. Right, so we were told that Joanne Taylor was an identity that Mr. Skelton created online as a way to communicate with Tammy Skelton. Who told you that? A few different people, but mainly the folks who were examining Mr. Skelton's computer. And do you know if they made that determination because of an IP address? Do I know what, I'm sorry? Do you know how they made the determination? Was it because of an IP address? I was not on the CART. CART is the folks that did the computer examination. I wasn't on that team. I didn't participate in that, so I don't know how they, what all they used to come to that conclusion. You testified that behavior analysis people were with you. Is that correct? Correct. Who was on the behavior analysis team? Do you remember? I believe Agent Beasley and Agent Eakins, but I am not 100% positive. On November 28th, Special Agent Glannon and Pastor Donna, were they the first to interview John? I'm consulting my notes. On the 20th, yes, they were the first two. And you testified that you listened to the interview, correct? I did. Okay. When did you listen to it? How long before your interview did you listen to the first interview? I listened to it while it was happening. How long after that first interview did you conduct your first interview? I am not sure because I don't remember what time they started theirs, but I believe when I first met Mr. Skelton, it was in the late afternoon around 4.30 or so. And where was John when he interviewed him? He was in the hospital. Did you remember him telling you he was confused? Many times. Yeah. And do you know if he was under the influence of narcotics when he interviewed him? No, I don't. He was in the hospital bed, correct? He was. He was in the psych unit. And he said to you, correct me if I'm wrong, the courts don't forgive accidents. Is that correct? Yes. And what did you take that to mean? He didn't explain it any further. Did you follow up? We did. How long did you interview him? I think the first interview that I did was probably about an hour, maybe a little longer. And did you give him his Miranda rights prior to the interview? Mr. Glennon did. Was that with you or before you came in with Mr. Glennon giving him his rights? That was when he was with, at the very beginning when he was with Pastor Donna. Okay, so this is important, Agent. When you entered the room to start your interview, did you re-Mirandaize my client or not? Did I re-Mirandaize him? No, it was with Agent Glennon. Okay, so you just joined the freight and you started doing your investigation, correct? I wasn't doing my own investigation, no. Did you ask questions of my client? I did. Did you do that after Agent Glennon already did so? Yes. Do we have an investigation? Her own questioning would be a better term, I should say. So when you started doing your questioning, did you ever Mirandaize my client? No, it wasn't my questioning. This was a team. We were all part of a team and we continued the questioning. And you kept bringing different agents in to question my client while he was in a hospital bed, correct? Not different, Mr. Special Agent Glennon and myself and Pastor Donna. Okay, so let's be real clear with this. Pastor Donna and Agent Glennon interviewed my client first, correct? Yes. And you said that Agent Glennon Mirandaized my client, is that true? Yes. And did you watch that first interview? I listened to it. You listened to it. And then you came in and started questioning my client as well, correct? Yes. When you came in and started questioning my client, did you Mirandaize my client or did Agent Glennon re-Mirandaize my client? Or was that not done at all? No, we did not re-Mirandaize him. Thank you. How many prior conversations, well, let's skip that. Did he tell you, did John tell you he did not remember leaving his home? Yes. Did you tell him witnesses saw him leave? Yes. Who were the witnesses that saw him leave? His neighbors saw the van leave. What time of day was that, do you know? Early in the morning, it was Black Friday. They were Black Friday shopping. And did you testify he spoke about different places that meant a lot to him? I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Did you, do you remember him saying he told about different places that meant a lot to him, such as the hotel? And did you play a role in these searches? No, I did not. Do you know if every place he mentioned was searched? The two places that he specifically mentioned being the schoolhouse in Campbell and the motel from his dream were the two places he talked about, and those were both searched. Do you remember asking John if he could think of any place the children could be? Not specifically, no. Do you remember John telling you that he actually placed the children in Joanne's van? That was part of his conversation with Pastor Don. John tried to kill himself, to your knowledge? Did he? Yep. I don't, I only know what he said, I wasn't there. Was he laid up in the hospital bed? He was. And do you know, I've asked this before, but to be clear, did you do any independent research to see if he was under the influence of narcotics when you or Agent Glenn spoke to him? I do not. Do we know if John was even competent to speak during this time? He was competent to speak. Based on what? Based on my interactions with him, based on listening to him, and based on the hospital staff allowing us to be there and telling us it was okay for him to talk to us. So to be clear, did you make that determination that John was competent on your own? No, I was sent in to do the interview after it was cleared by the hospital and my bosses. How was it cleared by the hospital? Can you explain that process to me? You would have to ask them. On November 29th, who interviewed John? That's the next day. Special Agent Glenn and I. Okay, and is this when he told you about this dream he had? Yes. Wasn't Pastor Galloway present when he told you about a dream? I do not recall if she was there or not. And you testified that you and John did drawings together, is that accurate? I'm sorry, what? Did drawings together? Drawings. One drawing, one sketch. And did you say he had trouble writing words? Yes. So to be clear, he's in a hospital bed, he's laid up, he has trouble writing words, but you stand by the fact that he's competent to do an interview, correct? I believe his hand, something was wrong with his hand. Gotcha. Did you ever find the boys? No, we did not. Do you know if any, based on your part of this investigation, do you know if any physical evidence was ever found? I do not know. Do you play any role in recommending charges to a prosecutor? No. If you know, were murder charges ever recommended against my client in 2010? I don't know, that wasn't part of my responsibility. I understand, nothing further. No further questions, Your Honor, on this witness. May she be excused. She may, no objection. Thank you, you are excused, thank you very much. Thank you.