Teen eBiker Jailed After Hit And Run ｜ Global Mountain Bike Show ep4

Yes, but it's a horse. It's not a monster truck that's going through there, is it? He was on his phone. He was smoking weed and obviously in no state to be on the road, right? I can see why some mountain bikers might be a little bit pissed off. Exactly. Along comes Tom Pidcock and shows him how it's done. I think it is fair to say no to either bike. I think at the point you're singling one out over the other, that's where the issue lies. On today's Global Mountain Bike Show, are e-bikes destroying the reputation of e-mountain bikes? Some very sad news of trail closures in many parts of the world. We're going to be joined by our resident Tour de France racer, Daniel Lloyd, who's going to be talking about the subject of our roadies ruining races. Some very sad news recently which broke on BBC News that grandmother Gloria Stevenson got killed on a zebra crossing by a teenager on an electric motorcycle. It seems that the bike was in not very good state of repair. It wasn't road legal. He was on his phone. He was smoking weed and obviously in no state to be on the road, right? Yes. I think what we need to pick up with that is, as you just said, it was an electric motorcycle essentially, but a lot of the way this has been reported is that it's an e-bike. What's the difference between an e-bike and an e-mountain bike? There are restrictions, but we'll come on to that in a bit. Let's talk about e-bikes in general in city centers. They're part and parcel of the city center. They come in many shapes and forms. You've got Uber Eats or Deliveroo, and then you've got some bikes which are clearly made professionally, and they've got wide tires and they've got racks and stuff like that, but there are a lot of home-built kits. I know these terrify you, Adam, right? Absolutely. And why is that? So I've got to preface this. I do appreciate a proper EMTB e-bike does come at a cost, but that's been properly purposely engineered. It's got all the safety features on it. It's got your battery management, it's got your thermal cutouts if it gets hot when it's charging, that sort of thing, whereas these homebrew kits don't have that. There are better kits than others, but the majority I've seen bolted to, I guess, bikes that weren't designed ever to have that much weight or power put through them. It's just dangerous. It can be. I think London Fire Brigade called for a ban on lots of e-bikes and lots of kits of e-bikes, especially in blocks of flats, because of the fire risk of them charging. I think this is part of the mix-up with the media referring to e-mountain bikes, e-bikes, and it's this huge coverall. When we're talking about EMTBs, it's a different thing. I think just on the kits, there can be some really good kits available. I think the key is that lots of those kits actually do have the torque sensors, which we're getting nerdy and techie already, but that bit's really important as are the turn of phrase of e-mountain bike and e-bike. It's really easy if you read that headline. It's the same, unfortunately, in quite a few different countries where e-bikes have either started to be banned or been involved in serious traffic collisions. We're talking about EMTB when actually it's not. It's an e-motor bike and it's very different because it doesn't have this torque sensor. It doesn't have the pedal assist. It's having a throttle. That's the big difference, not so much whether it's home-brewed or not. Yes, it's definitely subject to throttle assist, but there's also the fact that there are fire hazards with some of these bikes because they're not professionally put together. I love the comment you mentioned a couple of days ago, the fact that you can see these bikes in city centers and the chain has not been used. I didn't even think of that. The regular drivetrain on the bike just doesn't move where it's got twist and go. Yes, that's how we talk about the bikes. That's an e-bike, but it's not an EMTB. Interestingly, Panorama run a story on illegal e-bikes last year. One of the comments that came across was that there's no restrictions on these e-bikes. Well, there actually are very clear restrictions on e-bikes. They're restricted to 25 kph and they're pedal assist. Those for the bikes that we ride, they're pedal assist bikes, as you mentioned. We could transition this conversation into e-moto because the CEO of Maran Bikes, Matt van Enkvort, was recently on a podcast and he said that EMTBs are trending too close to e-motos. Now, this is really important because you mentioned, Owen, that the media are misreporting things. Well, I take issue with the fact that EMTBs are being closely matched to e-motors because they're a million miles from an e-motor. What's nuts is the perception is that e-bike, it's got this restriction but it's still basically the same thing. It helps you a little bit. Now, I've read it in the comments when we've done something on e-bikes on tech, there's a lot of chat about misunderstanding what the difference is. It's a shame that there's this mix-up from somebody who is running a business selling e-bikes because they're hugely different. Can we just get some facts and figures on EMTBs versus e-moto? EMTB, some of the bikes we ride on on the channel, you've got a Bosch bike or an Avanox bike, they're between one to two horsepower. Now, a Suron, which it seems to be that this kid was riding when he mowed down Gloria Stevenson, was on a bike which was over 20 horsepower. That's 10 times more powerful than an EMTB. I know there's the power to weight and all that kind of stuff. There's also the speed restriction as well. The motor assist cuts out on an EMTB. Yes, but then you move on to another e-moto, which is a Stark. Loads of mountain bikers love Stark bikes. 80 horsepower. 80 horsepower. Then you've got people comparing an EMTB with an e-moto. It's ludicrous. You said it was e-moto versus e-bike. They're two different categories and they are worlds apart. Do you know what? I actually want to go back to city centers. We're talking about bikes. I think bikes are a good thing in city centers. They're a great, great way to get around. Then at the same time, we actually share that space with cars. You could say a Ferrari or a Rimac is up to 2,000 horsepower. We share the space within inches of pedestrians and nothing is really spoken about that or the fact of the power of big lorries in city centers. I think there is an alternative perspective to the transport in city centers. E-bikes, EMTBs, whatever you do, it does lead on to some concerns that people in the industry have and that's on land access. Actually, me and Adam were in South Wales last week. South Wales is known for motorcycles hoeing around the woods illegally and there are crushers waiting at forestry gates to put people's brand new 350 KTMs and flatten them out. I didn't know that. That's what they've got to do. I remember early trail centers in South Wales Valleys which they were built because mountain biking was growing. It's growing really well. A lot of the early trail damage wasn't from other trail users, legal trail users. It wasn't the classic debate of horses in soft conditions can damage trails or there's badgers digging up trails. No, it was illegal motorbikes riding single track because the trails are really nice. Then they had to introduce more and more barriers to stop access which then meant actually it was really hard to get into. Actually, folks, let's talk about trail access and e-mountain bikes. Hold on. Before we dive into trail access, I think it's really important because I feel like there's some discussion between us but what about you out there? What's your thoughts on this topic? Do we need to stick to calling EMTBs EMTBs and not confuse stuff with e-bikes? Does the industry actually need to make a better case for EMTBs and talk about how there are restrictions and how they're not these open-ended throttle assist bikes? What are your thoughts? Let us know in the comments and now we'll get into trail access because I think that's another huge topic which does feed off e-bikes, doesn't it? I'll actually preface it before. There's an amazing guy, rest in peace Jobs Brandt, who rode loads of off-road riding on a road bike and he started Tom Ritchie and Fisher off on lots of these huge epic rides. There's a book out there about him but he really disliked mountain bikers because they were riding his trails because there's basically nobody else where he was living. I think Palo Alto, lovely part of the world in California. There's no one else there and then these mountain bikers started coming and started riding on his trails. It feels like that is an exact conversation that loads of people have about EMTBs and e-mountain bikes is, well, these are my trails and you're ruining access. It's funny. Actually, I did ride a road race bike on forest tracks in the 1970s. It was a Dors Star Celeste 27 by one and a quarter tires on there. I'd come back with punctures every time but I loved the experience. This is the thing, we've had discussions in the comments from other people about, oh, I was doing this riding and Steve's right, yeah, California didn't invent. No. I never said that off-road riding was invented in Marin County and Fairfax. Never said that. I said when mountain biking took off. It's a whole interesting debate because that's when bikes started to develop. That's when tires and you had less flats started to develop. Off-road riding, been around for years. Just a clarification. Can we make a perfect transition then to a story coming out of Oregon? There's a few trail closure stories which have emerged over the past few weeks which are quite concerning because they have repercussions for mountain bikers all over the world. The first one is actually from the Sierra Club which is an environmental organization in America. They posted on a trail in Crater Lake. This is in Oregon. It's actually meant to be the deepest lake in the US and said to be one of the most pristine on earth. Now, I guess mountain bikers have had a difficult time in America for many years. It's not just e-mountain bikes but the Sierra Club actually singles out e-mountain bikers as having no access to this part of the trail in Crater Lake. Interesting. Now, a quick overview of the Sierra Club. Founded in 1892 by a group of Californians, naturalist John Muir as his first president. He very quickly involved the club in political action to further nature conservation but also land access. Now, what we should be talking about as mountain bikers is should we be singling out e-mountain biking from mountain biking or should be talking in union? There should be a federation of mountain biking to talk about this subject, right? Yeah, I think there should be. I think land access is a hugely challenging issue. We're really lucky here in the UK that the land access in general is pretty good. I know it's a whole topic and I'm talking to the right slash wrong person when you speak about land access but versus in America, I know in around Marin, there's trail closures happening there as well and it's trail closures to mountain biking. There's always debates and I think Sierra Club were quite vocal in closing trails for mountain biking too because of erosion and things like this but they're also then still letting horses on so it's always been a contentious issue. The leave no trace thing is one of my take-homes from the Sierra Club is very much go and see nature, go and enjoy this incredible space but leave no trace, don't damage it and I think that's where different riding styles can lead to potentially different trail damage and I think there's an assumption that EMTBs are at fault. Just to summarise the Sierra Club, they actually helped to found the National Parks and Wilderness Act in America. They're a massively powerful lobby group and I've thought about this notice on this trail at Crater Lake. I think fair enough. Not only do I think there should be no e-mountain bikers, I don't think there should be any mountain bikers there because it's a national park. It should be there for peaceful recreation on foot. I'm cool with that. Totally. If we break it down to the e-bike versus the, let's just call them regular bikes for the sake of conversation. In theory, you could run the same tyre and if you get some absolute wattage monster, you could be putting the same load into that ground as you would on the e-bike. I think it is fair to say no to either bike. I think at the point you're singling one out over the other, that's where the issue lies. Yes, I think it's a very contentious topic because I know that mountain biking, thankfully, we know how fantastic mountain biking can be for mental health, for physical health, for general well-being, mountain biking, getting outside. It's blooming good. Yes, it's fantastic. It's not just to, it's so easy to fall into within the mountain bike industry of a new bike, new tech, oh, that's really exciting, or someone's done something incredible, a race. I feel like we're all guilty here of falling into that, but probably the biggest take and that all of us take and we need to project to you out there is that mountain biking can be brilliant. It's awesome for so many people. If there's limitations to how awesome that can be and if you live near Crater Lake and that's your only mountain biking, it feels like that's a step back. You're right. It feels Steve, that mountain biking, the industry, the races, the media, it feels like there is a tipping point happening where we need to come together to start having a conversation about better land access. It's not just, we'll build a trail center because that's a different form of mountain biking. On the subject of trail centers, actually, there's another story emerging from northern Germany. This was reported by EMT News. It talks of the northern Rhine-Westphalia area and talks of a draft which is potentially extremely restrictive amendment to the forest laws in that area. I think what arises from this is that the media will jump onto mountain bikers as troublemakers in the woods. We're not just talking earlier, we're talking about EMTB and e-bikes. We're now talking about EMTBs and MTBs and all being lumped together, but we should be united, shouldn't we, in trying to preserve our access because as mountain bikers, I think in Germany, it's even more difficult. I think the trail access in Germany is far less than we have in the UK. That's the whole thing with trail access. It differs massively all over the world. Even in the UK, as a tiny island example, Wales has talked a long time about an everyman's right and a right to roam. Not yet there. Scotland has the right to roam, so there is the ability to go where you want to. Not necessarily ride trails wherever you want to because potentially there isn't the infrastructure and the trails aren't ready to support that, but then in the UK, it's more restrictive. We're restricted to certain routes. I know actually, looping back to you talking about Crater Lake, I know in Colorado, there's a Colorado trail race, which is still on mountain bikes. It's a popular FKT. There's one section- What does FKT mean? Fast is no time. It's a racery thing playing outdoors. That's maybe a different discussion. Should FKTs be banned? It's just on this trail race, there's one section that moves into certain land access. Basically, mountain bike wheels cannot touch the ground in this national park. You'll have people doing the Colorado trail race. Correct me if it's the wrong race. I do apologize, ultra racers. People have to have a backpack to put the bike on. If you were to summarize maybe trail access globally in maybe one minute, I'd say that mountain bike trail access in America seems to be warming from the vibe I get. I mean, from the land which allegedly invented mountain biking, it's good news. Folks, let's talk about Europe. I've ridden in so many amazing places in Europe and it seems to be quite relaxed in the likes of Italy and France and Spain. Germany is more difficult, but what's your experiences of mountain bike access in those countries? I lived in Ireland for a little bit. It's quite fun there because at the time, it's going back over a decade. A lot of mountain biking wasn't legal. It was really entertaining. You'd got quite a lot of good cross-country races at the time and then you've got good enduro racing now, good downhill races there. There was two bike trail centers. There was loads of mountain biking everywhere. I rode in China last year right on the edge of Shanghai. I've seen loads of kids riding downhill bikes, shuttling the runs there. I want to quickly talk about the UK because as a case study for land access because in the UK, we've got trail centers, we've got bike parks, we've got bridleways, we've got private lands. Some people have access to byways. I actually took James on a byway ride last winter. Me and Adam actually went on a ride last week. The video is coming up on EMBN this weekend, a ride across all the South Wales coalfield. I don't think I've ridden a more diverse range of trails in a short space of time in my life. It was huge because we had prime gravel. Oh, you can't. I said the G word. We've talked about EMTB, that's dangerous enough. Now, you're putting gravel on it. That's a lot of controversy. And then we had what we both described as the best bridleway we've ever ridden. I think it was. I think it was. It was so good. Yes. I mean, it was insanely technical. It was. World Cup downhill tech and then into the most amazing flowing single track you will ever ride. Yes. Ever. Yes. You heard it. Some of the climbs that were listed as bridleway were tiny. Yes, but it's a horse. It's not a monster truck that's going through there, is it? Yes, but it's one horse power. Oh, and we had everything. We had bogs, we had bracken, we had bitten legs. To me, there was the unknown of route finding, although we did have the Garmin. There was zero meters visibility. There was riding on the urban fringe. We met people. I think just meeting people out on the trails. And do you know what? We actually bumped into this kid. There was four kids, actually. They're all wearing designer sunglasses, right? So, freeriders wear Prada, right? Do they? Yes, freeriders wear Prada. And we were talking to this kid. His name was Sam Jones. He literally won the whip off at the Vantajam, right? This is apparently the UK's premier freeride event. And he was just there on the hill sessioning on his e-mountain bike. Really cool. Well, you've got to get his practice in for those whips on an e-bike. I mean, there wasn't anything to whip on that trail, I don't know. Well, maybe that's why he's fantastic at whipping. We could transition into saying, well, actually, is the ride that we were doing more of a freeride than an adventure ride? Wow. Well, I mean, first, you've got to frame freeride because I feel like it's... I'm not doubting you, but I feel like it's pre-you. Because freeride, first, we need to say it was a brand name and it was trademarked in mountain biking. Before we get into freeride debate, can we ask you guys what your thoughts are on land access between mountain biking and e-mountain biking in different parts of the world? What are your experiences of land access? I mean, I think where we rode in the South Wales Valleys is possibly the densest network of mountain bike trails in the world. Wow. Should we save freeride as a discussion for another day? Oh, we could do, yeah. Should we bring in Dan Lloyd to talk about... Race. Racing and the fact that... Did you just say that roadies are killing mountain bike racing? I mean, that's a take. You've got some huge names from the roadside. We're going to have Dan Lloyd in a minute. He doesn't get much bigger name than that. There you go. You said it. Let's get Dan Lloyd in. Now, to help us dive into the last topic of this show, which Owen has titled, Are Roadies Killing MTB? We've got a man who is no stranger to tarmac, having raced in the Tour de France and also having raced in the World Mountain Bike Championships in Sierra Nevada in 2000, Daniel Lloyd. Just 26 years ago. Not many people actually know I represented Great Britain at a proper mountain bike world champs. Those legs have seen some action, that's for sure. And on the bike too. And on the bike. Owen, do you want to take it away with this hot topic? Yes, a hot topic. It's a bit controversial, but I figured we've seen race winners at Novo Mesto who've done well on the road. I'm talking about Pidcock specifically, but I could have talked, well, in previous years about Park Petersey and other racers, but are roadies who are just stepping into mountain biking, are they ruining the racing? Because there's been this UCI rule change a couple of years ago. It felt like it almost was just for Pidcock and for Matthew van der Poel, but we've had this rule change where opposed to having to amass some UCI points to race at World Cups, it's just carte blanche where they can just turn up and rock up to race. And is it ruining the racing? I'm going to do my usual sitting on the fence, but also giving perspectives from both sides. Great. So I can see why some mountain bikers might be a little bit pissed off, shall we say, because they're fully dedicated to sport, training for it specifically all year. Then along comes Tom Pidcock and shows them how it's done on one day, having done a lot of the road races in the early season and then returning to road racing ahead of the Tour de France. I'm not going to say it's embarrassing, but like I said, probably quite frustrating for them. On the other side of the fence, I'm sure that when Tom Pidcock races or Matthew van der Poel or these big names that come across from the road, they must draw in a bigger audience, I would have thought, because you still got the mountain bike diehards that want to watch the race. Plus you're going to get people like me that think, oh, I wonder how so-and-so is going to get on against the mountain bikers this weekend. So I'll tune in as well. And I'm sure many more roadies do exactly the same thing as me. I mean, I've been comparing it in my brain to what I experienced watching cyclocross each winter. Because where we have the likes of Van Aert, van der Poel and Pidcock, they need a rest at the end of the road season, which carries until mid-October. So they start their cross campaign a little bit later than the diehard crosses. But you're watching the early season thinking, I know I'm not watching the best cyclocross riders in the world. And so it doesn't feel quite the same to me until those big three turn up. The diehard crosses will say, yeah, but we've been racing for a couple of months now. We're starting to feel the fatigue. They've come in extremely fresh, well-trained. They are better, but of course, we're going to lose in that scenario. So I guess it's not dissimilar on the mountain bike. I guess you could both tell me what the feeling is from the spectators, the fans and the riders when somebody comes in. Oh, and you suggested that they do it because mountain biking is cooler and it's more fun, right? Well, it must be. Because if you're a pro roadie, why would you risk? A good example would be last year at Novo Mesto, there was a lot of hype, a lot of excitement that this road pro was coming over. And it's like, oh, it's probably like Putt-Pizzi. I've had a chat with her in the pit. She's really good. She's really nice. No, it was some other guy called Matthew, apparently, big name. Anyway, he took the risk of racing, crashed, and I assume then set back his proper job, his day job as a road racer. So yes, is it because it's fun? Going to that specific example, it's interesting actually that Van Der Poel keeps doing it because he hasn't been as successful in cross-country mountain biking as Pidcock, who seems to be able to just pick up his mountain bike, go to a World Cup, and I'll finish right up there or quite generally win it. Whereas Van Der Poel has definitely not had it his own way. I can't even remember the last time he won a big mountain bike race, but he still wants to keep doing it. And the reason he wants to keep doing it is because he finds it fun. It keeps his career feeling a bit fresher than if he just solely focused on the road. Is it cool? I mean, I guess they're doing some whips and table tops, but at the same time, they're still racing in Lycra skin suits. How cool can it really be? Dan, can I pick you up on that? I mean, it seems mountain biking is a relatively young sport. I think it seems to me that cross-country racers or mountain bikers in general, they've nailed down the nutrition. They've got the fitness sorted. The bikes are now incredibly developed. And so it did come across to me that the race in the weekend, it seemed like the likes of Pidcock were having fun. And ironically, it's the roadies who are styling it up. Oh no, like Bjorn Reilly, who also did some whips and jumps and stuff. He's proper mountain biker too. But yes, Pidcock was doing cool tricks, which was the juxtaposition, I guess, growing up in the 90s for me. One of the reasons why I'm not very good at downhill, but there was more appreciation or excitement because it seemed cooler, even though all of racing can be cool. Dan Lloyd, do you ride mountain bikes still? I haven't ridden a mountain bike for a long time actually, Steve. I did have a cross-country one and I broke it and I've not replaced it since. I think things have developed so much from the time that I was racing. I'd like to do cross-country still, but I actually also have done a couple of downhill mountain bike races. Did I tell you that? No. I'd love to hear this story. I did one at Checkenden, which at the time, as you remember, the downhills were basically the longest downhill from the cross-country course. That's what Checkenden was. It had this tiny start ramp, which I came off. I didn't even manage to ride straight down the start ramp. I went to the left. You got two runs at a time. I went around the first left-hander and just wiped out completely. Second run, top 10. Then I went and did one at Corve Castle, which I've described as more of a proper dangerous downhill. I stacked it. I hit the bottom of my back and couldn't race the next day. My dad said that you need to choose one or the other and that's going to be cross-country. Can I actually talk about the dangerous side of things? George North is famously into mountain biking, but he was restricted from riding mountain biking because he played for Wales, British Lions, and the Ospreys. Are there the same restrictions with road cyclists doing mountain biking? There might be. I know there's definitely restrictions for most pro riders in terms of doing cross-country or downhill skiing for understandable reasons. At the same time, a lot of Scandinavians who've grown up cross-country skiing and for whom it's easier to keep fit and train over the winter, they'll be allowed to do it because they've got the skills there. I'd imagine it's the same on the mountain bike front. Now, Van Der Poel, Pukpica, Tom Pidgart, they've just grown up doing jumps and wheelies and all the skills that you gain very quickly when you're a child that you wouldn't do if you picked up mountain biking as a 30-year-old roadie. That's why they're allowed to do it because much less chance of doing some serious damage. I feel like it's a French road team. It's a famous video, not because it's a French road team, but there's a guy, Bradley Wiggins, doing a bit of cyclocross. He'd never done it. There's this great shot of him being interviewed and then crashing in the background. You're like, okay, maybe that's why. It's rubbish, isn't it? What do you guys think? When the likes of Pidgart, Pukpica is not such a good example because she's always been multidisciplined, concentrating on all three somehow, but Pidgart does just come in every now and again and seems to show them who's boss. What is the sentiment amongst mountain bikers in the community when that happens? I guess I get grumpy in the fact that I'm just like, he's a roadie coming in, there's been this rule change specifically. It feels like I'm own juxtaposition because I'm like PFP, Puk, Marianne Vos, who did cross over from road and do mountain bike as well. I'm like, yeah, that's great because for a long time, it felt like road pro cycling. It didn't have the equal, whereas now there is some more equality. There is a women's Tour de Femme, there is the bigger races, whereas in mountain biking, it felt like there was more big races. I was like, that's okay, but for the male road race, I was a bit like, just either stick to road or stick properly to mountain biking. Then when Tom wins, I'm like, actually, he does it quite stylishly. I think I'm just grumpy about a really big Dutch guy who just smashes it. I think mountain biking has always relied on characters coming into the sport, such as Dan Lloyd. I made a quick exit from mountain biking. You need to have character for this sport. I'll go to the road. You got some Sean Palmer, a snowboarder came into the sport. I'm really excited when Pidcock and Cole ride. Julie Furtado, she came in from skiing and road race too. I think it's great to have personalities come in to do it. Even when you watch Pidcock descending, you're like, wow, that guy has got some insane bike skills. I think he has claimed that he would do well in mountain bike. I've heard this quote. That definitely ruffled some feathers, quite rightly so, because I'd be like, you what? No, no, I had the same reaction. Then I saw him riding with Greg Minnaar and I was like, oh, yeah, no, yeah. He can actually ride really, really well on a downhill bike because I was like, yeah, you got carried away a bit there, pal, but fortunately, yeah, it might match up. That'd be interesting. Penarolo needs to do a downhill bike. Exciting, that'd be good. Do we need to talk about money? You mentioned earlier that they might be doing it for money. I think that's the other thing, isn't it? You've got racers like Nino who did crossover, but there's also a legacy of Evans and another XC pros, Ryder Heshtal, loads of road racers who've then, XC racers who've moved to road because that's where the money was. Is it the same? That's definitely the reason. I don't know how much Pidcock's earning, but it's likely to be five to six million euros a year and he wouldn't be able to earn that on the mountain bike, obviously. I would have a guess that if he could earn six million euros a year just doing mountain biking, he probably would. I really get the sense that he absolutely loves mountain biking and off road disciplines and having fun from that point of view and that road racing is much more of a chore for him. He doesn't like going for the general classification, for example, in road race because he just finds it boring to have to save energy wherever you can and not attack when it's stupid to do so. He did it last year at the World Tour and came third, so he's an unbelievable talent. I think he just wants to have fun on a bike, but you want to earn the money where you can whilst you can, right? Daniel, it's certainly not been boring having you on the show. Folks, let us know what your thoughts are of roadies racing in mountain bike events and also those subjects we talked about in this week's show about e-bikes and e-mountain bikes and the subject of trail access, which we'll pick up on next time.