Man United to bring Rashford back into fold?

This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, it's a continuing riddle with Marcus Rashford now. And the latest situation seems like he is heading for a reintegration at United. We asked the question how that will be done, how difficult it could be. What are the pros? What are the cons of Rashford being back in red? There's a question over that, Academy graduate. But a lot more of them put their cases forward in the Rosenberg route in Manchester United's preseason friendly. We'll have the details on that. And there's also been some controversy over United's action to restrict some season ticket holders' accounts. We'll also talk about that too. Hello everyone. Welcome along. Andy, Karl and Laurie all here. A nice simple topic to kick us off. Laurie, how difficult will it be to reintegrate Marcus Rashford if indeed Manchester United do decide to reintegrate him to the squad? Almost as difficult as you saying the word reintegration, I guess. That was the second attempt at the introduction. Yeah, I mean, I think this is the huge question right now, isn't it, for Manchester United because he's such a player of high status, high significance. And there's a lot of questions about what United are going to do on that left side. And is it going to be a left back, a left winger? That's what they've been looking at. Well, actually, does Marcus Rashford coming back, and does that then change the picture there? I think this is something that's been kind of bubbling along a little bit, obviously, since Barcelona decided to go for Anthony Gordon instead of triggering that loan option to buy for Marcus Rashford, which was the expectation. I think everybody, when that deal was signed, thought that Rashford would go to Barcelona, do what he did, which was feature significantly, not be a starter every week, but certainly contribute pretty well to a successful season for Barcelona overall. And then he would become a permanent Barcelona player. But that move for Gordon changed the picture. And then subsequently, Barcelona have signed Karim Adeyemi as well from Borussia Dortmund. So that even sort of the thought that maybe they could come back to the table later in the window, is this all be part of a negotiation tactic to get even a lower deal? And that should be then another sort of player in that forward line that seems to be totally gone now with that signing. So obviously that means that, are there other teams available for him? We can see that the clause in his contract that allowed him to go for 40 million pounds has elapsed. And so as the days and weeks have gone on, you're looking at it thinking, and people certainly around the picture are thinking that this reintegration could well happen. And it feels like that at the moment is the plan, right? He has three weeks off after being at the World Cup. And then I think you're getting to the Dublin week where United go away and then they play Leeds. On the Wednesday of that week. So that's when they're going to have a little camp and you expect Rashford at the moment to be around the team at that point. So yeah, I'm sort of hesitating to say confidently that he will pull on a United shirt again. That certainly felt like such a remote possibility previous to that point. But now it feels like actually that is a legitimate possibility. I think there will be a lot of issues around it just because of the way that he left the club. I think there'll probably have to be some talks about is he okay with coming back to United in that way? How does Michael Carrick see him? Obviously, Carrick is a different manager to Ruben Amerin. He's worked with him before. He's played alongside him. So you've got that relationship there already established. Certainly it's not going to be a case like it was under Amerin with the sort of sanctioning of this current executive team that there was a bomb squad and Rashford was part of that. And there was reasons for that. It's going to be a case of having a look at what his mentality is, what United want from him if he is to return and then sort of see how it goes once he's back. Because I think certainly it's going to be such a big story and there's more details that we can get into as this conversation develops. But it just feels like we're at now a point where talking about it is sensible because it could happen. Yeah, a lot to unpack in that answer unquestionably. Andy, I suppose the most obvious question to follow up is, is this now the most likely scenario as we talk Monday morning, just gone half past nine, that in two weeks time Marcus Rashford will be back part of Manchester United's first team squad? Yes, it is. Clearly so. I would have said in February, March, there would be a 5-10% chance of Marcus Rashford playing for Manchester United again. I'd say there's now an 80% chance of Marcus Rashford playing for United again. Even two weeks ago I would have said 50-50%. Last week I would have said 50-50%. And the reasons which Laurie's touched on lead me to say that on the 27th of July. The situation can always change but the way I see it at the moment is Marcus Rashford is going to come back, he's going to train with Manchester United's players and Michael Carrick would be open to using him again. It's a tricky one. What do you do? You know, he was successful at Villarón Low and he was successful at Barcelona. He wanted to stay at Barcelona. Canty Flick really liked him but Barcelona didn't trigger the option they had to sign him and nobody else has come in to try and sign him as well. So he's an employee of Manchester United. Do you put him out in a bomb squad again when actually he's gone away and he's done well and he's been professional? I was all over him playing for Barcelona. I didn't hear of a single thing that he did wrong. I think he arrived two minutes late for training one day and that's about it. He had a good season. So he comes back in and then that leads on to wider issues of how the fan base will take it because a lot of fans absolutely wouldn't like it and a lot of fans are more open to it. And then it's ever-changing. I remember Laurie and I stood outside the away end at Wolves a couple of years ago and you couldn't find a single United fan who wanted Rashford to play for the club again. Now how many people just beat him? 30, 40 and then four minutes into the game he scored and United fans are singing for Marcus Rashford. So wait a minute. Do you want it both ways? You can have it both ways. You just change your tune like that. Marcus Rashford starts playing for United and score him again. The narrative around him will change. He will be judged by what he does on a football pitch but I honestly thought his race had been run and I think he did as well as a Manchester United player but he's got a contract. The bottom line is he's got a contract at Manchester United. Karl, is it a good idea? Possibly. I think it depends on what version Marcus Rashford returns. If it's the Marcus Rashford who played very well on Derek Ten Hag in his very first season this is in theory a no-brainer. If it's the Marcus Rashford that looked very laborious under Ruben Amirim then it's going to get really, really difficult. Marcus Rashford is one of the highest paid players which means he's one of the highest paid players in the Premier League which means he's one of the highest paid players in the world. And at top form he is up there with some of the best left wingers in the world. The problem is he's not always at that level and when you factor in other things I'd say on the field so his relative lack of defensive effort things get really, really sketchy. So to bring in a player of Marcus Rashford back to Manchester United yeah, if you get him fit, firing at that top level fantastic. You get a brand new option to go along with Kunja you put less pressure on Patrick Dorgoo to play at left wing and you have new tools to help Michael Carrick achieve whatever he wants to achieve. If it's a football player who is somewhere close to how he played under Ralph Ragnick or how he played in the second season of Derek Ten Hag where he didn't seem to gel very well with Rasmus Hoyland then it creates tactical complications that I think quite a few Manchester United fans don't necessarily want. Look, I've been in Finland and I've been in Norway with Andy and I've had two or three Manchester United fans ask me is Rashford coming back and then they've given me their opinion on Marcus Rashford and the one that comes through a lot is if he comes back he has to make an effort. There is this there were two or three fans that just believe he just stopped trying towards the end of his time at United before he went off to Aston Villa at least. So he has to work I don't even think he has to score goals at the start that's always nice but it is going to be questions of what is he doing off the ball? Is his hands going to be on his hips? Is he going to be throwing his hands in the air when the referee doesn't give him a foul after he loses the ball? Is he going to chase that ball back? So I'm not going to say the door is back open it's more like a window at this current point in time but there definitely seems to be some you need to work on that relationship between yourself the dressing room and indeed the fan base. Yeah it's complicated. Laurier just looking at the sort of data for Rashford as well it's actually 19 months since he last played for Manchester United pretty much it was a 2-1 win at Victoria Pilsen in the Champions League he was taken off early in that game before the hour mark didn't have a brilliant match at all was then left out of the squad for the Manchester derby I think a few days later and he's not been seen again for Manchester United but actually across his time at the club I mean he's 13th in the all-time scorers list 138 goals he's scored he's only 12 off the top 10 he's 23rd in the all-time appearances list as well 426 appearances for United 103 off the top 10 on that list as well even looking at him during the time he's been away and we've established that the performances at Villa and Barcelona even during the World Cup for England there is a player there isn't there? There's clearly something there but is there too much water under the bridge? Did too much go wrong in that period before he left for Aston Villa that it just makes it too hard to make this happen and be successful? That's what I thought to be honest I thought there was a finality to the way that he left for Villa and then also to Barcelona and it just wasn't going to be that the Rashford story at United had been told circumstances change don't they? They develop and certainly there's been a lot of water under the bridge and that's why I say that the kind of reintroduction of him if it is to happen would perhaps need to have some openness of communication from I guess all parties an appreciation of the change dynamic for his status for United's desires and ambitions so for example you look at him for England at the World Cup and he still has that electric speed I think in moments and actually a clarity of thought certainly for that assist for Saka for example in the France game I know that was a crazy game where France decided just to play a ridiculously high line and Rashford was there to take advantage of that his goal against Croatia was really well taken as well though so you sort of think in moments if he's on board with it and obviously it shouldn't just be his call it should be United's absolutely and Carrick's but if that's how they would see him as a kind of impact sub when the game becomes stretched then obviously he's a threat so that's why I suppose this kind of concept of him returning as developed I still do wonder are they taking a different approach to last time where it was very clear that he was available and that then perhaps lessened United's position in negotiations like if he's coming back into the squad and they're happy to have him then if a club does want him they would have to actually significantly contribute to his wages that's the big thing isn't it who can actually afford the wages do United have to accept that they would contribute to a significant part of that for him to go but I think you'd already have sense that there would be clubs there for him at this point if that was the case maybe something develops and somebody gets injured and then clubs react to that and think he's a player that's achieved a lot been in the Champions League been in the World Cup so you don't have that issue of how would he feel under the pressure of going to a big club but you just wonder about the pool of options for him how big is it so that's why I think United have to take a realistic approach and that's why it seems like they are to looking at him coming back now obviously then the counterpoint to that is how much of a story he would be each week do United, are they comfortable with that it's difficult when you've got a contract 2028 when terms run out that this is going to be an issue until he even leaves permanently or he kind of is reintegrated and people are comfortable with it on the bench there's going to be a story about it if he's kind of selected behind say Patrick Dorgoo is he okay with that and it shouldn't just be his call like I say it has to be a collaborative thing that's why it's a very complex one very difficult one and I think that it'll continue to produce interesting moments as we go along and I think you are right about bringing up the records as well there's obviously certain targets that he could hit 100 goals I think is one of them and so is there a certain appeal there could you kind of get people behind that because I think the fans aspect of it as Andy's touched on there it's going to be fascinating to see who would be willing to sing his name again how fractured it got towards the end and you'd have to perhaps really push the point of him how much he did give to the club before those years and he shouldered the club clearly in times of great difficulty but yeah it's just I mean we could talk I thought we were kind of done talking about Marcus Rashford at United I thought that was it but here we are and I think it actually increased now given the way things have gone Yeah one thing in that that really stood out to me I wonder what your take on this is we've heard so much about the wage bill at Manchester United in recent times about signing footballers who really wanted to play for Manchester United not because they were getting the biggest wage offer necessarily but that there was a genuine passion for the club or a genuine ambition to play for the club of course the wages are still huge but maybe not as big as they could get at other clubs Rashford being used as an impact player seems to be an idea that quite a lot of people are getting on board with Laurie mentioned it a moment ago as well but if he is going to be playing like that sort of role there's going to be people ahead of him in the team who are paid maybe half what Rashford is currently on how much of a problem is that going to be? Depends what the players think United has snookered a little bit here because he does have that contract let's flip it another way Manchester lad United fan Marcus Rashford close to you know if he plays another 100 games he's in the top 10 all-time Manchester United appearance holders after the game in Wrexham last week I spoke to Sam Smith Sam came through the ranks at United with Marcus Sam was very very close friends with Marcus he still is very close friends and he's a big big advocate so if I ever wrote anything critical of Marcus it'd be on my case and most of the stuff I wrote about Marcus in his time at Manchester United was positive because for most of the time he was an influential player he came through right from scoring a hat-trick PSV when he was a kid in 2015 there were a lot of good moments but there were a lot of bad moments as well and Sam said last week Marcus can be one of the best players in the world when he's on form and we've seen glimpses of that we've seen seasons of that we've also seen months and seasons and we've touched on them like under the time under Ralph Rangnick when he's been anything but that I don't think there'll be a lot of patience from fans towards Marcus Rashford I don't think his situation is beyond recovery because if he's playing well and United are winning the mood changes around everybody football fans can change their tune like the wind I suspect Marcus is in a better place now than he was a couple of years ago private life he's seen how the other half live he's enjoyed himself he's maybe seen getting out of Manchester has probably been a good thing for him as well and there are pressures that come when you're a Mancunian playing for United that you will never have even if you're from Sheffield like Harry Maguire or let alone the lads who are from outside of the country and maybe he's been able to see his own situation with more clarity I think he could help himself with the media I think if there's some honesty from him where he said some of this was on me as well I think people would warm to that idea and some of the points he's made have been legitimate ones playing under numerous managers hasn't helped him being asked to change his style of play like that he has got some pretty serious advocates as well there's people like Paul McGuinness the former youth coach who would be massive supporters of Marcus Rashford but the fans who pay the money also know what they see and he got to a point where you had these memes of him failing to track back I think he was at Luton away in February 24 now I was in Pilsen in that December game and he was awful now he's not the first Manchester United player to have an awful football game but when that happens fans are entitled to be to be critical for so so long I would say in on here I've not completely given up on him and I still haven't maybe that's my personality I wouldn't put it beyond him coming back and playing and playing well because he has something none of us have he has got an incredible talent he's still fast I watched him closely at Barcelona his first touch wasn't the best he was surrounded by players who were technically better than him but wow he still got that speed his stats were good he could assist he could score he wasn't Lumine Mal who is? but he's still got something we saw little bits of it in the World Cup as well not all the time but we've seen bits of it and if he's fit United's left side is really interesting because you've got Patrick Dorgu you've got someone like Kunja who can play there as well you can have a season where you're playing a lot more games so Kunja is going to be rotated around the different systems Dorgu is still raw off his box you know I saw him in the mix zone last week in Helsinki I just laughed he said almost nothing and then he does goals like that goal at Arsenal whoa where's that come from and the way he talks I asked him about his time at Lecce yeah they just told the players give me the ball what is that? yeah just give me the ball because I'm better than him and I'll just score and in United looking a player on the left behind someone who can cover or compete with Luke Shaw because you've got a lot more a lot more games it's very hard while United have got Marcus Rashford to go out and buy someone who's further advanced it was only in December United tried to sign Antoine Semenya you know he would have played in that position so this is a moving feast all of the time but I think we're covering it between us all here you know we're talking about a subject which is potentially difficult but potentially still has a happy ending yeah I agree with Andy potentially still and if Marcus comes back and he's close to his best self however there's also things of how do you make sure Marcus is close to his best self? that's a big question it's a challenge that for Carrick isn't it? first things first he's got to stay fully fit Marcus can be an explosive athlete we're talking about his sprint speed how he looked really fast at the World Cup how he looked quite good during points at Barcelona he's got to stay fit he's got to look after himself and look after his body in a way so he can keep making those runs those attacking runs and four a's there's also for me you've got to look at the left back situation because Marcus's best seasons in a Manchester United shirt tend to coincide with seasons where Luke Shaw plays a lot of games now fortunately or maybe the thing that I'm always worried about and this is me guarding against it right now Luke Shaw played a lot of games last season which normally means he's not going to play as many games the season afterwards so who's going to play at left back? I think the left back situation if you retain Marcus Rashford or bring anyone else in at that left wing position is also going to be really important what happens to Dawgoo there Rashford coming back also brings this interesting situation with the backup centre forward do you go to market and try and convince someone like Danny Wolbeck to return or perhaps even talk to Ivan Toni when you've got someone like Rashford, Kunja and indeed Mbumo who can all offer something at centre forward in a pinch too so yeah absolutely things Marcus Rashford if he comes back he'll probably have to hold his hands up communicate with the fan base and what he's going to commit himself to doing we know he can be a bit of a gym rat and if he starts off as an impact player he very often ends up in a position where he becomes a starter towards the January period again something similar happened at Barcelona okay didn't work to the best to everyone's fan base to everyone's opinion there but there's potential there but it can't just simply be Marcus Rashford's back are we all right player, fan base, club all need to go Marcus Rashford's back here is what we're going to do to make sure this is good for everyone because when you're on a wage that large you've got to find a consistency you've got to find a way to make it work yeah there is a romance though isn't there to an academy graduate having a true renaissance at Manchester United and showing his best form at Old Trafford again I suppose the other side of all of this Laurie and you did touch on it earlier is it just a bit of a bluff that you can say all this and we can talk about all the pros and cons of him being reintegrated but actually ultimately it's just about protecting his value and trying to attract people in to buy him yeah I don't think it's a bluff because I think the reality is there because where does he go you know Bayern Munich we're in for Anthony Gordon he goes to Barcelona are they still in that market well they've got Luis Diaz 31 is he now so do they Marcus Rashford is 28 now is that the right kind of fit for them we haven't heard anything really recently on them looking at that situation again it could be something they revisit and clubs will realise that that Rashford thing is there if they want to do it late maybe it'll cost money but it's an option they can leave it later basically and where would it appeal to Rashford at the end of the day he's got this contract with United it's up to him where he wants to go ultimately and that was what the whole Aston Villa loan was about to show that he still had it so that Barcelona would then come to the table because Barcelona was his dream move and I think people probably scoffed at the idea didn't they when that was originally touted and actually it happened so he made it work and ultimately they didn't follow through with it so where could he go I'm thinking sort of out loud here would Roma for example they've got Manu Kone so does something work there where United could possibly offset a cost for that if they really wanted to do it versus Rashford going there you could present it to him as a kind of romantic move Rome and the Italian capital back in the Champions League so it'd have some appeal to him but obviously the cost of it I don't think Roma could get anywhere near the wages that he's on so United would have to take a hit there in some way AC Milan Lauri if you're talking Italy AC Milan if you're talking Italy you think yeah okay you think Ruben Amron would have him back okay sure yeah yeah thank you very very cheeky well imagine if he plays against AC Milan in pre-season that'd be an interesting one obviously later in August yeah is it all a negotiation we've been here before I think United have certainly learned from previous examples and maybe we'll touch on Alejandro Garnaccio later but it was clear that he was available did they get the best price for him probably on reflection maybe I mean they've got a little bit of a boost from the sell-on I think if the actual move goes through fully to Aston Villa for him but certainly in other cases the fact that they were so clear about players not being part of their future that just weakens your position so I think they've actually thought you know let's make sure that this bridge is being built here rather than burnt and then you know that puts us I think in a better position to move if something becomes available last point on this before we move on and talk about Rosenberg and a few other things Andy what do we know about his relationship with Michael Carrick because when you look at the history of the two together I mean Carrick was in the team when Rashford made his debut against Michelin back in 2016 and then against Arsenal a couple of days later of course scored twice in both of those games it's one of the best ever starts to a Manchester United senior career he then also started in the two Premier League games that Carrick had in temporary charge when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer left before Ralf Rangnick arrived in 2021 he came off the bench I suppose in the other game against Villarreal but you know certainly was a clear sign there that Carrick wanted to use him and would have coached him a lot before that point as well so what do we know about how they see each other? I think the benefit for both parties here is that they can start with a clean sheet of paper sure when Michael Carrick met Ole Gunnar Solskjaer in Trondheim a couple of days ago that he would have been asking him about Marcus Rashford for example it's his job to do something like that but Michael's got his own opinions and he's got the coaches around him if they see a player who comes back highly motivated you know these coaches have been in football for a long long time they smell bullshit if they see it they smell effort if they see it if Marcus is this highly dedicated player which Carl quite rightly said he can be if he's fit if he's motivated that becomes very clear within a couple of sessions as opposed to someone who is not and that gets you rewards and Marcus has got the talent which some of the other players have not got the hardest thing to do in football is to beat a man and he can do that he's got that in him and he can score and I don't recall many complaints when he signed that massive contract for Manchester United because he was effective but he could sour quickly if he's not playing I think Marcus has got to be aware of how he's perceived as well and he can use that as a good thing if he look if he knuckles down and works hard playing for the club he grew up supporting and from a family of United fans as well his brothers are Reds and then the situation can change pretty quickly if it can change in 10 minutes outside Wolves when people have got a massive downer on him wait a minute wait a minute you were just slaughtering him to me 20 minutes ago and now you're singing through yeah you know you know it's like I've had five pints whatever it can change and I think we've covered a lot of areas when we've been talking about him here and the bottom line is I do think he'll play for United again but Barcelona came back in for him I'm sure he'd be happy to go there I think it's to his credit that with those two loan moves first he did all right at Villa and then because of that Unai Emery who's a wise coach he became an advocate of Marcus Rashford so he was able then to tell conduits in Spain that yep we can you can do him it can work for you and then that helped get him the move to Barcelona where he was a success he wasn't a failure he won the league for Barca he played an important role in that team he wasn't the player of the year but he played an important role in that team and he had some fantastic moments the best one was at Newcastle away in the autumn and he had a couple of tricky months a couple of tricky games missed too many chances against Atletico at home but on balance you were marking him 7 or 8 out of 10 for last season and if United get that out of him next year I think everyone will be will be happy I think and that won't be the last time we talk about Marcus Rashford at Lorry there'll be many many other times won't there I'm sure as we head across this this pre-season and we see exactly what happens with him let's talk about something else let's talk about Manchester United winning 5-0 against Rosenborg at the weekend Karl you were there what should we have seen or what did we might what may have we missed from that game if we didn't see it this was a game where the academy players really came to the fore so United a goal up a half time only two changes at half time compared to the 11 changes changes Michael Carrick made in Finland so I think that's sort of getting a little bit more reps a little bit more under the belt Joshua Xherxey scored just a phenomenal goal like you know more commonly see on a futsal pitch really nice dummy feint and then dummy the goalkeeper again you're like oh I wish you could play at this groove in Premier League conditions but of course pre-season is pre-season the Premier League is something else but then eventually just I think just a little bit past the hour mark Michael Carrick makes eight changes young players come on and it is really really good I would recommend if you haven't seen the highlights try and get the extended highlights so you can see Harry Amasa's goal which is just tremendous the ball is worked all the way from the back short goal kick bing bing bing bing boom eventually gets to Jayden Camerson at one fullback does a low cross gets it to Harry Amasa at the back post and he taps it in and that is the sort of team goal you can imagine Michael Carrick wanting the first team players to score a little bit more and I think Harry Amasa had a very very good game Dan Gore played about 20 minutes he was very good as well Jacob Devani is a midfielder normally by trade and has mentioned this but he continues to play quite well in centre back roles as well these are young players that not all of them are going to be featuring for Manchester United next season I think two or three of them might be better off with a loan but they are now putting themselves in the conversation they're creating nice problems for Michael Carrick particularly someone like Harry Amasa who I think he is good enough I think he's good enough right now to be playing senior team football on a weekly basis I am not quite sure if he'd be better off getting a loan to say a top half championship team or if he should be better off staying at Manchester United and then playing Carabao Cup games FA Cup games all games where Luke Shaw slash Dortmund want to be rotated I put this out on social media and I got you know 30% say line him out 30% say keep him 30% go like mate it's just pre-season shut up so we'll see we'll see but the fact that there are players that are pushing themselves into this conversation Andre Santos again I think had a very good game and just the way he is the way he orientates himself and puts himself into positions to win the ball quite quickly should open up new midfield options for Carrick too so look it's pre-season it's pre-season in July there's still 13 players that need to come back from World Cup duty before I can really get the whiteboard out and start talking X's and O's but I will say from that 5-0 win against a Rosemoor team that are partway through their own league season it was the academy players more than anyone else so I went oh this is nice Shea Lacey got a start Andy as well we should mention that he got a goal as well what stood out to you? Shea Lacey getting a start and getting a goal that stood out to me he played as a 10 there's definitely something there I think he's one of the players I think most of them young players and he did well and Carl's right it was a nice afternoon crowd was lower than we'd hoped for 5 goals 5 different goal scorers miles better than 2 years ago when United played there and it was 0-0 in one of the worst games I've ever seen that was when they asked Derek Ten Hag which discos he'd been in in Ibiza last summer during the summer and he thought it was being serious and said no I did not go to the discotheque just having him over so it was a nice sort of sunny afternoon in Norway's third city I spoke to Toby Collier after the game he's a bright lad bit of a rarity middle class footballer how did the game go Toby? and he just starts analysing it tactically saying within sort of 5 minutes we knew what we were trying to do they were trying to do in midfield we knew that therefore then they just pushed the ball out wide and we knew that we had better players from them right alright anyway have a good day mate so it was good it was nice in the United have got a huge support in Norway lot of seagulls there Xerxe brilliant goal he'd be perhaps the player I would most expect to leave Manchester United there's definitely interest in him from from Italy why so few people? you know a third of the crowd from last time five or six reasons Rosenberg the host club I was told didn't promote the tickets very well ticket prices were expensive they usually are in Scandinavia Rosenberg are having a terrible season so there are hardly any Rosenberg fans Trondheim is not that big this isn't Oslo or even Bergen where United would have probably played had Norway's team not come back into Oslo to do a presentation following their World Cup exploits so certain venues were not available ticket sales are much higher for the next games where the opponents are more attractive Atletico Madrid and PSG in Stockholm the last game there two years ago was awful so if you bought a ticket two years ago you'd be thinking I ain't having that again so I think you had all of these factors and it's the middle of the holidays loads of Norwegians were out of town they also got a league game they've got a league game on Monday so they are there are quite a lot of fans well I'll watch my team play in the league later on they've just changed the manager of the family game you've also got the accessibility haven't you where there are a lot of Norwegian fans who can travel across to England to watch Manchester United in action in actual competitive fixtures whereas if you go to America or you go to the Far East obviously it's a lot a lot less accessible to supporters there but it was a low crowd even on the highlights watching through it it was quite stark how empty the stands were Jacob Devenney we've had quite a few emails mainly from Steve so thank you Steve we have been noticing that you keep emailing about Jacob had a great loan spell physically and tactically I think he's ready to be part of the squad as a fifth choice centre midfielder or maybe a good championship loan he has the leadership quality and in my eyes is Elliot Anderson light I truly believe in a couple of seasons time he could be as good if we manage his development correctly I mean Jacob Devenney he turned 19 last month hugely impressive young man scholar of the year last year speaks with maturity I don't know Carl were you there in a mix zone in Helsinki? It certainly caught my attention when he was talking what a really impressive young man he is and I think he played well too I think his dad was a professional footballer as well but it's not someone I'd be expecting to be getting into the first team he had a successful loan at St Mirren I think and loan again he's still really young but I suppose quite a few damn lads as he left the changing rooms the other day and just a great experience for them even JJ Gabriel who didn't feature just to be part of it just to see whoa there's loads of fans there there's big names there we're playing in a stadium we're playing in front of proper crowds and I also spoke to Michael Carrick and his whole sort of sense was slowly but surely this pre-season you know we're just building and building got a long time to build we train in the week and then these games are like an away game we go the night before we play we smash opponents by five and we're going to do the same at PSG and Atletico Madrid and then we go back and then we crack on and it's far less draining you've seen Chelsea and Arsenal in the Far East you know to Manchester United's credit that they've not done that they could have taken the money but they've not done that the playing against teams like Rosenberg this Rosenberg team's a shadow of the one of years gone by but they are still mid-season and I think it's been done pretty intelligently with stronger players as well them two starting 11s I don't think any fan who bought the ticket they might have grumbled about the ticket price and I get that but the starting 11s were really strong for Manchester United yeah the boomerang method definitely has its virtues I think it'll be it could play in very well in terms of player care making sure you reduce injury load and making sure no one's burnt out or mentally knacker before the season starts you're right with Jacob Jacob Devaney someone tell me off just ask an Irish person and looking at the Mayo is it winning in that All-Ireland final I think half of Manchester's Irish are from County Mayo that's what I've learned today it's all over congratulations to them yeah 11 defeats in the All-Ireland final six by a single point and then you've ended a 75-year curse that's what it's all about isn't it watching your team finally get it done one day I should end a 13-year curse yes back to my point about Jacob he is good and he definitely has potential and I was talking to Nathan Salt who gave me a little bit more information about how impressive he was to St Mirren and how he helped change opinions and minds about the virtues of first-team loans at St Mirren because he just gave such a good account of himself so he is good the question footnote I'd have is if you're that good why do you want to be the fifth choice centre midfielder at this current point in time you need to go out and start playing at a higher level than playing for St Mirren I don't mean that in a disrespectful way and try and be your first second or third choice centre midfielder somewhere else yes if you are Elliot Anderson-like it's very important that Manchester United do the good things so they can retain their Elliot Anderson-like rather than eventually watch that player get sold for 116 million somewhere else so these are nice problems these players have I know someone on social media pointed out that Daniel Armour if you squint and you take your glasses off he looks a little bit like a young Harry Maguire and this is the fun bit before the World Cup players come in you get a little bit more time watching these possible Manchester United players of the future and you're going oh wait look at that habit look what you're doing there I hear good things about how Brian Mbumo and Lenny Ioro and Mason Mount have been looking after some of the young players as well Mount was in the mixed zone and he said he now views one of his roles in the dressing room as to help some of the younger players because of his background being an academy graduate for Chelsea and how he wants to offer them guidance I think Mbumo and Ioro particularly paid special attention to make sure JJ Gabriel felt comfortable around the first team in Norway as well also Brian Mbumo thank you because you helped avoid me getting nicked in the boot by Joshua Xerxe in the tunnel at halftime so appreciate that mate I wish I had a video of that that would have been good to share wouldn't it? there's so many questions but we've still got so much to do so just quickly Andy can you round up the injuries because I think we've got a couple of updates on the status of Lissandro Martinez and maybe Mateus Delict as well yeah Lissandro is not serious and I'd expect him to be back for the start of the season Delict will take a little bit longer than Lissandro Martinez and I don't think he'll be back at the start of the season but hopefully soon after that his back operation was a success so that is as much as I know on those two Benjamin Cesco is back on the grass training and he's sort of bulked up and I think he'll slim down a bit as he trains more and gets more towards match fitness so pretty encouraging on all of those three you know it'd be nice to have Delict Delict's not played since last November but I think a back injury is something that you know can't be rushed and if he comes back he was an important player before that injury he started last season well and he seemed to have a rotation of one of those central defenders being unfit the issue was if it was ever two of them United have got five central defenders now so looking like we're going into the season with four with Delict soon to follow Okay a couple more things to round up before we finish the ticket situation and transfers as well so Laurie any new developments as you understand it for United in this window I mean the midfield market is still lively David Ornstein has reported about Real Madrid stepping up their interest in Rodri what that then means for some of their players leaving how do you see it? Yeah the Rodri thing has been bubbling along hasn't it and if that actually happens to Real Madrid then you think City would need another player we reported previously this summer that Enzo Fernandez was on their list you saw how he did for Argentina at the World Cup that's going to be an interesting reintroduction at Chelsea I guess does that mean you know that that does open the door to him to go there obviously reuniting with Enzo Maresca cost a lot of money clearly but then does that open the door to for example Alex Scott going to Chelsea we reported this week on Nethletic that they'd had a bid rejected by Bournemouth Bournemouth are insisting he's not for sale but it does then feed into the United picture where he's obviously been someone that they have looked at and it's sensed to me that you know ultimately the price feels like it's getting away from what United would be willing to pay I mean like I say Bournemouth are saying he's not for sale so you know there's maybe that point just to raise but equally if Chelsea have made a bid it's been rejected you know it'll be a significant bid so you know it feels like if he's going to go anywhere then Chelsea is the likeliest destination so what does that mean for United yeah obviously there's other options there in midfield perhaps I don't know Andy I know you've said about Chiomini before if Rodri goes there does that still you know you sort of thought that I thought that was over you know with the new contract being signed you obviously had a different take and maybe that then still comes to pass although obviously the financials of that would be significant again but United perhaps would be willing to commit more for a player that has obviously got the pedigree and history that he has than other players I mean sort of obviously in a different position but certainly one that United have done is Tinan Thompson who is the left winger 18 year old from Tottenham Hotspur which is worth sort of pointing out to people worth talking about because okay it's only you know a lower fee four million guaranteed plus four million in add-ons which United would certainly be happy to pay if they are triggered because it'd be first team appearances and it'd be therefore you know signing would be a success and it does sort of feed into the conversation that we're having about Rashford because you know he's a left winger right so he's 18 it's not expected that he's going to go into the first team but he will be around the first team picture you know training you know see how he lands has he got that kind of potential that Aiden Heaven came into the club with you know signed for 1.5 million from Arsenal you know nobody you know outside of Arsenal and United you set up really you know in terms of me you know knew much about him same thing with Thompson obviously then you sort of see this report so you go and wait and make some calls and from what I can tell he's a you know exciting player who does take people on Andy said earlier that it's the most difficult thing in the world to beat a player and that's certainly something that Thompson has shown in academy setups at least and so now have United been able to pick a player at the right moment who had a year left on his contract so the price wasn't as much as what it might have been in a different circumstance yeah it's a similar kind of setup it's the emerging talent pool that United have now got which is something that the new regime have kind of come in and said we need to be you know alert to this possibility it's a a guy called Sam Williams at United who I'm told is you know was integral to Aiden Heaven being scouted and brought to the club and then similar in Teenan Thompson's case he actually was at United for quite a while then left to go to Ipswich under Kieran McKenna and helped them get promoted into the Premier League and then came back to United and so these are a couple of signings that I think he's been you know involved in obviously it's a team effort then you've got to go and get the player on board and do the negotiation but in terms of you know putting the work in United have certainly done that with Thompson I think they're hopeful that he can be a similar player have a similar impact to Heaven because you know he came in with perhaps no real expectation and actually in the end he played I think 24 games now already for United it would have been more if he'd not been injured at the end of last season so I think if United get that kind of impact from him you know over the course of the next 18 months from Thompson then they'll be certainly very happy and that does I could say it feeds into all the other aspects you know you look at Crisanteo Somerville who United looked at earlier this season for that left wing position he's going to Al-Hilal for sort of £60 million or something like that so you know it's a big question if this kid can do it at United I'll show all the possible you know to Carl's point on Rashford you know sort of bringing him into the club all those kind of aspects will be handled well to make him have a smooth entry but you know if they've managed to do it again like they did with Heaven then it'll be a good thing for United I suppose someone who doesn't work at United but he's very seen in youth recruitment and he's impressed by what Manchester United are doing in a transfer window by the players they're bringing in I think there'll be more as well United are getting emerging talents for various reasons personal and professional from major rivals and United's budget is probably not the same as Manchester City Chelsea Liverpool's slightly different because they tend to put most of it into the first team so yeah I mean I'm sounding because you just do not know how youth players are going to turn out but Laurie's example there with Aidan Evan is a really good one and there's a scout in London Steve who it's about players' families trusting the club that they're going to that it's the best environment for their son that they're going to have the best shot of playing first team football of improving of having a pathway even if they don't make it to the first team to go on and establish themselves somewhere else the other players you mentioned left back Louis Orme absolutely someone Manchester United are interested in I wondered whether it's difficult to get a player out of Newcastle but plenty have left Newcastle United this year and that's because there's only Luke Shaw as an established left back and he played all the time last season but going into Champions League you need more cover there now Nusmaz Rawy can play there but you need another player there really so that's why Manchester United are looking at a left back United have got other options for other players you know they've been offered players midfielders from from Spain who are probably going to pass on because they've got no Premier League experience or experience outside of Spain I stand by everything I've ever said about him on this podcast even when people were going what on earth are you on about he's not leaving Real Madrid what are you on about well I again I stand by everything that I've said about him so Madrid need according to multiple sources I've spoke to yeah United have been interested in him long term he's been very happy at Madrid he's still very happy at Madrid Madrid are buying big and therefore according to multiple sources I've spoke to they need to sell big so who do they sell and what is Madrid so let me say Madrid what if the new manager has a different opinion to the sports director Madrid will if they're considering to sell him look at the DAF money going around in the Premier League and probably think we'll have a little bit of that I'm not sure Manchester United could be going to the DAF sort of money levels even though it's a player they absolutely have long admired and then you've got the wages as well I'm so here for the for the victory lap that you're going to do if this if this happens Andy I know you say still saying it's the heavily caveating it you know with financials obviously it does feel like every single podcast though you're like Aurelien Tuominy you're saying there's a chance every single time so he's got better at pronouncing his name so you know I had to do a couple of weeks ago I had to do it properly because I was quite rightly getting picked up on the incorrect pronunciation so yeah it's the fact you had three different versions and all of them were wrong that was the issue really I'm settled I'm settled on one now that's good I'm glad so we've made progress again he's very happy at Madrid but if a club don't want you and I've currently got no evidence that they don't want him situations can change there would be a lot of obstacles here as well right just to finish then we also need to talk about the ticketing controversy that there's been around Manchester United this week Andy a lot of people quite understandably pretty angry about what's happened for anyone who is not aware of this or for anyone who wants sort of more detail on it can you just explain from your side of things what's actually happened? It became a big story that didn't it so I started getting collared in Helsinki about 50 United fans had travelled over like proper hardcore people who go everywhere and a couple of them had had that email which I think a few hundred fans had got that email and I saw a copied email I didn't like it I thought it was quite accusatory in its tone basically saying you've been up to no good but offering no evidence please prove where you were and why you did this and why that and it was like you know what colour shoes were you wearing on the 22nd of March? 2022 Leicester away and how had you tied your shoelaces? I'm being slightly facetious here but it was really detailed and people were anxious when they got them because they didn't know what they'd done wrong and I think that United's view is there's an issue with ticket touting and they're trying to get to the bottom of that and I think some innocent people have been caught up in the crossfire of that and then it's just kicked off as a news story weird how it kicked off you know that was that was about last Saturday it was only on Tuesday four days later that my editor at The Athletic said can you dig into this for us so my lovely day in Stockholm was cancelled and I'm then gathering accounts from Manchester United fans who've had this this email don't know what they've done wrong they've appealed some of them kind of you know were completely savvy in how to appeal and had innocent explanations but they were annoyed because you know they're big fans of Manchester United and to get this email which again in its tone I think the tone was completely wrong and they're like what we've done wrong and some of them have been exonerated some of them have not heard back and also the sanction was quite serious it was we're restricting your facilities which is your season tickets you know you might not be able to apply for an away game ticketing is really complicated it's always been really complicated and I think United didn't do this right and that's why you've seen it blow up into the story that it has done I don't know whether you lads have spoken to anyone else in relation to this yeah a few to be honest and just sort of one of the themes of it was that this was done sort of after the season ticket money had been collected and so then that you know if you do get a ban you know that they keep the money and they can sell the ticket on or even do it to members on individual cases so I don't know if there's anything to that in terms of quite strategic yeah you pay your season ticket money and then you you know that's retained I'm not sure that that could stand up I think there's a bigger picture here there's a low trust between the fans and the club for many many reasons side issues such as is there going to be a new stadium has this been has there been full transparency around that and there's a fear there's a fear of loss from those who don't want to move to the new stadium about Old Trafford there's a fear that they won't be able to afford to go to a new stadium there's a general fear around ticket prices not just at Manchester United but at all the major clubs where supply is less than the demand that season ticket holders are not wanted that somehow the club would rather sell tickets for a much higher price to executive fans so season ticket holders feel under threat from the club's perspective they're like we've got a huge waiting list for season tickets and I suppose there's I said earlier touting what is touting what's the definition of touting there's a culture among United fans certainly among my friends if you have a spare you help each other out for face value there's no monetary gain from that is that classed as touting? I don't think that it is I like the fact that there's this culture which leads to the match going fans helping each other out counterpoint to that is people going why can't I ever get a ticket I've been on the waiting list for X number of years season tickets is it yours? Is it yours to do what you want with even if you don't go to games or is there another side to that as well so it's pretty complex again I think the club got it wrong with that first email the tone of it because you've got people who have been caught up in this who've done nothing wrong having to defend themselves against they don't know what the allegations that are put against us yeah it's very complicated certainly and there's lots of lots of detail in Andy's piece on the athletic on this a lot of supporters very unhappy about it so we'll see what develops in the future but that's it for Talk The Devils a lot covered in that about Marcus Rashford transfers, tickets the pre-season friendlies the academy graduates who are in contention to try and push for minutes as well I hope you enjoyed it I certainly did just sat back listening to it all it was worth spending the morning of my holiday listening to these three chew the fat about Manchester United and we'll do it all again next Monday as well just a couple more weeks left of the one-a-week podcast before we go back to multiple shows a week once the season gets a little bit closer but for the minute Carl, Andy, Laurie thank you so much for being with us thank you everyone for listening and watching along as well and we'll see on the next one take care bye bye thanks for watching this episode of Talk The Devils don't forget to hit subscribe if you've not done already like the video and also get involved in the comments too and click the bell to make sure that you never miss an episode with myself Andy Mitton Carl Anka and Laurie Whitwell there's also our social channels at TOTDevils on Instagram X and TikTok thanks for watching