Autism Speaks

Welcome, streamers. Thank you for logging on here on Unscripted. I'm Laura Moody. For years, autism was viewed as something diagnosed primarily in childhood. But today, growing numbers of adults, some in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond, are discovering they're autistic or they're otherwise neurodivergent. And many say the diagnosis does not change who they are, but it finally explains who they've always been. So today, we're talking with a therapist who specializes in autism about why more adults are being diagnosed, what it means for their lives, and how a late diagnosis can actually improve your mental health. Your well-being, our guest, Charnell Widnall, who is a licensed mental health counselor and owner of Autism Spectrum Counseling. Yes. Thanks for being here, Charnell. It's good to see you. Thank you, Laura. So this is an important topic, and I think one that's kind of underreported, but we're hearing more and more about adults later in life being diagnosed with autism or neurodivergent. So are there more cases out there, or are we becoming just more aware of it? Yeah. So we are absolutely becoming more aware of it. I think we're becoming increasingly aware of a lot of things. And so many autistics are great speakers and writers, and the internet is full now of information about autism, autistics speaking about their autistic experience. And so increasingly, there's just a lot of information out there for people to easily access now. And so this has a lot of people hearing about this and learning about it are increasingly going to their therapists or their doctors and asking about whether they might be autistic. And this has impacted the health profession because we are now also developing and understanding different ways of assessing for autism. So in the past, autism was assessed primarily based on observation of the external behaviors of a person. Right. And for people who don't know what, I mean, it's such a complex thing to describe too, the spectrum of it. Right. Right. And so when we, exactly, spectrum, in the past, there was one profile, if we could imagine that there are many ways to be human, there are many ways to be not autistic, there are also many ways to be autistic, because many aspects of our identity impact the way an autistic brain and body are expressed. And so in the past, we were really looking at one profile that was dependent on observation. So the assessment tools, if that, does that make sense? Like when a person would come in saying, I want to be assessed for autism, the doctor or the psychologist or therapist would be using an assessment that they'd been trained on that required them to only take note of external behaviors. Is the person making eye contact? How are they engaging with a toy? Do they ask me a question back? And now, because of this increased awareness of what the internal experience of autism is, assessment is reflecting that. So you really, when you do get an assessment, you want to make sure that the evaluator is trained and understands how to assess for or ask about that internal experience of autism. Especially because when you go to get evaluated, it might be three hours that you're meeting with somebody. So it's very easy to kind of, maybe for those three hours, not engage in your typical behaviors. For somebody who doesn't know what autism is, or is trying to learn about it, can you give me some of the hallmark features of it? Yes. So, you know, there's different parts to the diagnostic criteria. Starting with part one, we're looking at somebody who has differences in communication, and these differences in communication impact their ability to make and maintain relationships. So some differences in communication, the person might be perceived as being too direct. The person might have difficulty making sense of something within the context of a situation. So applying context to what somebody said. The person might have difficulty understanding some non-verbal gestures or difficulty expressing those non-verbal gestures in communication. So the next part of what we're looking at is somebody who has what we call, I don't know if you're familiar with the term, special interests. Like a unique, fixated interest in one particular thing. Yeah, a tremendous passion for something. Something they could spend hours engaging in. Tremendous focus. So all humans have interests, but for autistics and ADHD-ers also are very, they're more interest-driven, if that makes sense. And let me, because you have treated several high-profile professionals in the Bay Area, very high-functioning. And I think, is it possible that that kind of interest is what, how can it go under the radar? A hundred percent. So under the radar would look like somebody who has a special interest that is socially appropriate. And voila, it's also aligned with a career. It's like you're a CEO who's amazing in math or statistics. Exactly. Exactly. So it's, you know, and that's why a lot of girls have been missed also because they're, again, the special interests are more, like, appropriate. For example, if we have a birthday party and there's a boy who's sitting in the corner of the room lining up trains versus a girl who's sitting in the corner of the room reading a book, right, one might kind of bring to us the idea of the stereotypical autistic more than the other, but the function of reading that book and lining up the trains might serve the same, like, purpose for that person. So yeah, a lot of misdiagnosed because, and if we want to get back to the, you know, kind of the autistic experience, we have special interests, we have sensory experiences that are different. Touch, smell, sight, all of those things. Yes. We've seen a lot of theme parks now integrate these sensory rooms. Yes. So what is that? It just becomes too much? It becomes too much and it can be cumulative also. So, you know, the person might be able to handle it initially, but then all of a sudden it's too much. The person's unable. So it can be confusing for the people around them because, well, you were fine five minutes ago. Why are you not okay now? Or the child or the adult might be able to hold it together at school or at work, but it's like they've run out of their gas. Their battery is depleted. Their social battery is just done. Exactly. They've got no more. And so when they come home, they have to really disconnect from any expectations of like showing up for others. They really have to, I call it like turtle up. They have to go in their shell. So I recommend to parents, like when you pick your child up from school, like don't ask them how they're doing. Like they don't. Yeah. And I know as parents, we are dying to know, is my child okay? Right. But that is, it's too much, right? So just allow them to come transition in and let them in that now safe space, like yeah, rest. And you think about for all of the people who have been diagnosed later in life, they were dealing with all of these things at the school, in the school years, in the high school years, in the formative years. I mean, it's, it has to be very hard when those signs go unmissed. Very hard. So what I want to talk about over the next couple of minutes is how one might go about knowing if they are autistic or if they are neurodivergent. What are some of the things you're asking yourself? Yeah. So you might, I mean, this is kind of a, I have to remember that not everybody knows all the information I have. So sometimes I'm thinking like, this is basic, but maybe it's not. But we definitely want to talk about wellness and living well with the diagnosis because it's not a setback. It's an opportunity to understand who you are and where you're headed. And so I just love this topic so much. Okay. Stick around. Sharnell Widnall, licensed mental health counselor who specializes in treating adults with autism. We will be right back. Welcome back here on Unscripted. We are with Sharnell Widnall, who is a licensed mental health counselor. And we're talking about the impact of a late diagnosis of autism. Some people in their forties, fifties, even their sixties are being diagnosed with autism. And it has been a game changer, not necessarily because they know more, but because they're now able to facilitate that as part of their diagnosis. So Sharnell, thank you for being with us. Before the break, we talked about ways to know if you are possibly autistic or what are some of the reasons people would come to you for an autism? Yeah. Processing assessments, trying to understand how to make sense of this. So often people come to me when they are what we call in burnout. So at a young age, autistics often develop this capacity to just keep going. It's like they've got a part of them that will just, despite the hardship, just push and push and push. And it's like you keep, I don't know, using your cell phone, but you're not recharging it. You know, sometimes people can go a long time doing this. And then at a certain point, despite not wanting to stop the push, their body actually says no more. And so they, they start to, you know, experience sometimes some physical symptoms and tremendous exhaustion. And so people are often coming to me at that point when what they've been doing is just no longer working. And so they're, they're recognizing they have to change and they don't want to change because they recognize that the reason they've been pushing is because it's helped them maintain their careers. It's helped them maintain their relationships. So to, you know, to sometimes people will come and, and, and they'll say, I got to change, but I can't. I'm dialed into this life. I love this. So what do they do? What do you tell them? Yeah. So we try to start with what I call like some like low hanging fruit of just like, are there some spaces where you can get a little bit of recharge? Are there some spaces where like a little modification or accommodation could make a situation or a time in your day a little bit easier for you? So that's where we start. And sometimes there are some sacrifices that people have to make. And it's, it's, it's really, really tough that we often are looking at trying to get family support also. I mean, some people just have the capacity to make more change in their life than others, right? You know, if you're supporting a family you know, there's you have children, you know, it's, it's, it's hard. It's very hard. So I try to really understand what matters most for this person. And then it's just like really brainstorming and trying to figure out how to help this person design a life that helps their body and their mind be able to be their best self despite some of the, the hard stuff that they have to do. And you work with a lot of clients in this capacity. I mean, you have an example of one for, for us that you can share without giving too much away. But just to kind of illustrate and highlight what this looks like in real time. Well, you know, two, two, two examples came to mind that were really awesome to witness. One was somebody who wanted to not just like survive, but he wanted to thrive. And I mean, that's ultimately where we're all going with this. And so he started looking at his career and recognizing despite having a really lovely career that it wasn't really autistic friendly. And so I got to witness him, you know, make Excel sheets and figuring out what would be the best way to like, you know, what would be the best career given all his traits and who he is. And he, I, you know, identified a career and was able to prepare for that and totally do a complete change and a complete life turnaround. Yeah. So he was, yeah, he was above 40. So over 40. Yeah. Yeah. And I also got to witness a woman who, um, had earlier in her life decided that she wasn't going to be able to have children, uh, despite wanting to be a mom because she had that, um, difficulty that I talked about going into that burnout, that push, push, push, push, push to collapse. And, um, you know, when you collapse that impacts work, that impacts relationship, uh, impacts everything. Right. Right. And so she had an earlier age, had understood, well, you know, this is the way I guess I am. Um, and so I'm not going to be able to have children. And when she learned that she was, um, autistic and we started to work with what that meant for her self care and how to go, how to be able to recognize the signs that you were pushing yourself too hard and you needed to step back. Um, she was able to get to the point, um, where she decided that she could have a child. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So a level of self acceptance. Yeah. Right. And so what, how do you see the diagnosis? I mean, you know, even if you could go back 10 or 20 or 30 years and get there, there were just weren't a lot of foundational things to help. Now there are, but once these people have a diagnosis, how does that translate into their day to day life? Is it relief? Is it finding a way to show yourself a little more grace? Uh, yes. It's like the first part is, can we, if there are some changes that are helpful for you and don't aren't, don't sacrifice what matters most to you, let's see if we can make those, those changes. Um, and so for example, you know, when you get home from work, instead of saying, I got to clean the house, um, or, and I got to make dinner, um, maybe saying I got to take a hour break and get myself in my bedroom and just totally zone out. Um, and maybe that means I've got to, you know, for some people, they have the resources, they can pay for food to be delivered or right. They can pay for somebody to clean their home. So sometimes like for people, for professionals, I say, this is just part of the, you know, this is part of it. You gotta, you gotta pay. If you can pay for something, pay for somebody. Um, so, and then there's, there's pieces where there might not be any accommodations. There might just be like, you know what, that's really hard for me. Um, and so yeah, having that, that understanding of why you think that's the biggest thing here is that as humans, as intelligent humans, we want to know why something is hard or we want to, right. We want to understand ourselves. And when we don't understand why, when nobody's given us a reason that really makes sense, at a young age, we come to these conclusions about ourselves. Yeah. And these conclusions are often not very kind. Why don't, why do I stick out? Why am I not like the other kids? Why does, why do sounds bother me? Why do? Yeah. Yeah. And these conclusions often hold a lot of shame. And so, uh, yeah, the, the, the, the relief that comes from, I mean, every autistic I've ever worked with, once they learned about autism, it was like, oh yeah. And, and many have been given many other diagnoses. Women, you know, girls are bipolar, personality disorders, and certainly autism can be co-occurring with something else. But, you know, quite a few of the people I've worked with said, you know, it never really landed. I'm not opposed to being bipolar, but it never really resonated with me. But when they hear about, when they, you know, start to say, I think I'm autistic. It's like, it just, everybody, it's like, uh, it's like that, the key that works. It's like, that makes sense. Right. Yeah. And it's gotta be, but it's life changing. I mean, for the people who have these diagnoses, and it maybe is a way to explain to the people in their lives, to how and why they react, a level of understanding about your own self. Yes. And so that can be tremendously helpful to bring the families and for the families to understand more deeply about the individual's experience. But, um, and, and oftentimes the families, uh, will also say, oh, that makes sense for myself as well. Yes, I have those traits as well. Or they'll think of their parents, the grandparents, right. And so it really can become a whole family beginning to process where your eyes are opening up and you're, yeah, now that's not always the case. And I know there are people maybe listening who have said like that. Yeah. That was not my, the case for me. No, certainly. Yeah. But, um, you know, that in, when we're lucky, the family is right there and, and saying, oh God, that makes sense. And I, and I wish so much. I had understood this about you earlier. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing too. Okay. Stay with us. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk about some of the mischaracterizations and some things that you really wish people would stop doing. Okay. All right. Stay with us. And welcome back here on unscripted. We are talking about an autism diagnosis later in life. We have Sharnell Widnall, who is a licensed mental health counselor, uh, who works with neurodivergent adults, many high performing, high functioning. Um, and so she's here to talk to us about a few of the misconceptions. We've talked a lot about autism and some of the things, some of the beauty in it, some of the setbacks, but some of the joys that can be there. What are some of the biggest misconceptions you would like to see go away today? Yes. Uh, the biggest misconception is that autistics do not have empathy. Um, and so that became a stereotype a long time ago, I guess. Um, and it has, since the stereotype came up, um, been better understood that actually, I mean, many autistics that I work with, you know, we're sharing that they have hyper empathy, which is actually that they're feeling so much. Um, and sometimes there's maybe not a, you know, an understanding of why the person is experiencing, um, you know, uh, when we're experiencing the empathy toward another person, we might not know why they're experiencing that little level of emotion, but that emotion is definitely felt within the person. Why is it perceived that they don't have empathy? Yeah, that was a stereotype that was just spread along a long time ago. There is an affect though. There's some, there's some sort of, yeah, that's okay. So I want two things. One, um, there was research that came out and I don't know the year, it was more so recently that was speaking to, that was showing that, um, when we cross neurotypes, so for example, when we have an autistic, uh, trying to understand a non-autistic, that autistic is going to have greater difficulty understanding the autistic than they would another autistic. So within the same neurotype, autistic to autistic, tremendous empathy within the neurotype of not autistic to not autistic, tremendous empathy. But when we cross the neurotypes, right? And so what non-autistics or listics is another term for that, but when non, what non-autistics don't understand is that just like they think that their autistic partner, uh, does not have empathy. Well, guess what? Uh, you also don't have empathy likely for your autistic, uh, partner. I don't know if that, if I'm, what I'm saying makes sense, but, uh, very, very often I've had partners, non-autistic supposedly partners of autistics come to me concerned that their partner does not understand them. Uh, but it's very clear that they actually don't understand their partner either. So it goes both ways. Am I making sense with that? Yeah. Yes, you are. Okay. Okay. So that is the biggest misconception you'd like to see is that there is no apathy or there is no empathy. Uh, yes, that actually autistics have what we consider many, not all, you know, autistics are human also, and just like non-autistics sometimes lack empathy. So do autistics, but, um, many autistics have a tremendous amount of empathy, but you're not they're going to express it differently. Okay. So you're not going to see, um, maybe the autistic coming over and patting the person on their shoulder or handing them a tissue or saying, um, I guess what we might stereotypically consider like words of traditional, like, oh, you know, oh, I'm so sorry that you're feeling this way. Right. Um, and, uh, so empathy is expressed differently. Um, one way that empathy is expressed is, um, by sharing a story that reflects that really paints the picture to help the other person understand. I really get you. So if you just told me that something happened to your dear pet, right. I might share, uh, an example of something that happened to one of my pets. Yeah. It's almost like to paint that picture as opposed to just saying, oh, I don't mean I, oh, I'm so sorry that that, I don't know, that happened or something. Right. So really painting, uh, the picture. Yeah. All right. We got to wrap it up here. Um, so what we want to do is if somebody out there is watching that's feeling like this, what's the first step that they need to take? Yeah. We're at, we're at a time. So, um, Dr. Anna Neff, N E F F, uh, has a great website called neurodivergent insights that I would recommend. She's got some books, plenty of content, and they're also welcome to go to my website, autism hyphen spectrum, hyphen counseling.com and contact me. We do free 20 minute consultation calls. If we are not a good match, if we're not a good resource for support for the individual, I always take the opportunity to help them find, um, the resources that will help them wherever they're at. Wonderful. Okay. Sure. Now, thank you so much for being with us and thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time right here on unscripted.