Get PAID to Yap on Social Media (Strategy Sesh ft. @higherupwellness +@trainbloom)

What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the episode of the Travis Makes Friends podcast. On this episode, a unique episode that we have coming in hot. This is gonna be kind of a mini-sode with Tony Coffey, new friend, and my old friend, Michael Smoke, higher-up wellness. Welcome, guys. Thanks for doing this. Thanks, man. This is fun. I'm glad you're here. I like your setup. Such a nice surprise. Well, listen, we have a limited amount of time with both of you, and Smoke and I have talked fitness and wellness a bunch on a couple of the episodes. You and I will focus a lot on fitness and wellness and stuff on our episode, so I figured on this one, talk a little bit about social media. Both of you have had pretty wild success with social media, millions of followers across multiple platforms, but the thing that I found really interesting is that you have two completely different styles. You obviously spend a lot of time. I heard you on a podcast say that you'd spent half a day on one video one time, several hours, the Diet Coke video. Oh, that took weeks, to be honest with you. So weeks. Okay, even more. That was a funny story, but yeah. Yeah, so we'll get into that in a second. And then, Smoke, you're sort of famous online for just take out your damn camera and record something and post it. Don't worry about anything. But you both had amazing success with that. So I want to start with you, Tony. Just tell me early stages of this. What did content creation look like or mean to you when you started? Yeah, I mean, I probably got my start. I'm curious when you did yours, too. In 2021, I'd probably say, when TikTok started to become not just the dance thing after COVID. It was like the prominent platform. Yeah, I had some of my best friends who were also clients, Kirstie and Hannah, out in Atlanta, actually, who were like, yo, you should put your stuff on TikTok and make videos. And I was so resistant to that for like, it had to be at least six months. Because of all the normal reasons? For all the normal, just starting out, almost, I don't want to say a joke platform, but when it started out, when you were an adult, it kind of was. You were like, it was embarrassing to show people that you had TikTok or ask someone if they saw that TikTok video. That's true. You were kind of like, oh, shut up. Almost like politics now. Yeah, like, what are you, 14? Exactly, that's what you were afraid of. So I was like, gosh, it's so embarrassing. But I'm like, you know what? It was in a cool phase of my life where I was starting to try a lot of new things. And I'm like, I thought that was the coolest part about TikTok. Worst case scenario, it shows it to nobody. I think that's why I was afraid to post it on any of my personal accounts on Instagram when I first started. It's because I'm like, what are these people going to think of me? The people I went to school with, my family, all this stuff who knows me as this thing. Like, they're going to see me try to be something different and they're not going to like it. Even though that was mostly probably in my head. I know that's probably not the case. But it got rid of that fear where I'm like, okay, worst case scenario, I shoot a video, sound like an idiot. TikTok shows it to 100 random people that I'm never going to meet in my life. They're not going to remember it. Like, it was a very low risk, high reward scenario. And it was probably like my 15th or 16th video that just blew my sock. Like, I was, I think it was, I was getting like a thousand views, maybe if I was lucky. And on 16 or 17, it went to like 18 million and I was losing my deadline for like a week straight. What was it, the same strategy from day one? Like, were you really thoughtful, careful in scripting it out and doing the whole production process? I was intentional, but not nearly to the, like, I became obsessive with it just because I've been pretty good at pattern recognition since I was young. Like, I don't have a lot of strengths in traditional areas, but pattern recognition is one that I think I stand out on. And once that video hit and went viral, like, it sounds cheesy to say, but it was the first time, kind of felt like taking a drug. Like, it was, I was refreshing it every 30 seconds. Me and my best friend on the couch. And it was just, it was addicting. You were like, oh my God, who's going to do it? Oh, Trisha Paytas liked it. Or like some random name, like, oh my God, I was losing my mind. And I became addicted to getting better at it and just studying it. And at first it was very, like, low. It was hold the phone up, maybe set it up and make a couple cuts if I said something stupid and would throw it out there. And then as time went on, I started to treat it more like, I don't know, I got a lot of inspiration from like really good movies and filmmakers or documentaries. And I started to really appreciate the art side of it and kind of lean into that. And I think that's what got me today to put a lot more effort and intention into each video compared to when I first started. If that answered it. That's probably how I got to where I am today. Yeah. Same question for you, Smoke. Almost identical, just two years later. March 7th, 2023 was my first video. I told you in the podcast, you and I shot right before this, that I found out that on the TikTok desktop app, you can sort by oldest. You can't do that on your phone. I didn't know that. You can go back and watch your first video on the TikTok computer. I don't watch it. In fact, let's do that right now. It was a surprise. We've got it right here on the phone screen. Can you pull that up, Jamie? Sorry, wrong show. But I went back and I was- That was next week. Yeah, I was viewing them and they were bad and I cringed, but that's exactly what happened to me. It was 1,000, 200, 100, 1,200, and then all of a sudden my 15th video, Protein 101, How Much Protein Do You Really Need? I know, I was like, the same time, hit a million views in like two hours. Apparently everyone didn't know how much protein they really needed and I solved the big problem in the market with that video. But that's exactly, I remember sitting up in bed with my girlfriend at the time and we're just refreshing and it's 300, 400, 1,000, 2,000 followers, 10,000 followers and it is a drug. Not only are those apps designed to be dopamine factories to addict you, but it's a crazy ******* feeling. And it was the same video style that I do today in terms of talking head, sitting in my car. And it just blew up and everything changed from there. I became addicted to doing it and I became very, very interested in just posting every thought I had and it seemed to work. And that was the process. What do you guys both feel? And we'll keep it intentionally to health, wellness, fitness space for now. What do you feel people are doing incorrectly in their content that you might see a video and go like, oh, this is not going to do well because of X, Y, Z? I think you're a way better student of the game. I'm curious what you've seen because you do study this stuff. If I had to nail it down to one thing that I look at when I see most people, it's starting a video by telling someone that they're wrong or honestly kind of treating people like they're idiots if they ever believed in this thing. You believe in keto, how are you stupid enough to believe in that in the first place? I'm not joking, people start off a video by saying you're wrong and here's why I'm right. When's the last time you ever had a disagreement with your girlfriend, your wife, your fiance, whoever, and you had a disagreement and you just come off the hook and you're like, you're wrong, I can't believe you're stupid enough to believe in this and here's why I'm right. And how often does that end well? Never, you don't start by saying you're wrong. What do you do? You start by meeting them somewhere in the middle, empathizing and seeing it from their point of view, realizing that most people are not stupid. I know the internet makes it seem like, oh my God, the whole world's an idiot except for me. It's like, no, most people, at least I believe, are pretty smart, they're pretty capable people. You have to be somewhat capable to survive, honestly, just today at all, to make ends meet, to pay your bills. You have to be somewhat capable and most people are. So if you just come off the cuff and tell them that they're wrong without first trying to see it from their point of view, no one's going to listen to you. No one's going to stay and listen because they'll just write it off. No matter how much logic or evidence or reason that you have, they're not going to even give you the chance to be heard because you're refusing to start on the other side. I think that's where I see most people go wrong. Yeah. Yeah, you do a really good job of that, actually. I'm thinking about how the way I've heard Tony structure some of his hooks, there's a lot. So in the speaking world and the teaching world, like you alluded to, using a lot of you language can be divisive and put people's defenses up. You're wrong, you need to listen, but more I, we. So something I could think of you saying, we've all heard that diet soda is bad for you because I know you've made a video somewhere in this realm. We've all heard that diet soda chemicals are bad for you, but what if we were wrong? That kind of hook just keeps people's minds open and that's how he talks to his audience, which instead of attacking with a divisive you're wrong, like he said, and putting their fight or flight up, you open up the idea to what if we could just entertain this and then you make it a team effort. What if we were misinformed about the harmful impacts of diet soda and then you dive into the animal studies that show dose makes the poison? That is something I see a lot too is there's a lot of people with great information, but simply put, they kind of just come across as arrogant pricks that they're trying to just force their ideas upon that person and not actually help anybody. So I would say creators who can make less you statements and more I, we statements, I used to struggle with a lot of self-doubt, here's how I overcame it. And not you struggle with self-doubt because you're an idiot with no confidence. I'm going to listen to one of those more than the other. Yeah, it's a team effort. It also opens up the door to an actual relationship with the audience, right? Cause like, you know, to play devil's advocate, somebody might be like, oh, well that's the reason it's going to get a lot of views because I'm being polarizing and I'm accusing blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you might get some views. Maybe it might work to some extent, but if all the views are from people who hate you because you're a dick, that doesn't really do much. You know, it's better to have an audience of 10,000 people who love you than it is to have an audience of a hundred thousand people, just because they watch your ---- easy to make fun of it. Yeah, I'm so convicted on that topic, man. I made a video and a story about this yesterday. I was reading the book of Matthew and there's a verse in Matthew where Jesus says, the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. And out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth flows and the mouth speaks. And I think there's a lot of creators who create reaction-based content where they're exclusively negatively reacting to and criticizing other creators. And a lot of the points they make are valid. But energetically, you talk about things I see creators doing wrong, they're fostering a community off of inherent negativity and hatred. Not only is there not a lot of longevity in that, I think it's universally just bad for the world to do that. And a lot of times it's a deeper issue of the heart and hatred disguised as social justice. That person you're talking about might be a jerk, they might be wrong, but you're also kind of a jerk for tearing down another human being, whether you are right or not. I would encourage creators to build platforms off of education, inspiration, and aspiration. Because you can get click and rage bait. We see creators that are blowing up just shredding other people. But that's not something that I wanna see. It's like a specific random person. It's a specific random creator. It's an arc that people have followed, I've found. Yes, and I hate it. All they do is basically name a famous creator and then talk bad about them. It's like, like you said, even if you're correct, it's like, is that really what you wanna be known for? Is that the example you wanna set for your kids or for a future generation if you don't have kids? Is that really what we need more of is this public tearing down of people who are just out there probably trying to do their best? Like it's just, it's not called for. It's not needed. We were talking about this at the dinner we had when you had first moved out here. I get more scared, honestly, not to empathize with the people we're saying are not good, but I'm like, if that's what you're doing, you're kind of reinforcing this habit of looking for the worst in people. Like you're always trying to find where did they slip up? Where can I turn this or twist this or get the angle that they are a bad person? And I'm trying to think if that's what you're doing on a 24-7 basis, what does that mean? How do you feel? On the inside, you're going to feel like ----. On the inside, and it's a projection, honestly, at the end of the day, probably, but it's a nasty game to play too because it's easy to off-write them. You're like, oh, these people are just, they're trying to put bad out in the world. It's like, well, yeah, but it's not, I don't think they're intentionally trying to be bad. It's coming from a different place, but it's a hard thing to balance. Also, you better never mess up then. Do you know what I mean? That's my thought all the time. Yeah, exactly, because as soon, if you're the person that's built an audience calling out people for their mistakes, you better believe that the second there's something that happens that's somewhat controversial in your life, you're going to be attacked by everybody. And again, it's like, do you want to, do you want that? This doesn't make any sense to me. It's like, it's not, that's what I appreciate about creators like you guys is that it's not about just getting views. You know what I mean? It's about actually adding useful information and the cliche of adding value to people's lives, but that's truly what it is. And then you both think about it from a long-term perspective, right? So, you know, tell me a little bit about your relationship with your audience, like in terms of how do you view trust? Where on the value hierarchy is trust with your audience? Oh man, I think I want to be doing this until I am 50, 60 years old. The goal is not just to make TikTok videos for the next year. And my dad said, once you only get one shot at blowing your credibility and it's gone forever. And that's why one thing I think of, and I want to encourage creators listening to this, and it's not talked about enough, is the brands that you partner with. A lot of people want to get on social media to make a living. And so they'll jump on the first brand deal they get. And maybe it's kind of a shitty product, but they're making a decent amount of money or they just want a little bit of money. And then they become this billboard for brands because they're constantly taking brand deals. So when it comes to my audience, I'm big on responding. So I respond to DMs every single day. Whether it's questions or just a thank you, I try to respond to at least three to five. I'm in my comments, responding to people, and I frequently go live so that I can connect with them in real time and talk to them. And so I think that that builds real community. And now I can see, by memory, I have 50 or 100 usernames that are consistently interacting with me. That's how you build a legitimate audience, people that trust you and want to learn from you. So that's the approach I take. And then every decision I make with brand partners and in my business, I ask, is there the potential to compromise my trust with partnering with this company, investing in this company or making a video or designing a product? And you and I talked about that and the brand deals you take on and how long you waited to partner with somebody. This year, I think, was the first one I ever did, yeah. And you've been creating content for five years. And it's a great brand deal. And it's one that's super aligned because you waited. So I would tell creators, wait. Wait as long as you can. If you don't know if it's long enough, go longer. Wait longer, be like, I don't know if it's like, go longer. If you're not sure, it's not the right time. Seriously. It's not a 99% of the time thing that trust is there. Like in a relationship, you don't want someone who you can trust 99% of the time. In any relationship. I'm faithful 99% of the time. But one person's like, that's pretty good. It's like, no, trust is not a 99. It's like, you need to be 100%. And I think now more than ever, they can see it instantly. Even if they're not consciously thinking about it, they know when someone's trying to pull one over on them. And it's also, I mean, I'm coming from like, I guess, I guess in a privileged sense, because I did coaching on the side. So I could afford to not partner with brands. You know, some people, that's just what they go for. And like, that is their main revenue source. And it's hard. So I'm like, it's easy for me to say like, just wait, just wait. Where it's like, okay, rent's due on the first. You know, like that's going to happen. But I do think it's advantageous to set yourself up in a position where like, you're not counting on that. That you don't need to rely on it or be attached to it. Because trust is more valuable than, someone could offer you a million dollars. And if it's the wrong deal, I still think if it compromises your trust, it's not worth it. It is not worth it at the end of the day. It's worth more than anything. It's, that's why I say audience building is just building relationships at scale, because it's the, you wouldn't do that in an interpersonal relationship. No, you know what I mean? Like you wouldn't like try to sell your best friend on some like, you wouldn't like be trying to sell your best friend on a timeshare. Just because you're going to make a referral commission on the timeshare thing. It's like, oh yeah, like this is going to be awesome. You know what I mean? And then you're going to go home and then they know that you fucked them over. You're not going to be at the timeshare. Yeah, exactly. Like you wouldn't treat interpersonal relationships like that. So don't treat your audience like that. And don't be surprised if they leave when you do treat them like that. It's just looking at things short term instead of thinking about it in the long term sense, which both of you guys think like that. Like you said, if you want to be doing this for any length of time, you owe everything that you have to the people who are willing to give some of their attention to you. Everything. They could be doing literally anything else with their time. Yes, you owe everything as a creator to the people who watch you. And I cannot stress that enough. Someone, a friend of mine asked me if, and you deal with this, because you're a massive creator, if it was, this is just what it is. And when you help build an audience and people know who you are and you're recognized in public, right? It happens a lot in places like this where there's a fitness culture, you're a fitness creator, they're going to see you. They'll say hi. Some people will talk to me for 20 minutes, 30 minutes. I will always give somebody that time. Always. Because I literally don't have a job if you don't take time out of your day to listen to me yap about something. That is an insane gift. The most precious thing that somebody can give you is their time. It's the one asset. My daddy used to say, two things you're not making more of, time and dirt. That's it. And so if somebody gives you time, treat it with what it is worth, which is everything. We are so blessed to be able to make a living off of people who are willing to give us attention. And I will do everything I can to not squander that. If I'm tired, if I'm in a bad mood, if I'm having the worst day of my life, it doesn't matter. And I can't understand people who treat that with any sense of entitlement. Because it is a gift. It's just the volume of competition. They could be literally watching anybody else. And you have your direct competition, which would be like another wellness creator. Then you have indirect competition, which is just any creator on any social media app. And then you have high quality production competition, which is like all of Amazon Prime's content, all of Netflix. You've got the new season of Love Island. Yeah. House of Dragon just came out. That's why I'm here tonight. Wednesdays is their night off. Yeah. That's all the reason I'm doing the podcast. Hey, it's at night, but it's Wednesday. Love Island, we got caught up. Their night off. This is perfect. Thank God I don't have Paramount or Peacock or whatever the hell that's on. Which I don't get when people act entitled. Because not even like seeing it as a I'll take time out of my day because you give me your attention, so I'll give you this. I think that's the coolest ---- in the world. When someone recognizes you, it is the most validating thing ever. Like when someone recognizes you and takes the time to come up and say something. Because there's been so many times when I've been in public, seen someone, I'm like, oh, that's cool, that's so-and-so. Eh, they look busy, I'm not going to come up. So you know it's happening more. It is the coolest thing in the world. I don't know, it's just the validation you get from that of like, okay, what I do matters or makes a difference. Because a lot of what we do is on your own. You shoot on your own, you post on your own, you're thinking on your own. Like a lot of it is a lonely job in some cases. So when it's in the real world and actual interactions happen, it just hits you like, oh wow. Like it's not in my head, it's not on my phone, on this screen. I think it's the coolest freaking thing. Like if you're having a bad day, that'll cheer me up in an instant. When someone does it, I'm like, all right, that's pretty cool. What can be that bad? I'm not too cool to all, like I said this to you, I'm not too cool to admit that that's the coolest thing in the world. Yeah. I don't like when people think that that's the coolest thing in the world. Brush it off. I'm like, what is wrong with you? It is, I've gotten people that will DM me and be like, hey man, I saw you somewhere and I just didn't want to say hi. Please say hi. It is validating. Come give me a hug and a kiss. I'm not Leo DiCaprio. Kissing you is not gonna be pissing you. Yeah, exactly, exactly. How do you guys think about your content? Like health and wellness is a broad category, but it's also still a fairly niche. Do you feel like you are constantly saying the same things over and over again? I know you kind of gave me a little bit of an insight into how you plan your videos on the last episode, but you can talk about that as well. But is there a database of topics? Do you get tired of talking about certain things that you just know are gonna do well so you gotta do it anyway? How do you think about planning the content out? I want to hear what you have to say because I feel like Tony sits down on Monday and goes, Jarvis, drop me off here. He's like, here's what you got from last week, Sam. And I freaking wish, bro. No, I wish. It's, this is really funny because over the last three weeks I have had a little existential crisis, a little peak in time. I remember, this is creepy that you're asking this question. No, I've not fallen out of love. I've had a busy couple of weeks. And this always just happens. I usually need some time to recharge. I'm a little bit more, I'm like ambivert, but I need some introverted time to recharge and get it. And I've been out of town like five out of the last six weekends where my, I don't get it, Tony doesn't get any time. And usually that, I guess I didn't realize until now, is really important for my creativity. Like if I don't have that recharge time just to sit and be alone, the creativity battery just drops. How I normally do it is honestly, if you look at my text thread I have with my own cell phone number, just in my text, I'll have ideas in the middle of the night, on a car, whatever, and we'll just text it. And it will, if any human being read it, would make less than zero sense in the world. Like when I came up with my favorite video of all time, which was like the Diet Coke cigarette video. Yeah. Yeah, I don't even know. It said like cigarette rat Coke, like something in there. And I was like, I read it back. I'm like, oh, freak yeah, like I know exactly what I'm gonna do with this. It's a video about Diet Coke. Like it really makes no sense. But it's just, it's in the most weird times, and it's never when I'm trying, like I can't force it, I don't know. Maybe some people can. If I just sit down and think I need some ideas, I rarely come up with anything good, unless I'm trying to do, like I do an exercise called 100 Bad Ideas, where if I feel like I'm in a creative rut, I write a list of 100 and I'm not allowed to write down any content ideas until I come up with at least 100 bad ones first. I think too many people just won't let themselves think of bad ideas, and that's why they kind of limit their thinking, because sometimes the best ideas are right next to the bad ones. Like I literally think. They're almost like blocked. Yeah, I think I came up with, it was my favorite hook of all time, which was the Diet Coke video, where I start by talking about smoking cigarettes. I'm like, if you smoke a pack of cigarettes every day, it'll take seven to 10 years off your life. But if you just walk by some cigarette smoke on the street, it won't take even a second off of your life. I think that literally came because I had my bad idea. I'm like, what if I just started smoking cigarettes on screen? A stupid idea, but I was like, the worse idea, the better. I'm like, well, wait a second. Cigarettes are bad, but I could use that. It connects dots that don't really, or normally connect, I think. You have to allow yourself to have bad ideas, but it'll be the most random time of the day. I'll have things in my notes for months at a time, and then something will click months later, and I'll revisit it and be like, this is it. So there's no real structure or routine to it. It is kind of random, and that's just how I think my creativity I've learned works a little bit. Sounds like it's the same. It's eerily similar to what I just said. I think with a lot of creators, like true people where you do have to be creative. I could read over it, and that's where I was having this little dread is the last several weeks, I haven't had as much time to be creative with new ideas, so I've repolished different old ideas. And I'm pretty sure that stabbed a knife in my soul when I did that. I'm like, oh my God, I'm drained. I hate it. I was like, do I even love this? What's going on? And I just realized I just need a little bit more rest and time alone. But I think that's how real creativity works. You're just out there, and you have to go experience different things, and you can't force it. It just comes to you. But you have to put yourself in different scenarios that force your brain to open up. And that's when they just kind of get airdropped to you. I don't know. Airdrop's a good word for that. I described in our solo episode how I got an idea for my next podcast episode randomly in the middle of Travis's and I's conversation. And I told him, I was like, I'm telling you right now, I'm getting an idea. And then I showed him. I have a manic text thread too, but I also have 1,144 TikTok drafts that are just one-second videos with random words written on the screen so I can come back to the draft and make a video about it. And the words just are chicken scratch most of the time. But you know exactly what they mean. You know exactly what they mean. It's to your point, it's really important to remember, this is why I personally don't love the creator strategist of on Mondays I draft all of my ideas and then on Tuesdays I batch record and I do that every week. It's called content creation. In a way it is artistic cathartic expression. That's some videos are just, they're supposed to be fun. They're supposed to be creative outlets. And that's where I think the airdrop, the divine download is in. And so when I get an idea, whether it's in the middle of a podcast with you or sitting on my couch solitude I find very important. So the traveling was big. Walking long runs with no headphones. I just let, it's almost like my mind and our minds are filing cabinets that need to be sorted through. And you fill it with bullshit with doom scrolling and phone calls and emails. And you got to file it out before you get to the good stuff. Well I know, I don't want to take up too much of your time, bro, I know you got to get going to dinner. What time is it? Oh I do, I have to go. He's got to go run a marathon or something. I'm going to go eat a steak and drink some red wine. All right, bro. Thank you for having me, man. This was fun. Yeah, yeah. Bye guys. We'll do it again sometime. Catch you later. Yeah, bro.