Don’t Be Prey The 10-Year Battle to Reclaim a Life with Mark Sowerby.

You've got to have a good reason to do it. And ideally, for me, I like layering. I like the idea of having layers of reasons. And what I've found, when I get into those really difficult times, I start to literally, like a picture of a rolodex, the old rolodex, I'd be almost going through the files of all of the things in my life and trying to find something to grab onto that is the reason for this swim. And it's funny what matters to you at different times. So having one reason is probably not enough. It might be enough for one swim, but it's not enough for all of them. And so I had layers and layers of reasons. And, you know, sometimes it was that, you know, I wanted to rebuild my courage to go after some of the people that had done these things to us. So, you know, at some level there's justice and there's revenge, and I would picture them in my head and all that sort of stuff. But other times it was very personal or it might have been to, you know, for Heidi or the boys. And so I think having all those layers and then being able, in your own mind, to choose what's important to you on the day, not knowing what that's going to be, and it was funny. And you throw lines at yourself, so I throw lines at myself. So with the Cook Strait, it was, because I was really, you know, not fit enough for that one, is, you know, on the Ocean 7 list, it's got, you know, one remaining, two remaining, three remaining. If I got the Cook Strait done, I had one remaining. So it was just one remaining, because it's not as long a swim. But for the North Channel, it was, well, the thing that got me over in the end was I said to myself, because I knew it was a swimmable day, the only thing that stops you today is you. And once I owned the success or failure of the swim, it was like I dug in. So I took away all the excuses of other things that were going to stop me and decided the only thing that could stop me was me, and that wasn't going to be the thing that was going to stop me. What would drive someone to voluntarily swim through the most dangerous ocean channels on the planet, without a wetsuit, without a cage, and no way out except forward? Today's guest is Mark Sobe, one of the very few people to take on the Ocean 7, and just one of 36 swimmers to have completed it successfully, and is often described as the Everest of open-water swimming. In his new film, Don't Be Prey, it follows a decade-long pursuit across five continents and seven of the world's most brutal channels, from the freezing Irish Sea to the shark-patrolled waters of Hawaii. No wetsuit, no protection, just man versus Mother Nature. I've already seen the film, and honestly it's the best swimming film I've ever watched, not because of the distances or the danger, but because of what sits underneath it all. After a life-changing event, it leaves Mark searching for direction, and his coach Tim Denya helps him turn anguish into purpose. And the mantra becomes simple but critical, keep the stroke rate steady, don't splash, keep the heart rate down, don't be prey. And it's not just a story about survival in open water, it's about resilience, healing, and what happens when you commit to something so big it reshapes who you are. In this episode, we go behind the film, the swims that nearly broke him, the moments of doubt that no one sees, and what the ocean taught Mark about fear, patience, and staying calm when everything around you is chaos. Let's get into it. So, Mark, in 2015, you swam the English Channel, you raised $1.2 million for charity, and then it wasn't until seven years later that you did your next swim as part of the Ocean 7. So what led to wanting to do the Ocean 7? Yeah, so I'd heard about the Ocean 7 when I did the English Channel and thought that is something that I never want to do. And then I knew Lytton Mortensen a little bit as well, and he was the first Australian to complete the Ocean 7 and I think was seventh or eighth or something like that in the world, and everyone was racing to be the first from their country. And so I followed his journey. I suppose sometimes things in life don't go the way that you would hope, and we'd done the English Channel, I'd quit my work, and a bit under two years later, that company ended up being attacked in a very public short-selling campaign through Australia, and that ultimately led to that company being taken out. So as part of that process, I found that to be... It was quite a traumatic process, and I suppose the definition... I didn't see it coming. The definition of trauma really is that it happens suddenly and it's unexpected and it hurts. But I sort of thought I was... I thought I was a pretty resilient, tough guy. I was mid-40s by then, knew myself pretty well and had done the English Channel, had raised all that money, had built a really big company, and you learn a lot through that process. And then when it really came down to an awful event, I ended up falling in a heap, and that really lasted for a few years. So I ended up at one point, twice actually, sitting on what I call the burly bench at Burley Heads and looking out at the ocean and seriously considering swimming out. So when you get to that level of pain and suffering, I think clearly you need help, and the help for me came in the form of Tim Denyer, who was my English Channel coach, who popped in for half an hour, let's have a beer for Christmas on his way through because he's married to an Australian girl, and I know he was shocked at my condition and where I was at and ended up staying for seven hours in several coronas and through the course of that convinced me that the Ocean 7 would be a good purpose. Now, this was November 2019, so it's literally two or three months before COVID, so probably just as well. And so the line that Tim got me on was... I said, no, the English Channel was so hard, I didn't ever want to do that again and couldn't imagine doing swims that were harder, and particularly over what was going to be a multi-year project. And Tim said to me, I've never coached anyone to do the Ocean 7 before, why don't we do it together? So we did, and that's how it started. So back into training, and it takes quite a while to get a middle-aged man body moving again, and that gave me some purpose. Do you feel like him asking to do it together was something that really helped, like to have a teammate there, because for the most part it's a solo sport with all the training, but obviously it's a team thing with all of the trips over and your wife helping a lot and all that sort of stuff. Was it that that really sort of triggered things for you? Yeah, that was the winning line. Life's about winning moments, and Tim won that moment for me, really. And so I remember it vividly, and then sort of started to think, oh, my God, what have I committed... Then you sort of jump on the internet a bit more and start looking at it and reading the horror stories of shark attacks and jellyfish stings and intensive care units and all those things. But for sure it was Tim's. I mean, Tim and... I had a really great bond with Tim. I think Tim's a special human on many levels, and so it was a privilege to be asked. And it seemed... I suppose I understood that I needed something, and I'd been in a hole for a couple of years and it still wasn't over. And so I needed something else to grab onto. And then leading into that first swim, what was your headspace like? Were you thinking, like, this is doable, but it's going to be a real challenge, or were you doubting yourself going into that swim? How were you? So similar. I did apply myself really well, because I always... When I did the Trent Grimsey, he trained me for the English Channel, and he did a lot of Ks for Trent. So I did every single lap he told me to do at exactly the pace he told me to do it. I just figured that he would have a process that would get me fit enough, then Tim was the person that took me across. And so I followed... I was point and shoot, and same as this. I just figured that the only way to get across these big things, particularly not being a very good swimmer, was to follow the process and to be diligent. And that's not just on the physical side, but you're also trying to develop your mental side. Now, the Molokai Channel, I went straight to the stats, and in the year before COVID... It was just when I'd committed myself to these swims, because Molokai was first, which is a bit scary. So I think there were 17 attempts. Eight people didn't get across, four knocked out with jellyfish, and four knocked out with shark attacks. And then only two actually made it, so the rest were just exhaustion. So that's 45 Ks overnight through shark-infested waters, no shark cage or anything. And looking back at... In terms of the training, I trained well, but looking back at that swim, everyone says, oh, wow, that's so brave. But to be frank, it wasn't that brave in the sense... I suppose, to be brutally honest, I was still at that point that if I got eaten, I wouldn't have minded. So it was sort of like a false courage, because I didn't really care what happened. And the nice thing about the whole journey is that changes. But at that point, it was like, well, if I get taken, it's better than doing what I was thinking about doing, just swimming out from Burley. So, yeah, so along the way, we got fit again. And I was very lucky that a group down in Melbourne got me, Chloe McArdle organised for me to go on the U24 swim as training. And then, you know, the community is so amazing. Val Kalmakov stepped up out of the blue and said, look, you need to do something else before. Molokai said 10 days before he took me down the Derwent, even though he was heading home. And so we did a nine hours from down the Derwent, knocked over that 34Ks. And that got me ready physically and mentally for the Molokai challenge. And with the movie, so it sort of just fell into place where you had someone there filming the English Channel swim and then ultimately all the other swims as well. And that's how you're able to put together this documentary and this film. And did you feel extra pressure with having everything on camera? Did that add a certain element to the swims? It did for the English Channel. Like, I didn't want the documentary guy to be there, but we hadn't raised enough money. So that was very kind of him to do it for free and then to put together this sort of 41 minute, you know, YouTube English Channel film. And the script that day sort of played out pretty well. It was quite tight. And that's become a really good resource for English Channel swimmers to see actually how it all works and how you get fed and how it looks at the end and all those things. So that was just a gift. You know, this is an accident of history. And because it was so good, when I went back to Molokai, I knew no one had done an Ocean 7 documentary, but I didn't expect to get it done. So what we decided to do was rather, I think in these situations, it's better to keep the optionality open if it turned out, which is the way it's turned out. I can't imagine if I had to go back and swim it to get, it'd be no good. I'd probably get eaten. So, you know, I think you just Russian rule that out of Molokai. So I just got a local guy that the captain recommended just to film it and film us before and after and just to see, just in case I made it. And not really expecting to get across, but then we did. So then I went back to the documentary guy, Jeff Seng, who originally did it and said to him, can you come and film the rest and just to see what happens? And he said to me, but mate, swimming's so boring. You know, no one's going to want to watch this. I said, well, let's just film it and see what you think. And then after he saw Catalina and saw me jump in the dark in a great white breeding ground, and I don't think there's anything more primal for a human being that's seen Jaws or anything than to jump into the dark ocean in a great white breeding ground. He's like, this is nuts. No one's going to believe this. And then we just sort of rolled it out and we had no script. So everything was filmed as we went. There's not reenactments or anything. And then, of course, then he started to meet the other swimmers and the community, and that was what really grabbed him. And that's one thing that I noticed watching the film is, and you mentioned this to me when you allowed me to watch it. You said, like, it's not about me. It's about everyone else, and it certainly is. And I think anyone who's probably listened to this podcast is part of some swimming community, and there's so many different open-water groups all over the world, and they're really tight-knit. They've got this love for just being in the water, often cold water as well. But it really bonds people together. And when I think about a lot of my really good friends, it's come from swimming, because there's something about just putting in the hours and the Ks in the pool or in the open water that can bond you together in a very special sort of way. Yeah, and so on this sort of rehab journey that I was on, which is really what it was, I mean, there were layers to the Ocean 7 journey for me, and one of those was getting myself back to, you know, hopefully a better version, but also trying to rebuild my courage and various things. And there's nothing quite like those ocean swims to help you with that. But the turning point was the Gibraltar swim, and I had Bengi from Turkey and Jamie from Scotland and Paul from England, and obviously we had Tim with us as well, and so we got to swim that as a... you do that as a pot of four. And there's something about this group and the quality of those humans, their joy and their love of swimming, their excitement and the day we got and all the things that went with it that you suddenly can build a lifelong bond with someone that you're with for three or four days. Now, some of them were then... The Croatia swim camp that Tim had on afterwards, which was the cold-water swim camp, which I was there for the North Channel, because getting cold water in Australia is a bit challenging. So then I went to Croatia and met another 30 or 40 people, a lot of whom were coming into their first swim. But there's something beautiful about this group of people from all walks of life who don't care what you do or where you're from are all heading towards the same goal, the same experience, the openness and the joy and the... I don't know, there's like a happiness to people that are living out on the edge, a different happiness. It's like a self-discovery, you know, some level, I suppose, of pride in having the willingness to take on something that's really awful. And then there's the learnings that come as you do those things too. And with all of those swims, you mentioned the North Channel was the toughest swim that you did. Take me through the moment that you realised in the swim, like, this is going to be a long day out, this is going to be one of the big challenges. Well, I was pretty experienced by then. So the two toughest in... I mean, in terms of toughness, the English Channel was really tough because it was the first time I'd ever experienced that level of pain and suffering for that long. And it was cold enough back then, so it was sort of 15, 16 when I did it. It seems to have been a bit warmer in recent years. And then Molokai is obviously really, really long. It's dark, you know, swimming at night and you can feel sharks coming in and various stuff. So the big thing with Molokai, I found, was dealing with fear. But the North Channel's dealing with something altogether more horrible than that, and it's the cold. And I did a lot of cold water training. I was getting pretty good at it too. And I've been through that process, so I understood mentally how to deal with it. But you just never know when the cold's going to get you. And I knew I was in trouble with the cold two and a half hours in. Like, I'm two and a half hours in and going, oh, my God, I can feel this getting into me already. And I'm swimming... You know, you try and swim at a higher cadence to keep your warmth and all those things. And I thought, well, I've got 10 hours to go. How am I possibly going to get this done? And, you know, it was 11, 12 degrees when we got in. I think most of the day... I got a pretty good day as far as North Channels go, probably in the top quartile. It ended up being sort of 13, 14. We got some crazy weather at different times, but then it died down. I got stung, but not too much. It's from the lion's manes. And you can treat them like a bit of an electric shock and get me going again. But once that cold started to get into me, then my whole body started to really suffer. And, you know, that's the only swim I've really thought about getting out. At six and a half hours, halfway basically. And I just couldn't imagine finishing this thing at all. And then nine and a half hours was... By then it was... Six and a half hours looked good. So I just haven't experienced suffering like that, Brenton. I just can't... I can't explain, you know... I mean, I've had an accident since then. I broke my leg and blew my knee out. And that pain I'd never experienced before, but it was nowhere near as bad as every moment of the North Channel. You make it sound so appealing. Oh, my God. Yeah, but you learn so much. Like I've never been... The beauty of the North Channel and that experience is that it stripped me completely bare. And it's almost like when you're out in the ocean and suffering like that in every moment, that you get to look into your own soul and you get to see what's there, good or bad. And so in the end, Tim did a magnificent job of just getting to the next feed and doing different things mentally and physically and feeds. Heidi was there as well. And we eventually found a way across. What are some strategies that you either use that day or you've learnt along the way that's helping you, you know, to help you get through those tough situations? Well, you've got to have a good reason to do it. I can't... And ideally, for me, I like layering. I like the idea of having layers of reasons. And what I found, when I get into those really difficult times, I start to... Literally like a picture of a Rolodex, the old Rolodex, I'd be almost going through the files of all of the things in my life and trying to find something to grab onto that is the reason for this swim. And it's funny what matters to you at different times. So having one reason is probably not enough. It might be enough for one swim, but it's not enough for all of them. And so I had, you know, layers and layers of reasons. And, you know, sometimes it was that, you know, I wanted to rebuild my courage to go after some of the people that had done these things to us. So, you know, at some level, there's justice and there's revenge. And I would picture them in my head and all that sort of stuff. And all the... But other times, it was very personal or... And... Or it might have been to, you know, for Heidi or the boys. And so I think having all those layers and then being able in your own mind to choose what's important to you on the day, not knowing what that's going to be. And it was funny. And you throw lines at yourself. So I throw lines at myself. So with the Cook Strait, it was... Because I was really, you know, not fit enough for that one. As, you know, on the Ocean Seven list, it's got, you know, one remaining, two remaining, three remaining. If I got the Cook Strait done, I had one remaining. So it was just one remaining. Because it's not as long a swim. But for the North Channel, it was... Well, the thing that got me over in the end was I said to myself... Because I knew it was a swimmable day. The only thing that stops you today is you. And once I owned the success or failure of the swim, it was like I'd dug in. So I took away all the excuses of other things that were going to stop me and decided the only thing that could stop me was me and that wasn't going to be the thing that was going to stop me. Mm. I remember doing the Rottnest swim and I got cold about 13km in and I just said to myself, you're lucky to be here. You're lucky to be here. As in like, you know, it's fortunate that this is a problem that you've created for yourself. So it's like, yeah, there was just that line that I kept repeating to myself. You can solve that if you weren't so skinny. Like if you're, you know, one of my skills is staying fat. So... You're just not fat enough, Brenton. Well, next time. Yeah, hopefully there won't be a next time, you know. Well, I'll just like, I'll get better prepared, I think. That's right. More food. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's funny what goes through your mind in these tough situations. And I've found that even within difficult training sessions, you can tell that your mind is saying to you, it's like, you don't need to do this. It's like, you can get out. But if you can identify those thoughts and then go, well, actually, I don't need to listen to that. You can just let it fall by the wayside. Well, that's the power of it. That's been the power of it for me, is that when I was doing the two-hour training sessions and in the water and I didn't use music or anything else, I decided that I needed to be used to being in my own head. But being in my own head when I was in a really bad way was just an awful place. And so, you know, you're crying into your goggles sometimes. Like it's... And you're screaming at yourself. How can this be me? And how can this be my life? And how did these things happen to me? You know, what did I do to deserve this? And all the things that people do when they're in that sort of victim mentality. And I suppose that's where I think partly the beauty of the film comes in, is that don't be prey mentality, which is sort of, for me, was don't be a victim and take control of those things in your life that you can't take control of everything. And that's the other thing, I suppose, that the swims do, isn't it? Is that, you know, you control everything you can, your nutrition, everything else, but ultimately you have to sort of give yourself to the ocean and the day, not knowing what you're going to get and find a way across. So you get very comfortable with uncertainty, but in the face of knowing you've done the perfect preparation. Yeah, you have to allow the possibility of failure to happen because there's only so much you can do, isn't there? Just make sure you're not the reason. Yes, yeah. You don't pull yourself out of the water and all those sorts of things, which I nearly did even in the North Channel. With where that line came from, don't be prey, you were telling that story last night at dinner. And can you tell that story again? And I quite like how you used it on that swim as well, because I, yeah, I find that quite interesting. And I thought it was quite a good one. Well, there's a very famous lady, Dr Angela Yanagihira, who's the world expert in jellyfish, and she's a shark expert as well, and literally a mermaid. So Tim and I went to her house, and she's a professor at the University of Hawaii. And what she's famous for, amongst other things, is that she's developed a jellyfish cream for box jellyfish in particular for the Navy SEALs. So it was a seven-year project, she told us. And you can imagine with Navy SEALs, if they're doing an operation and they put this stuff around their necks, particularly so that they can breathe, if they get stung there, then they're dead, not from the jellyfish sting, but from people shooting them. And so she developed that, and we all used that in the Molokai channel, and it lasts about four hours, and it's certainly better than nothing. And it definitely, I was getting stung early, and it seemed to help. It definitely helped. So we're in her, her house is a lab too. She's one of those people, and she's got all these 20-litre sort of paint buckets everywhere full of dangerous, crazy creatures that she's getting venom out of and various other things. And then she gets this cheeky look on her face, and she says to Tim and I, she says, so boys, we need to talk about sharks. And, you know, see, Molokai channel is just chockers full of sharks. You're in 700 metres of water, there's sharks everywhere. And she said to us, boys, don't worry about it. There's going to be any sharks around when you're swimming. They'll be around you the entire time that you're out there. They'll just be there, and they'll know you're there. She said, so the only way you get across this thing is that you need to remember that you're a big ocean swimmer, which is what they call them. You're a big ocean swimmer. You belong out there. You need to keep your heart rate down, keep your stroke rate down, stay consistent, don't be prey. And there was just like this moment, like this light in my head exploded. I thought, oh, my God. And I realised that she'd literally changed my life because I straightaway flipped that to the problems that I was having and realised that I'd actually been prey. And so there was that layer for me. But also then she talked to us about, you know, how to keep your heart rate down and keeping your breath the same and really being consistent in the water, not sending off those signals that you're something that's worth eating. And so in the swim, so it happened twice at about – you know, you get a really good – the ocean was a washing machine, so we had a pretty rough night. And we're getting into the night, so we're three and a half hours in, and I feel this sort of swish next to me. And we've got the – so you've got a kayak, and it's got a shark shield on the front and back. The boat's 100 or 200 or 300 metres ahead of you because it attracts sharks, and it's just bobbing away. So the sharks are sort of around it. So it can't be near you until they feed you, then they sort of scoot out, come back and feed you, and then they take off again. So it's you and the kayak, and then you're out in the dark, and it's just got these few little red lights on the side, and it's just you in the middle of the ocean, literally in the middle of the Pacific. And so the way those shark shields work, obviously, it hits them on the nose. So the sharks might come in and have a sniff, and then if it hits them on the nose, they turn around really quickly and go away, and you can feel that swish. So I felt the swish. I thought, oh, wow, that's a shark, and I stayed really cool. But then at about four hours, and I know it was about four hours because I was feeling hungry. You know, you get into that routine of feeling hungry. And there's this big swish, and I thought it was the boat. And I hit the side of the kayak, and the kayak has gone, and I'm, what was that? I look up thinking it's the boat, and the boat's not there, and I'm like, oh, my God, what is next to me in the water here that is big enough to swish me that far across at two metres into the side of the kayak? And then I looked down, and there's like this box jellyfish that's avatar blue or something, and I thought, oh, my God. But I did all those things. Like I immediately applied Don't Be Prey, and all I had done since I'd seen Angel in that week since is thought about that, and my mind was perfect. Like I literally went back to the rhythm, kept my heart rate down and stayed cool and didn't send off any signals, and I survived. It's such a good metaphor for going through life as well, don't you think? Like it's just if you can keep that calmness about you no matter what situation's thrown at you, you're much better positioned to deal with it and react in the best way possible. Yeah, life's a lot about controlling our own minds, isn't it? And particularly in situations that are difficult, whether that can be lots of different things. And so I have found that very powerful. But Don't Be Prey for me, what I liked about it, it wasn't be a predator. It wasn't be aggressive and attack other people. It was just don't curl up in a ball, don't give up, don't allow things to happen to you. And there's this great line in the movie from Jen Schumacher. She says, you know, how do you make something work for you rather than against you? And so that's what you're trying to do is you're trying to turn what might be an enormous negative or appear like an enormous negative to you because it's always relative. We always think those things may be worse than they are. How do you turn that into a net positive? Life's not perfect. It's not black and white. So how do you make this the best that you can? And it's worked really well for me. For me, it's been life-changing from that one comment. Yeah. Well, and it's quite often if I reflect back on some of the things in my life that at the time where, you know, some of the toughest things I'd been through down the track, it's like, yeah, I actually could take that, learn from it, and that's actually become a positive thing. But it can be a challenge to recognize that at the time. Yeah, and mostly, you know, everyone says, oh, you know, it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, all that sort of stuff. And they're all nice lines. But no, but, you know, I wish these things had never happened to us. And I'm sure for almost everyone else in their life, they don't want those bad things to happen to them. But unfortunately, you cannot get through life without trauma. So how do you – and everyone has their own different trauma – so how do you do a better job of managing that trauma and preparing for it? And how do you make it so that the hole's not so deep you can't get out of it? And I ended up at the bottom of that hole. It's a long way out. It took me four years to get to some level of turning point. And what was that moment for you when you felt you had made that turn? I think probably the North Channel, post the North Channel. Cook Strait was also important. I felt like at the end of Cook Strait, I remember sitting on the boat and thinking that I'd sort of been rebuilt, which meant that Japan, which was my last of the seven – and Japan had had one out of 14 get across, which was Annie Donaldson the year before, and that doesn't count because he's special. So basically nobody got across. Nobody normal got across. So effectively it was 100% failure rate the year before. And so Japan felt much more about the process, the event, the swim preparation, doing things differently for this particular swim, the team, dealing with the uncertainty of whether the channel would let you across or not, being the last one, all those sorts of things. So it's not a spreadsheet. But certainly at the end of the North Channel, I think because I was stripped so bare and then didn't end up back on the burly bench. Like when I was in Catalina, I ended up in a really big hole. I got sick from the diesel fumes, which is just a rookie error by me. I got really sick but I was also worried about a bunch of things and I ended up spiralling down. I literally was begging for a great white to eat me. I just wanted to be gone. And I just would have thought it was a mercy killing. But when I got to that sort of level of pain in or beyond that in North Channel, I didn't go there. I only went to good things. Wow. Well, in the film, so Suguru straights the last swim. No spoilers. Okay. I won't reveal whether or not you made it. I don't get eaten, obviously. But for me, watching that was a really emotional part of the film. And I wouldn't say I'm an easy cry for a movie, but I'm also not a tough cry. But it just really stirred up some emotions. And I think it gives such a good insight into the actual things that someone like yourself goes through through The Ocean's Seven because I think only, what is it, 36 people have done it so far. You're the 29th. And I don't think you can – you can't grasp the challenges that you face and how difficult it really is. But for me, that gave me probably the best insight into what challenges you faced and then also having the team around you and what that feeling's like when you get to the end. To me, it felt like I was a bit of a part of that. Yeah. Well, everybody does. So that's the beauty of the film. Obviously, we didn't make it, so I did the swims and whatever else. And we got really lucky. Tim Daniel, my coach, had been in a documentary in 2005, 2006. That was a Channel 4, which is a UK documentary, and that documentary at the time was quite famous called Two Swimmers. And the guy that did that, that made that film, ended up being our editor. So he already knew Tim, understood Channels, but he is an Emmy Award-winning editor and writer as well. So he's world-class. And so where they've landed this thing is quite astonishing. And so documentaries don't go into cinemas anymore, but the distributors all want to put it into cinema, partly because obviously being part of the ocean and everything else, it's better on cinema, you know, in that cinema experience, but also because they think that if it gets the right marketing and the right push, that it could be one of the better documentaries that's been made in a long, long time. I think they've done a beautiful job. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And listening to this, somebody listening to this might think you have to be an extraordinary swimmer to get across these channels, but you told an interesting story about a good friend of yours, Olympian Michael Klimt, who gave you some coaching advice. Yeah, so I'm not a very good swimmer, and technically pretty awful, but obviously you build a bunch of skills to get across these swims, and so the swimming technique is part of that. But Klimt, before the English Channel, Klimt said to me, look, I really want to help you with your English Channel experience. Why don't we do a technical session down at my pool? So I went down, did an hour-and-a-half training session with him, and he said he was going to give me a couple of little tips, and we sat down for breakfast. And I said, so what have you got for me? He said, mate, we just need to find some rhythm. That was terrible. And so when I finished the English Channel, I was in Dover, and the phone rings, and it's Michael, and it drills into my head for 45 minutes because he's an Olympian and he wants to know what it was like mentally. It's a whole new experience. And at the end of it he says, he goes, well, mate, I just can't believe a swimmer as bad as you can get across the channel. Thank you. Thank you, Michael. But anyway, it's sort of true, actually. And there's a really good line. Part of the filming process is that you have to bring your kids on that journey, and ours are 21 and 23. And the eldest son, Lachlan, got to watch it, an early version, by himself with the film guys because they needed to show him some stuff that was a bit confronting. And I asked him, how would you describe the film? He said, that's easy, Dad. Ordinary people doing extraordinary things. I thought that was such a good line because there's obviously a lot of other swimmers that are in it as well. And so I think that's sort of a pretty good description of what it is. You sort of touched on it there, but what message would you hope that people take away from watching the film? Oh, there's a lot of layers to it. So I know where people are landing. So people are getting to the end of the film. And if they've been through trauma, then they understand the film and they're applying their own trauma to the experience that's depicted in the film, and it's the same. It's a metaphor, the swimming, really, for that journey. So for people with trauma, it gives them hope that it does end, actually. It does actually end, and that you can manage that through. And then for other people that haven't necessarily been through really difficult things yet, they're definitely landing at the end of this thing, and they're inspired to go and do something else. So they understand they don't need to be an Olympian or a national level swimmer or anything else to do something that can really change their lives, that is really interesting and can help them be a better version of themselves. So I think a lot of people that have seen this in sort of the focus group things have come out and they've gone back running and swimming. And not only that, they've picked something big to do. They haven't just said, I'm going to go down. They might do some bite-sized chunks, some little ones along the way, but they're thinking about something really big that can take them well outside their comfort zone, not just outside their comfort zone. And that's cool. Yeah, and that's the thing that a really good film or documentary can do is it can inspire that change and actually like booking in a big swim or a big run or just getting people to shift course on their life even a little bit by a few degrees. When I was talking to Geoff and Stephen, they said, what do you want to get out of the film? And I said, I want that someone who's done the English channel is sitting watching this with their family and that when the film ends, their family look at them and go, oh, my God, I had no idea. Now I understand what you've done. So there's sort of that. And that an ocean swimmer can watch it and they can go, that's what we go through. That's what it's like. And they've delivered that. It's very authentic. Definitely. I think every swimmer, I know every swimmer is going to love this movie, but it's probably any endurance sport. But it's mostly, I think, got more appeal to the general public. Everyone who's sitting there thinking that they can or should go and do something, I'm hoping that this will inspire them to actually go and do something. You've got to live, not exist. And the film, so you've got some dates coming up for UK and then Australia. Do you want to share those? Yeah, sure. So in the UK, we're going to go to the UK first. I think. And in fact, I found out today that we're going to kick off in Folkestone, where it all started. So we're going to kick off where the English Channel finished for me on the 4th of March. But we're doing advanced screenings around the UK. So I'm going to go to all those. I think this is like a holiday with purpose and then do Q&A. And then there's eventually the proper cinema release across the UK is on the 20th of March. I really wanted to respect Tim Denyer and all of the wonderful people in the Red Top Swimming Group by going there first. And so that's where we're going first. And then that will end. And then eventually it'll do all those things. But it takes a fair while to get to streaming other things. This is definitely a cinema movie, I think. And then Australia is Gold Coast Film Festival probably from the 22nd of April, but then into cinemas in Australia on the 7th of May and then through Asia. And then it's the Northern Hemisphere Festival season. So it's going to take a year and a half, two years. Big gap. It's great fun. I bet. Do you feel like this is a – I mean, obviously it's the next project, but like this is the thing that's really giving you purpose at the moment? You know, you've done the Ocean 7. Like is this – It's more like Jamie from Scotland said, the Swim's the celebration of all the work that you've done. This feels like a celebration, really. There's just only pure joy in this thing. And knowing that it's so good is really helpful. Like you're not going to – I haven't seen anyone come out of there from any walk of life and go, that was a bit crap. So it's so – and, you know, our boys are 21, 23, so they're no longer at home. So we're really in this unique situation where we can follow it and run with it and see where it takes us and meet. And then you get to meet the same people that we got to meet at Gibraltar in Croatia. So, you know, I can't tell you how excited I am about, you know, following this thing around. I'm sick of watching it. You've got to sign a word for word now. Yeah, but it's – no, it's a really – you know, it's going to be a really interesting journey. And so we're turning it like a channel in the sense that we're prepared for it, we've done everything we can, the movie's made, and now it'll go where it goes and it'll take us where it takes us and we don't mind where that is. We're very indifferent to where that lands. Just let it land where it lands. And so – but along the way there's going to be some really, really interesting people to meet. That's great. Well, as I said at the start, I really enjoyed the film. I think you've done – you and everyone who's worked on it has done such a great job firstly showing what you go through on those swims because I didn't fully grasp it, I don't think, even though I'm in the swimming world and I know a lot of people who have done it, I didn't fully grasp it. And then also just the – well, being so open and honest about where you were in that dark hole and then being able to come out of it and putting yourself through those swims to, you know, to really discover I guess who you truly are like deep down and being able to come to the other side of it was very inspiring. So it certainly moved me. There's nothing quite like knowing that you've got it in you and my personal experience from that is that that's now resonating across every aspect of my life. So my daily disciplines are better, my mindset's better. I have this place I go to called my Seven Ocean Soul that there's, you know, there's a song that takes me there as well that I use and it's like you need triggers. I think it helps your mind to get there. So, you know, if you get that and it ripples across every element, so you're better with your friends, you're better with your family, you understand how important the team were, you love them more, you appreciate things more and you don't let anything that's – I mean the noise is gone. I just can't tell you how beautiful it is. Well, I appreciate you coming all the way down to Torquay and doing this podcast. I was saying it was like this is the first actual in-person podcast. It's a bit sad. Yeah, after 400-something episodes. So sorry. No, no, it's great. It's much better to be able to do it in person. So, yeah, appreciate you making the trip and we'll have all the links in the description so people can follow this and hopefully get out there and watch the film because it was, yeah, amazing, an amazing one.