Chloe Malle isnt worried about backlash to her vision for American Vogue - Newsmakers

We had many conversations about whether in this moment of presidential hubris, we wanted to be celebrating America as the only thing we were celebrating. There are so many ways that we are being inundated with things that we should be paying attention to, and that's from TikTok to Instagram to our newsletters and our email. However, I actually think that makes Vogue's authority more important. I want that magazine to feel like something you want to keep. If I say Vogue, what comes to mind? A thick, glossy book filled with expensive clothes shot in exotic locations? The Met Gala? Madonna? The Devil Wears Prada? But at the end of the day, something your mom and her friends are into? How do you take that iconic brand into the future? That's the question Chloe Mal has to face as the new head of editorial content for American Vogue. Well, I just have to tell you, I have never been so nervous about what to wear to an interview. Oh, well, I love this suit. Well, thank you. It's such a beautiful color. Thank you, thank you. I know you have kids. When you drop off your kids, are they checking their outfit to be sure they're nervous? I think that they're checking my outfit, and so I feel pressure to be on point. When I'm dropping my kids off at school, I'm always going to work, but at a birthday party on the weekend, I do feel a certain pressure to look nice. So you've been in this chair for, what, a couple months now? You were named last fall. You actually started, what, February was like the first edition. You kind of got your hands around, right? It was announced the Tuesday after Labor Day last year, and I like that the announcement's effective immediately. So it's very much sort of hit the ground running, which I appreciated. And we had several exciting digital audio video projects that I was very involved with that rolled out throughout the fall and winter. And then my first print issue came out in February at the beginning of New York Fashion Week. This is the time of year when kids are graduating from college and they're trying to get that first job. So a lot of people want to know. I'm sure people ask you this. They certainly ask me this. How did you get that job? So how did you get that job? How did you get that job? How does one get into Vogue? I mean, it depends how far back we want to go, but I do think that some advice I always give young people if they ask. I try not to give advice if people don't ask. Well, I'm asking. How do you get that job? Not for me, because I'm asking for a friend. I believe strongly, because of how unexpected my career path for me has been, always take the meeting and always never have a preconceived notion about what you think makes sense for you or doesn't. And I began my career in journalism at the New York Observer in their newsroom. I was writing about real estate, the day-to-day transactions of New York City real estate. It was a great way to learn about the way power moves in New York, and it was such a great training for breaking news and what it was like working at a true New York institution. And then I was writing features for them, and I started writing, I went freelance, and I started writing for the New York Times style section. And I did a freelance piece for Vogue, and then I got a call that they were interviewing for a features editor for the magazine, what was then called a social editor, but had nothing to do with social media. It was someone who was editing the front of the book, the beginning of the magazine section, about weddings, parties, young people who are out and about, these sort of frothy, fun sections. Back in the day, that was the women's pages. Yes, exactly. I mean, just being honest, back in the day, in sort of general interest newspapers, that was the women's pages. So did you have any qualms about that? You're thinking, wait a minute, I'm a serious journalist, I'm not doing that? For sure. I thought, you know, I don't know that I want to be writing about parties all the time, and a section that's called Flash and opens with an it girl, is that what I want to be sinking my teeth into. And then I went to Vogue, and I interviewed with many people. I did two days of interviews, and I spoke to about eight or nine editors, and every single one was smarter, funnier, sharper than the next. And I thought, oh, this is a place I want to be, and these are people I want to be surrounded by. And I think there's, I take great joy in writing about weddings, editing books about weddings. I was a party reporter for many years, and I love writing party reports, because it's such a great way to describe a place, and what people care about, and who people are, is through, I mean, writing about being a fly on the wall for a charity gala, is, there's so many, that's what Tom Wolfe is made of. It's that kind of social observation that is some of the great writing. So I do think that you can find ways to be challenged and excited by things that might not be navigating the straight of her moves. But what's that for, though? I mean, a lot of people, you know, most people go to parties who never get written about, right? So people read that, and I don't know, is it like nose pressed against the glass? Like, what's the goal of that kind of reporting? Is it to, because I think a lot of people see it as kind of, you know, maybe now it's like personal branding, or something like people want to kind of be in the mix, or back in the day, maybe it was how you get a good match, marriage, or something like that, right? What's the goal of that kind of reporting? Well, I think for a place like the New York Observer, or for Vogue, it's about, this is what fashionable people are wearing, talking about, thinking about, donating their money for charities that they care about. This is, there is always a, I want to know what glamorous people are doing element to that, and seeing the photographs of what women, I mean, this has been historically from, you know, we can look at the Regency era, people are looking at, there have been illustrations of what women wear to events, and what they're doing there, and who they're talking to, and I think that it still is interesting to know. I still read event reports from writers that I trust. But you know those people, right? You kind of, didn't you kind of grow up in that milieu? I mean, you know a lot of those people, right? Yes, I don't think it's- So for people who don't know a lot of those people, and just to sort of get it out the way, for people who don't know, both of your parents are famous, right? Your mom's Candice Bergen, your dad's Louis Mall, he's, and they're both famous in their respective fields. So for you, was it like anthropology, or was it like sociology? Like, was it like, you know what I mean? For somebody like me, like my dad was a firefighter, and my mom worked in the store, she worked, actually she worked at Bloomingdale's, in the invoice office, right? For me, it would be like, huh, this is a world I do not know. Like, what's it all about? What's it like for somebody like you? Well, I think there's also different, that absolutely used to be true, maybe 50 years ago, that event reporting was one type of society event that was in a certain neighborhood in New York, it was a certain demographic of person. But now, it's fun to see, you know, on Vogue.com, we cover events around the world that support different ideas, that are celebrating different institutions, or moments in the calendar, and that is, feels oftentimes very different from the milieu I grew up in. And that's fun for me to be able to feel like I am in those places and seeing what they're doing. For example, we just were talking today about the Native Son Awards, is an organization that helps support and invest in young, not necessarily young, but queer Black men. And someone on our team is attending, and he said, I think it would be a great organization for us to cover their event. And that's not necessarily a milieu if I went that I would know everyone, but how fun that I get to look at those photos and see what people are wearing there. And what, and also for me, it becomes in my current job, sociological, because I get to say, oh, what designer are they choosing to buy? What are they wearing? What fashion is that, the group of people who are attending that event is going to be wearing and buying different things than the moms I'm going to see at my end of year preschool event. Preschool, dropout. So that kind of leads to a question I had about Vogue. When you were growing up, what was Vogue to you? Vogue to me, to be honest, my first relationship with Vogue was in college. And it was, I, the way that now there's certain magazines that arrive and I just can't wait to rip into them. I felt that way about Vogue in college. And that's because it has always been the fashion authority and a fashion publication, but I was always most impressed by how much more it was and the type of profiles it was doing, the people that it was highlighting, the stories it was telling and the breadth of those stories. But do you remember how you first encountered it? Was it something that was always around? I think my mother subscribed to Vogue, but I remember my first memory of Vogue, I don't know that I can tell you, but I do have very strong memories of buying it at the newsstand at the Amtrak station in Providence, Rhode Island. I would go back and forth to New York. Because I think like people my daughter's age, my daughter just graduated from college, Paula, they get their style cues from Instagram. And obviously Vogue is on Instagram, it's on a lot of these platforms. A lot of that due to you. But I don't know that they think of Vogue as like, I must go get that and see what's happening. It's so instantaneous now. It's TikTok, it's Instagram. It's like... What I will say is that that's absolutely true. And it's a very different calculus that goes into... It used to be Vogue would come out once a month, and that would be how you see what I should be wearing, what I should be buying, what trends came out of the fall fashion shows. Vogue is telling me the things I need to know because I might not be getting it elsewhere. Now, you cannot avoid it. Just on your phone, there are so many ways that we are being inundated with things that we should be paying attention to, according to the World Wide Web. And that's from TikTok to Instagram, to our newsletters and our email, to texts that we're getting from stores. Stores just started texting me. I thought, yeah, stop. However, I actually think that makes Vogue's authority more important. And I think that having so much noise coming at us all the time, there is a real need for an authority and an authenticity of... Vogue is telling us, sure, I've seen this type of scarf styling or bright color, color-blocking layering on all my Instagram feeds and in newsletters. Oh, but Vogue just did this editorial on it, and it's the best photographer and the best stylist, and it's the absolute chicest version of what that can be. That is what I'm going to think about. And that's confirming what I've been seeing everywhere else. But Vogue is saying it. And that's true for our cover and celebrity talent as well. A lot of people become famous through Instagram now from TikTok, and they can have a huge platform. But the minute that they have a Vogue cover, and that cover is shared with our 50 million plus followers, it's a different moment in their career and in how they are established in the way that they're public facing. The longtime iconic editor of Vogue, Anna Wintour, when you were first named to the role, said that you're not a fashion obsessive, right? Is there something you're obsessed by? Oh, there's a lot of things I'm obsessed by. I love fashion, and I think it's a really powerful, exciting way to communicate. And I love to see what people are wearing. I love getting dressed in the morning. I love seeing the new designers work and what people are doing. I am passionate about books. I'm passionate about film and theater and my family and art and food and my friends and people who make me laugh. That's a lot of things. So Vogue's got to be pretty thick then to carry all those, to include all those things. You know, you worked your way up at Vogue on a lot of different platforms. I mean, you're a social editor, as you just told us, you helped start the Run Through podcast, you were in charge of the website, and now the print magazine as well. So how do all those things fit together? I mean, you just mentioned, you've got like 17 things that you care about and that you love, and presumably the same is true of the ways that people will receive Vogue. So how are you going to prioritize all that? I don't know if it's about prioritizing, but it is about creating a holistic experience across the different platforms and ways that people are engaging with Vogue. And for me, I think about that as the print magazine remains for me the center of the bike wheel. And it's a way for us to really be clear with people who we are and what we stand for. And how lucky and exciting that in this moment in time, we now have spokes coming out of that bike wheel that speak to all of our different platforms and fan bases and can really engage people from podcasts to the app, which has its own exclusive content, to our YouTube videos, our social videos and TikTok series, the Vogue business, which is breaking news on Vogue, on fashion news all the time. We really have a place for everyone to come. And I want people to feel there is an entry point for any type of Vogue they may want. What do I call it now? When I was thinking about talking with you, I couldn't figure out what I should call it. Like, is it a magazine? Like, what is Vogue? I still call it a magazine because to me that means more than a print publication, but I like the word. We use brand a lot, but to me it feels too... Like toothpaste. ...corporate. And yeah, exactly. We're not Colgate. No offense to toothpaste. No offense to Colgate, but yes. But it feels like... But it's still the magazine? To me, it's the magazine, but it also may sound trite, but it's also a way of life and a way of telling people this is a variety of ways to think about fashionable living, gracious living. There was a longtime editor of Vogue, Edna Woman Chase, and she did an interview at the beginning of World War II, and they said, why is Vogue important right now? Why are you continuing to publish? And she said, Vogue is a publication for gracious living, and that is as important now as ever before, and people living in a way that is compassionate and thoughtful and makes them feel pride and reminds them what they are fighting for is as important as ever. And I think about moments like that and the idea that Vogue should be able to meet people in different places, and whether we call that a magazine or a brand, I think I just call it Vogue. But you know, I'm glad you brought that up because I think some people, maybe you agree with me, I don't think there is as much snobbery around fashion today in sort of just as something to talk about as there may have been even 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. Like I can be honest with you, like I remember being, as a journalist, I remember I was telling one of my colleagues this story that I was filling in for another host who loved baseball. He loved baseball so much that he actually took time off at one point to be a play-by-play announcer for the summer. So I was filling in for him, and I decided to do a show about fashion. And I got so much, I'm not sure what word I can correctly use here. What word can I use? I want to say crap from people, like not necessarily people in the building, but from listeners who are like, oh my God, how dare you? You're ruining his show. Like, what are you talking about this nonsense? And I thought some of it was sexist. I mean, that's girly, so it can be important. And I was like, excuse me, this is a major industry. It's certainly a major American industry. It's certainly a major international, it's a global thing. And presenting yourself into something is something human or something human in it. So I don't know that anybody would call up and say that today. Like, I don't know if in response to this conversation, anybody's going to say that. But we do, as a society, particularly because you're the editor of American Vogue, as a country, we are facing some really serious challenges. And I do wonder if anybody says to you, gee, why should I, as a thinking person, put energy into this right now? When there are many people, and I could argue people from different perspectives argue that really some of the fundamentals of our democracy are crumbling. And what would you say if someone were to say, look, I don't know that I, as a caring, thinking person, as an American, why should I put energy into that right now? Does anyone ever say that to you? And what do you say? I don't know if people say that to me, but it's certainly something we discuss internally at Vogue. And I think there are a few answers to the question for me personally. And one is, I think that joy is really important, no matter what the time. And I think that bringing joyful moments, moments of celebrating people we are inspired by, people we care about, people whose work is important, and moments that feel quirky and delightful and unexpected is really important. I would also say that Vogue is a huge platform and it is a very important endorsement and can be if used correctly. And for example, our summer issue, which is out right now, we made the choice a few months ago that we were going to make it our American issue. It was loosely timed to the 250th anniversary of the U.S. And we had many conversations about whether in this moment of presidential hubris, we wanted to be celebrating America as the only thing we were celebrating. Would that be what we wanted to focus on? And I felt very strongly that it was because there are so many Americans and facets of American life that are thrilling and inspiring and exciting, and that I wanted to be highlighting. And how amazing that we could dedicate an entire issue to doing that. And as you said before, the American fashion industry is a behemoth and it is a multi-billion dollar industry. And this was actually the first time that we, Vogue in its history, dedicated an entire issue to only featuring American designers. And that could be designers who were not born in America, but now have U.S.-based brands. It could also be Americans who now design at other brands overseas. So we were flexible with what that meant. It wasn't this didactic decree, but it was an important statement that we support this industry and we are here for American fashion, no matter what the moment in our political establishment we are. The other thing I noticed about the June issue is that it is the array of people and bodies is quite diverse. I mean, there are a lot of African-American and Hispanic models and figures, characters. I mean, it's based in Texas. There's one photo shoot that's based in Texas and an incredible array of people. There are three sort of featured models, all of whom were born in Texas, one of whom is Ruth Dang, who's of Sudanese heritage. Her parents came from Sudan. Both her parents came from Sudan and were, quote-unquote, lost children of Sudan separately and then found each other here. And she has six siblings who are all in the shoot and they were so amazing to cooperate with it because they all have jobs. And so it was a scheduling discussion of could we do it on a Saturday? And when we were planning this quite epic, sprawling, three-day shoot across Texas, photographed by Tyler Mitchell and styled by Carlos Nazario, we really wanted to photograph at Big Bend National Park. And it was at the moment when the government was threatening to build a wall in the middle of Big Bend and that the day we shot, photographed the editorial, that plan was pulled back. But it was, I mean, it was right around the time that we were doing it that that was no longer being pushed through. And it was very exciting, but also reminded us of the urgency of a lot of what we were doing and photographing. And was the idea that this might not be here anymore and might not be available for this purpose anymore? People might not experience it in the same way. We photographed a lot of this issue, actually, not a lot of it, but we were very conscious of photographing in national parks or public lands that are under threat. And I think that any reminder for people of the incredible public lands of this nation that are so under threat by this current administration is really powerful and important. And so for us, it was about what if this spectacular vista is no longer here? And we, because truly the Dang family, there's a photo of some of the sisters standing in the middle of this river and- Wearing incredible ball gowns. Wearing Rodarte ball gowns. I know, taffeta. In the middle of this river. But I'm also thinking about, look, I mean, I'm obviously African-American. I'm thinking about these are tall, willowy, dark-complected people whose physiology, whose bodies, whose heritage has not always been seen as beautiful and as worthy. And you are photographing them in very expensive gowns in this gorgeous place. And what you're saying is what? What are you saying by doing that? Ruth Dang, we should, Vogue should be so lucky as to have Ruth and her family in Vogue. And Ruth and her family, I felt so thrilled to be able to feature them. And that is what Vogue should be. That Texas shoot, which was such a wide variety of individuals who all have such fascinating personal stories and paths in their career and their personal lives. And being able to follow those different threads to me is what I would like Vogue to be representing. Gracious living, as I use the end of Wilma Chase quote again, even though it sounds old fashioned. But this idea of living beautifully, no matter what your circumstances or despite circumstances or because of circumstances that one, we can go back to the idea of uptown party reporting. That's not the Vogue that we're looking at today. You photographed of the part of the shoot was the marching band from Texas Southern. There was a gospel choir. There was an Escaramuza team, which for people who aren't familiar, it's basically like, I don't know how to describe, synchronized swimming at the rodeo. It's like female rodeo. Female rodeo, but synchronized. Yes. Rides with these fabulous outfits. And also like a, it was actually a Thursday night, like a sort of a dancing, dance hall. It was a dance hall. I think it was line dancing. I was just trying to think if it was. I guess I would call it line dancing. I don't know whether they call it that, but basically it's like, it was like everybody was there. It was like everybody was there. Yes. And so in a way is what you're saying is that graciousness comes in all forms. Yes. And also this goes outside of the Texas shoot, but to me, someone who really symbolizes the idea that I'm speaking to is now governor, Deb Haaland, who just won the primary in, I guess she's not governor yet. No, she's the Democratic nominee. She's the Democratic nominee for governor in New Mexico. She will be governor, but yes, you're right. Well, we don't, we're not in the prediction business. That's not our, that's not our job. Secretary Deb Haaland. Former Secretary of the Interior. The first Native American person to hold that role. We photographed her and her daughter Soma for this issue in New Mexico and also with a beautiful scenic vista of, you know, outside in the mountains. And she is someone who I have long looked to and been really inspired by the way that she uses fashion and style. To speak to who she is and what she cares about. And as you well know, style of Capitol Hill is sometimes constraining. There's a lot of quite boring skirt suits and Secretary Haaland somehow always managed to look completely, quote unquote, appropriate for whatever scenario she was in politically and yet incorporate the most beautiful, personal accessories, pieces, scarves that are either indigenous or just something that felt personal to her. And I feel that that is something that's underestimated about fashion is how powerful, how you present yourself can be. Well, I think that's one of the things that the former First Lady, Michelle Obama understood very clearly. I mean, she just published a book about some of her style choices. But speaking of the Obamas, we're also in a moment of backlash. I mean, it's very clear that some of the things that they brought to the White House, some of the people they brought to the White House were not received by other elements of the country. And it's almost like a visceral reaction to that. And I wonder if you ever wonder whether there will be a similar backlash to the kind of embrace of different kinds of graciousness that you're bringing to Vogue. I don't worry about that. I consistently, whenever I feel daunted or unsure about something, the only thing that I find to be a real through line for myself is to be authentic to what I care about and I'm inspired by. And I think that as long as Vogue is representing people that we really passionately believe in, then if some people don't like that, then that's a choice we've made. And your advertisers and the designers who want to present there and also many of the powerful people who would like to see themselves in Vogue. And what if they were, I don't want to be in the same magazine as X, Y, Z. Well, that's a shame for them. It's a tricky question for me to answer because I can't quite imagine. I don't feel that. I'm really proud of who we're featuring and what we're celebrating in our pages. And I think that our commercial and business partners will be as well. Well, you've already made some difficult decisions. I don't know if they're difficult for you, but they seem like difficult decisions just since you've been at the helm. You've decided to publish, what, two fewer editions every year. And I understand that the logic of it is that fewer editions, but make each one more of an event. But doesn't that feel like a loss in a way? For something that people were used to seeing monthly and then it already went down to, what, 10 editions, right, a year. And then you made the decision shortly after you arrived to take it down to eight editions. And I understand that the idea is there'll be thicker, bigger, but fewer. But doesn't that feel like a little bit of a loss in a way? I understand why some people might see it that way. More traditional media types. I personally think that it makes sense in this moment. And it's something exciting about the way that this moment is for media, which is that we can be sharing folks' content and journalism and fashion editorials all the time in so many different ways. And the print product is one of those ways. And as I said, it remains one of the most important brand totems. But I want that magazine to feel like something you want to keep. In the old days, people would receive magazines. They needed it once a month because that's how they got their news about the fashion world, the quote-unquote women's pages, as you say, what the trends were. They don't need that monthly anymore. They're getting it every day, every second on their phone. So these need to be special moments that are themed rather than monthly. So it's a spring fashion issue, a summer issue that's celebrating American narratives. And I want, if people buy Vogue in the airport, I want them to take it from the plane with them. I want them to think twice before they leave it on the airplane because this is something they want to keep. We have invested the money that we, the resources from the two issues that we are no longer publishing has been reallocated to making the paper thicker and the printing different so that it feels more like a collectible that you want to have on your coffee table. Well, just going back to an interview you did with Anna Wintour, again, the longtime editor who's now moved into sort of a different role, but you did a joint interview with her for the New York Times where you said, well, gee, if I had the kind of budget, you were asked this, if you had the same kind of budget that you had, that she had like back in the day, you'd pay your writers more. And she jumped in to say, look, our budget is still ample. I get that. But it does speak to a moment that a lot of us are experiencing who are part of legacy media, which is that, how do you keep attracting people into this field when people, can you earn a living? I mean, can you earn a living? Can you, could somebody follow your career? Could somebody replicate what you were able to achieve starting out freelancing and working for a newspaper and doing some freelancing on the side and kind of work your way up? Is that path still possible? Especially, is it still possible for somebody who isn't well-resourced, who doesn't maybe have something to fall back on? And I just wonder if you've thought about that, is there a way- I think about it a lot. Could a Chloe Marle from Queens make it today? I hope so. We have a lot of extremely talented, passionate young people on our team who are creating work that I'm really proud of. And they are excited to be working at Vogue and to be writing for Vogue and also to be working at a company that allows us to publish what we want to publish and follow our journalistic instincts and ethics. And that is exciting in this moment. And whether, if Chloe Marle were from Queens today, starting in the industry, whether that would mean she thinks about making some decisions about where she's living or what she's doing, or if she's doing some freelance work on the side, then I'm sure that that's a conversation people are having constantly. And look, it's absolutely different than it was 10, 15 years ago as a freelance journalist, but it's still an exciting time to be in media. And I think an important time to be in media. Well, it's certainly important, but I don't know, did you watch The Devil Wears Prada, the second one? I did. You see it? Well, you know, for a lot of journalists, that was like a documentary, right? It was like way too real for people because it opens, I don't want to ruin it for anybody who hasn't seen it yet, but it opens with the Anne Hathaway character having gone on to have a sort of distinguished career as an investigative journalist, the outlet that she works for, like everybody gets laid off, which is one of the ways she finds herself back at the magazine. And like I say, a lot of journalists and also people who appreciate journalism watch that with a lot of sadness because it's just too true. It's just too true. And I do wonder if you, you know, as a person who has been tasked with leading this publication, this entity into the next era, does it scare you in a way, just as you and I are speaking now, some very distinguished journalists have just either quit or been fired from institutions that many of us have looked to throughout our entire lives as like the beacon. And I just wondered, do you ever feel scared? Like, am I going to be able to keep this thing going so that I can then hand it off to the next Chloe Ma? I don't feel scared. I certainly think about the future and the dramatic shifts in the digital landscape and the media landscape. And I talk to colleagues I trust about that and what types of strategic shifts we should be making or planning and thinking ahead we should be doing. But I feel a great privilege to be a steward of this brand. And I think that Vogue's power is in the way that people trust it. And I think that we are at a moment where people want to trust individuals and also a media institution, a legacy media institution like Vogue. I think that actually, of course, I hear you in all of the examples you are giving, but I do think that we are at a moment where trusted legacy media brands can and should be more important than ever. Well, thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you for having me. I can't wait to see what you come up with. We've already seen so much from you. I can't wait to see what you come up with next. Well, thank you so much. Before I have to go, I do have to ask, though. You know, Anna Wintour was famous for the bob and the sunglasses. Like, do you have something you're going to be famous for? Oh, God. They're going to be like, oh, here she is with the... A smile. Oh, the smile? Well, of course, the smile. Okay. I'm Steve Inskeep. Thanks for watching NPR's Newsmakers.